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mishari26
04-12-2010, 05:30
Just wanna confirm what I think..

Hatred in the BRB is described as:

"A model striking a hated foe in close combat re-rolls all misses during the first round of combat."

And on p.82 the cavalry special rules exception says that special rules do not transfer from rider to mount or vice versa unless stated otherwise.

And in the DE book, p.55-56, all the DE mounts are listed without the "Eternal Hatred" special rule.

So does this mean that DE mounts don't get to reroll their misses?

Kalandros
04-12-2010, 05:36
Thats exactly right! Every mount and monster, except for the War Hydra, do not get to reroll misses.

Zentdiam
04-12-2010, 07:05
I am not at home right now, but doesn't the DE book say that their verson of hatred passes to mounts? I could be wrong on this and if I am then mishari26 is right.

mishari26
04-12-2010, 08:34
Ahhh yes. I thought there was something I was missing.. Zentdiam is correct, the rule for "Eternal Hatred" specifically includes mounts.

However, the DE book FAQ changes that..

Page 43 Eternal Hatred
Change [...]Dark Elves may[...] to [...]models with this
rule[...] Ignore the last sentence.

so I guess final verdict is they don't get Hatred.

Pacorko
04-12-2010, 08:43
No they don't. As far as I can remember, they never had.

Lord_Elric
04-12-2010, 10:11
Page 43 Eternal Hatred
Change [...]Dark Elves may[...] to [...]models with this
rule[...] Ignore the last sentence.

so I guess final verdict is they don't get Hatred.

yay lets make another frenzy thread.....

note it was changed from "DE may" to "models with" a CoK model is a single model with the eternal hatred rule so yeh if mounts gain frenzy because there a "model" then cold ones gain eternal hatred cus their "models"

mishari26
04-12-2010, 10:38
but what about the "Ignore the last sentence" bit?

the sentence they refer to is:
"Remember that Hatred also applies to mounts as long as their riders are alive."

So... since the Dark Steeds, Cold-ones, Manticores.. or what have you of DE mounts are all listed without the Eternal Hatred rule.. why would they receive Hatred??

changing "may" to "models with" doesn't seem related.. Yes Cold one Knight is listed as having "Eternal Hatred", but also the Cold One is listed separately as being without, so in this case, instead of having less information than we need, we have too much information. I don't see why we should throw away the extra info GW give us about the Cold one and blindly apply the "whole model gets it" argument.

Kalandros
04-12-2010, 22:10
yay lets make another frenzy thread.....

note it was changed from "DE may" to "models with" a CoK model is a single model with the eternal hatred rule so yeh if mounts gain frenzy because there a "model" then cold ones gain eternal hatred cus their "models"

Oh please stop doing that in every thread.

The entry is the Cold one Knight, the Cold One itself has a separate entry.

Thus only the Cold one Knight has Eternal Hatred, not the Cold One.

Go read the army book, its plain as day. There's no argument to be had any other way.

Palatine Katinka
05-12-2010, 00:42
No they don't. As far as I can rememeber, they never had.

Really? Last edition it was quite clear that the mounts got hatred too. However the core rules have changed and the clarifying sentence has been removed by an official ammendment so in this edition they clearly don't get hatred.

Kinda funny that Khorne Knights we're (for a while) gimped by a clarification that was not removed when a new edition came out but now Cold One Knights are gimped by a clarification getting removed when the new edition came out. No "army book takes precedence" for you Higgins! You've had yours!

Lord_Elric
05-12-2010, 04:10
Oh please stop doing that in every thread.

The entry is the Cold one Knight, the Cold One itself has a separate entry.

Thus only the Cold one Knight has Eternal Hatred, not the Cold One.

Go read the army book, its plain as day. There's no argument to be had any other way.

i would ask you to read a wiki article on sarcasm and get back to me please

mishari26
05-12-2010, 04:13
i would ask you to read a wiki article on sarcasm and get back to me please

in these angry and tense days of the internet, sarcasm is best accompanied by a clear disclaimer hehe ;)

Kalandros
05-12-2010, 04:58
i would ask you to read a wiki article on sarcasm and get back to me please

So you troll around and expect people to know exactly what you mean when your post is exactly the opposite of sarcasm?

Lord_Elric
05-12-2010, 12:19
well i assumed the "yay lets make another frenzy thread" would of set the tone really

Pacorko
06-12-2010, 02:59
Really? Last edition it was quite clear that the mounts got hatred too. However the core rules have changed and the clarifying sentence has been removed by an official ammendment so in this edition they clearly don't get hatred.

So the Cold One Knights have got Stupidity and Thick-skinned, too? After all, they are "one model", right? :rolleyes:

Sorry, it has always been pretty clear that Hatred was a thing the Riders got, as there are two separate, very specific entries on the profile which note two sets of special rules for each one of the two components of that "one model".

Trying to put it on the par with the Frenzy "controversy" is stretching it too far.

I'm only pointing this because the last edition (7th) uses the exact same Army Book as this one, and page 52 says nothing about the mount getting hatred. Besides it's the rules is just not plain Hatred. It's Eternal Hatred.

So, could you point me to the exact wording where this was so? Other than what's on the Army Book, of course.

Ravenar
06-12-2010, 03:11
It has been a few months since I threw it away, but I beleive the 7th ed FAQ is what transferred Eternal Hatred to the Cold Ones. Of course, that is last edition.

Pacorko
06-12-2010, 03:24
Oh, that might be all too possible and quite probably why I did not know about sucha thing. After I realized 7th edition was utter cack--quite early on, to be sincere--and then that most FAQs for 7th were powertrips to make certain armies even more "killy" in a tourney context, I just couldn't be bothered to check or care anymore, and just played as the ABs were written.

But thanks for the heads-up, Ravenar.

giant stegadon
06-12-2010, 04:25
I actually still have the 7th faq & it gives the mounts hatred in an answer. If someone is really interested I can type it out.

I wasn't saving it, I just haven't gotten a chance to play a game of 8th & still have a folder of several faq's.

Palatine Katinka
06-12-2010, 17:43
So the Cold One Knights have got Stupidity and Thick-skinned, too? After all, they are "one model", right? :rolleyes:

Ummm... No. That is not what I was getting at at all...


Sorry, it has always been pretty clear that Hatred was a thing the Riders got, as there are two separate, very specific entries on the profile which note two sets of special rules for each one of the two components of that "one model".

Yeah, but 7th did allow Hatred to affect mounts if the rider had Hatred. Note: I am not saying, and have never said, this is the case in 8th. I'm just reminding you that it did happen in 7th since you said you couldn't remember it ever happening.


Trying to put it on the par with the Frenzy "controversy" is stretching it too far.

I'm not trying to do that, I was merely pointing out that actually was the case in 7th. It has changed, I accept that. I don't try to deny that it ever happened though. I am not saying it is the case now.


I'm only pointing this because the last edition (7th) uses the exact same Army Book as this one, and page 52 says nothing about the mount getting hatred. Besides it's the rules is just not plain Hatred. It's Eternal Hatred.

From the army book, p43, Eternal Hatred, last sentence: "Remember that Hatred also applies to mounts as long as their riders are alive." The Update tells us in the Ammendments section to ignore this line as it no longer applies in 8th but it was the case in 7th.


So, could you point me to the exact wording where this was so? Other than what's on the Army Book, of course.

So, I'm not allowed to use the army book to prove my point? :eyebrows:

Just to be absolutely clear, in 8th edition Dark Elf mounts DO NOT get Hatred, any reference to it in their army book is a left over from 7th edition and no longer applies in 8th edition games.

Edit: Oh, and please don't put words into my mouth. I never said anything about the "one model" argument.

theorox
06-12-2010, 17:50
Clearly the rule doesn't transfer.

Transfer...can't be transferred...rule...mount...hmmm...does this sound familiar to you?

Theo

theunwantedbeing
06-12-2010, 19:14
No they don't get hatred, because the errata removes the bit in the eternal hatred rule where it states that the mounts get hatred as well.

As such, eternal hatred is just regular hatred.

Unlike in 7th ed where the 8th ed errata didn't exist to prevent it from transferring.
Also hatred did transfer in 7th, it doesn't in 8th (much like frenzy infact!...urgh).

Lord_Elric
06-12-2010, 23:29
actualy i piont you to the entry in the beastiary for cold one knights as all the special rules are listed in that page "including" all the rules for the cold ones themselves all the faq did was remove the reminder from the eternal hatred rule.

they purposefully "errated" the rule to change "dark elves" to "models" now a cold one knight is listed in a beastiary in FULL on page 52 of the DE army book

a cold one knight is a model therfore that model has hatred....

the only reason it previously required an faq was because the rule itself stated "dark elves" and its safe to say a cold one is not a dark elf.....

if the cold one knights entry stated (the rules for cold ones can be found on page xx) then i would concede my piont but it doesnt


as eternal hatred it now a "model" wide rule as per the errata it now also effects dragons and manticores too

Pacorko
06-12-2010, 23:44
So, I stand corrected... I played it wrong it seems. And NO ONE among my friends ever told me that it transferred to the mounts. :eyebrows:

Ah... those... those... those gits! :p

Lord_Elric
06-12-2010, 23:55
for a further strenthening of my piont the same goes for dark riders "fast cavalry" is not listed in the rules for dark steeds is it therfore if the OP was correct only the riders would have fast cavalry and not the mounts so as per fast cavalry rules they couldnt be fast cavalry

theunwantedbeing
07-12-2010, 00:05
In that case, boar boys get the tuskgor charge special rule.
So are strength 5 on the charge (boar boyz with spears are strength 7 on the charge).

There comes a point when you just have to take a step back and decide that GW write badly written rules and just read what they meant to say, and not what they actually did say.

Palatine Katinka
07-12-2010, 00:21
Well, this has rapidly spiralled into silly...

On the topic of DE mounts getting Hatred...
No, they don't get Hatred. It is clear in the Army Book which component has Eternal Hatred and which doesn't. The line in the Eternal Hatred entry that makes it unclear has been removed for the current edition.

Other points about units in other Army Books that are not as clear can be discussed in separate threads. ;)

@Pacorko Thanks for acknowledging that. ;)

AMWOOD co
07-12-2010, 03:25
for a further strenthening of my piont the same goes for dark riders "fast cavalry" is not listed in the rules for dark steeds is it therfore if the OP was correct only the riders would have fast cavalry and not the mounts so as per fast cavalry rules they couldnt be fast cavalry

Fast Cavalry was Erratad to be included among the rules for cavalry that if it exists on one part it exists on the whole. See the Rulebook FAQ reference, Errata for p82.

wingate32
07-07-2011, 10:08
So, according to these rules Squig Hoppers won't get the hatred because they are cavalry, right? But the Squigs in Squig herds get it right? How can I know that it's the Squig and not just the Gobbo that has hatred?

theunwantedbeing
07-07-2011, 12:54
So, according to these rules Squig Hoppers won't get the hatred because they are cavalry, right? But the Squigs in Squig herds get it right? How can I know that it's the Squig and not just the Gobbo that has hatred?

Only if it's just the goblin rider that gets it.
As far as I can see in the Orc&goblin book...both the rider and squig have hatred of dwarves so there is no issue.

Both have hatred against dwarves.

Tregar
07-07-2011, 13:34
It's a toughie, with Squigs. The rules for Squig Herds and Squig Hoppers do give Hatred (Dwarfs) to the unit, but Great Cave Squigs themselves do not have it. Vetock has made a mistake somewhere (either he intends for Squigs to hate dwarfs, or he doesn't, who knows which?)

wingate32
07-07-2011, 14:51
Only if it's just the goblin rider that gets it.
As far as I can see in the Orc&goblin book...both the rider and squig have hatred of dwarves so there is no issue.

Both have hatred against dwarves.

Well, since it's a cavalry model the rules isn't supposed to transfer. How can we know that it's the squig thats causing it? The giant cave and mangler squigs don't have hatred.

If the ruling is that squig hoppers have hatred I'm willing to claim that DE Cold Ones also have hatred.

The most resonable suggestion must be that Squigs in herds doesn't have hatred, only the Night Goblins in the units.

theunwantedbeing
07-07-2011, 15:18
Well, since it's a cavalry model the rules isn't supposed to transfer. How can we know that it's the squig thats causing it? The giant cave and mangler squigs don't have hatred.

Nothing in the rules says that the squigs in herder and hopper units don't have hatred.


If the ruling is that squig hoppers have hatred I'm willing to claim that DE Cold Ones also have hatred.
However there is an Errata that clearly removes the wording stating that the mounts also get hatred from the dark elf book. So it doesn't matter what happens with other armies, dark elves aren't getting hatred for their mounts unless the Main rulebook changes, or the DE errata does.
Hopefully the Dark Elf Errata will change and I can have my mounts with hatred back :)


The most resonable suggestion must be that Squigs in herds doesn't have hatred, only the Night Goblins in the units.
Well yes, that is what you'de expect.
It's a largely irrelevant question given that they only gain hatred against dwarves.

wingate32
07-07-2011, 15:28
In the rules for cavarly it clearly says that special rules don't apply to the mount. In both the case of Squig Hoppers and DE Cold One Knights they say that the model gets Hatred but in the case of DE the mount don't get hatred but in the O&G case the mounts (squigs) get it. I can't see any difference in the situations and therefore should the rules be the same.

I want to know what GWs intention is. Are Squigs supposed to have hatred or not? I say no the case of both the Herds and Hoppers if I read the rules correctly.

I'm not a stranger to "reading between the rules" but it would be nice to just get a nice consensus once in a while.