View Full Version : How far can a Lord of Change see into the future?

Chaplain of Chaos
04-12-2010, 22:42
Looking for information about what sort of power a lord of change has. In their 40k codex it says they can see into the "near" future.

Is that "near" in daemon terms so more like decades and centures? Or near in our terms, meaning a couple weeks or a few months?

Son of Sanguinius
04-12-2010, 22:57
The short answer is "however far the plot needs it to be able to see".

The long answer is that it's variable by each lord of change and more than likely changes constantly.

I like to think that rather than see exactly what is going to happen, the Lord of Changes predict events with extreme accuracy due to intricate knowledge of the psyches of individuals involved and superhuman intellects.

Chaplain of Chaos
05-12-2010, 00:17
I would think that their prescience would at least function with more certainty than a Farseers. Yet still that's me.

Farseers seem to be able to predict futures decades into the future.

05-12-2010, 00:23
Well not even Tzeench could see the whole future, he had to dip one in a weird pool to do it

EDIT: The phrasing on lexicanum implies that tzeench is the source of the false visions, and their vision seems to be limited to the extension of a war at least that's the way i interpret it

05-12-2010, 05:46
A normal Lord of Change can only see a finite number of possible futures (heck, not even Tzeentch can see them all, there's that many). It can trace certain paths and manipulate the mortal realm to follow those it wishes it to, but its designs can be screwed over. In 40k, there is no predetermined future for it to see. Just possible ones.

05-12-2010, 07:03
I'd say as far as the possible future goes till it hits a shadow point. But then again, being daemons of Tzeentch, they may be able to penetrate past these shadow points and see a far more complete view of the possible future.

05-12-2010, 12:46
As far as the Space Marines say they can see.

05-12-2010, 14:38
It can't.

It predicts the future, and with it's vast intellect can grasp a hold of the possible paths the future could take - but it doesn't know which path it will take, although it will try to manipulate events so that a particular future will occur.

Even Tzeentch himself doesn't know the path the future will take, albeit he'll do his darn best to ensure it's a path that favours himself.

Ork X
06-12-2010, 06:26
one billion years......

06-12-2010, 07:01
The way I see it, it's only actually prescience from the perspective of the material universe.

To a Daemon in the warp, time and space are non-existent, and one can gaze into the Warp to see the reflected echoes of other times and other places. Theoretically, any Daemon can see, from within the Warp, the residual effects of every moment in history and every event that may yet happen.

Which would allow them limitless power to observe the future, if they could do anything about it. A Daemon manifesting in reality is suddenly placed in a situation where it has a physical perspective, a set place in space and time, which would be intensely disorienting for a creature composed of coalesced emotion which lacks any form or sense of spatial/temporal reference naturally. Imagine waking up one morning to find that every physical law you know and understand is a lie... and you'll be part of the way there. The end result is that a manifest daemon is only a fragment of the entity that it is within the Warp, only really able to focus on the now (because, in the Warp, there is only now - past and present and future are meaningless there) and the overwhelming nature of having physical sensation when normally such a thing is impossible for them.

More powerful Daemons can acclimatise to this more easily, more able to make sense of themselves and their knowledge from the perspective of a single creature within a single point in space, subject to linear time, but even then, it takes effort and concentration and power to do this, an act of memory or one of reaching back into the Warp to observe, rather than the more natural passive observation that would occur in the Warp (all events influence the eternal now of the Warp; you don't need to remember anything if every moment of existence is freeze-framed and displayed for all to see). There then comes the issue of comprehension - the linear progression of cause and effect are not natural things for a Warp entity, and consequently putting those glimpsed events in the right order and understanding what they mean is not an easy matter.

In short, a Lord of Change could, hypothetically, see every moment of every possible existence... but it wouldn't necessarily understand how they all fit together, and if placed in the material world, it has to work on memory, a feat more-or-less equivalent to rebuilding the contents of the internet from memory using only binary. The smarter (or perhaps more lucid) the Daemon, the more it can achieve in this regard.

06-12-2010, 08:13
I don't buy all this malarky about superhuman intelects and statistical projection. They're *******' daemons of the god of MAGIC, of COURSE it's supernatural hooey!

Frankly, I don't think typical Lords of Change can see as Accurately as Farseers. The problem with Chaos is that it's often self-defeating and Tzeench is as likely to show you the correct future as the wrong one. Eldar Seers on the other hand are autonomous from the master of change and are somewhat protected against his influence.

Son of Sanguinius
07-12-2010, 02:12
I don't buy all this malarky about superhuman intelects and statistical projection. They're *******' daemons of the god of MAGIC, of COURSE it's supernatural hooey!

Nothing says the warp and science can't coexist. :D

I'm sure one hundred years ago the thought of the internet would have seemed equally preposterous.

Kiras of the flame
07-12-2010, 05:19
I believe that only Kairos Fateweaver can only look into the future... In fact Even their own master cannot see into the future (it has been stated... hence Kairos' creation)

Chaplain of Chaos
07-12-2010, 06:23
Eldar Seers on the other hand are autonomous from the master of change and are somewhat protected against his influence.

Oh how quaint... Farseers independent of Tzeentch. Don't you know that it remains "All According to Plan"?


Honestly I've never really thought about it from a Daemon perspective.

No wonder you would want to kill the crap out of all those fleshy pieces of meat. You want so hard to be part of the material world as you are composed over the emotional energy generated from that world.

I think we have to acknowledge that they can see into the future in a pretty solid sense. It might be picking among possible futures and guiding things to that end but it's not just random speculation.

Any intelligent human can make plausible guesses. I simply don't buy that a Lord of Change is making a plausible guess, they must have some real knowledge of that future event from the way it is worded in their codex.

Fateweaver is unique in that he does actually know EXACTLY what is going to happen.

07-12-2010, 08:14
Oh how quaint... Farseers independent of Tzeentch. Don't you know that it remains "All According to Plan"?

Of course it is. The Farseers' plan. After all, Eldrad could see to the end of the Eldar race (and the end of Slaanesh) and guided events to that course. Even postponed his own death to complete his plan (whatever it might have been)

After all, Tzeench is a slave to his own nature and will foil himself. Farseers have no such failings.

or it could be Creed.... CREEEEEEED!!!

07-12-2010, 09:01
The funny thing about looking in to time is that Daemons, when they're in the material world, are also a part of it. They can either see the future very well by staying in the Warp(Which has non-linear time), or they can affect the future by stepping in to the material universe.

And when you step in to the material universe, every action you take causes ripples and counter-effects. To a Daemon, it's like predicting the waves on the ocean by staring at them in an effort to navigate the best possible way. Unfortunately, when they drop their boat in the water, the drag of the water and the ripples can continue to knock them far off course.

So Daemons can see pretty far in the future. How well they are at affecting it depends on their skill, power and intellect.

07-12-2010, 10:22
Lets see. Were are talking about a Chaos creature able to foresee future. As much as earlier fluff can be relied upon expecting any consistence over Chaos or foreseeing future is futile.

Chaos doesn't do consistence.