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The Inevitable One
05-12-2010, 07:55
Threads like this are common… ok… really common, but I wanted to get everyone’s perspective on the matter at this present time.

After reading threads and posts about the Squats, whether in a joking manner or a serious one, I had the sudden urge to want a futuristic dwarven army. But alas, there is no such thing. It didn’t help when I watched Lord of the Rings or look at the Fantasy Dwarfs one bit, but I thought there still might be hope for the resurrection of the Squats.

After reading an e-mail from Jervis Johnson regarding why the Squats were tossed out, I found out it wasn’t because of sales, but because the whole dwarven archetype in a futuristic setting wasn't working out as planned. Because of that they were subsequently thrown into the dark abyss of the Tyranid stomach. Recently though a few pieces of artwork and lore pops up about the Demiurg here and there. Demiurg Brotherhood's teaming up with Tau, fighting along side with the Imperial Navy, and what not. Apparently this is a sort of ‘reboot’ for the Squats and to be honest I am pleased. Very old news to say the least, but my main point of posting this thread was, since they have conceived another concept for ‘Space Dwarves’ will they put it into motion and pump out models and a codex for them?

What do you guys think is going to happen or at the very least, what would you like to happen?


(I understand that Games Workshop had quite a few things on its plate so far, but this is just a speculation thread in the hopes that it will eventually happen)

Simo429
05-12-2010, 08:02
Just incase you are interested on the blog I write on 'see in my sig' there is a lad writing his own squat codex.

AlexHolker
05-12-2010, 08:44
The Space Dwarves should stay dead, but there are aspects that can be recycled. A human world whose PDF is equipped with refitted mining equipment, for example, is a sound concept.

You could even represent it with the Space Marine codex, with surveyors in anti-grav vehicles (Scouts in Land Speeder Storms) spotting for their heavy hitters: sonic cannon-wielding rock pulverizers (Vindicators) and Termites full of exo-suit wearing stormtroopers (Space Marines in Drop Pods)

TheRatsInTheWalls
05-12-2010, 08:55
I very strongly doubt that you'll be seeing new squat models any time soon. You would best serve those compulsions by converting up your own. I don't quite get the desire to squash the notion in general but GW really should spend their energies elsewhere. They can't even properly support their current range of armies.

TimLeeson
05-12-2010, 09:12
I think Demiurg should be inserted into the Tau Empire and given equal amount of models/support as the Kroot, but I dont want another humanoid-alien codex as theres far too many as it is.

Hendarion
05-12-2010, 09:19
I dont want another humanoid-alien codex as theres far too many as it is.
Truly. 40k needs more true aliens!

TheLaughingGod
05-12-2010, 09:36
Truly. 40k needs more true aliens!
Thyrrus or Q'orl maybe.

Born Again
05-12-2010, 09:45
I really doubt you'll see Demiurg as a stand alone army any time soon, and Squats are long, long gone apart from a veiled reference now and then (Codex Orks mentions the abhuman inhabitants of Golgotha). I'm personally hoping (and think there is a real chance) we'll see them as a new unit in the next Tau book. TBH I didn't really have a problem with the Squats at the time they were around, but can see why they wanted to remove them. A Dwarf archetype that isn't literally Dwarves in Space is a much better way of doing things.

The Inevitable One
05-12-2010, 10:08
I think Demiurg should be inserted into the Tau Empire and given equal amount of models/support as the Kroot, but I dont want another humanoid-alien codex as theres far too many as it is.
Truly. 40k needs more true aliens!

Now that I think about it, I agree whole-heartedly as well. Not every game has to have the same elements, so if the Demiurg are not be released in the form of models and rules, I understand.

Hendarion
05-12-2010, 10:23
Well, that doesn't mean Demiurg in Tau-Codex would be uncool. But a stand-alone-Codex isn't the way to go imo.

Ace Rimmer
05-12-2010, 12:28
I only moved to 2nd ed 40k when they wrote my 14,000 point squat army out of epic, bastardo's!

LonelyPath
05-12-2010, 13:29
Having their own codex would be a bit much since the race was all but entirely eaten, but allies in another codex (like the aforementioned Tau) would work well. Another option is to field them using the Imperial Guard codex if you have enough of the old models for a full army (and Hasslefree Miniatures produce the Grymm, a race of space dwarfs (yep, dwarfs is the correct plural of dwarf)).

neko
05-12-2010, 13:41
The thing I liked most about squats was that they were a branch of humanity who had managed to successfully break away from the Imperium without signing up to chaos in the process.
Personally I wouldn't care if they're physically short, but I would like to see the return of independant human/abhuman factions, and if they were nomadic too, so much the better!

susu.exp
05-12-2010, 14:46
Well, search this forum for the Varyngr. There´s a rather good fan-codex by Hellebore, a gigantic tread on background - the last page has hellebores background pdfs, another one based on the work by MadDoc (and slightly adapted by me) is here (http://post-neo.com/Varyngr/varyngr.htm) and there are pics of my Varyngr army in the same folder.

The Demiurg are another take on the Dwarf Archetype (Xisor has done some work there). Whether there´ll be Demiurg in the next Tau Codex is an open question as of now - there are BFG ships. If you want to play Space Dwarfs, convert or use alternative ranges and please try out the Hellebore Dex and give some playtest feedback.

TimLeeson
06-12-2010, 03:38
Well, that doesn't mean Demiurg in Tau-Codex would be uncool. But a stand-alone-Codex isn't the way to go imo.

Yeah, I think it could work with Tau-Empire quite well. I could see a couple of plastic kits (basic troops + some kind of laser-drill as one kit, the other being a larger heavy weapon) and a few metal kits and blisters and thats all you need really. They could easily have all-demiurg armies with a special-character too.


Truly. 40k needs more true aliens!

Indeed, it's my biggest pet-peeve really. Dont get me wrong though as Necrons and Dark Eldar are my favourites (with models), but im dying for some actual variety. They should add Enslavers, Barghesi (as shoggoth type things), Chaos Aliens and Hrud/Umbra IMO.

Born Again
06-12-2010, 04:34
Having their own codex would be a bit much since the racist was all but entirely eaten

I know racism is bad, but getting eaten for it seems a little drastic! :p

solkan
06-12-2010, 05:03
There were so many problems with the Squats...

1. The GW people at the time said several times that they just couldn't come up with anything beyond the 'dwarven bikers' schtick.

2. Too much positivism for 40K. The rest of humanity was in confused disarray, and these guys still had their technology.

3. Confusion over whether they were supposed to be a subordinate meta-human race or their own race. It's the same problem that the Beastmen and Halflings ran into.

4. 3rd Edition removed one of their stat differences between normal humans: M4.

5. There's the whole rest of the background screaming "Die, mutant, die!" and there's the deviant human offshoot, the Squats, that the Imperium isn't crushing. :wtf:

Gmaleron
06-12-2010, 05:09
Dont know very much about the squats but i just cannot see them in a 40k setting. I do think they need to come out with another non imperium race but dont think Squats should be it.

Chem-Dog
06-12-2010, 06:03
The thing I liked most about squats was that they were a branch of humanity who had managed to successfully break away from the Imperium without signing up to chaos in the process.

No! The Squats were well and truly aligned with the Imperium.


There were so many problems with the Squats...

1. The GW people at the time said several times that they just couldn't come up with anything beyond the 'dwarven bikers' schtick.

There were several disparate groups, but that said, it works for the Dark Eldar.


2. Too much positivism for 40K. The rest of humanity was in confused disarray, and these guys still had their technology.

That's easily solved, it's not like the Dwarf archetype would be damaged by an isolationist attitude, or millennia long blood feuds and vendettas (Will-not-use-the-G-word)


3. Confusion over whether they were supposed to be a subordinate meta-human race or their own race. It's the same problem that the Beastmen and Halflings ran into.

Difference is Halflings and Beastmen were only really ever presented as additional exotic options for Imperials, Squats had their own culture and separate lists.
Again I don't think, if given a virtually blank sheet, the games designers would hit too many snags on this front.


4. 3rd Edition removed one of their stat differences between normal humans: M4.

In modern 40K it's a total non issue. Gretchin (as a random example off the top of my head) have much shorter legs than Marines but suffer no movement penalty by comparison.


5. There's the whole rest of the background screaming "Die, mutant, die!" and there's the deviant human offshoot, the Squats, that the Imperium isn't crushing. :wtf:

You could, if you wanted to, argue that the Squats are entirely human.

I've been fairly Anti Squat in the last decade or so, but this is largely because I have access to their army list and can see how poor the selection of troops were back then. The list basically consists of:-
Lord
Hearthguard (Dwarf Terminators)
Living Ancestors (Very old, hyper-psychic Dwarfs)
Guild Engineers
Warrior Brotherhoods
Bikers.

BUT if they were given a complete do-over from head to toe (Either as a new xenos species or a non imperial human off-shoot) I believe they could be a positive addition to the 40K rolecall. If sufficiently separated from the Dwarfs-in-space problems that they had, because of all the species that RT had featured, the Squads did worst for having their own defining character in 40K.

So Demiurg, Squats, whatever, bring it on.

Abaraxas
06-12-2010, 06:24
What isnt cool about them? Theyre DWARVES IN SPACE!!! :confused:

Dunno if its just me but Ive always found dwarves to be one of GWs best ranges and it saddens me the space beardies were written out of the "story"

Whatever theyre called, reintroducing 40k dwarves would be great (I think) be it Demiurg in a Tau Codex or Squats in an IG codex and of course the miniatures to go with them.

With the crazy amount of super heavies and vehichles around now Id wager if hell did indeed freeze over GW could come up with more than just exo armour and bikes for Squats second time around...

Anyway, rather than new races Im more for the existing ones getting more love more often both codex and miniature range.

Bergen Beerbelly
06-12-2010, 08:40
They could come up with plenty of super heavys and vehicles for the squats. They already did for Epic Squats. They had:

Iron Eagle Gyrocoptors: Its basically a Vendetta type skimmer with two autocannons and a Battlecannon. It could be linked to a super heavy
Colossus so the Colossus could fire it's barrage weapons using the Iron Eagle Gyrocoptors line of sight if it wished.

Rhino: obviously because they were allied with the Imperium

Mole: A huge tunneling vehicle that wasn't a super heavy but it went underground for movement and could pop up anywhere. They could also hold 50 men!

Termite: A smaller version of the Mole that could hold 10 men.

Thunderfire Cannon: a large immobile (except it could pivot)three barreled anti-aircraft gun.

Then they had super heavies that were massive machines that could take on titans and stand a chance of winning. They just bristled with weapons. they were named:

Colossus: lots of missiles and cannons

Cyclops: (It's main weapon is a starship cannon with a mobile chassis built around it)

Leviathan: produced in mass for the Imperium but also used by the squats. Basically it has lots of lascannons, battlecannons and a very large doomsday cannon. It can carry 150 squats.

Land Train: Basically a train that didn't need tracks. It has battlecars that could hold troops, rad bombs, gigantic flamers, and gigantic mortars.

Goliath Mega Cannon: Basically it is a HUGE super heavy howitzer

Overlord Armored Airship: Its a dirigible that has an ingenious self sealing balloon and drops bombs and has six battle cannons and a bunch of auto cannons.

Abaraxas
06-12-2010, 09:12
Thats a bit more than exo armour and trikes :p

Earthbeard
06-12-2010, 12:09
To be fair, comparing the older units to Tau/Necrons, doesn't seem like they had too few :P

x-esiv-4c
06-12-2010, 12:42
For GW to bring them into the current "Grimdarkness" the squats would have to be emaciated, gaunt in stance and perhaps have globs of guyliner smeared in. They would have to turn in their biker beards (which are clearly not grimdark) for floppy emo hair.

The fact is that the RT incarnation of Squats was perfect for that period of 40k, when things were just a dash more silly. Recent revisions have shown an elimination of humor. If the same amount of time and effort was put in to revise the Squats as was done with the Eldar, we'd still have them running around shooting things with unnecessarily big guns.

doghouse
06-12-2010, 15:34
I think the biggest downfall of the squats was the decision to turn them into hells angels. The multi-part plastics were brilliant and have stood the test of time well, with the exception of the weapons they are really nice models even by todays standards.

The irony of the space dwarves is that forty kay was originally intended to be true sci-fi but at the time it was considered too risky because all the money was in fantasy which is why we ended up with space elves, dwarves and orcs.

I think with a decent rewrite they could be really good and I'd love to see them return. I think that we may well see others races creeping into the game as allies for some races in future. The Dark Elder codex is an excellent example of this and I can see more coming in with any new Tau codex that will come in time.

Easy E
06-12-2010, 18:26
Anyway, rather than new races Im more for the existing ones getting more love more often both codex and miniature range.

Personally, I think they tinker with Codexes and rules too much.

Is it just me, or is the forced obscelescence prevalent in Western culture just frakkin' annoying?

As for Squats, they are still right where they left them. In 2nd Edition. If you want to bring them to 5th nothing is stopping you. It just takes time and love.

Also, Doghouse is spot on about the old box set. Put some of the early 3rd edition efforts to shame (I'm looking at you Catachans!).

neko
06-12-2010, 23:19
The thing I liked most about squats was that they were a branch of humanity who had managed to successfully break away from the Imperium without signing up to chaos in the process.

No! The Squats were well and truly aligned with the Imperium.
That's like saying that the US haven't managed to break away from the UK purely because we still tend to be allies.

If there's any WTF to be had from the situation, it's why the Imperium are still willing to ally with the Squats despite them having broken away. It just doesn't fit with the mindset of the Imperium.

solkan
06-12-2010, 23:28
No! The Squats were well and truly aligned with the Imperium.

There were enough fluff and background pieces detailing where the Squats WERE NOT sharing technology with the Imperium to counter that claim.


Difference is Halflings and Beastmen were only really ever presented as additional exotic options for Imperials, Squats had their own culture and separate lists.
Again I don't think, if given a virtually blank sheet, the games designers would hit too many snags on this front.

So, the designers go away, completely redo the Squats into something completely different, and that actually works with the background. The problem is that if they did that, it'll have about as much in common with the old Squat background as Coke Classic and New Coke had in common.

So the bring out the New Squats, people complain that they aren't like the Old Squats, and the designers are left wondering why they even bothered. Because, unlike the Dark Eldar until recently, the Squats have a background (that's why people keep asking for them), and that very same background doesn't work.


You could, if you wanted to, argue that the Squats are entirely human.

See, that's the entire problem. If the Squats are human, then they're an aberrant and deviant human offshoot. Unusually short, stocky humans who venerate their ancestors instead of the Emperor = Heretics!. So, as mutants and heretics, that leaves the Empire, as represented in the background, with the automatic need to crush them as a matter of practice. I don't remember seeing any "Embrace the Mutant as your friend!" quotes in ANY of the rulebooks. :skull:

And if they're not humans, then see the standing Imperial policy for safely trading with alien cultures. That is, from orbit using battle cruisers to impart the Emperor's Grace.

Chem-Dog
07-12-2010, 00:56
....They already did for Epic Squats.

Thats a bit more than exo armour and trikes :p

In Epic yeah, just about everything other than the Rhino mentioned in the list was Epic and most of it would be silly big in regular 40K. Apoc only for most of it, some of those vehicles were intended to be reasonable opponants for Titans.


That's like saying that the US haven't managed to break away from the UK purely because we still tend to be allies.

If there's any WTF to be had from the situation, it's why the Imperium are still willing to ally with the Squats despite them having broken away. It just doesn't fit with the mindset of the Imperium.

Ok, bad language on my part. The squats didn't break away, they were rediscovered as an offshoot and certain treaties were put in place to create an alliance of sorts.
Unfortunately (or not, depending on your point of view) this doesn't tie in well with the Imperium's expansion as explained at a later date, the Squats would have had to have been incredibly powerful to have retained sovereignty in the face of the Great Crusade.


There were enough fluff and background pieces detailing where the Squats WERE NOT sharing technology with the Imperium to counter that claim.

Of course, the Adeptus Mechanicus shares everything it knows with the rest of the Imperium. As do the Ecclesiarchy as do the Astartes as do the......Need I continue? :p ;)




So, the designers go away, completely redo the Squats into something completely different, and that actually works with the background. The problem is that if they did that, it'll have about as much in common with the old Squat background as Coke Classic and New Coke had in common.

That analogy is a little lost on me I'm afraid. The point is, if they got built from the ground up Now issues that would arrise from their old fluff could be averted and their miniatures could be a little more compelling that a dwarf lord armed with a bolt pistol. Keep the G words, keep the code of honour and then expand so that they are equipped with unique weapons and maybe something the Imperium doesn't like (like thinking machines).


So the bring out the New Squats, people complain that they aren't like the Old Squats, and the designers are left wondering why they even bothered. Because, unlike the Dark Eldar until recently, the Squats have a background (that's why people keep asking for them), and that very same background doesn't work.

Not necessarily, scrub their "friendship" with the Imperium, make them AT BEST neigbours that don't see eye to eye and you've got basically all you need to fit the Squats in with 40k now. Personally, as I think I've said, Squats need a lot of development to be a convincing faction.
Of course the danger of viewing the Squats in comparison with anything else in 40K is that (with the exception of a few of the newer races) they've had something like 20 years of expansion.


See, that's the entire problem. If the Squats are human, then they're an aberrant and deviant human offshoot. Unusually short, stocky humans who venerate their ancestors instead of the Emperor = Heretics!. So, as mutants and heretics, that leaves the Empire, as represented in the background, with the automatic need to crush them as a matter of practice. I don't remember seeing any "Embrace the Mutant as your friend!" quotes in ANY of the rulebooks. :skull:

That's been my point all along, whilst hating the mutant is a significant part of Imperial doctrine from the Emperor's decree onwards, it's not without more modern examples of leniency.
The Imperium has to strike a happy medium and pick it's fights, if they were able to CRUSH the stunties then why haven't they Crushed the Orks, Eldar or Tau?
Perhaps the Squats are quite happy in their own little enclave and don't make too much of a nuisance of themselves (or are even a convenient bulwark), perhaps there is an understanding between the two factions because of their shared heritage (there's a useful piece of handwavium in 40K when considering the Imperium. The exceptions and pressidents set by the Emperor himself. See: Rogue Traders), it doen't mean that every individual in each camp is going to like it, rebellious squat rulers, ecclesiarchy representatives with an axe to grind ect, but if the Imperium can survive the innumerable blue on blue incidents various parts of it can inflict on others, I'm sure it can survive a few skirmishes with curmudgeonly beards.

If GW can shoe-horn the Necrons, Dark Eldar and Tau into 40K, I don't see any problem with fitting a re-imagined Squat species/race/faction in.

Bergen Beerbelly
07-12-2010, 01:35
The Squats were very powerful. The Imperium actually started wars with them in the days of the Great Crusade but after Genetors found out they are actually humans that just adapted to living on the denser worlds at the core of the galaxy, they decided it would be better to start trade negotiations with them instead.

If they had decided to put Squats back in the game then they could have easily used some of the vehicles and devices from Epic. And they wouldn't be Apocalypse only.

Rhino's, as the Squats have the STC for them.

Iron Eagle Gyrocoptors, as the Vendetta is almost the same thing.

Termites, A vehicle that moves underground and carries ten guys.

Robots, so the Squats don't have to waste precious lives.

Thunderfire Cannons, these would be immobile like the Drop Pods but could swivel and hit skimmers easier too.

Tarantula's, basically twin linked heavy weapons like the Imperial Guard employ

Thudd Guns, Sort of like a mortar that fires 4 shots

Mole Mortars, a mortar that shoots underground and could blow up above a unit, on a unit or below them (causing the unit to get stuck in the resulting crater)

Rapier Laser Destroyer, sort of like a quad las cannon only with a lower strength.

And of course the bikes and heavy weapon trikes, and the Exo Armored Squats on Bikes with Lances.

The Squats tech was so far ahead of the Imperium that the Technomagi of the Adeptus Mechanicus believe that the Squats have already learned the secrets of stable warp fission, by which the energy of Warp Space is flared off to produce limitless supplies of energy.

They also produced the most advanced form of propulsion for spacecraft:" a neoplasma reactor powered by a warp-core held in thrall by a containment field of zero-energy. No other race has ever replicated this drive mechanism, the Adeptus Mechanicus having given up their experiments with warp-core technology ever since the infamous Contagion of Ganymede."

Their tech level, combined with treaties with the Imperium have kept the Squats free of Imperial control.

I don't see how any of the Squat background goes against the Imperium's "kill them, they're not human!" bs. After all, they let the Ogryns and Ratlings live.

Hellebore
07-12-2010, 01:37
If GW can shoe-horn the Necrons, Dark Eldar and Tau into 40K, I don't see any problem with fitting a re-imagined Squat species/race/faction in.

Absolutely and has been proven countless times across the internet. There are many fan codicies out there. Ironmonger is making one that is a pure update, bringing the original squats to 5th ed. There are several others out there that redesign them with their own weaponry etc.

The death of the squats thread has several permeatations on there as well.

The Core of the galaxy is pretty much empty of activity in current 40k. This is because the distribution of forces and factions in the galaxy was designed when there WERE squats, so removing them also removed a large chunk of stuff from the map.

For my part I just played up the black holes and strange physics found at the centre of the galaxy and had it difficult to traverse. The Varyngr (squats) however know all the secret pathways and so can live within the core with little effort. Coupled with the Dead Trench, a massive swathe of destroyed star systems surrounding the core and it allows the varyngr to live on with less interference.

The joining of the Imperium with the varyngr still happens but the reason it was so lenient was due to the expense of trying to navigate the core. But the Heresy throws this into disarray and the Varyngr secede from the Imperium entirely during Vandire's Reign of Blood. His anti mutant policies and crazy sisters of battle presented a real threat to the Varyngr.

This then goes on until the infiltration of genestealer cults and the coming of a swarm fleet. For some irony I infer that had the varyngr not defeated the tyranid swarms, the Imperium would have encountered the tyranids enmass far earlier. The Varyngr are the reason Kraken and Behemoth came in from the galactic edge and when that failed Leviathan tried the galactic plane, just not the core. So just as the eastern fringe forced the tyranids to change tactics, the Core caused them to change tactics first.


Anyway, there are plenty of ways that you can introduce or reintroduce factions into 40k. Almost anything can be made to fit if it's written properly.

EDIT: Hell, just look at the current marine and blood angel codicies for examples of already ESTABLISHED fluff being written improperly so that it doesn't fit into 40k... :eyebrows:

Hellebore

Olja
07-12-2010, 02:25
Couldn't Forgeworld at least put out some limited range of them just to see if they sell? If they don't sell GW can feel justified in killing them off and any time somebody starts one of these threads one can write "You had your chance to buy them". Let the market decide this argument.

I for one hope Forgeworld never makes them. I would have to sell crack to buy them. ;)

EDIT: just now noticed the poll for a Forgeworld book.

scarletsquig
07-12-2010, 04:55
I very strongly doubt that you'll be seeing new squat models any time soon.

Mantic Games are releasing plastic Squats next year.. they've already done Chaos Dwarves and Squats are the next thing they will be doing with the basic dwarf moulds they already have.

Even if GW isn't going there, doesn't mean other companies won't. There is clearly a lot of demand and a lot of money to be made.

TheRatsInTheWalls
07-12-2010, 05:16
Personally, I think they tinker with Codexes and rules too much.

Is it just me, or is the forced obscelescence prevalent in Western culture just frakkin' annoying?
...

You make something of a good point here. The trouble is that they haven't gotten the rules right yet. Once they actually have functional and balanced codices, I think the gamer community would be okay with a slow-down. Until then, the only way to keep the game balanced is more books, and quickly. Also, you don't see too many model releases without books (more recently).


...
See, that's the entire problem. If the Squats are human, then they're an aberrant and deviant human offshoot. Unusually short, stocky humans who venerate their ancestors instead of the Emperor = Heretics!. So, as mutants and heretics, that leaves the Empire, as represented in the background, with the automatic need to crush them as a matter of practice. I don't remember seeing any "Embrace the Mutant as your friend!" quotes in ANY of the rulebooks. :skull:

And if they're not humans, then see the standing Imperial policy for safely trading with alien cultures. That is, from orbit using battle cruisers to impart the Emperor's Grace.

The Imperium has never made allowances for short humans? http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440248a&prodId=prod2010019

solkan
07-12-2010, 08:01
Bergen Beerbelly, that the list of technologies that you listed off was a few fan fictions short of "They have everything that the Imperium had lost, and they have beer". How is that supposed to fit into the modern GrimDarkness?

TheRatsInTheWalls, so you want the Ratling treatment or the Ogryn treatment for the Squats, getting reduced to one stereotypical unit? :eyebrows: Somehow I don't see an unusually short techpriest model making anyone happy.

Cheeslord
07-12-2010, 12:07
Just adding my opinion because this thread seems to have many naysayers.

I would love it if the Squats came back. I wouldn't even mind if they were still called Squats (or even Dwarves, though i'm sure GW would only accept a name they could trademark for legal reasons), which everyone seems to have but I personally prefer to Demiurge or Varyngyr. I would not complain about masses of hairy bikers, or exo-armour that doesn't look like it should be able to walk.

I would like it if they had more unique weapons they had developed themselves after initial contact was lost rather than mainly STC stuff that the Imperium has anyway, with a mining / tunnel warfare feel to it. But I generally just like the Dwarves.

Mark.

Bergen Beerbelly
07-12-2010, 17:53
Solkan, A better question...How does it NOT fit? Everyone keeps running around saying it has to be Grimdark...Guess what...There's nothing "Grimdark" about the Tau. And they fit just fine.

There are a lot of people that could care less about the "Grimdark" aspect of this game. Some people want to play it because it does represent a futuristic wargame. Not because it's grimdark.

Personally I like the Squats because the "Grimdark" feel of the rest of the 40k universe is way too over the top.

I see the Imperium as so over the top "Grimdark" that it's a wonder they all haven't commited suicide by now. Human nature would not allow something like the Imperium to exist for long without changing it for the better.

Squats to me are a light in an otherwise dark and dreary universe. They don't put up with the Imperium's BS or anyone elses. They know the Technomagi of the Adeptus Mechanicus are crazy. They know the Imperium is ruled by the most evil humans in the history of humanity and they want nothing to do with it. And they have the coolest tech I've seen in the game.

Chem-Dog
07-12-2010, 18:30
There's nothing "Grimdark" about the Tau. And they fit just fine.

Hmm, lets see.
Fistly the whole shtick of "Innocence lost" that surrounds the Tau, they are emerging into a galaxy that's full of forces that wish to destroy them because they're in the way/they exist/there was nothing better to do at that moment in time.
They've been screwed over by branches of the Imperium, Chaos Space Marines of various types, Dark Eldar and so on...

Secondly there's the whole "greater good" concept which, when reading between the lines reveals Join us or die or even Our way is right, yours is wrong. join us or be destroyed. Just as unremitting as the Imperium, just equal opportunities unremitting.

Finally, there's Farsight. Disillusioned former hero who has taken to setting up camp with loyal warriors seperate from and now reviled by those he once served.

So yeah, the Tau are an idealist regime that has already started to creep into the territory of "Well intentioned extremist", it fears, suppresses and destroys those who do not accept their ideals.



I see the Imperium as so over the top "Grimdark" that it's a wonder they all haven't commited suicide by now. Human nature would not allow something like the Imperium to exist for long without changing it for the better.

This is wrong. Human nature allows exactly this kind of situation to occur time and time again, the Imperium is like it is because the few hold the power and the many are kept down by oppression and poverty. Admittedly it's not necessarily the way it was intended but nor is it entirely un heard of.



At the risk of repeating myself and in the attempt to clarify.
Squats need a few tweaks fluff wise to bring them in line with current fluff, their own character will be more than enough to make them fit into 40K's general setting, we just need a viable way to have existed 10k years or so without having joined or been erradicated by the Imperium.
Squats carry the Dwarf staples of honour and vendetta, that in itself is enough to lubricate their insertion into 40K, add in a willingness to trade freely (with the races they don't hate) and a nomadic existance that sees them pass through all kinds of territories and you've got enough reason for conflict with any faction of the 40K universe.

SgtTaters
07-12-2010, 18:42
I see the problem as the squats have no niche to fill

stubbornness, heavy armor and artillery? That's the Imperial Guard. Super Stubborness and short ranged devastating weapons? Sisters. The Imperium covers all archetypoes that squats would have. They would either be t4 guardsmen, or space marines with s3. Squats are just a kind of mutant, like a ratling or an ogryn. That already makes them less distinct than utterly alien Eldar and Orks.


Squats carry the Dwarf staples of honour and vendetta
But Space Marines take that even further with numerous rules that show each chapter's Zeal. Dwarves have their niche in Fantasy because Chaos Warriors aren't quite shooty enough and Empire not quite stubborn enough to take over their niche.




There's nothing "Grimdark" about the Tau. And they fit just fine.
The way I see it, Tau are a canvas for Grimdark things to happen to them. They get liquefied by Necrons, om nom'd by Tyranids, flayed by Dark Eldar, and an ancient empire of beings that can shoot lightning from their heads and worship a corpse want to destroy them.

The day they start making spiderskull walkers with skull faced fire warriors and giant death's head skull faced transports is the day Tau become Grimdark lol

Ironmonger
07-12-2010, 18:50
As for Squats, they are still right where they left them. In 2nd Edition. If you want to bring them to 5th nothing is stopping you. It just takes time and love.

Also, Doghouse is spot on about the old box set. Put some of the early 3rd edition efforts to shame (I'm looking at you Catachans!).

Yep. Those boxes of 36 multi-part plastics were amazing, especially at the time. I still have 1 1/2, always looking for more.

Oh, and: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249445

That's just mine, but a head over to Rules Development will show how alive and kicking the 'Space Dwarfs' are.;)

Bergen Beerbelly
07-12-2010, 18:55
@Chem-Dog. Notice I said that humans wouldn't allow it for long. I didn't say it doesn't happen. But ten thousand years of it and someone would have done something.

GW already gave a reason as to why they (Squats) existed for 10k years without becoming a part of the imperium or eradicating them.

The Squats are at the center of the Galaxy by a Warp Rift known as the Maelstrom. The reason the Imperium doesn't try to exterminate them is because the Squats keep a very close eye on the Maelstrom just like Cadia does on the Eye of Terror. They keep the Chaos forces from attacking out through the Maelstrom in force.

The technology the Squats have from the Dark Age of Technology is still used and they will use it to stop Chaos. So the Imperium sees them as a buffer against Chaos incursion.

Chem-Dog
08-12-2010, 00:40
Ok I'll swallow that, the Maelstrom is a high traffic area and perhaps the Astra lClaws/Red Corsairs may be a more significant problem if the stunties weren't about. Also gives the Squats plenty of scope for disgruntled-ment at various Space Marine Chapters..
Also separates the Imperium sufficiently from the Squats so that they can't really be considered allies, the Squats are just the significantly lesser of two evils (no pun intended :shifty: ).

solkan
08-12-2010, 05:57
After rereading the Squats description and background in the Rogue Trader Compendium, the greatest sin committed is that there are no character flaws or defects described.

The following are some of the crimes committed by the Squats against the GrimDark:

Crime #1: In an era of technological decline and mysticism, the Squats have free minded engineers who had held onto many of the old STC's. The Squats were guilty of technological progress and hope.

Crime #2: As others have pointed out, their 40K army list overlapped significantly with the Imperial Guard at the time. The Squats were guilty of conflicting with another army concept.

Crime #3: Mutant off-shoots of humanity co-existing as equals. The Ogryn don't co-exist as equals, and the Ratlings don't, either. The Squats were guilty of causing the Imperium to appear capable of being nice or reasonable.

What else could the GrimDark do but execute the Squats and use the Tyranids to carry out that execution? I just don't accept that anyone who keeps asking for the Squats back would actually want the GrimDark'd version.

Abaraxas
08-12-2010, 06:19
Well they only move 3 and they dont really own much territory (present tense because theyre still around :mad:) like fantasy dwarves and elves and eldar theyre a race verging on extinction holding onto ancient technologies/magiks that keep them powerful enough to keep on keeping on.

I admire anybody that has a decent 1500 or so points of Squats-thats a hard slog if you dont already own them from back in the day.
Id love to collect a squat army-but after collecting enough arms and weapons to complete my 5000 pts + of RT/2nd Orks I think Ill just settle for a thunderer squad to ally with my Space Wolves,because squats with lasguns are relatively numerous and dont require the bloody plastic arms!

Seems a bit extreme to eliminate them in the first place-a squad and champion upgrade entry in an Imperial Guard codex could have been a happy medium :)

TheRatsInTheWalls
08-12-2010, 07:27
...
TheRatsInTheWalls, so you want the Ratling treatment or the Ogryn treatment for the Squats, getting reduced to one stereotypical unit? :eyebrows: Somehow I don't see an unusually short techpriest model making anyone happy.

I think you missed my point. There is a precedent for the Imperium accepting smaller, rounded ab-humans without killing them all. Therefore, the issue with the usual "die mutant! die!" foreign policy doesn't need to stop squats from coming out.
I'd hate short techpriests as much as everyone else.

Abaraxas
08-12-2010, 08:35
Astropaths arent exterminated-theyre extremely valuable, and at least tolerated.

Consider the ancient technology Squats still retain and the race on a whole not exactly into expansion, and couple that with the Squats sharing if not surpassing the Imperiums hatred of Orks and any other non imperial army at the time (and wouldnt like the newer races either) I dont find it far fetched that the home worlds and other squat interests would be spared the kil kil kil treatment,perhaps an unexpected,independent yet in the end welcome bastion-the galaxy is in flames and the Imperium just barely scrapes by...the astartes serve the Imperium because they honour ancient oaths to the Emperor himself, they are autonomous and pretty much do what they want when they want,which thankfully is to smash the enemies of the Imperium as much as possible-in 2nd at least it was strongly indicated that if a chapter of marines decided it wanted to take its bat and ball and go home early the Imperium isnt exactly in a position to take them to task about it without another, huger crisis than the huge crisis they are already in.
Thats why I dont see any problem with the Imperium not taking out an extermination on the Squats.

Hellebore
08-12-2010, 09:03
Consider also the vast area they cover. The Imperium can't even exterminate the Tau, in an area less than 1/10th this size. Why would they be able to do it to the Squats? Consider also that the Core of the galaxy is inhospitable and the squats had spent at least 10,000 years prior to the great crusade aclimatising to it and developing technologies to live there. To everyone else it's pretty useless.

Hellebore

MarcoSkoll
08-12-2010, 09:23
I think we need to define the difference between "Mutants" and "Abhumans" here.

Abhumans are sub-species of humanity. Mutants are deviant from the normal traits of their species.
Both are usually downtrodded to various degrees, but the former is usually tolerated, and the latter is generally doomed to a life as a slave - or quite often, death.
(Minor mutations may be tolerated, provided their owner is powerful enough - I could see a noble getting away with polydactyly or such.)

So, abhumans have evolved by a gradual process into what they are, and (unless I'm forgetting something) are always humanoid, if proportioned a bit differently.
With mutants, there was some dramatic and unpredictable change at some point in their ancestry, a major trait that was not inherited from their parents - be that one or several (hundred) generations back.

Ogryns, Ratlings and Squats are abhumans.
Navigators, Psykers and people with tentacles for fingers are mutants. (Although Navigators are now sort of their own sub-species, it started with a mutation and their third eye means they are no longer topologically humanoid.)

Wishing
08-12-2010, 12:02
Personally I'm all for new space dwarves, done in a suitably cool/fresh way. While they may not be on their way anytime soon, I presume GW are keeping the Demiurg around in the background in case they ever decide to explore the concept again - and if they do, I'm sure it will be a big surprise release thing. :)

Inquisitor_Tolheim
08-12-2010, 16:20
If the Demiurg are brought back, I'd like them to be re-imagined into an alien race rather then just "space dwarves". Something cool, a race more concerned with technology then war, way ahead of everyone else in the galaxy but with a relatively small empire because they don't worry much about expansion. Make them a neutral mercenary race, their technological superiority makes their systems a kind of non-aggression zone. Just a few ideas here, nothing concrete.

If you then decide to use your old space dwarf models to represent them, more power to you.

Easy E
08-12-2010, 18:03
You make something of a good point here. The trouble is that they haven't gotten the rules right yet. Once they actually have functional and balanced codices, I think the gamer community would be okay with a slow-down. Until then, the only way to keep the game balanced is more books, and quickly. Also, you don't see too many model releases without books (more recently).

If you make a system, some one will break the system. A common myth is that you can some how reach a "perfect" balance where broken armies, rules, etc. no longer exist. This is as likely as me being able to change lead into gold using Alchemiac formula.

Beck to Squats.... mantic you say? Some of the Grymm are pretty cool looking too.

Wishing
08-12-2010, 23:22
If the Demiurg are brought back, I'd like them to be re-imagined into an alien race rather then just "space dwarves".

I agree if by "space dwarves" we mean "fantasy dwarf culture ported into space". There were some unreleased squat models pictured in the rulebooks for 2nd ed with viking-style helmets and runes everywhere, and they looked awful. However, when I use the expression I just mean "short, stout humanoids in space" - no beards, runes or horned viking helmets please.

Gorbad Ironclaw
08-12-2010, 23:42
However, when I use the expression I just mean "short, stout humanoids in space" - no beards, runes or horned viking helmets please.

If the single defining feature of the race is that the models are somewhat shorter than other models for 40k I think they are better left alone. Being short just isn't a terribly interesting character trait and certainly not something you can hang an entire army on.

Lockjaw
09-12-2010, 04:06
never like the 'squat' conversions that just look like midget IG, give them beards at least!

Hendarion
09-12-2010, 06:16
omething cool, a race more concerned with technology then war, way ahead of everyone else in the galaxy but with a relatively small empire because they don't worry much about expansion. Make them a neutral mercenary race, their technological superiority makes their systems a kind of non-aggression zone. Just a few ideas here, nothing concrete.
Yet another faction said to be having uber-tech, even more uber than Tau, Eldar and Necrons? And then? Give them 4+ armour and a S4, AP6 Rapidfire weapon?

Vandur Last
15-12-2010, 02:31
Interesting discussion. I've been playing Dragon Age lately so I've got an idea On how to make the new square more unique. What if instead of small they were really big? I'm talking great whopping men of stone, literal stone. They could be the Ogre Kingdoms of 40K in terms if scale.
So big Stone Golems scouring space in search of the uber rare minerals required to make more of thief kind or searching for clues as to why happened to the long lost Runelords who created them.

Wishing
15-12-2010, 10:26
If the single defining feature of the race is that the models are somewhat shorter than other models for 40k I think they are better left alone. Being short just isn't a terribly interesting character trait and certainly not something you can hang an entire army on.


I didn't actually say that being short should be the *only* defining feature of the race - I said that directly copying the look and style of fantasy dwarfs into 40k results in stupidity. I'm fine with the aspects of mining and underground living that are traditionally associated with dwarves, however, visually I think they should have an appropriately dark sci-fi look, not just be dwarf fantasy models with guns. Exo-suits that look like they are built for mining, with their own unique hi-tech look, would be particularly cool in my mind.

jack da greenskin
15-12-2010, 20:31
I don't know of another 40k race that can hold a grudge for 10,000 years...?

neko
16-12-2010, 00:10
Noone can hold a grudge as long as an ex-Squat gamer! Wait, you said race, not player ;)

With regards to the Squats themselves though, I always saw the nomadic aspects as being more defining than the mining aspects, and I don't recall Dwarves as being much of a nomadic race.

Ironmonger
16-12-2010, 06:59
...I think they should have an appropriately dark sci-fi look...

:rolleyes: That right there was/is the problem.




With regards to the Squats themselves though, I always saw the nomadic aspects as being more defining than the mining aspects, and I don't recall Dwarves as being much of a nomadic race.

Nomadic? You mean, the Guild? Funny you should say that, as that was what got the Squats Jervis'd in the first place.

People always latch onto the biker motif as the reason Squats are funny and were axed, and whilst I admit that wasn't my most beloved aspect of their image in Rogue Trader, GW was totally ditching it by 2nd, and really playing up the high-tech, mining aspect. This really came to a head in Space Marine/EPIC where the bikes and trikes were basically unrecognizable from their 1st ed incarnation.

The Squats didn't get nixed because of them being bikers. Or fantasy Dwarfs. Or for selling poorly. It's been stated several times EXACTLY WHY they were...well...Squat'd: GW didn't have the drive/imagination to update them. All of the other facets of the Squats could have easily been reconned/explained away (even the name 'Squats;' just say it was a slang term/slur, and give them a different name...or multiple names...or anything, it's not that hard), but Jervis for one has been very explicit...even on this site! by saying that the codex was being worked on, but GW collectively had a brain-fart and gave up. They literally ran out of ideas.

A game company. Imagination. Running out of ideas. :eyebrows:

As for all the comments so far to the 'A straight Dwarfs in space concept is stupid!' line: what about Chaos in space? Vikings in space? Elves in Space? Yadda-flippin'-yadda.

Cheeslord
16-12-2010, 10:09
: This really came to a head in Space Marine/EPIC where the bikes and trikes were basically unrecognizable from their 1st ed incarnation.

.

Hmmm... I had a Squat Epic army when such a thing still was possible (I gave up Epic when Titan legions came out, but thats another story). Squat bikes, trikes etc. were a significant part of my army. They were essentially elite heavy cavalry (they were better in close combat than Space marines on bikes!). Don't know what they were supposed to be in 1st ed. but I don't think they were being wound down in Epic.

Mark.

Wishing
16-12-2010, 10:57
As for all the comments so far to the 'A straight Dwarfs in space concept is stupid!' line: what about Chaos in space? Vikings in space? Elves in Space? Yadda-flippin'-yadda.

What can I say, just my opinion based on the models I saw.

Note that I didn't say "all straight fantasy concepts in space are stupid!". Many of them I like, though I think it is a bit of a stretch to say that eldar are straight elves in space... comparing a high elf mage to an eldar warlock, they don't really look in any way similar except for a tendency for elongated helmets. When I say "straight fantasy concept in space" I mean that the models are regularly interchangeable between settings, like giving a fantasy orc a gun and using him in 40k or using your dark eldar archon as a dark elf general, both of which work very well.

Also, contrary to my previous statement, after some reflection I'm now willing to accept that straight up rune-clad dwarves with hi-tech guns could theoretically be quite cool, if they were sculpted well enough and with enough deadly style. So entirely unlike the 2nd ed squats.

Ironmonger
16-12-2010, 18:55
Hmmm... I had a Squat Epic army when such a thing still was possible (I gave up Epic when Titan legions came out, but thats another story). Squat bikes, trikes etc. were a significant part of my army. They were essentially elite heavy cavalry (they were better in close combat than Space marines on bikes!). Don't know what they were supposed to be in 1st ed. but I don't think they were being wound down in Epic.

Mark.

You misconstrue. I said that they were basically unrecognizable from their RT incarnation, not that they were being done away with. Their style had changed to a low-set, thick-wheeled version of an attack bike...sort of what the SM bikes look like now. They were no longer looking like bikers per se, but rather their own theme. As a matter of fact (walking over and looking at all my Squat Bikers), the '2nd wave' of RT Squats...those released closer to 2nd ed coming out...don't look like bikers themselves, but rather look like Squats (the visored helmets, quilted armour, sci-fi look). As a matter of fact, most of my army looks like that, which makes sense considering a lot of it came from 2nd ed.