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IGoblinego
06-12-2010, 13:57
Can you have a option to not use it in battle? Meaning that you are only using your ogre club.

AMWOOD co
06-12-2010, 14:07
No. The Ogre club is a fancy hand weapon, but still a hand weapon, while the iron fist is a special weapon. Once you've taken it you have forfeited the bonus of the Ogre Club's Armour Piercing.

Fritzallmighty
06-12-2010, 16:53
FAQ says you retain the club when you buy the ironfist. To me this reads that they are both special weapons, and you could use either, but not both simultaneously.

jthdotcom
06-12-2010, 17:48
FAQ says you retain the club when you buy the ironfist. To me this reads that they are both special weapons, and you could use either, but not both simultaneously.

But that would be silly as there is the rule of using them together as a hand weapon and shield.

Killjoy00
07-12-2010, 01:26
The ogre club is a special weapon. You can pick. Doesn't the club give you -1 armor save? That could be a reason to use.

Adran
07-12-2010, 10:37
In 8th Edition I don't think you get to pick anymore.
The Ogre club is a Hand weapon (with special rules). The Iron fist is a special weapon. You can use it as an extra hand weapon, or as a shield, but you do have to use it, so no more armour piecing.

belgarath97
08-12-2010, 18:21
Can you have a option to not use it in battle? Meaning that you are only using your ogre club.

The Ogre Kingdoms army book says Ogre clubs are hand weapons (pg 29). So normally you would not be allowed to not use the ironfist. But the ironfist has a special rule that let's you use it as a shield, with another hand weapon. Thus to use the Ogre Club, use the Ironfist as a Shield.

You get +1 to your AS, and a 6+ parry save.

AMWOOD co
08-12-2010, 18:30
...Thus to use the Ogre Club, use the Ironfist as a Shield.

You get +1 to your AS, and a 6+ parry save.

This is all true, but the Ogre Club will not benefit from the Armour Piercing, what the Original Poster is likely wanting. I believe the Ogre Club says that the benefit is lost if used with another weapon, and an Ironfist is another weapon no matter which way you use it.

mrjellybeans
08-12-2010, 18:50
The FAQ/errata changed it so that the ogre club now retains its -1 save when used with other weapons/shields.

kyussinchains
08-12-2010, 19:03
The FAQ/errata changed it so that the ogre club now retains its -1 save when used with other weapons/shields.

can you tell me which page? it says that ogres 'retain their clubs' when equipped with ironfists, but nothing about retaining armour piercing that I can find..... it implicitly states in the ogre clubs rule that the bonus is lost if the club is used with any other weapon or ironfist

mrjellybeans
08-12-2010, 19:29
I am possibly a mental patient who had a weird delusion that this ruling existed.

You can choose which weapon layout you want to use at the beggining of combat though, aka say the iron fist is not used to be able to use the club's AP.(though I may still be wrong on this as I was incorrect on the last one so badly).

belgarath97
09-12-2010, 15:59
mrjellybeans, the ironfist is a special weapon, thus you have to use it. You can choose to use it as a shield if you want, thus allowing you to use the ogre club, but you lose the AP.

It may have been ruled otherwise in an indy tournament, but given the rules in front of me the above interpretation is the only one I can see.

a18no
09-12-2010, 18:56
Ogre player are using Ogre club as a special weapon. After all, normal hand weapon is a weapon that get no bonus or benefit. Yes ogre club are hand weapon, but that don't exclude them to be a special weapon too.

The reason is that if the ogre club was their only hand weapon, they would retain the armor piercing all the time, when using 2 hand weapon or when using ironfist. What seem to be the consensus in the ogre community, is that when you pay the iron fist, you can choose at the beginning of any combat one of the 3 possibility:

a) 3A Str4 armor piercing on the first rank, 3A S4 armor piercing on the subsequent ranks
b) 4A Str 4 (on the first rank), and 3A S4 on the subsequent ranks
c) 3A Str 4 on each rank, and 6+ armor save and 6+ ward save. You can improve the armor with light armor (other upgrade available to normal ogre).

All of this is WAY from underpower (near 45pts each ogre...), and since the FAQ says that they "keep the ogre club" we can assume that it still keep some utility, or the FAQ would have been futile.

Hope that help

Avian
09-12-2010, 20:08
Ogre player are using Ogre club as a special weapon. After all, normal hand weapon is a weapon that get no bonus or benefit. Yes ogre club are hand weapon, but that don't exclude them to be a special weapon too.
Actually it does, as a special weapon is anything that isn't a hand weapon.


The reason is that if the ogre club was their only hand weapon, they would retain the armor piercing all the time, when using 2 hand weapon or when using ironfist.
Given that the army book has always explicitly stated otherwise, that is entirely hypothetical. :p

Mercules
10-12-2010, 20:04
Actually it does, as a special weapon is anything that isn't a hand weapon.

Ogre Club is a hand weapon. It is also a special weapon. Two Hand Weapons and Extra Hand Weapon are special weapons that also are "hand weapons".

BRB states that a Hand Weapon is a weapon with no special rules. Ogre Club has a special rule and ergo is not a "Hand Weapon" alone. It just happens to be a special weapon that counts as a hand weapon, like certain Magic Items state they are Spear, Hand Weapon, and such.

Avian
10-12-2010, 20:24
Again: no. A special weapon is anything that isn't a hand weapon. Ogre clubs are hand weapons despite being something more than regular hand weapons, because the army book says they are hand weapons and advanced rules trump basic rules.

Mercules
10-12-2010, 20:42
Under the heading "Two/Additional Hand Weapons" it goes on to state, "Some Warriors carry two hand weapons, one in each hand and can rain down even more blows on their enemy. An additional hand weapon cannot be used by a mounted model, or by a model that has a magical close combat weapon."

Are you going to argue that Two/Additional Hand Weapons are NOT Special Weapons?

Because an Ogre Club states in it that it is a hand weapon does not preclude it also being a special weapon. Additional Hand Weapons are considered a Special Weapon even though you are using a hand weapon in each hand. Ogre Clubs are special weapons in the same way even though they are hand weapons.

What is more if you check the roster section you will see that Ogre Bulls may be given:
"Any unit may be given either additional hand weapons or hand weapons and ironfists."
If the Ogre Club is a hand weapon this is redundant "hand weapon and ironfists"

Also on page 88 or the BRB it states, "Remember earlier when I said fighting with a hand weapon doesn't confer any special rule? Well, that's not exactly true - there is one case where it does. Some warriors carry a hand weapon in one hand and a shield in the other a common combination which grants the warrior a fighting chance to parry or block almost any attack, no matter how powerful."

Ogre Clubs do in fact confer a special rule, a -1 armor save. Ergo it can not be a Hand Weapon as the BRB states a hand weapon does not confer any special rule other than the one case where it is combined with a shield. So it is a Special Weapon just like Two/Additional Hand Weapons that mentions in its rules/description that it is a hand weapon.

Lord_Elric
10-12-2010, 20:50
an ogres club is a hand weapon in all respects in exactly the same way as a choppa and works in exactly the same way does it not?

Mercules
10-12-2010, 21:00
an ogres club is a hand weapon in all respects in exactly the same way as a choppa and works in exactly the same way does it not?

Wording is different.

"Ogre clubs are hand weapons, but they also impose an extra -1 Save modifier on any Armour Save. An Ogre using its club loses this bonus if it is used in conjunction with any other weapon or ironfist."

When you equip an Ogre with Ironfists you equip them with "Hand Weapons and Ironfists" you never use the club WITH Ironfist, you use the Hand Weapons. The FAQ states you retain your Ogre Club, but not that you are using it.

Lord_Elric
10-12-2010, 21:08
hmm ok agreed if it says it loses the bonus but ofcorse as the iron fist is a special weapon you have no option to default to using the ogre club alone without the iron fist

Mercules
10-12-2010, 21:13
If the Ogre Club was only a Hand Weapon I would agree. It is a Special Weapon with a rule that also counts as a Hand Weapon. This means that if an Ogre Bruiser takes a Magical Shield they can get a Parry Save using their Ogre Club and Magical Shield. All those Magic Armor "shields" actually state shield and the Ogre Club, which is still a special weapon, states it is a hand weapon so you can gain a parry bonus.

Lord_Elric
10-12-2010, 23:14
no as stated every model is considered armed with a hand weapon

the ogre club is a handweapon with a special rule in exactly the same way as an orcs chopper that does not make it a special weapon it is the ogres hand weapon youll notice it doesnt state "hand weapon" in the equipment of any ogre model

Mercules
10-12-2010, 23:51
no as stated every model is considered armed with a hand weapon

the ogre club is a handweapon with a special rule in exactly the same way as an orcs chopper that does not make it a special weapon it is the ogres hand weapon youll notice it doesnt state "hand weapon" in the equipment of any ogre model

So you are about to argue that Leadbelcher Cannons, Yhetee Ice Weapons, and even better Great Weapons are "Hand Weapons"? As you stated, notice it doesn't state "Hand Weapon" in Ironguts, Yehtees, or Leadbelcher's equipment area either. :p

Lord Inquisitor
11-12-2010, 00:00
I'm going to make an appeal for RAI

FAQ says:

Q. When a unit of Ogre Bulls is equipped with hand weapons and
Ironfists, do they retain their Ogre Clubs? (p29)
A. Yes.

What possible reason for this answer to be a "yes" if the Ogre Club cannot be used under any circumstances? It is surely implicit that this retention means you can choose to use club or ironfist/hw?

Lord_Elric
11-12-2010, 01:26
So you are about to argue that Leadbelcher Cannons, Yhetee Ice Weapons, and even better Great Weapons are "Hand Weapons"? As you stated, notice it doesn't state "Hand Weapon" in Ironguts, Yehtees, or Leadbelcher's equipment area either. :p

hmmm agreed i also hadnt noticed that a butcher is armed with a hand weapon not an ogre club sooo yeh that only leaves it as a special weapon tht can be used as a hand weapon.

i concide fully...