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View Full Version : Food for thought, your thoughts please.



Draconis
06-12-2010, 17:42
So I got down to thinking about comparing armies, CSM versus Black Templar and I figured I'd make an identical army out of CSM and compare the differences. Heres what I came up with.

BT
Emperor's champion w/accept any challenge
Chaplain w/ Thunder hammer, crozius, terminator armor and adamantite mantle

4x5 Templars w/power weapon and plasma rifle
4x2 Neophytes to be bullet sponges

1x Dread with Assault cannon and missle launcher
1x Pred with Auto cannon and lascannon side sponsoons


CSM
Chaos terminator lord with Daemon Weapon
Terminator sorc w/ familiar doombolt and wind of chaos

2x 10 CSM w/ 2x Power weapon and 2x Plasma gun

1x Dread with auto-cannon and missle launcher
1x Pred w/ auto cannon and lascannon side sponsoons


Now, you might think they are pretty similar but lets look at it closely.

The Lord vs Emp. Champion
Both have WS6, but with the lord having +1 wound. But the emp. champion has a 4+ invuln. So both about the same cept the champ also has +1 S and gives his army re-rolls in close combat for the same point cost

The troops, both have 4x plasma guns, while the BT have 2 more power weapons and 8 more wounds due to neophytes

The dreads, same point costs, the auto cannon has +1 S and more range, and the assault cannon has 2 more shots plus rending. So pretty close. However it also has a 1/3 chance of not doing what you want it to.

The preds are pretty much the same.

So all in all, the BT comes out with a very slight advantage, until you realize they get to have 8 more wounds and everyone gets to re-roll in close combat. So all in all, I personally don't think its very balanced. Though I'm having fun playing it, Im not complaining, just merely making a statement. Whats the communities thoughts on balance?

Amareo Davion
06-12-2010, 17:51
You could start by getting rid of the Neophytes. The BT's already have more power weapons + the re-roll in CC rule, so bullet sponges aren't really needed if you want a balanced fight, in my opinion.

AFnord
06-12-2010, 17:53
If you simply chose to build two armies from different books and make them as close to each other as possible, then one will generally come out on top. But by doing so, you are not playing your armies strengths, which your CSM army clearly shows.

The Song of Spears
06-12-2010, 17:59
If you simply chose to build two armies from different books and make them as close to each other as possible, then one will generally come out on top. But by doing so, you are not playing your armies strengths, which your CSM army clearly shows.

This is correct.

Some obliterators, a daemon prince with warptime and wings (or a sorcerer with lash) and some cheapo chaos termis instead of the predator, dread and lord and you would feel the Chaos army to be OP (its not, but meh...)

Draconis
07-12-2010, 02:51
Oh I agree. But its just funny seeing the difference in armies when made to reflect each other. The blatant differences and advantages are definitely there.

My latest incarnation however should have an easier time. I have 28 marines, termie lord and daemon prince. With 2 squads of chosen, each with 2 meltas and 3 plasmas, I should be able to wittle down the numbers pretty quick.

Its going to be a termie lord with MoN and daemon weapon, combi-melta
Prince with MoN, wings
2x6 CSM with 1x Plasma Gun
2x1 Asp. Champs w/ Power Weapon
2x7 Chosen w/ 3x Plasma Guns and 2x Melta Guns per squad

The Song of Spears
07-12-2010, 16:21
When it comes to chaos I can kind of see the idea of "base similarities".

Codex Design:
Start out with the basic units in a Space Marines codex, points, options and all. Then add in special Chaos units to make the codex unique. But if just the basics are used - then all things should be equal.


Makes you wonder: what would 40k be like if the Chaos book was ONLY a huge list of was to "chaosify" every other codex? Using the other books as simple rules templates, and applying its own fluff and background to justify the units or powers...

Sabe
07-12-2010, 16:50
The Lord vs Emp. Champion
Both have WS6, but with the lord having +1 wound. But the emp. champion has a 4+ invuln. So both about the same cept the champ also has +1 S and gives his army re-rolls in close combat for the same point cost

I'm going to assume you intentionally forgot the +D6 attacks and permanent(vs only in CC) inv save of the chaos lord to make the Emp's Champ look better than he is.


The troops, both have 4x plasma guns, while the BT have 2 more power weapons and 8 more wounds due to neophytes

Not only are the BT squads considerably less survivable in this set up but your also forgetting the CSM have ultra Grit, hence are going to match the BT's in CC but excel in shooting, or vice versa. Either way the CSM are doing better. And if your really trying to match these armies up "as close as possible" why not use the same number of squads with the same number of models(aka no Neophytes).


The dreads, same point costs, the auto cannon has +1 S and more range, and the assault cannon has 2 more shots plus rending. So pretty close. However it also has a 1/3 chance of not doing what you want it to.

SM dreads are better than CSM ones, no doubt. Thats why CSM get defilers...mind you the fact we aren't playing to the CSM's strengths has already been said.

Overall it just seems like you weren't trying to make a fair comparison at all. That or you just missed a lot of things, in which case it would be better to take a deeper look at it next time.

Shnerg
07-12-2010, 16:55
Right. Prepare for a wall.

Firstly, they're not identical lists. If you think a TH Chappy is the same as a DB and WoC Sorc then you have problems. They are not the same. To be honest, you couldn't further away.

Secondly, the individual characteristics are what makes an army unique. DThe Railgun doesn't make Tau unbalanced. The individual characteristics are important. Just because the ******* marines haven't got 72" S10 AP1 doesn't mean that Tau aren't balanced.

Thirdly, if you do need to compare them, then try using the standard codex. You can't compare BTs, which are assaulty marines with Chaos, which are assaulty, but play completely differently.

Fourthly, base similarities make no difference. If an army is balanced, who gives two flying hoots that you can kill a squad before it does it's job? Not all armies are overpowered. Take Blood Angels, they're another kind of marine. They're completely overpowered; does it matter if they're another kind of marine? It won't stop them from being overpowered.

Fifthly, base similarities don't really exist. Most armies play nothing alike. How would you be able to play in a Space Wolves style with Necrons? The only one is all the SMs, which don't actually need their own books.

Sorry to go on, but this REALLY agitated me. If it seems unbalanced, then just don't play 40K.

The Song of Spears
08-12-2010, 23:06
Not playing to ANYONE'S strengths :P

BT =
HQ:
109 Marshal
w/Storm Shield, Power Weapon, Frag/Krak Grenades, Bolt Pistol

TROOPS:
268 Crusader Squad x10
w/Powerfist, Meltagun, Frag/Krak Grenades
Rhino w/smoke launchers

268 Crusader Squad x10
w/Powerfist, Meltagun, Frag/Krak Grenades
Rhino w/smoke launchers

ELITES:
115 Dreadnaught w/ DCCW, Multi-Melta

HEAVY SUPPORT:
125 Predator Destructor w/ Lascannon Sponsons

FAST ATTACK:
245 Assault Marines x10

________
1130



Chaos =
HQ:
105 Chaos Lord
w/Power Weapon

TROOPS:
235 Chaos Marines x9 w/Meltagun
Champion w/Powerfist
Rhino

235 Chaos Marines x9 w/Meltagun
Champion w//Powerfist
Rhino

ELITES:
100 Dreadnaught w/ DCCW, Multi-Melta

HEAVY SUPPORT:
130 Predator w/ Lascannon Sponsons, Autocanon

FAST ATTACK:
240 Raptors x9
Champion w/Powerfist
________
1045



So looking at it this way - chaos owns, big time...

And if you think about it, we can do the same with the vanilla Space marines codex, and I think, the Dark Angels Code and Blood Angels codex.

I have played a few games now doing this and its very fun, and challenging, good for a change, but not as a standard army list...

Mostly it makes you really lean hard on your tactical marines.



Blood Angels =
HQ:
115 Captain
w/Power Weapon

TROOPS:
250 Tactical Squad x9 w/Meltagun
Searg w/Powerfist
Rhino

250 Tactical Squad x9 w/Meltagun
Searg w/Powerfist
Rhino

215 Assault Squad x9
Searg w/Powerfist

ELITES:
105 Dreadnaught w/ Blood Fist, Multi-Melta

HEAVY SUPPORT:
135 Predator w/ Lascannon Sponsons, Autocanon

________
1070


Dark Angels =
HQ:
115 Company Master
w/Power Weapon

TROOPS:
235 Tactical Squad x9 w/Meltagun
Searg w/Powerfist
Rhino

235 Tactical Squad x9 w/Meltagun
Searg w/Powerfist
Rhino

ELITES:
125 Dreadnaught w/ DCCW, Multi-Melta

HEAVY SUPPORT:
130 Predator w/ Lascannon Sponsons, Autocanon

FAST ATTACK:
260 Assault Squad x9
Searg w/Powerfist
________
1100