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bound for glory
07-12-2010, 21:54
being in the united states, i have not gotten a copy of prospero burns yet. but i can't see how horus could have talked russ into destoying magnus and the thousand sons...
from what i understand from the fluff from years past, the emperor(beloved by all) told russ to bring back magnus to give an account of himself. and horus get to russ before he gets to prospero and tells russ the emperor wants magnus and company dead.
i mean to say, does'nt russ tink twice about it? does'nt russ have some valued captains who would say,"maybe we should check back with terra first.
i always thought this was a goffy story flaw.

Londinium
08-12-2010, 02:15
Horus is the Emperor's right hand man, what he says is as good as the Emperor's word. Thus the Wolves probably never had any reason to doubt what he was saying.

MEcorp
08-12-2010, 02:21
Plus the Wolves dislike and distrust Magnus anyway.

Not to mention that it's not beyond the realm of possibility to suggest that Russ thought he heard it from the Emperor. Just look at the shenanigans the Word Bearers pull in First Heretic.

Asur_phoenix
08-12-2010, 02:21
what he said...

Plus the space wolves had a dislike of what they considered 'sorcery' which gave them a natural dislike of the thousand sons.

Chaplain of Chaos
08-12-2010, 02:36
Yeah i think they did a good job of fleshing out the intense dislike they had for each other in "The Thousand Sons"

They nearly came too blows once already.

agurus1
08-12-2010, 02:37
Space Wolves hate the THousand Sons because of their dabbling in magic and sorcery (which the Emperor condemned), so it is not a far stretch to think that hearing from Horus (the appointed commander of the Imperial Armed forces) that the Emperor wanted Magnus dead, he didn't think twice but gave into his blood lust.

Slazton
08-12-2010, 03:12
A Thousand Sons really does show the dislike between the two legions already and I feel it did not take much for Russ to lose all thought. In A Thousand Sons the Wolf King is described as a feral barbarian with a bloodlust that controls his thoughts. The Wolves from the HH series seem more like feral tribesmen then the Wolves of latter days IMHO.

I think it just took Horus a few kegs and Russ was all for it. He was not known to be rational and to him Magnus was outright disobediant and if the Emperor deemed his existence was needed to be snuffed out then so be it. I just find it funny the SW use Librarians still even after the Nikaea abnning. Did that mainly apply to Magnus only or was that overall?

It does get confusing on that element....

Nazguire
08-12-2010, 07:46
A Thousand Sons really does show the dislike between the two legions already and I feel it did not take much for Russ to lose all thought. In A Thousand Sons the Wolf King is described as a feral barbarian with a bloodlust that controls his thoughts. The Wolves from the HH series seem more like feral tribesmen then the Wolves of latter days IMHO.

I think it just took Horus a few kegs and Russ was all for it. He was not known to be rational and to him Magnus was outright disobediant and if the Emperor deemed his existence was needed to be snuffed out then so be it. I just find it funny the SW use Librarians still even after the Nikaea abnning. Did that mainly apply to Magnus only or was that overall?

It does get confusing on that element....

It applied to all Legions. But the Space Wolves genuinely believed that their Rune Priests didn't use the Warp, but other powers gained from 'Mother Fenris', and were thus exempt from this ruling. See Othere Wyrdmake.

From what I understand former Librarians were mind-wiped and became regular line-troopers again.

Iuris
08-12-2010, 08:07
From the entire series (earlier parts, at least), I got the impression that there was a lot of hatred present in Russ already, a consequence of his upbringing. So, when the Emperor ordered Russ to Prospero, he could already barely wait to give Magnus a well deserved thumping.

However, the orders were relayed through Horus, who did so personally, making sure to additionally anger Russ, feeding the coals into a roaring rage. Horus being the master motivator, guess this was just the job he was best at.

The later fluff seems to change this a bit, and Russ's hatred is stressed even more previously, requiring little help from Horus to turn murderous.

Flawed
08-12-2010, 08:51
I always wondered why Russ was so eager to turn on and kill one of his brother's. By this stage, no one knew of the heresy and the concept of marine fighting marine was anathema to -everyone- on the loyalist side. How could Horus, even accounting for Russ' volatile nature, ever convince him that it was ok to kill Magnus?

The only thing I can think that maybe explains this, is the missing legions. Orders to destroy a legion had been given out before. Maybe even to the Wolves, as I'm sure I heard the theory that the very purpose of the Wolves was to police other legions and do something about them if they got out of line. So the reason Russ doesn't go wtf, -kill- a brother!? is because he's had to do it before.

Iuris
08-12-2010, 09:03
I always wondered why Russ was so eager to turn on and kill one of his brother's. By this stage, no one knew of the heresy and the concept of marine fighting marine was anathema to -everyone- on the loyalist side. How could Horus, even accounting for Russ' volatile nature, ever convince him that it was ok to kill Magnus?

The only thing I can think that maybe explains this, is the missing legions. Orders to destroy a legion had been given out before. Maybe even to the Wolves, as I'm sure I heard the theory that the very purpose of the Wolves was to police other legions and do something about them if they got out of line. So the reason Russ doesn't go wtf, -kill- a brother!? is because he's had to do it before.

I think Russ was, due to being raised on cosmopolitan Fenris, way ahead of the times and already sported the fashionable "Burn the witch!" mentality that has beecome so popular in the next few millenia :)

shadowhawk2008
08-12-2010, 10:46
I always wondered why Russ was so eager to turn on and kill one of his brother's. By this stage, no one knew of the heresy and the concept of marine fighting marine was anathema to -everyone- on the loyalist side. How could Horus, even accounting for Russ' volatile nature, ever convince him that it was ok to kill Magnus?

The only thing I can think that maybe explains this, is the missing legions. Orders to destroy a legion had been given out before. Maybe even to the Wolves, as I'm sure I heard the theory that the very purpose of the Wolves was to police other legions and do something about them if they got out of line. So the reason Russ doesn't go wtf, -kill- a brother!? is because he's had to do it before.

IIRC that was a conclusion of Dan Abnett and Graham McNeill, at least that's how Dan said it in the Thousand Sons/Prospero Burns duology video trailer - that the very purpose of the Wolves was to be able to take down another Legion. The fury and rage of the Space Wolves Legions has always been their trademark.

FarseerMatt
08-12-2010, 12:19
I can swallow Russ and the Wolves not questioning Horus (due to trust or simply having heard what they wanted to hear all along), but I don't understand what Horus was thinking.

What was he supposed to get out of it? He may have forced the Thousand Sons into joining his side, but they lost most of their fighting strength. He could have got them on-side without crippling them in the process by going to Magnus instead of Russ and telling him the Wolves were coming, playing on his fears of being cast out.

On the other hand, if Horus hadn't intervened at all, the Thousand Sons would have been censured and possibly driven to his side anyway out of resentment. At the very least, they would have been neutralised as an opponent while the trial was held.

I mean, did they make this retcon purely to take a morally-dubious act out of the hands of the heroes (the Emperor, in a poorly-judged snap decision, or Russ, in a moment of letting personal enmity cloud his judgement) and put it into those of a less ambiguous bad guy?

Lord_Crull
08-12-2010, 13:16
I can swallow Russ and the Wolves not questioning Horus (due to trust or simply having heard what they wanted to hear all along), but I don't understand what Horus was thinking.

What was he supposed to get out of it? He may have forced the Thousand Sons into joining his side, but they lost most of their fighting strength. He could have got them on-side without crippling them in the process by going to Magnus instead of Russ and telling him the Wolves were coming, playing on his fears of being cast out.

On the other hand, if Horus hadn't intervened at all, the Thousand Sons would have been censured and possibly driven to his side anyway out of resentment. At the very least, they would have been neutralised as an opponent while the trial was held.

I mean, did they make this retcon purely to take a morally-dubious act out of the hands of the heroes (the Emperor, in a poorly-judged snap decision, or Russ, in a moment of letting personal enmity cloud his judgement) and put it into those of a less ambiguous bad guy?

The spoilers in the Prospero Burns thread in the Black Library section of this forum might answer your question.

Namely the whole Chaos plot was to have the Wolves and Sons destroy or cripple each other.

Londinium
08-12-2010, 13:21
It applied to all Legions. But the Space Wolves genuinely believed that their Rune Priests didn't use the Warp, but other powers gained from 'Mother Fenris', and were thus exempt from this ruling. See Othere Wyrdmake.

From what I understand former Librarians were mind-wiped and became regular line-troopers again.



Garro: Oath of Moment seems to suggets that the librarians were just returned to the ranks and told not to use their powers. One of it's key characters is a former Ultramarines librarian struggling to obey the edict not to use his powers when it's costing him his comrade's lives.

Slazton
08-12-2010, 13:21
Lord Crull makes a valid point about the Wolves and the Thousand Sons. Both had a possibility of falling to Horus' side and perhaps if the Wolves had killed Magnus instead of him fleeing, then Horus had an idea of using that as leverage. However, it is an awesome conflict that leaves both sides heavily damaged and let's not forget, the Thousand Sons were there at the Seige of Terra.

Ramius4
08-12-2010, 13:44
i always thought this was a goffy story flaw.

Which is probably why neither book deals with it. All we learn from ATS is that the wolves attack Prospero. There is nothing about who sent them, Horus manipulating the orders etc.

Prospero Burns, as far as I'm aware doesn't touch this old piece of fluff either. (I haven't read it yet, but others have answered to this effect in the Prospero Burns threads).

So it is left to the reader to speculate what happened "behind the scenes" so to speak. Which is a better way to deal with it IMO.

bound for glory
08-12-2010, 22:15
well, to not address the subject in either book, that, to me, is a big cop out. fan of the series aside, this is important and interesting stuff. i can really see how its been left out. makes prospero burns less interesting to me. stupid, stupid way to tell a story...

Sinisterfence
08-12-2010, 22:25
You guys seem to be forgetting that Magnus tried to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal, if he hadn't been killed/ run away to the warp to be corrupted by Tzeentch, he would've been in a prison cell in the Solar System ready to be let out as soon as he was proven right and add his legions strength to the Loyalist's side in the seige without wasting resources and strength getting there in the first place, and considering they were one of the few legions with knowledge of warp beasts, they would've likely tipped the scales majorly and meant that Horus may not have gotten cocky enough to lower his shields and got his ass handed to him long before he did, thus not being able to wound The Emperor. :)

Nazguire
08-12-2010, 22:29
You guys seem to be forgetting that Magnus tried to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal, if he hadn't been killed/ run away to the warp to be corrupted by Tzeentch, he would've been in a prison cell in the Solar System ready to be let out as soon as he was proven right and add his legions strength to the Loyalist's side in the seige without wasting resources and strength getting there in the first place, and considering they were one of the few legions with knowledge of warp beasts, they would've likely tipped the scales majorly and meant that Horus may not have gotten cocky enough to lower his shields and got his ass handed to him long before he did, thus not being able to wound The Emperor. :)


That's an almost impossible situation. Can you actually see Magnus allowing himself to be imprisoned along with his Legion? Magnus was extremely arrogant. To surrender to someone he sees as a feral barbarian would be beneath him, and to shame his Legion such as that even more would have been more than what he could take I'd say. He did have a red-headed temper in him. Stupid Ranga that he was :D

Lord_Crull
09-12-2010, 00:09
That's an almost impossible situation. Can you actually see Magnus allowing himself to be imprisoned along with his Legion? Magnus was extremely arrogant. To surrender to someone he sees as a feral barbarian would be beneath him, and to shame his Legion such as that even more would have been more than what he could take I'd say. He did have a red-headed temper in him. Stupid Ranga that he was :D

If Magnus was willing to deliberately sabotage his own Legion and even murder one of his own Captains, then I say he would have surrendered. In fact it's even mentioned that he would have disabled the orbital shields if he could have gotten away with it.

If Magnus was willingly to be destroyed by that ''feral barbarian'' then he would have certainly surrendered to him. In fact the only reason why Magnus interverned was because Ahirman practically begged him to do so.

FabricatorGeneralMike
09-12-2010, 00:25
Sighs, why does everything involving Tzeentch end with him or a Lord of Change going ; "Everything according to plan muhahahahahah muahhaahahahh hahhahahahah hahahaahhh"


Sighs, I just hope Mr Abnett treated us a little better, kinda like ADB does. ;)

Ramius4
09-12-2010, 19:07
well, to not address the subject in either book, that, to me, is a big cop out. fan of the series aside, this is important and interesting stuff. i can really see how its been left out. makes prospero burns less interesting to me. stupid, stupid way to tell a story...

I love how just before each HH book comes out, you lambast it before you've even read it. Just like First Heretic, you were positively belligerent about it, and then came around and admitted after reading it that you liked it and you were wrong.

How about doing something that will amaze me and read the book first before offering petty (and quite possibly very unfounded) criticism?

bound for glory
09-12-2010, 19:35
oh. so because i ask a question, i'm being some how out of line? why don't YOU amaze me and jump off the fanboy boat? and for the record, i voiced my opinion about the first heretic. witch i may do, as i like. and to leave something out, something important and interesting, is goofy. now go away and let adults post.

Ramius4
09-12-2010, 19:56
oh. so because i ask a question, i'm being some how out of line? why don't YOU amaze me and jump off the fanboy boat?

Nope, it has nothing to do with the question, yet everything to do with your subsequent whinefest about it that is frankly getting old and repetetive.


and for the record, i voiced my opinion about the first heretic.

And ADB, and Thousand Sons, and every other HH book, ad nauseum. And your argument is always the same. (see "fanboy" and "fanboism") If you like, I can pull up at least a dozen of the same quotes from you in other threads?

Opinions are one thing, but having an uninformed one soon becomes spam and tiresome.


now go away and let adults post.

Really? :rolleyes:

bound for glory
09-12-2010, 20:15
well, i'm sorry i offended you. its not a whinefest to ask a question. i did'nt see you attack the others who agreed with me. but thats ok. you have to show off(and make comments, 2,154 and counting) so i'm an easy target. and as for becoming spam...really? don't answer. noone else here felt the need to make a rude comment. then i get a pm saying don't argue with ramius4 because he:
a) knows everything
b)has a opinion on everything
and c) hes always right
ok, you win!

MarshalFaust
09-12-2010, 20:59
I think the bigger question is why would the emperor send Russ to bring in Magnus when he had to have known about the the tension and dislike between the two legions unless he wanted Russ to destroy them? i got the impression after reading The First Heretic that the destruction of the thousand sons would not have been the first time that Russ was used in such a manner and he really didnt want to do it again unless he had to. I dont think Russ was a mindless killer at all, its pointed out in several of the HH books that Russ is not really what he seems to be and is really only playing the part of the berzerker barbarian. If the emperor wanted to bring Magnus in and not kill him and his legion why would he not have sent a much more diplomatic primarch and possibly someone Magnus would have trusted? Sanguinius perhaps

MEcorp
09-12-2010, 21:05
@MarshalFaust
That's actually a very good point. Maybe the Emperor actually did want Magnus, or at least large parts of his legion, dead. Maybe he simply got Horus to relay the orders to give himself some plausible deniability. Maybe the Emperor isn't such a nice guy, and is really just a master politician.

MarshalFaust
09-12-2010, 21:14
Especially in light of the information we got in the first heretic where its explained to Lorgar by Magnus himself that the emperor had almost decided to destroy the Word Bearers for directly disobeying his command just as Magnus would eventually end up doing but it was Russ who spoke up for Lorgar and wanted to give him a second chance. I think this was very telling in regards to what happened with Magnus. He broke the emperors command and Russ was sent to destroy his legion.

Goosey_J
09-12-2010, 22:36
I think the answer as to "who gave the order to cop off the 1K Sons - Empy or Horus" is really pretty obvious. Consider the following fundamental truths:

1. The Emperor is a dick.
2. The Emperor outlaws the use of Psychic powers.
3. (and most importantly) Magnus bursts out the Golden Throne webway gate in the guise of a many eyed red daemon thing, completely destroying humanity's only hope for non warp dependent travel, while claiming that Horus is going to turn traitor.
4. He then sends the legion killers to 'apprehend him', the primarch of which has a personal hatred of both a) Magnus & b) anything to do with sorcery.

I mean come on. Along with the multitude of other evidence presented in this thread, the evidence is overwhelming. In the Emperor's eyes, Magnus had turned. And there is only one fate for those that turn. Horus never gave any order to Russ. There simply wasn't any need to.

Lord_Crull
09-12-2010, 22:38
2. The Emperor outlaws the use of Psychic powers.


Half right, he outlawed the use of a Librarius in the Legion. For the rest of the Imperium psyker powers where needed.


4. He then sends the legion killers to 'apprehend him', the primarch of which has a personal hatred of both a) Magnus & b) anything to do with sorcery.

I mean come on. Along with the multitude of other evidence presented in this thread, the evidence is overwhelming. In the Emperor's eyes, Magnus had turned. And there is only one fate for those that turn. Horus never gave any order to Russ. There simply wasn't any need to.

Actually, going by the rumors I've heard of Prospero Burns, Russ appearantly was willing to accept Magnus's surrender. However due to circumstances he was unable to contact him.

In addition when Ahirman is looking through Wyrdmake's soul/memories, he mentions orders from Horus changing things.

Goosey_J
09-12-2010, 22:43
Half right, he outlawed the use of a Librarius in the Legion. For the rest of the Imperium psyker powers where needed.



Actually, going by the rumors I've heard of Prospero Burns, Russ appearantly was willing to accept Magnus's surrender. However due to circumstances he was unable to contact him.

In addition when Ahirman is looking through Wyrdmake's soul/memories, he mentions orders from Horus changing things.

Ah yes, I totally forgot about that part. Stupid of me, the psyker battle between Ahriman and Wyrdmake is probably the best part of that book.

Hmmm, well there goes a whole thread of what was for once actual well supported conspiracy theorising. And a cool theory at that.

bound for glory
10-12-2010, 05:36
thanks for your imput, guys! dumb question, i know. just wondering.