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Silent_Moebius
08-12-2010, 08:24
So, having all the stuff of the Rogue Traders in mind, I thought, how cool it could be, having rogue traders with other races. After some seconds, going through all the stuff, I thought of eldar pirates.

I once read some articels about them. The most populars are the Yriel pirates. Not having a homeworld ship anymore, fighting and trading along the universe. I think, they really could have the image to trade with other races (Not such like Space Marines - they trade only with bolter and chainsword).

How do they get new troops? What equip do they have? Which aspects do they have? Will they join Dark Eldar, if the price is right? So much questions. What is with the path and not falling back to the great enemy? Do they have psykers? What is with the soul stone? Where to put it?

I think, they will be most like Saim Hann. Really fast attack. Then take what you can and disappear (Ok, that is not Saim Hann anymore). I think, they can't take much losses. Then use or trade, what you just got.

In my opinion, the eldar pirate force will contain one autarch. The big leader, the pirate captain. Then, as a adviser, maybe a farseer. With limited powers. Dire Avengers as main attack troop. Normal guardsmen will steal the treasure and load it in the serpent, while the attack remains. (the guardsmen will be the lowest worker class here). It has to be fast, so Vypers with anti tank load out. Maybe a Illum Zar.
The rest? I don't know. I think, they will not having so much aspect warriors. Wraith constructs are also a no go. War Walkers? Ok, maybe, but not on an attack. They are to slow. Falcons are not worth it. They need transport capacity or fire power. Not more than one, maybe two Illum Zar's.

What do you think? Are eldar pirates cool? Or just a no go in fluff history? Can they take a similar place as the human rogue traders? Or is this a no go? I find it fascinating. So, what do you think?

Iracundus
08-12-2010, 08:31
First, it is rogue not rouge. Rouge traders would be describing traders dealing in cosmetics.

It seems you are asking how to represent them modelwise. In terms of background, they would be on no Paths, or rather the Path of the Outcast which is really the lack of a Path.

However different pirate bands vary in how tightly they align themselves with a Craftworld (if at all). Those that do, or that are conducting missions on behalf of a Craftworld could conceivably have Path followers on board from the Craftworld as a temporary attachment. However other pirate groups operate independently and others are darker and closer to the Dark Eldar. You could also choose to represent them with Dark Eldar.

What equipment they would have is fairly open because these pirate bands can be huge. They are after all flying around in starships with capital ship weaponry, and others have been described with air forces and dropships. These are pirates with access to military grade resources.

Poseidal
08-12-2010, 08:48
I think it was mentioned that Pirates are super diverse. You have examples of outright benevolence to Dark Eldar style cruelty (of course, some of these are actually Dark Eldar exiled from Commoragh like the special character in the new book).

The amount of loyalty also varies; some maintain close to their craftworld and are used by the craftworld occasionally; others sever ties drastically IIRC.

The problem is, some things are too 'formalised' to use in Pirate style armies. Aspect Warriors are very rigid and have some very specific wargear for example.

eldargal
08-12-2010, 08:56
Weren't some of the Outcasts/Rangers in Path of the Warrior trading on behalf of the Craftworld?

Silent_Moebius
08-12-2010, 09:07
First, it is rogue not rouge. Rouge traders would be describing traders dealing in cosmetics.

Space elfes dealing in cosmetics? Sounds weird, but cool ;)
I had always problems with that. I will correct it, where I can.

The point of representing them is far away. First, I collect some infos on that. I speak of eldar, which leave their craftworld to become pirates, or better say, to become rogue trader. I think, the pirate theme here fits perfectly. -> It is like the human rogue trader. It was mentioned, that half or more of them are pirates, not more. But with a license. Now, for their luck, eldar don't need licenses ;)

With dark eldar, I have my problems thinking of them as rogue traders. The hole stuff of "getting the soul and take them alive" - I don't know. That doesn't fit in the hole rogue trader stuff. At least for me. It is for profit. When you take every salesmen as prisoner to sacrifice him, you will run out of business.


The problem is, some things are too 'formalised' to use in Pirate style armies. Aspect Warriors are very rigid and have some very specific wargear for example.

That is, what I want to ask / discuss about. What do you think, eldar pirates / rogue trader could have? Do they really have aspect warriors, or only guardsmen?

Iracundus
08-12-2010, 09:21
With dark eldar, I have my problems thinking of them as rogue traders. The hole stuff of "getting the soul and take them alive" - I don't know. That doesn't fit in the hole rogue trader stuff. At least for me. It is for profit. When you take every salesmen as prisoner to sacrifice him, you will run out of business.


It isn't said that the captured slaves have to be all instantly sacrificed or consumed. Even the Dark Eldar take them alive back to Commorragh at which point they are traded to others, as a form of currency. A darker pirate force could do the same if they have any business dealings with the Dark Eldar.

Silent_Moebius
08-12-2010, 09:46
It isn't said that the captured slaves have to be all instantly sacrificed or consumed. Even the Dark Eldar take them alive back to Commorragh at which point they are traded to others, as a form of currency. A darker pirate force could do the same if they have any business dealings with the Dark Eldar.

I don't have anything against slaves (oh meh :cool:), the only thing I don't like is soul sucking part. ;)

Poseidal
08-12-2010, 10:05
Most Dark Eldar seem to get slaves for other purposes now:

Entertainment - usually in forms of gladiatorial arenas where their pain feeds them (rather than soul sucking) and keeps the Dark Eldar populace sustained

Economy - A lot seem to be used in factories to manufacture, I would wager most end up here for the non-combatant slaves as they will make for worse entertainment but can work.

Haemoculus - For their experiments or whatever they do. Probably given over to them as payment for the preservation services the Haemoculi provide.

Iracundus
08-12-2010, 10:10
Most Dark Eldar seem to get slaves for other purposes now:

Entertainment - usually in forms of gladiatorial arenas where their pain feeds them (rather than soul sucking) and keeps the Dark Eldar populace sustained

Economy - A lot seem to be used in factories to manufacture, I would wager most end up here for the non-combatant slaves as they will make for worse entertainment but can work.

Haemoculus - For their experiments or whatever they do. Probably given over to them as payment for the preservation services the Haemoculi provide.

As above. Even if an Eldar pirate band didn't consume directly themselves, they could trade with the Dark Eldar for weapons, repair and resupply services, luxury items, entertainments, etc...

For simple consumables, perhaps the Exodites can be a source. We already know from Path of the Warrior that the Craftworlds get meat from the Exodites.

Nobody says a pirate band has to deal with only 1 faction.

Silent_Moebius
08-12-2010, 10:28
Ok, after saying how they can get their equip / repair / what ever they need, what do you think, will be in their force?

In an eldar force, I said in my first post, what I think will be there. But in a Dark Eldar pirate force? They are independent from Commorragh, only getting there to trade (Ok, so far, so good). They don't really care about the politics here, because they have their own empire, make their own decision, and so on. They only want to have someone to trade. What forces will join? As I said it by the eldars, I don't think, that a pirate force will contain much aspect warriors. Is there any similar example with the Dark ones?

Poseidal
08-12-2010, 10:28
For the earlier comment about what an Eldar rogue trader/pirate is likely to have:

Aspect Warrior and Incubi: Low - their purpose is war rather than the jobs a rogue trader would be expected to do; it would be more likely the other way round where a craftworld drafted in some of it's outcasts (corsairs, 'rogue trader', rangers) to help along side their forces.

There is a precedent for some to be sent on other types of mission set by the Necromunda Farseer taking two Fire Dragon bodyguards. If they have the presence of a craftworld VIP, then it could happen - or if a Phoenix Lord would help with a skirmish the Pirate was involved in.

The specific wargear makes it hard for them to be used as a stand in unlike...


Guardians and Dark Eldar Warriors: these need not be specifically Guardians or Dark Eldar Warriors, but would be close to what the normal crewmen or boarding / fighting crew would be. Their options and less specific wargear lends them better.

Jetbikes: I think both work for stand ins.

Vehicles: The early Rogue Trader pirate army list had grav-attack vehicles. I don't think even normal sized tanks would be unusual for a pirate fleet that needed vehicles for some reason. Superheavies and Titans are probably out of bounds though, as they are more of a warhost thing. There are current canonical Eldar Corsair flyers from Forge World if I recall, so those are likely.

Wraithlords, Talos and similar constructs: Unlikely they would be able to sustain these or use them widely as they seem very tied to the 'culture' of Craftworld and Dark Eldar and don't seem to be that easy to 'take away'.

They can be used as a stand in for a more traditional Dreadnaught which Wraithlords originally were.

Iracundus
08-12-2010, 10:34
Vehicles: The early Rogue Trader pirate army list had grav-attack vehicles. I don't think even normal sized tanks would be unusual for a pirate fleet that needed vehicles for some reason. Superheavies and Titans are probably out of bounds though, as they are more of a warhost thing. There are current canonical Eldar Corsair flyers from Forge World if I recall, so those are likely.


Aeronautica Imperialis says Nightwings are often found in Corsair fleets. Imperial Armour Apocalypse II also depicts a Corsair raiding force datasheet featuring Phoenix bombers.

One could suppose Dark Eldar Razorwings (or craft functionally similar to them) might also feature, for ground attack roles.

Pontiff
08-12-2010, 11:01
For the earlier comment about what an Eldar rogue trader/pirate is likely to have:



There is a precedent for some to be sent on other types of mission set by the Necromunda Farseer taking two Fire Dragon bodyguards. If they have the presence of a craftworld VIP, then it could happen - or if a Phoenix Lord would help with a skirmish the Pirate was involved in.


That unfortunatley was a case of fantatic games only having a tiny budget for new models and being given some studio sculptors 'test piece' try out models as pretty much their miniature range for a while. So there you get Jervis trying to shoehorn ridiculous stuff like a farseer and fire dragon bodyguard into the necromunda background... the steel legion deserter 'sniper' is equally the result of making the best of models not considered good enough for main range and a lack of budget for anything else.

eldargal
08-12-2010, 11:35
From BFG Doom of the Eldar:

Unlike Eldar Pirates, who rely on the same self-serving
rogues who crew their ships to conduct raids and
boarding actions, Eldar craftworld vessels are able to go to
war carrying hosts of Eldar Aspect Warriors who form
fighting crews aboard their ships

This seems to indicate quite strongly that Eldar Pirates do not have access to Aspect Warriors. I wouldn't say that Pirates would never have access to Aspect Warriors, a Farseer might send a contingent if her Farseeing told her it would be pertinent. But it wouldn't be a regular thing.

WastedWhiteBoy
08-12-2010, 12:49
What do you guys and gals think about a crew for the ship? Reading the thread has sparked my interest.

For instance, look at a rogue trader. Especially I'd think with the more powerful ones, they can conceivably have a wide array of weaponry and followers at their aid. A rogue trader with a writ dating back to ancient times that has been in the family for thousands of years and is essentially allowed to go wherever, do whatever, and has enough fire power to make armies raise their eyebrows. So this human rogue trader could walk around in the finest armor, handle the finest xeno weaponry, have some eldar ranger at his side and some ork freebooters that chill in the orkish bar Grots N' Guzzlers til it is time to exploit some natives for cash.

Would eldar pirates and "rogue trader" do the same? Just like you'll see all human crews of human pirates, all ork pirate crews etc, there would be all eldar crews. But would you have some crews that are just a smattering of races and technology? Especially since eldar pirates have nobody to answer to, could you have maybe an eldar population/raiding base, but then that group of orks that loves speed so much even the outcasts from Saim Hann get a kick out of racing along side the eager, if lesser, green skins. The slug looking creature that is strangely enough very able to count massive amounts of cash very quickly, and is thus valued? The human pirate with his own small crew that is wanted in three imperial systems? A veteran dark eldar who isn't wanted in the Dark City anymore for reasons he, and probably you, would rather not know.

Might just be me, (and some might feel like it goes against the feel of 40k) but I enjoy the idea of those crews that just don't care. Doesn't matter what you are or were before; long as you like loot and can handle a weapon, welcome aboard. A group of vagabonds that might not necessarily get along, (and "accidents" might happen amongst the crew once in awhile) but as long as they and that eldar pirate lord sitting at his command desk sipping on thousand year old whiskey from Garm III profits, simple hatred can be overlooked.

Poseidal
08-12-2010, 12:52
Since Dark Eldar already have alien mercenaries working for them and hanging around Commoragh, I would imagine that several pirates would in some cases use aliens under their employ.

Silent_Moebius
08-12-2010, 12:53
I wouldn't say that Pirates would never have access to Aspect Warriors, a Farseer might send a contingent if her Farseeing told her it would be pertinent. But it wouldn't be a regular thing.

Hmm. When building a pirate list, then because of 100% fluff. Maybe also 110% ;)

I agree, that they might get some aspect warriors. In case of the eldar list, I would only go with dire avengers. Maybe two units, not more. They could represend the better trained crew. Or even represend themselves.

With Dark Eldar, I'm not so confirm. I wouldn't go with the haemonculus(?) and his "creations". Ok, you could argue, that a not so talent haemonculus got renegade and left Commorragh with the pirate archon, not to get killed by others. Could work, but sounds a little bit strange to me (like the farseer, sending 2x6 fire dragons with a serpent :D). But I would always go with the beast masters. They are fast and could be dropped by a transport before the battle begins.

I would also go with more long range weapons in both lists. Thinking of hiring always new crew men could be expensive. So, stay in range and shoot ;)

Speaking of that. What about TAU as Rogue Trader? Could it work for the higher good?

Edit:

Might just be me, (and some might feel like it goes against the feel of 40k) but I enjoy the idea of those crews that just don't care. Doesn't matter what you are or were before; long as you like loot and can handle a weapon, welcome aboard. A group of vagabonds that might not necessarily get along, (and "accidents" might happen amongst the crew once in awhile) but as long as they and that eldar pirate lord sitting at his command desk sipping on thousand year old whiskey from Garm III profits, simple hatred can be overlooked.

Yes!!!! That are exactly my thought. Maybe sitting there, staring to the dark grim and just smiling *yeah*

But how to build it at best? That is, what I'm searching for. I personly don't like it, when the rogue trader drives around in a chimera. C'mon, he could have had better equip. Changing the models is no problem. But you can't change the rules. So I'm looking for the best "start" position.

Tethylis
08-12-2010, 13:32
The old 2nd ed Eldar codex had unit entrys for pirates. They basically ranged from guardian type stats of WS/BS3 for the basic pirate grunt through to champions, heroes and mighty heroes topping out at WS/BS6 W3 I7. They also had access to more special equipment than their craftworlder equivalents, this was to represent their better access to looted equipment.

The old fluff from back then also makes mention of some pirates acting as power brokers among the imperium, hiring out their services to local planetry govenors. There was also talk of them working along side other xeno's and even raiding other eldar craftworlds on occasion!

So while pirates might not have direct access to entire host's aspect warriors they could be quite easily represented by a unit of veteran champions equiped up with carapace/power equivalent armour and fusion/missile launchers to count as fire dragons/dark reapers, ect.

My own craftworld (craftworld Tethys :p) at the time used to use a guardian capt as its leader, I still use use the model now as a counts as autarch in the new rules.

Poseidal
08-12-2010, 13:37
Before then they were the original Eldar force in 40k. There's an army list in the Book of the Astronomican and the basic race entry in the core book had rules.

They had stats that more or less correspond to a WHFB Elf (so WS/BS4, high I and Ld).

Yriel had a page, though he was helmeted and carried around a Shuriken Catapult.

Idaan
08-12-2010, 15:21
The main point of being a pirate is stealing things from other people. What would Eldar Pirates (or Corsairs as they're usually called) steal? I can't really see them raiding for weapons or money as they don't have any need for these. If there were some Dark Eldar among them, they might need slaves. But other than that - raw materials? Food? The Craftworlds get these from their colonies, and they make for a pretty unwieldy, not to mention boring, loot.

You might also want to check out "Edge of the Abyss" for the Rogue Trader RPG, as it goes into as much detail on Eldar Corsairs as it can without stepping on GW's heels.

Poseidal
08-12-2010, 15:27
I think part of the reason is the thrill for some, as they won't be getting the same experience from within the normal path system.

They seem to use noble titles (Lord Prince Yriel) so what they might want to 'steal' is ownership; regarding themselves as de facto leaders perhaps?

Idaan
08-12-2010, 15:35
Still, the Eldar are pretty utilitarian culture. Even the college graduates who take the gap year and go to Thailand to stare at waterfalls and beaches while stoned - the Rangers that is - are put to good use by the Craftworld. And with the distinction between Corsairs (government-sanctioned pirates) and Pirates (just pirates) I'd say they do work for the good of the Eldar society. Even if it's not their main activity.

SgtTaters
08-12-2010, 19:42
Pirates are a cool part of 40k history.

As for what pirates would loot, well think about what motivates them. Real Life pirates usually were the disenfranchised, desperate people that turn to thievery to make a living. Craftworld Eldar don't have that problem as the lifestyle is shown to be pretty comfortable. Comfortable, but boring. Instead CWE turn to the path of the outcast in search for excitement and adventure. So their primary motivation would be to have fun and explore, which can mean enjoying bloodshed and the subjugation of planets.

As for Aspect Warriors, why not? Keep in mind Yriel, the most famous Pirate Price was the Admiral of Iyanden on the Path of the Mariner. That is a very high up position, one that surely takes discipline and dedication. He left because of his pride and his men followed their captain into self imposed exile. So some aspect warriors going rogue and taking their armor with them is believable.

Some possible motivations: Aspect Warrior who begins to wonder what it's like to kill without his war mask on. The sensation of taking a life as his 'true self' gives him great satisfaction and so he leaves the craftworld and joins a Corsair warband to seek combat.

Exarch who disagrees with the seer's decision to withdraw from combat. His loyal students follow him in his pursuit against a Khornate Champion he wishes to slay in single combat. One of the souls that makes up the Exarch was close friends/siblings with a now notorious Pirate Prince and calls in a favor.

Survivors of a destroyed craftworld seek vengeance, a pirate prince sees the use of Khainite Warriors in his raids against the Imperium.
There's lots of ideas to work with.

Silent_Moebius
08-12-2010, 20:08
You might also want to check out "Edge of the Abyss" for the Rogue Trader RPG, as it goes into as much detail on Eldar Corsairs as it can without stepping on GW's heels.

Yes, I will. Thanks in Advance.


I think part of the reason is the thrill for some, as they won't be getting the same experience from within the normal path system.

Pirates are a cool part of 40k history...Comfortable, but boring.

This and this. And this again. I mean, it is a good question: why should an eldar turn around a become a pirate? In my opinion, it is said above: the normal life is boring. I mean, some eldar have socks, that are older than some races (:eek:). Maybe, some of them want a thrill. They even said from thereselves, that when they leave the path, they could fall back to Slaneesh. Ok, the Eldar Pirate I have in mind doesn't go such far, but the normal live is boring. So he goes away from the craftworld.

Here comes some problems: Now, your live is not such comfortable any more. You have to "work" for your food (steal it). You have to "work" for your equip (steal it). You have to "work" for repairs (no, trade the loot). You need fellowers. Some men, that do your orders. Why that all? The eldar pirate I'm thinking of is leaving the craftworld. Forever. Don't coming back. Or at least, maybe only to trade. But nothing more.

So, the other way round, where is all the fun in the warhammer 40K universe? All you see is races in war. All it is about is war. When you think, you make strategies, when you talk, you speak orders. When something is build, it is for war.

I prefer the thought, that WastedWhiteBoy said:
An Eldar pirate captain sitting with some of his men in the local bar in his main battle ship, drinking and laughing and telling each other storys. Some others of his crew are joining (orks, humans, tau, dark eldar) and it becomes a great event. Do, what ever you want. Do, when ever you want. This is great!

(Ok, it could also go all the way round. Making mistakes, attacking the false enemy, being captures, tortured and finally die. But hey, the life was fun. This is more than anybody in the hole warhammer 40K universe can speak of. Even the Big E wouldn't have so much fun like my pirate captain)

Silent_Moebius
10-12-2010, 08:24
So, after reading carefully the hole Dark Eldar Codex, I think, this will be core codex. You have fast ships and weird technology - fits perfect for a pirate.

So, what we got:

- Pirate Captain: Represented by an Archon. This is important, because of the court of the archon. Here you can convert all of them. We have: Medusae: Represented by a weird human psyker. The eyeweapon is then a psi attack (without psi test of course). The Ur-Ghuls can be represented by Kroot or by Orks. The Lhameans are only pleasure slaves. Take whatever you want (Maybe banshees. or something from the fantasy corner). Only not sure what to take with the Sslyths - maybe a trained beast tyranid style?
The last thing to say to the captain: maybe even take asdrubal. Why? He has a unique transport ship. This is the style, a real pirate captain want to have.
I think of a autarch to represent the captain as a model. Maybe with a bottle of alcohol in his hand?

- Veteran Crewmen: Kabalite Trueborn. That are Crewmen, which serve quit a long time. They are better equiped. Of course with a transport. Taking the normal models or maybe aspect models (to represent the elite).

- Crewmen: Really easy, that are from the stats Kabalite Warrirors. With Transports of course. Are the most troop selects. The beginners in the crew. Fresh meat! ;) . Take the normal kabalite model or maybe the guardmen from the eldar. Or maybe a infanterie squad from the Imperial Guard? All could be possible. The transport can also change: Take a Raider as a Raider or take a wave serpent (modified). Or a Tau skimmer. Many possibilies.

- Slaves: Maybe many won't tell that a good idea, but hey: listen :). Slaves are represented by whyches. Why? Whyches are more cc troops. Combat drugs sounds good for a slave meat shield. And only giving them a cc weapon and a pistol sound also right.The Hekatrix is the slave master. And with the dodge: The Slave Master (Hekatrix) has a wargear, that produces a shimmer shield to protect them and to fulfill the role as a meat shield (to protect the rest from cc).
I would only take one unit of them, for the fluff. Another point is, you can take as a slave model, whatever you want. Taking some Space Marines? No problem! They were such famished, that the stats will work (S3 T3). The power armor will be represented with a little more holes. And a missing shoulder pack.

- Xenos Mercs: Represented by Beast Masters. Here you can put everything in. The Beastmaster is the seargent / boss / exarch of the xeno-mob. As example: Kymerae: Rocket Boys of the Orks. The Beastmaster would be a rocket-boy-boss. (Rocket because of the "beast" ability). Clawed Fiends could be Kroot beasts. Or things that look like trained Tyranids. Razorwing Flocks are maybe human veterans with speacial war gear. (to get the rending. Maybe on spiky bikes: rending and beast ability).

- Fire Support: Of course, a pirate captain needs fire support. Here you can take Ravagers and / or the voidraven Bomber. Both fits perfectly for the pirate theme. You can take Illum Zars (with a little more dakka) for one model. Or a Tau hammerhead. Both are skimmer and fits (with a little conversion) very good.