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ErnieTheTermie
09-12-2010, 04:25
This thread is about the First Captains of the legions and their equivalents, at the start of the Horus Heresy.

The position of First Captain was a special one. Out of all the Companies of a legion, the First Captains were the highest ranking Astartes at the start of the Heresy. These men were exceptional fighters and diplomats, and were indeed as rare as the primarchs themselves: each legion had just one First Captain at a time, their premier Astartes warrior.

Please list the names of First Captains at the end of the Great Crusade, or any information you have on each of these warriors. I'll start us off:

Alpha Legion - First Captain Ingo Pech. Bore a striking resemblance to his primarch in terms of his physical and facial features. Pech is a huge Astartes, almost as large as his primarch himself. In Legion, he is compared to Thias Herzolg, Captain of the second company of the Alpha Legion, another huge primarch-lookalike: Herzolg is older, and ever so slightly taller, but Pech is stronger and smarter. He is seen in action during the Nurth and Hydra campaigns.

Sons of Horus - First Captain Ezekyle Abaddon. The famed Chaos warlord. He is the right hand of Horus himself. Defeated Garviel Loken on Isstvan III, though Loken came into the fight wounded from his battle with Kharn. Abaddon also resembles his primarch in facial features, along with dozens of other members of his legion due to "conformities in the geneseed". We all know Abaddon's story: famed warrior who loses it upon the death of his primarch. goes on to launch thirteen black Crusades.

Imperial Fists - First Captain Sigismund. He is a warrior who helped fortify the Palace on Terra and will play a big role in its defence later on. Defeated multiple Chaos Champions while defending the Palace on Terra in the final battle. Founded the Black Templars post-heresy.

***Emperor's Children -Lord Commander Eidolon - premier Lord Commander of the Emperor's Children. Having the finest martial record amongst the Emperor's Children, Eidolon excels in close combat and has had his vocal chords modified by Fabius Bile into producing a feral scream capable of stunning and shocking mortal men. He is skilled with both the power sword and hammer. When he faces off with Torgaddon in False Gods, Eidolon is described as the taller of the two. Since Torgaddon was the tallest member of the Mournival (yes bigger than Abaddon), Eidolon is therefore a truly gigantic Space Marine.

- First Captain Julius Kaesoron. Fell from grace into accepting worship of Slaanesh. Slew First Captain Gabriel Santar in single combat at the Dop Site Massacre of Isstvan V. After this, he stopped participating in the fighting and skipped around the battlefield, picking little pieces of flesh off enemy warriors and using these as fetishes to decorate his armour. Whatta wierdo! :)

***Kaesoron is First Captain but the company captains in the Emperor's Children report to the "Lord Commanders".

Night Lords - First Captain Sevatar (at Heresy start). Also known as the condemned. Quickly turns his back on the Emperor. If you have any more information on him or his final fate post it in this thread!

- First Captain Zso Sahaal (at Heresy end). The famed First Captain of Night Haunters legion. A vicious man who was to be Konrad Curze's successor, though in the end is stuck in a warpstorm for thousands of years. Not sure about his final fate...

Iron Hands - First Captain Gabriel Santar. Twice defeated and then slain by his counterpart from the Emperor's Children.

Death Guard - First Captain Calas Typhon. Eventually known as Typhus, he is a plague marine champion who uses a specialized reaper/scythe in combat. Typhus is reportedly abnormally large even by Space Marine standards. Captain Typhus knew full well that his fellow legionnaires would decay when they pledged themselves to Nurgle, and kept this information hidden from all, as he was already aligned with these ruinous powers.

Word Bearers - First Captain Kor Phaeron. Also known as 'Master of the Faith". A normal human, turned into an augmented Space marine (which makes him a rarity among the First Captains). Seemingly never acepted the Imperial Faith and clung to the old cult faith systems which lead him to manipulate Lorgar towards Chaos. As AlphariusOmegon20 pointed out, may have transcended the First Captaincy when he ascended into the Word Bearer's Reclusiarch (unofficial structure outside the chain of command). No replacement has been named.

**Iron Warriors - First Warsmith - Unknown.

- First Captain Forrix. Need more information on the First Captain of the famed Iron Warriors!

**It seems that the IW equivalent of First Captain would be the Warsmith of the First Grand Company. It is not known who this was at the time.

Blood Angels - It is likely that "Chapter Master" Raldoron was the legion's First Captain. He is shown to be a close advisor to his Primarch in False Gods. Later on, Raldoron is seen in action fighting at his Primarch's side against the army of a Khornate Daemon host.

Thousand Sons - It is likely that "Chief Librarian" Ahzek Ahriman is the First Captain of the Thousand Sons. If we get a second reference from someone to confirm the post on page 1 I'll finalize this. Of course, Ahriman is up there in power anyway as he has his Primarch's ear, and is the pre-eminent psyker in a legion of psykers.

World Eaters - First Captain - Unknown.

-Legion Master Ghreer. Led the War Hounds before the arrival of Angron. Referred to as "Old Ghreer" by Kharn, he was ripped apart by Angron when the enraged Primarch met with his legion.

-First Company Champion Kunnar. Also killed by Angron at his arrival.

It seems likely, though not certain, that Kharn is the leading ranked Astartes Captain following the events of After De'Shea. However he is still 8th Company Captain (plus Equerry) at Isstvan III, so it is uncertain whether or not there is another World Eater ranked above him at the Heresy start.

Dark Angels - Luther (position unknown). Second-in-Command of the legion. Also a modified human who survived the transformation procedure to full Astartes. Luther eventually becomes a Chaos champion full of warp energy who is almost the equal of his Primarch.

Feel free to expand upon the ones I mentioned with additional info, and to fill in the remainder of the First Captains from other legions. I'll edit this list with new entries/updates if necessary! :)

Dante101
09-12-2010, 05:52
This thread is about the First Captains of the legions at the start of the Horus Heresy.

The position of First Captain was a special one. Out of all the Companies of a legion, the First Captains were the highest ranking Astartes at the start of the Heresy. These men were exceptional fighters and diplomats, and were indeed as rare as the primarchs themselves: each legion had just one First Captain at a time, their premier Astartes warrior.

Please list the names of First Captains at the end of the Great Crusade, or any information you have on each of these warriors. I'll start us off:

Alpha Legion - First Captain Ingo Pech. Bore a striking resemblance to his primarch in terms of his physical and facial features. Pech is a huge Astartes, almost as large as his primarch himself. In Legion, he is compared to Thias Herzolg, Captain of the second company of the Alpha Legion, another huge primarch-lookalike: Herzolg is older, and ever so slightly taller, but Pech is stronger and smarter. He is seen in action during the Nurth and Hydra campaigns.

Sons of Horus - First Captain Ezekyle Abaddon. The famed Chaos warlord. He is the right hand of Horus himself. Defeated Garviel Loken on Isstvan III, though Loken came into the fight wounded from his battle with Kharn. Abaddon also resembles his primarch in facial features, along with dozens of other members of his legion due to "conformities in the geneseed". We all know Abaddon's story: famed warrior who loses it upon the death of his primarch. goes on to launch thirteen black Crusades.

Imperial Fists - First Captain Sigismund. He is a warrior who helped fortify the Palace on Terra and will play a big role in its defence later on.

***Emperor's Children - First Captain Julius Kaesoron. Fell from grace into accepting worship of Slaanesh. Slew First Captain Gabriel Santar in single combat at the Dop Site Massacre of Isstvan V. After this, he stopped participating in the fighting and skipped around the battlefield, picking little pieces of flesh off enemy warriors and using these as fetishes to decorate his armour. Whatta wierdo! :)

Night Lords - First Captain Zso Sahaal. The famed First Captain of Night Haunters legion. A vicious man who was to be Konrad Curze's successor, though in the end is stuck in a warpstorm for thousands of years. Not sure about his final fate...

Iron Hands - First Captain Gabriel Santar. Twice defeated and then slain by his counterpart from the Emperor's Children.

Death Guard - First Captain Typhus. Also known as Calas Typhon, he is a plague marine champion who uses a specialized reaper/scythe in combat. Typhus is reportedly abnormally large even by Space Marine standards.

***Kaesoron is First Captain but the company captains in the Emperor's Children report to the "Lord Commanders". I wonder if this includes the First Captain, in which case would a Lord Commander like Eidolon be ranked higher in terms of the martial heirarchy? If so, who then is the premier Lord Commander of the Emperor's Children?

Feel free to expand upon the ones I mentioned with additional info, and to fill in the remainder of the First Captains from other legions. I'll edit this list with new entries/updates if necessary! :)

Zso Sahaal was only made first captain after the previous one, Savatar, was killed during the Heresy. As of TFH, Savatar is still alive and is quite badass.

I believe Kor Phaeron is the first captain of the Word Bearers.

The thousand suns dont really have a first captain, just different psyker cults

shadowhawk2008
09-12-2010, 06:01
Zso Sahaal was only made first captain after the previous one, Savatar, was killed during the Heresy. As of TFH, Savatar is still alive and is quite badass.

I believe Kor Phaeron is the first captain of the Word Bearers.

The thousand suns dont really have a first captain, just different psyker cults

They may not call their most pre-eminent war commander by the title First Captain but Ahzek Ahriman is Chief Librarian of the Thousand Sons Legion which equates to the same thing among a legion of psykers.

I believe Kor Phaeron is often referred to as the Master of the Faith or some such and is indeed the Word Bearer's First Captain.

rob1992
09-12-2010, 08:07
***Emperor's Children -
***Kaesoron is First Captain but the company captains in the Emperor's Children report to the "Lord Commanders". I wonder if this includes the First Captain, in which case would a Lord Commander like Eidolon be ranked higher in terms of the martial heirarchy? If so, who then is the premier Lord Commander of the Emperor's Children?
The Lord Commanders definitely outrank the captains. Eidolon is the premier Lord Commander, it's in the first part of Fulgrim when describing the campaign. It's mentioned that although Eidolon outranked Vespasian, Vespasian took command as Eidolon had led the last campaign.

I also have a feeling that the first Captain of the Blood Angels is mentioned in Fulgrim, but I have no idea what his name is. Somebody can probably help with that.

Edit: Ahriman is definitely considered to be first Captain equivalent as he takes charge of the Scarab Occult (the Terminators, I think that's their name) at the start of the book and leads the ritual conference thing part way through when all the Captains/Librarians talk to Magnus.

Nazguire
09-12-2010, 08:07
This thread is about the First Captains of the legions at the start of the Horus Heresy.

The position of First Captain was a special one. Out of all the Companies of a legion, the First Captains were the highest ranking Astartes at the start of the Heresy. These men were exceptional fighters and diplomats, and were indeed as rare as the primarchs themselves: each legion had just one First Captain at a time, their premier Astartes warrior.

Please list the names of First Captains at the end of the Great Crusade, or any information you have on each of these warriors. I'll start us off:

Alpha Legion - First Captain Ingo Pech. Bore a striking resemblance to his primarch in terms of his physical and facial features. Pech is a huge Astartes, almost as large as his primarch himself. In Legion, he is compared to Thias Herzolg, Captain of the second company of the Alpha Legion, another huge primarch-lookalike: Herzolg is older, and ever so slightly taller, but Pech is stronger and smarter. He is seen in action during the Nurth and Hydra campaigns.

Sons of Horus - First Captain Ezekyle Abaddon. The famed Chaos warlord. He is the right hand of Horus himself. Defeated Garviel Loken on Isstvan III, though Loken came into the fight wounded from his battle with Kharn. Abaddon also resembles his primarch in facial features, along with dozens of other members of his legion due to "conformities in the geneseed". We all know Abaddon's story: famed warrior who loses it upon the death of his primarch. goes on to launch thirteen black Crusades.

Imperial Fists - First Captain Sigismund. He is a warrior who helped fortify the Palace on Terra and will play a big role in its defence later on.

***Emperor's Children - First Captain Julius Kaesoron. Fell from grace into accepting worship of Slaanesh. Slew First Captain Gabriel Santar in single combat at the Dop Site Massacre of Isstvan V. After this, he stopped participating in the fighting and skipped around the battlefield, picking little pieces of flesh off enemy warriors and using these as fetishes to decorate his armour. Whatta wierdo! :)

Night Lords - First Captain Zso Sahaal. The famed First Captain of Night Haunters legion. A vicious man who was to be Konrad Curze's successor, though in the end is stuck in a warpstorm for thousands of years. Not sure about his final fate...

Iron Hands - First Captain Gabriel Santar. Twice defeated and then slain by his counterpart from the Emperor's Children.

Death Guard - First Captain Typhus. Also known as Calas Typhon, he is a plague marine champion who uses a specialized reaper/scythe in combat. Typhus is reportedly abnormally large even by Space Marine standards.

***Kaesoron is First Captain but the company captains in the Emperor's Children report to the "Lord Commanders". I wonder if this includes the First Captain, in which case would a Lord Commander like Eidolon be ranked higher in terms of the martial heirarchy? If so, who then is the premier Lord Commander of the Emperor's Children?

Feel free to expand upon the ones I mentioned with additional info, and to fill in the remainder of the First Captains from other legions. I'll edit this list with new entries/updates if necessary! :)

Ahzek Ahriman is in charge of the First Company. It says this in A Thousand Sons. Second in power only to Magnus within the Legion.

Eidolon is the senior Lord Commander pre-Heresy, equal with Vespasian in terms of authority. Heresy time, presumably he is the pre-eminent Lord Commander. Lucius starts to climb the ranks at this time.

Pretty sure that Argus Brom is the First Captain of the World Eaters. Though this was off Lexicanum so I'm sure Iracundus will be along to correct me.

Bjorn the Fell-Handed (not sure about Prospero Burns) is in charge of the Wolf Guard. So seeing as the First Company is also the Great Wolf's company (At this stage, Russ) he'd be the equivalent of a First Captain, yes?

Night Lords Captain at the start of the Heresy was Sevater, the first bro to yell "Death to the False Emperor" (ADB gives Night Lords all the cool stuff.) Wore flayed skin of his enemies, presumably to terrify people. And stuff.

Wasn't Jubal Khan the guy in charge of the First Company, or is that something else I'm thinking of?

Raldoron was captain of Sanguinius' 'Protectors' whatever they are (not Sanguinary Guard, as that was Azkaellon, and Raldoron is not described as wearing all that equipment on his person) The Protectors may very well be the First Company's nickname, similar to the Justaerin, or the Devourers.

Ultramarines is a mystery, but there is a Captain Ventanus and Captain Marius Gage mentioned, with no company numbers attached. Any of those guys could have been First Captain.

Londinium
09-12-2010, 08:11
I thought Kharn was the First Captain or equivalent within the World Eater, it's been ages since I read Galaxy in Flames though. It's certainly mentioned that he is a restraining influence upon his Primarch and he's the highest ranking officer left in the story 'After Desh'ea' so I'd assume it's Kharn and not Brom.

Nazguire
09-12-2010, 08:16
I thought Kharn was the First Captain or equivalent within the World Eater, it's been ages since I read Galaxy in Flames though. It's certainly mentioned that he is a restraining influence upon his Primarch and he's the highest ranking officer left in the story 'After Desh'ea' so I'd assume it's Kharn and not Brom.

Kharn is still 8th Company Captain by the time of Galaxy in Flames at least.

Londinium
09-12-2010, 08:22
Kharn is still 8th Company Captain by the time of Galaxy in Flames at least.

Hmmm might be a little continuity error there then, considering he is the highest ranking officer left After Desh'ea once Angron has had his way with the others. Unless Kharn did something very naughty in the period between then and Istvaan you'd assume he'd be First Captain. I hate being at University and not being able to double check my books :rolleyes:

Nazguire
09-12-2010, 08:31
Hmmm might be a little continuity error there then, considering he is the highest ranking officer left After Desh'ea once Angron has had his way with the others. Unless Kharn did something very naughty in the period between then and Istvaan you'd assume he'd be First Captain. I hate being at University and not being able to double check my books :rolleyes:

The way I look at it is that there would have been someone in the First Company ready to step up to the bat to be First Captain during that stage. And as we see with other Legions, not being First Captain doesn't mean you don't hold sway with the Primarch of said Legion (Captain Efried in the Fists, Captain Aethon in the Ultramarines, Captain Argel Tal with the Word Bearers, etc)

Lupe
09-12-2010, 09:17
Hmmm might be a little continuity error there then, considering he is the highest ranking officer left After Desh'ea once Angron has had his way with the others. Unless Kharn did something very naughty in the period between then and Istvaan you'd assume he'd be First Captain. I hate being at University and not being able to double check my books :rolleyes:

Why? He gets to be the primarch's best friend and personal equerry. He doesn't need to be reassigned to a different company for that. Loken for instance didn't get bumped to one of the first four companies when he made it into the Mournival, either.

shadowhawk2008
09-12-2010, 10:56
Eidolon is the senior Lord Commander pre-Heresy, equal with Vespasian in terms of authority. Heresy time, presumably he is the pre-eminent Lord Commander. Lucius starts to climb the ranks at this time.

Bjorn the Fell-Handed (not sure about Prospero Burns) is in charge of the Wolf Guard. So seeing as the First Company is also the Great Wolf's company (At this stage, Russ) he'd be the equivalent of a First Captain, yes?

Raldoron was captain of Sanguinius' 'Protectors' whatever they are (not Sanguinary Guard, as that was Azkaellon, and Raldoron is not described as wearing all that equipment on his person) The Protectors may very well be the First Company's nickname, similar to the Justaerin, or the Devourers.

It's either in Galaxy in Flames or Flight of The Eisenstein that Saul Tarvitz of the Emperor's Children is referred to as First Captain Tarvitz. Although that could just be a mistake on the author's part. In either case the legion's Lord Commanders are the highest ranked astartes and they also serve as the Primarch's personal advisers.

I can't recall where but Bjorn is mentioned in fluff as being the youngest of the warriors promoted to Russ' Wolfguard. That would hardly qualify him as a First Captain since he is not even a Wolf Lord until after the disappearance of Russ when he became Great Wolf. At that time he was the only remaining companion of Russ.

Raldoron is often enough mentioned as Chapter Master Raldoron and given that he was often at the Primarch's side and even attended the Council of Nikaea, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to consider him First Captain until a future Heresy novel contradicts that assumption. And since Azkaellon is said to have supervised the division of the Blood Angels Legion into chapters he would be the highest ranking Blood Angel left at the end of the Heresy.

Also, in James Swallow's Red Fury Raldoron is mentioned as having fought next to the Primarch against swarms of daemons and is the one who bore the Primarch's sarcophagus and also the one who built the Primarch's shrine within the Fortress-Monastery.

Jerrus
09-12-2010, 11:33
Ultramarines is a mystery, but there is a Captain Ventanus and Captain Marius Gage mentioned, with no company numbers attached. Any of those guys could have been First Captain.
Wasn't Orar First Captain of the Ultramarines?

Dead.Blue.Clown
09-12-2010, 11:39
Night Lords - First Captain Zso Sahaal. The famed First Captain of Night Haunters legion. A vicious man who was to be Konrad Curze's successor, though in the end is stuck in a warpstorm for thousands of years. Not sure about his final fate...

As others have noted, the First Captain of the Night Lords is Sevatar the Condemned.


Death Guard - First Captain Typhus. Also known as Calas Typhon, he is a plague marine champion who uses a specialized reaper/scythe in combat. Typhus is reportedly abnormally large even by Space Marine standards.

Got this one a little backwards. He's Calas Typhon, later known as Typhus. Odd to list his post-Heresy name first, when everyone else gets their Imperial names.

narrativium
09-12-2010, 11:55
It's either in Galaxy in Flames or Flight of The Eisenstein that Saul Tarvitz of the Emperor's Children is referred to as First Captain Tarvitz. Although that could just be a mistake on the author's part. In either case the legion's Lord Commanders are the highest ranked astartes and they also serve as the Primarch's personal advisers. No, he's just a captain. At the time of Horus Rising he was a new member of Fulgrim's inner circle, so unlikely to reach First Captain position in so short a time.

Nazguire
09-12-2010, 11:58
Wasn't Orar First Captain of the Ultramarines?

Negative. He was just 'a captain of renown' within the Ultramarines.


Kaesoron was the Emperor's Children First Captain, who turned into a delirious, mangled nutcase by the end of Istvaan. Unless Swallow meant that Tarvitz was THE Captain of his company, in which he wasn't a sub-captain like Ekkadon in the Luna Wolves was, then it's a typo.

Also, regarding Raldoron: this fits in with my theory that Raldoron's Protectors was just another nickname for the company. But time will tell.

Sevatar the Condemned. What a cool name :)

shadowhawk2008
09-12-2010, 14:27
No, he's just a captain. At the time of Horus Rising he was a new member of Fulgrim's inner circle, so unlikely to reach First Captain position in so short a time.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Saul_Tarvitz

Gimp
09-12-2010, 15:00
First Captain Sigismund wore the now Black Templars armour.

During the Siege of Terra he became the Emperors Champion and slew numerous Chaos Champions one of which was hinted as being Kharn

Goosey_J
09-12-2010, 15:10
First Captain Sigismund wore the now Black Templars armour.

During the Siege of Terra he became the Emperors Champion and slew numerous Chaos Champions one of which was hinted as being Kharn

I seriously cannot wait for the book that has Sigismund as it's protagonist. One of the coolest Space Marines of all time.

MarshalFaust
09-12-2010, 15:30
Sigismund's personal guard or perhaps even the Imperial Fists 1st company were known then as the Templars and may have even worn the black and white armor. i know they at least bore the templar iconography.

I believe the Horus Heresy: Collected Visions places Captain Forrix as the 1st captain or equivalent for the Iron Warriors.

AlphariusOmegon20
09-12-2010, 15:51
I believe Kor Phaeron is the first captain of the Word Bearers.






I believe Kor Phaeron is often referred to as the Master of the Faith or some such and is indeed the Word Bearer's First Captain.

Not quite, but close.

Kor HAD been the First Captain, but moved into the Reclusiarch way before the HH happened. Kor became Master of the Faith, the highest rank in the WB Reclusiarch, just prior to the Word Bearers' dedication to the Ruinous Powers. It was Kor's subtle manipulations that pushed Lorgar into turning his back on the Emperor, and thus, the WB followed their leader into Chaos.

Kor's replacement as First Captain was never named, to my knowledge.




I believe the Horus Heresy: Collected Visions places Captain Forrix as the 1st captain or equivalent for the Iron Warriors.

Forrix was First Captain of the IW.




Alpha Legion - First Captain Ingo Pech. Bore a striking resemblance to his primarch in terms of his physical and facial features. Pech is a huge Astartes, almost as large as his primarch himself. In Legion, he is compared to Thias Herzolg, Captain of the second company of the Alpha Legion, another huge primarch-lookalike: Herzolg is older, and ever so slightly taller, but Pech is stronger and smarter. He is seen in action during the Nurth and Hydra campaigns.

Pech was First Captain, but Sheed Ranko was Captain of the Lernaean Terminators, suggesting a different Force Org than normal.

Dead.Blue.Clown
09-12-2010, 16:05
Not quite, but close.

Kor HAD been the First Captain, but moved into the Reclusiarch way before the HH happened. Kor became Master of the Faith, the highest rank in the WB Reclusiarch, just prior to the Word Bearers' dedication to the Ruinous Powers.

Not quite.

Even during the Horus Heresy, Kor Phaeron is still First Captain of the Word Bearers, and one of his titles is Master of the Faith, just as how many other high-ranking commanders have secondary titles in the Legions (and Chapters later on).

Over time, as the Heresy carries on, he tends to be known more for his title, rather than his official rank, until in the post-Heresy centuries, it bleeds out of use completely. But during the Heresy itself, he's still the First Captain - he's just the Master of the Faith as well.

AlphariusOmegon20
09-12-2010, 16:24
Not quite.

Even during the Horus Heresy, Kor Phaeron is still First Captain of the Word Bearers, and one of his titles is Master of the Faith, just as how many other high-ranking commanders have secondary titles in the Legions (and Chapters later on).

Over time, as the Heresy carries on, he tends to be known more for his title, rather than his official rank, until in the post-Heresy centuries, it bleeds out of use completely. But during the Heresy itself, he's still the First Captain - he's just the Master of the Faith as well.

Umm, no, I'm afraid you are wrong. Sorry ADB.

The source I cite is the Index Astartes article on the Word Bearers. It is clear Kor LEFT the normal ranks and joined the reclusiarchy of the Word Bearers.

Quoted from the article:


Upon his elevation to a Space Marine, Kor Phaeron became Lorgar's second in command, leading the the First Company of the Word Bearers. Even in a Legion of zealots, Kor Phaeron stood out, and it was inevitable the Legion's Chaplains would pick him for further devotional training. Immersed in religious study, Kor Phaeron's zeal rose to new heights and the warriors he led fought with ferocity unmatched by any of their brethren. Kor advanced quickly though the Chaplaincy, the speed of his assimilation of holy texts beyond all mortal comprehension.

The Reclusiarchy has always been outside the normal force organization, even before the the HH. Thus he would have had to have left the normal Force Org to become a Chaplain.

Kor was a Chaplain at the time of the HH, not a First Captain. I've found no evidence to suggest he stayed First Captain after he was picked for further study.

If you have info that shows he did, I'd like to see it, if you don't mind posting it.

ErnieTheTermie
09-12-2010, 16:43
Zso Sahaal was only made first captain after the previous one, Savatar, was killed during the Heresy. As of TFH, Savatar is still alive and is quite badass.

I believe Kor Phaeron is the first captain of the Word Bearers.

The thousand suns dont really have a first captain, just different psyker cults

Thanks for this, I forgot about Sevatar. Any information on him, or his eventual fate? I'll edit the original post so we get a complete list.

ErnieTheTermie
09-12-2010, 17:05
Why? He gets to be the primarch's best friend and personal equerry. He doesn't need to be reassigned to a different company for that. Loken for instance didn't get bumped to one of the first four companies when he made it into the Mournival, either.

Quite right, he didn't get bumped up, even though there was a vacancy in the Fourth due to Hastur Sejanus kicking the bucket. :p

ErnieTheTermie
09-12-2010, 17:10
Not quite, but close.

Kor HAD been the First Captain, but moved into the Reclusiarch way before the HH happened. Kor became Master of the Faith, the highest rank in the WB Reclusiarch, just prior to the Word Bearers' dedication to the Ruinous Powers. It was Kor's subtle manipulations that pushed Lorgar into turning his back on the Emperor, and thus, the WB followed their leader into Chaos.

Kor's replacement as First Captain was never named, to my knowledge.



Forrix was First Captain of the IW.



Pech was First Captain, but Sheed Ranko was Captain of the Lernaean Terminators, suggesting a different Force Org than normal.

Thanks for your input AO20, great stuff!

As far as Ranko goes, I believe he is *just* the Captain of the Termie elites, equivalent to "the Widdowmaker" Falkus Kibre of the Sons of Horus. At least that's what I got from the text, having just read Legion myself.

On that note, Ranko appears to be the largest of the Alpha Legion's abnormally large "Primarch marine look-alikes". He is described as being "easily as large" as the Primarch himself (which turns out to be Omegon in that scene), while pretending to be a line officer named Omegon.:cool:

ErnieTheTermie
09-12-2010, 17:14
Pretty sure that Argus Brom is the First Captain of the World Eaters. Though this was off Lexicanum so I'm sure Iracundus will be along to correct me.


Anyone confirm this?

Dead.Blue.Clown
09-12-2010, 17:49
If you have info that shows he did, I'd like to see it, if you don't mind posting it.

Zeh First Heretic, and the HH series itself.

It's not much of a change, but the IA article is a little out of date now. Kor Phaeron's advancement will obviously show up in other Heresy novels, but he's still First Captain - albeit, with his own twist to the rank - up until the Dropsite Massacre, and the Heresy's outbreak.

Lupe
09-12-2010, 18:06
Zeh First Heretic, and the HH series itself.

It's not much of a change, but the IA article is a little out of date now. Kor Phaeron's advancement will obviously show up in other Heresy novels, but he's still First Captain - albeit, with his own twist to the rank - up until the Dropsite Massacre, and the Heresy's outbreak.

Quite. This part gave it away that the IA is slightly outdated.


Upon his elevation to a Space Marine, Kor Phaeron became Lorgar's second in command, leading the the First Company of the Word Bearers..

But then again, why would there even be chaplains before Lorgar comes on board? He's the bloke that came up with the idea, and when he finally implements it, I'm quite sure he wouldn't mind his closest friend being a Chaplain and First Captain at the same time. It's probably only after the Heresy that alarm bells started ringing and Space marines realized that Chaplains would be better suited to tempering the Captains.

MarshalFaust
09-12-2010, 18:13
so is the Forrix that is 1st captain during the heresy the same Forrix in Storm of Iron? he seems to have been demoted as the Warsmith certainly outranks him and he seems to be on the same level as both Kroeger and Honsou. actually the entire iron warriors hierarchy confuses me.

HK-47
09-12-2010, 19:05
As others have noted, the First Captain of the Night Lords is Sevatar the Condemned.

Quick question: Was Sevatar Terran? In fact what happened to the Terran Night Lords?

Dead.Blue.Clown
09-12-2010, 19:11
Quick question: Was Sevatar Terran? In fact what happened to the Terran Night Lords?

Naw, Sevatar's not Terran.

Terrans were around (Lord of the Night mentions it, as I recall), but I suspect - given the nature of the Legion - that Nostramans came to reshape, define and lead the Night Lords extremely quickly after the planet was rediscovered.

Dante101
09-12-2010, 19:51
so is the Forrix that is 1st captain during the heresy the same Forrix in Storm of Iron? he seems to have been demoted as the Warsmith certainly outranks him and he seems to be on the same level as both Kroeger and Honsou. actually the entire iron warriors hierarchy confuses me.

I wondered about this as well- but the fact that they only called the deamon prince "the warsmith" for some reason seemed to indicate to me that he was porturabo himself- though I guess who knows. Id also like to point out that Forrix showed no signs of corruption- maybe he wasnt as powerfull or as influential BECAUSE he was one of the IW who viewed chaos as a tool. Maybe this shows how the IW had slowly changed over time

Dante101
09-12-2010, 19:55
also, since ADB seems to be following this thread, ill take a moment to sing his praises.

Very good work on TFH, I don't bother reading any BL stuff anymore unless its by you ,Dan Abnett, or sandy mitchell (i love the antihero protagonist in a 40k setting). Keep on doing what your doing bro

Lupe
09-12-2010, 20:19
I wondered about this as well- but the fact that they only called the deamon prince "the warsmith" for some reason seemed to indicate to me that he was porturabo himself- though I guess who knows. Id also like to point out that Forrix showed no signs of corruption- maybe he wasnt as powerfull or as influential BECAUSE he was one of the IW who viewed chaos as a tool. Maybe this shows how the IW had slowly changed over time

As far as I remember, the Warsmith isn't Perturabo, because he only ascends to daemonhood at the end of the book.

However, Forrix is said to have once been an idealist. That he had once waged war with the hope that it was for a greater cause. At some point he begins the inevitable slide down the slope of cynicism and becomes so bitter and jaded that he simply stops caring. About anything. So, in this self pitying state, even the First Captain - although I'm not sure he's ever mentioned as the head of the First Company - might be outmaneuverered by more ambitious champions.

Yeah, it kinda shows how the Iron Warriors have changed. Some succumb to hopelessness. Some just want more power to vent their frustrations.

MarshalFaust
09-12-2010, 20:29
The Warsmith definitely wasn't Perterabo, after Honsou becomes warsmith he goes to war with two other older warsmiths. In Storm of Iron Forrix was the 1st captain of whichever grand company they were a part of(i dont remember if it says). it seems that the heirarchy is:

Warsmith: command of Grand Company
and under him are 3 captains in command of a company each

there is also the possibility that there is more than 1 first company in the iron warriors legion. there could be a first company for every grand company.

but I suspect its just a continuity error or maybe Forrix F'd it up really bad during the heresy and lost his job. or it could be a different Forrix, maybe Forrix is like the name John on Olympia. at any rate i cant wait until they shed some light on the inner workings of the iron warriors in the HH books.

edit: Lupe I actually like the idea that he just doesn't care anymore and has no ambition but just fights on because he literally cannot do anything else.

SultanBaal
09-12-2010, 21:32
In regards to Sevatar, in the First Heretic after Curze intervenes between Corax and Lorgar's fight, Corax leaves in the direction of were Sevatar is and Curze tells him to stop Corax from joining up with the the rest of the Raven Guard. So that may explain his absence after this point. just my two cents

Goosey_J
09-12-2010, 22:01
Sevatar is *********** cool. Even if he is only mentioned breifly in TFH. I seriously hope he survived the Istvaan drop site Massacre. As much as I love Corax, seriously hoping he didn't scatter Sevatar's jiblets all over the killing fields.

Dead.Blue.Clown
09-12-2010, 22:17
In regards to Sevatar, in the First Heretic after Curze intervenes between Corax and Lorgar's fight, Corax leaves in the direction of were Sevatar is and Curze tells him to stop Corax from joining up with the the rest of the Raven Guard.

Sevatar, though he tries, doesn't quite manage to do that.



Sevatar is *********** cool. Even if he is only mentioned breifly in TFH. I seriously hope he survived the Istvaan drop site Massacre. As much as I love Corax, seriously hoping he didn't scatter Sevatar's jiblets all over the killing fields.

Whereas on the flip side of the coin, Corax didn't manage to do that.

Sev's got a lot left to do before he croaks, no doubts on that score.

ErnieTheTermie
09-12-2010, 22:38
Sevatar, though he tries, doesn't quite manage to do that.




Whereas on the flip side of the coin, Corax didn't manage to do that.

Sev's got a lot left to do before he croaks, no doubts on that score.

Wow, I didn't realize Aaron posted on here! Are you the real article?

I have to say, Soul Hunter is, to this day, one of my all-time favourite 40k books. As far as the HH novels go, I just finished Legion then Nemesis, so First Heretic is next. :evilgrin:

Back to your post, does Sevatar actually fight Corax (as in, close combat)? I sincerely hope Night Haunter is smarter than sending a First Captain (as tough as they are) to try and beat down a Primarch...it's not gonna happen. :wtf:

Goosey_J
09-12-2010, 22:39
Sevatar, though he tries, doesn't quite manage to do that.




Whereas on the flip side of the coin, Corax didn't manage to do that.

Sev's got a lot left to do before he croaks, no doubts on that score.

Awesome :)
Love your books by the way. You and Abnett are the kings of Black Library. Kick Ben Counter in the nuts for me when you see him. Battle For The Abyss was terrible -_-

Culgore
09-12-2010, 22:58
Death Guard - First Captain Typhus. Also known as Calas Typhon, he is a plague marine champion who uses a specialized reaper/scythe in combat. Typhus is reportedly abnormally large even by Space Marine standards.



This comes from the previous CSM codex. Captain Typhon was pretty much leads the Death Guard to damnation. He is communing with the warp well before the events of the Heresy. He is He delivers the legion to Nurgle when he kills the legion's navigators, this gets them stuck in the warp and transformed by Nurgle.

"When Mortarion, Primarch of the Death Guard, allied his legion with the forces of Warmaster Horus he did not know the price that would be paid for his decision. One amongst the Death Guard knew full well though, his name was Typhon..."

ErnieTheTermie
09-12-2010, 23:11
The Warsmith definitely wasn't Perterabo, after Honsou becomes warsmith he goes to war with two other older warsmiths. In Storm of Iron Forrix was the 1st captain of whichever grand company they were a part of(i dont remember if it says). it seems that the heirarchy is:

Warsmith: command of Grand Company
and under him are 3 captains in command of a company each

there is also the possibility that there is more than 1 first company in the iron warriors legion. there could be a first company for every grand company.

but I suspect its just a continuity error or maybe Forrix F'd it up really bad during the heresy and lost his job. or it could be a different Forrix, maybe Forrix is like the name John on Olympia. at any rate i cant wait until they shed some light on the inner workings of the iron warriors in the HH books.

edit: Lupe I actually like the idea that he just doesn't care anymore and has no ambition but just fights on because he literally cannot do anything else.

Indeed. Unless these are two different Captain Forrixes, it seems that the Warsmith of the first Grand Company would be the IW equivalent to the First Captain. So this is not Captain Forrix, unless someone who has read the Collected Visions can enlighten us.

SultanBaal
09-12-2010, 23:12
Also if I remember, He sold his soul to Nurgle so that he could be become the First Captain of the Death Guard and also to hide his psyker abilites.

Sandlemad
09-12-2010, 23:26
First Captain Sigismund wore the now Black Templars armour.

During the Siege of Terra he became the Emperors Champion and slew numerous Chaos Champions one of which was hinted as being Kharn

This is accurate but highlights how tricky figuring out the most important Astartes in a legion can be. The Templars seems to have been the name of the Imperial Fists 1st Company but there's another elite body in the legion: the Huscarls, Dorn's bodyguard.
Same with the Blood Angels and Raldoron, as suggested in this thread; there was the 1st Company/Chapter (Raldoron's Protectors?) but then there was also the Sanguinary Guard, led by Askellon.

Some Luna Wolves captains were favoured above others by induction into the Mournival and then some might not even lead companies, eg. Abaddon being first captain but his own Justaerin terminators being led by Captain Kibre.
And as pointed out, it gets even murkier with the Emperor's Children and their multiple Lord Commanders, Captains; different levels of high-up Astartes jockeying for favour. Presumably the leader of the Phoenix Guard was also a contender.

Evilmerlin
10-12-2010, 00:45
Do the Space Wolves even have a 1st Captain equivalent in the ranks?

Goosey_J
10-12-2010, 00:49
Do the Space Wolves even have a 1st Captain equivalent in the ranks?

Yes, it's Wolfgart MCWolfson, Wolf Lord of the Great Wolf company. Duh.

SultanBaal
10-12-2010, 01:45
The Wolf Lord of the 13th Great Company during the Heresy was Bulveye, and the 13th was made up of the Thanes that followed Russ during before the Emperor came, so he might of been closet to a First Captain that we know of.

Chem-Dog
10-12-2010, 02:13
The thousand suns dont really have a first captain, just different psyker cults

As others have said...Definitely put Ahzek Ahriman in the top spot for the Thousand Sons



Eidolon is the senior Lord Commander pre-Heresy, equal with Vespasian in terms of authority. Heresy time, presumably he is the pre-eminent Lord Commander. Lucius starts to climb the ranks at this time.


Although Codex: Chaos Space Marines has Lucius as a Lord Commander by the time of Istvaan.



http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Saul_Tarvitz

It's dangerous using Lexicanum as a fluff source, I've found unofficial homebrew stuff in there.


Sigismund's personal guard or perhaps even the Imperial Fists 1st company were known then as the Templars and may have even worn the black and white armor. i know they at least bore the templar iconography.

IIRC During the Heresy Sigismund alone wears the black armour of the Emperor's Champion. Subsequently when the Legions were broken up those who Siggy led adopted the colours and name.



Kor's replacement as First Captain was never named, to my knowledge.

I was tempted to say Argel Tal at the head of the Gal Vorbak until I read this...


Umm, no, I'm afraid you are wrong. Sorry ADB.


And Lulld


This is accurate but highlights how tricky figuring out the most important Astartes in a legion can be. The Templars seems to have been the name of the Imperial Fists 1st Company but there's another elite body in the legion: the Huscarls, Dorn's bodyguard.

Huscarl is a term for bodyguards yeah, I'd say these troops stand outside of the normal legion organisation (if such a term can be applied to 18 different legions each with their own customs and structure.


Same with the Blood Angels and Raldoron, as suggested in this thread; there was the 1st Company/Chapter (Raldoron's Protectors?) but then there was also the Sanguinary Guard, led by Askellon.

Again a Bodyguard unit outside of the normal bounds of the Legion's structure. Another example would be Mortarion's Death Shroud.


Some Luna Wolves captains were favoured above others by induction into the Mournival and then some might not even lead companies, eg. Abaddon being first captain but his own Justaerin terminators being led by Captain Kibre.
I seem to remember it being said that Kibre is essentially a second for Abbers for when his Mournival duties make his presence with his Company impossible. I'm sure more than one of the Mournival have the same system in place.



And as pointed out, it gets even murkier with the Emperor's Children and their multiple Lord Commanders, Captains; different levels of high-up Astartes jockeying for favour. Presumably the leader of the Phoenix Guard was also a contender.

I had always assumed that a Lord Commander within the EC was a higher ranking individual, above the Company Commanders/Captains (or Line Captains as Horus Rising has it) They wouldn't be burdened with the command of a Company as such and would have the job of advisor, equerry, messenger, proxy or whatever Fulgrim required of them.
Again I'd place the Phoenix Guard outside of the Legions structure.

Dante101
10-12-2010, 03:46
From reading all this I think the important thing to remember that before the Codex Astartes, the legion hierarchy was really up to the whims of a particular Primarch. As we have seen, each primarch really had a cirlce his "favorites" who had his ear, and thus their "rank" within the legion really didn't matter due to the fact that they had influence over the primarch. A great example is the half heard- while he technically had a high rank, no one listed to him anymore.

ErnieTheTermie
10-12-2010, 03:59
As others have said...Definitely put Ahzek Ahriman in the top spot for the Thousand Sons

...

Alright, alright, Ahriman is getting enough love, I get it. :D

Thanks for all your insight.


The Wolf Lord of the 13th Great Company during the Heresy was Bulveye, and the 13th was made up of the Thanes that followed Russ during before the Emperor came, so he might of been closet to a First Captain that we know of.

Maybe it's me, but I would think that the Captain of the 1st Great Company would be, by default, the First Captain?

FabricatorGeneralMike
10-12-2010, 04:30
To ADB, I just hope you can keep the title "Sevtars bad day". You got the clout use it. You know you want to ;).

Dead.Blue.Clown
10-12-2010, 10:01
Quite. This part gave it away that the IA is slightly outdated.

But then again, why would there even be chaplains before Lorgar comes on board? He's the bloke that came up with the idea, and when he finally implements it, I'm quite sure he wouldn't mind his closest friend being a Chaplain and First Captain at the same time. It's probably only after the Heresy that alarm bells started ringing and Space marines realized that Chaplains would be better suited to tempering the Captains.

Yeah. I'm always keen to cleave to past canon, but when stuff is directly outdated, there's not much you can do beyond a quiet retcon.


Wow, I didn't realize Aaron posted on here! Are you the real article?

I have to say, Soul Hunter is, to this day, one of my all-time favourite 40k books. As far as the HH novels go, I just finished Legion then Nemesis, so First Heretic is next. :evilgrin:

Thanks, dude. Muchos gracias. Though, well, if I was faking, I'd pretend to be someone nice, who didn't come with an attitude problem.


Back to your post, does Sevatar actually fight Corax (as in, close combat)? I sincerely hope Night Haunter is smarter than sending a First Captain (as tough as they are) to try and beat down a Primarch...it's not gonna happen. :wtf:

Yeah, that wouldn't be the wisest tactical move in the Imperium's history. I don't want to go into spoilers for stuff that's not in the series yet, but no, if Sevatar had managed to fight Corax 1v1, he'd be corpsified in about a sixteenth of a second.


To ADB, I just hope you can keep the title "Sevtars bad day". You got the clout use it. You know you want to ;).

That story will be in Age of Darkness, and it's officially called 'Savage Weapons' now. Its working title ('Sevatar's Bad Day') is based on the fact that Sev is in it - and he's not having a great day - but it's primarily a Dark Angels story.

And I don't have clout yet, FGM. I'm still too new, and I make too many enemies by always saying "Next big thing, yo" and pointing to myself when I'm over at Black Library for meetings.

I'm a charmer.

Col. Tartleton
10-12-2010, 19:31
Maybe a sequel something like "Ferris Sevatar's Day Off" ;)

Also he needs to yell "This is my nightmare!" after being hit in the gonads.

Nazguire
10-12-2010, 19:31
I'm a bit curious, ADB, but apart from the World Eaters, and obviously Dark Angels, what other aspects of the Heresy are you keen to write about?

I do enjoy how you actually show characterisation in your books. The fight scenes aren't so much there as warporn, but to further advance the characters' stories. It's great.

Argel Tal being the main example.

ErnieTheTermie
11-12-2010, 04:04
Anyone know if Fulgrim has any mention of who the First Captain is of Vulkan's Salamanders or Corax's Raven Guard? Been a while since I read it.

Nazguire
11-12-2010, 04:06
Anyone know if Fulgrim has any mention of who the First Captain is of Vulkan's Salamanders or Corax's Raven Guard? Been a while since I read it.


It does not. The only role that the Salamanders and Raven Guard have in the book are to be bullet magnets. Sweet, sweet, bullet magnets.

ErnieTheTermie
11-12-2010, 04:22
It does not. The only role that the Salamanders and Raven Guard have in the book are to be bullet magnets. Sweet, sweet, bullet magnets.

Conversely, were the survivors named? If, for example, it named 15 Ravenguard survivors and none were the First Captain, we could effectively cross him off the list...

AlphariusOmegon20
11-12-2010, 15:08
Conversely, were the survivors named? If, for example, it named 15 Ravenguard survivors and none were the First Captain, we could effectively cross him off the list...

Chaplain Xavier of the Salamanders has to be one of the survivors. His pic is shown in the current Collected Visions of the Horus Heresy book by BL.

Which also shoots down the theory there weren't Chaplains until after the heresy. Xavier was a Chaplain, even back then.

ErnieTheTermie
11-12-2010, 16:18
Chaplain Xavier of the Salamanders has to be one of the survivors. His pic is shown in the current Collected Visions of the Horus Heresy book by BL.

Which also shoots down the theory there weren't Chaplains until after the heresy. Xavier was a Chaplain, even back then.

Interesting, thanks for that! It seems like they likely wouldnt have survived the dropsite massacres but as with many fluff related things, it is up in the air.

Ka Faraq Gatri
11-12-2010, 19:46
Which also shoots down the theory there weren't Chaplains until after the heresy.

Is that even a theory?

From Collected Visions:
At Nikaea, Librarians were banned and afterwards, Malcador made the Order of Observance, orChaplain edict, to ensure that all those pesky psykers obeyed. This was inspired by the pre-existing Chaplain order in the Word Bearers.

From the novels:
On Istvaan III, Lucius fought Emperor's Children Chaplain Charmosian - described as black-armoured and skull-faced - on top of a land raider, killed him and took his helmet to use the communicator.

Wazzahamma
12-12-2010, 04:17
It would be interesting to see the first captain or equivalent in a loyalist legion become corrupt and attempt to turn his primarch, as kor phaeron and typhon did.

TheMav80
12-12-2010, 05:44
And I don't have clout yet, FGM. I'm still too new, and I make too many enemies by always saying "Next big thing, yo" and pointing to myself when I'm over at Black Library for meetings.



I now demand that quote to make it into your next book.

ErnieTheTermie
15-12-2010, 06:18
Having just read After De'Shea, it seems that Kharn may just be the First Captain equivalent of the World Eaters Legion. Ghreer was the "Legion Master", the Astartes in command when there was no Primarch. Kunnar was the First Company Champion. Shinnargen was the Second Company Captain. All of these and several more high ranking officers were slain by Angron. In Kharn's own words "Eighth company makes me the ranking Captain on board, now." Also, Horzt, commander of Ninth Company's Stormbird squadron, says to Kharn "One of us here, now, may need to Command the Legion yet..." leading me to think that Kharn was the leading Astartes left from that point on. Of course, it is possible (though unlilkey) that one of Kharn's superiors wasn't aboard the World Eaters main battle-barge when they were scheduled to receive their Primarch.

That being said, at the time of the Isstvan III war Kharn is still 8th company Captain + Equerry, which means either (A) continuity error with the storyline, or (B) someone else was promoted in his place.

MarshalFaust
15-12-2010, 14:18
I think the biggest problem is that there seems to be a continuity error between all of the sources about how legions were organized. On one hand it's made clear in HH: collected visions that the legions for the most part are organized company->battallion(5 companies)->chapter or great company(2 battallions). Then when you consider the size of the legions most will be comprised of 80-100 chapters. On the other hand some sources treat each legion as being organized like current loyalist chapters with only 10 companies.

You could conceivably have the legions divided into 10 companies as long as the company strength stays around 5-10 thousand strong rather than 100 strong.

So in the first instance Karn should really be 8th great company captain or 8th chapter master.

StefDa
16-12-2010, 21:53
The Collected Visions list Forrix as the captain of the first Grand Company.

BlackLegion
17-12-2010, 10:58
As there isn't a Codex Astartes each Legion has it's own organisation.
For instance the Death Guard and World Eaters seem to have only Companies (but rather big ones) while Dark Angels organise several Companies to Chapters, etc.

ErnieTheTermie
17-12-2010, 17:44
The Collected Visions list Forrix as the captain of the first Grand Company.

Yes, but if you read this post on page 2, you will see that the IW heirarchy has Astartes known as Warsmiths who are ranked above the Captains (at least post-heresy):


The Warsmith definitely wasn't Perterabo, after Honsou becomes warsmith he goes to war with two other older warsmiths. In Storm of Iron Forrix was the 1st captain of whichever grand company they were a part of(i dont remember if it says). it seems that the heirarchy is:

Warsmith: command of Grand Company
and under him are 3 captains in command of a company each

there is also the possibility that there is more than 1 first company in the iron warriors legion. there could be a first company for every grand company.

but I suspect its just a continuity error or maybe Forrix F'd it up really bad during the heresy and lost his job. or it could be a different Forrix, maybe Forrix is like the name John on Olympia. at any rate i cant wait until they shed some light on the inner workings of the iron warriors in the HH books.

edit: Lupe I actually like the idea that he just doesn't care anymore and has no ambition but just fights on because he literally cannot do anything else.

So in conclusion we don't really know whether Forrix was the premier Astartes warrior of the IW before the Heresy, or not.

ErnieTheTermie
17-12-2010, 17:45
I think the biggest problem is that there seems to be a continuity error between all of the sources about how legions were organized. On one hand it's made clear in HH: collected visions that the legions for the most part are organized company->battallion(5 companies)->chapter or great company(2 battallions). Then when you consider the size of the legions most will be comprised of 80-100 chapters. On the other hand some sources treat each legion as being organized like current loyalist chapters with only 10 companies.

You could conceivably have the legions divided into 10 companies as long as the company strength stays around 5-10 thousand strong rather than 100 strong.

So in the first instance Karn should really be 8th great company captain or 8th chapter master.

Could you expand on the bolded part? I didn't really understand any of it.

ErnieTheTermie
17-12-2010, 17:49
We have info on 13 of the 18 known legions. 2 more (Salamanders and RavenGuard) appear to have been all but whiped out at Isstvan V.

The last 3 legions we are missing any info on are three famed loyalist legions:

Space Wolves
Ultramarines
White Scars

Anyone with info on the First Captains/equivalent of these Legions please post it in this thread!

MarshalFaust
17-12-2010, 18:34
The Horus Heresy Collected visions shows how most but not all of the legions were organized. The lowest level being the company of 100 men led by a captain then 5 companies are in a battalion who is led by a lieutenant commander. Two battalions are then brigaded up into a chapter or great company led by a chapter master or equivalent title. its also stated that most but not all legions could muster close to 100,000 astartes or more, with the ultramarines being the largest at 250,000. so by this reasoning most legions should have around 80-100 or more great companies or chapters of 1000 astartes. Now some legions may vary wildly from the example.

here is what i think happened. pre-great crusade when the emperor leaves terra with his 20 legions they were pretty much standardized into the above template at 100,000 strong. as the crusade moves along and each primarch is found and given control of his legion they then reshape the legion to their own liking. Some more than others.

ErnieTheTermie
17-12-2010, 19:48
The Horus Heresy Collected visions shows how most but not all of the legions were organized. The lowest level being the company of 100 men led by a captain then 5 companies are in a battalion who is led by a lieutenant commander. Two battalions are then brigaded up into a chapter or great company led by a chapter master or equivalent title. its also stated that most but not all legions could muster close to 100,000 astartes or more, with the ultramarines being the largest at 250,000. so by this reasoning most legions should have around 80-100 or more great companies or chapters of 1000 astartes. Now some legions may vary wildly from the example.

here is what i think happened. pre-great crusade when the emperor leaves terra with his 20 legions they were pretty much standardized into the above template at 100,000 strong. as the crusade moves along and each primarch is found and given control of his legion they then reshape the legion to their own liking. Some more than others.
Oh, I see. Thanks for the details on the nitty-gritty of the Legions' organization! I don't think that changes the overall picture too much though, as you said some legions are looking different closer to the Heresy start as each primarch has tended to reshape them to their own liking.

Hrw-Amen
17-12-2010, 20:54
So are these, or at least the original First Captains the ones who commanded the legions at the time they were created, before the Primarchs were rediscovered? Or was there some other rank that was done away with at the point at which the legion and primarch were reunited?

MarshalFaust
17-12-2010, 21:07
thats a good question that i dont think has ever been touched on to my knowledge. Likely it would be the most senior chapter master.

ErnieTheTermie
18-12-2010, 03:29
So are these, or at least the original First Captains the ones who commanded the legions at the time they were created, before the Primarchs were rediscovered? Or was there some other rank that was done away with at the point at which the legion and primarch were reunited?

Good question indeed. The World Eaters were led by "Legion Master" Ghreer before Angon showed up. Kharn talks about how Ghreer and Perturabo commandeered a joint IW/Warhounds force against some Xenos army.

As to the first part of your question, I would guess yes...not these Captains per se, but the First Captains/equivalent would be leading the Legions prior to their Primarch's introduction. I'd think that the Astartes leading any given Legion would be bumped down to First Captain/equivalent once the Primarch showed up. The rank of "Legion Master" would be abolished but that Astartes still held in higher esteem than the others (This is moot in the case of the World Eaters as Angron slaughtered Ghreer and a dozen other officers).

I believe that Abaddon and Pech, from various clues in the writing, would not have led their legions right from the start. Abaddon because as per Horus Rising, Maloghurst "could have" risen to First Captain if he hadn't become equerry (something that wouldn't have been written if Abaddon were the First Captain from the start), and Pech because 2nd Captain Herzog was twenty years older than he (but the logic there involves some conjecture on my part).

Col. Tartleton
18-12-2010, 15:18
Good question indeed. The World Eaters were led by "Legion Master" Ghreer before Angon showed up. Kharn talks about how Ghreer and Perturabo commandeered a joint IW/Warhounds force against some Xenos army.

As to the first part of your question, I would guess yes...not these Captains per se, but the First Captains/equivalent would be leading the Legions prior to their Primarch's introduction. I'd think that the Astartes leading any given Legion would be bumped down to First Captain/equivalent once the Primarch showed up. The rank of "Legion Master" would be abolished but that Astartes still held in higher esteem than the others (This is moot in the case of the World Eaters as Angron slaughtered Ghreer and a dozen other officers).

I believe that Abaddon and Pech, from various clues in the writing, would not have led their legions right from the start. Abaddon because as per Horus Rising, Maloghurst "could have" risen to First Captain if he hadn't become equerry (something that wouldn't have been written if Abaddon were the First Captain from the start), and Pech because 2nd Captain Herzog was twenty years older than he (but the logic there involves some conjecture on my part).

Apparently there were about a dozen previous Mournival members before the current group. We could presume that several would have been first captains. Malogurst was a company leader at some point presumably and instead of joining the Mournival he became the Equerry which is basically a fifth Mournival member anyway. So Abaddon took the job.

It's not as though anyone is untouchable by war. Even the Primarchs get killed off.

Fingol23
18-12-2010, 18:09
Don't have the book in front of me so don't kil me if this is wrong but doesn't Horus Rising state Abbadon and Tarik are both original members of the Mournival?

Lupe
18-12-2010, 18:28
Don't have the book in front of me so don't kil me if this is wrong but doesn't Horus Rising state Abbadon and Tarik are both original members of the Mournival?

I think so, but Abbadon needn't have been First Company Captain at the time. He may have been First Company, and been promoted when the previous Captain got killed, because he was a Mournival member. This doesn't provide irrefutable proof for either of the theories...

Nazguire
18-12-2010, 19:31
I think so, but Abbadon needn't have been First Company Captain at the time. He may have been First Company, and been promoted when the previous Captain got killed, because he was a Mournival member. This doesn't provide irrefutable proof for either of the theories...

Abaddon is Cthonic isn't he? And we know he's a full Astartes, so the idea of him being given the First Captaincy due to being an older mentor of Horus on Cthonia is out the question.

He may have been promoted to First Captain before Horus created the Mournival. Who says that the Mournival was something that immediately appeared as soon as Horus was found and rejoined with the Luna Wolves?

shadowhawk2008
19-12-2010, 04:14
Wasn't there something in Horus Rising about the Mournival having been part of Cthonic tradition since the oldest times?

Nazguire
19-12-2010, 05:06
If that's the case, (haven't read the book in a while) then Abaddon and Torgaddon would have to be ol mates with Horus from way back when they were children, ore Crusade, to be made full Astartes.

Again, I believe it took a little bit for the tradition to take place in the Legion.

TheRedAngel
19-12-2010, 08:47
We have info on 13 of the 18 known legions. 2 more (Salamanders and RavenGuard) appear to have been all but whiped out at Isstvan V.

The last 3 legions we are missing any info on are three famed loyalist legions:

Space Wolves
Ultramarines
White Scars

Anyone with info on the First Captains/equivalent of these Legions please post it in this thread!'Flight of the Raven' has a commander of Raven Guard Forces on Istvaan, which is second only to Corax IIRC.
Though at that time the legion present on the planet already has been mauled down to around 4000 marines.
So maybe he only got that position when the previous 1st captain died.

malika
19-12-2010, 12:41
Wasn't there something in Horus Rising about the Mournival having been part of Cthonic tradition since the oldest times?

That might be, but that doesn't mean that the Mournival was immediately introduced into the Luna Wolves as soon as Horus took command.

ErnieTheTermie
19-12-2010, 20:34
'Flight of the Raven' has a commander of Raven Guard Forces on Istvaan, which is second only to Corax IIRC.
Though at that time the legion present on the planet already has been mauled down to around 4000 marines.
So maybe he only got that position when the previous 1st captain died.

Do you have the exact quote from Raven's Flight? Would be great to see what is the case with his position, and with the name of this Astartes.

ErnieTheTermie
19-12-2010, 20:36
The last 3 legions we are missing any info on are three famed loyalist legions:

Space Wolves
Ultramarines
White Scars

Anyone with info on the First Captains/equivalent of these Legions please post it in this thread!

Bump! Let's get some more info on these legions.

MURPH
20-12-2010, 02:50
From Prospero Burns. Gunnar Gunnhilt, Jarl of Onn. Known as Lord Gunn.

Cheers,

Murph

Svorlrik
21-12-2010, 01:13
Aye, the above is true.
Jarl of Onn litterally meaning "Lord of One."
The equivalent of first company captain.

This is during the fall of prospero, not sure if much changes by the time the heresy fully begins.

Nazguire
21-12-2010, 02:12
Aye, the above is true.
Jarl of Onn litterally meaning "Lord of One."
The equivalent of first company captain.

This is during the fall of prospero, not sure if much changes by the time the heresy fully begins.

Something has to happen for Bjorn to gain prominence within the Legion. At the moment he's within the Tra Great Company, and not an entirely noteworthy member at that other than being a friend of the main character of Prospero Burns.

shadowhawk2008
21-12-2010, 04:46
Russ leaving after the heresy with his entire entourage of closest warriors is what causes Bjorn to gain prominence since he is the only one of these left behind.

Nazguire
22-12-2010, 05:54
Russ leaving after the heresy with his entire entourage of closest warriors is what causes Bjorn to gain prominence since he is the only one of these left behind.

Yes, but he has to have some credentials at all to be counted as one of Russ' favoured warriors to leave behind.

What you're saying is essentially the CEO takes his whole Board of Directors with him and appoints the Janitor in his place. At the moment he's just an average Space Wolf. So during the Heresy he has to do something to show he's worthy of Russ' attention at all.

JackDaw
22-12-2010, 07:59
As far as i can recall, Bjorn was the youngest member of the 'Wolf Guard' (or at least their Heresy-era equivalent) at the end of the Heresy when Russ went off on his quest, hence why he was left behind. Theres still plenty of time from Prospero Burns onwards for him to do something that gets him his place in Russ's Honour Guard.

abasio
23-12-2010, 14:02
Yes, but he has to have some credentials at all to be counted as one of Russ' favoured warriors to leave behind.


Maybe he was one of those guys that you really trust but just don't want to hang out with. So he was perfect for Russ to leave behind. Maybe the whole disappearance thing was just to get away from Bjorn and his boring pencil collection.

wilsongrahams
23-12-2010, 23:15
Just a point, in case any info does come to light. The Legions weren't all just a larger chapter with just loads of extra companies, but some have different a different organisation altogether - the space wolves are a great example of this as they have not changed.

My point is that a legion could have actually been divided into chapters and each chapter had it's ten companies, and each chapter could have it's own terminator company, so being a Terminator captain would not equte to actually being overall first captain.

One of the traitor legions in a recent HH book made me think of this though I don't recall which, possible death guard? Anyway, just thought it was worth mentioning.

BlackLegion
24-12-2010, 00:01
Night Lords seem to have Terminators in each Company. Not only the 1st.
At least i get this image from the novel "Soul Hunter" which features the Night Lords 10th Company which have their own Terminators.

malika
24-12-2010, 00:29
According to The First Heretic the Atramentar are all members of the First Company under command of Sevatar. I imagine that eventually he will die and Zso Sahaal (sp?) takes over as captain of the First Company. In Soul Hunter it is implied that Sahaal ditched his company in order to get to the Corona Nox. The other companies have probably accepted some of them amongst their own ranks.

MontytheMighty
30-08-2011, 13:44
Iron Hands - First Captain Gabriel Santar. Twice defeated and then slain by his counterpart from the Emperor's Children.
do the Iron Hands ever win against the Emperor's Children...
talk about heaping insult on injury, their primarch loses, their first captain loses...I find the EC to be a very annoying legion

Killgore
30-08-2011, 14:41
do the Iron Hands ever win against the Emperor's Children...
talk about heaping insult on injury, their primarch loses, their first captain loses...I find the EC to be a very annoying legion

Worse then the Alpha LEgion?

Iron Hands were dealt a good kicking during the Heresy, but look who won in the end.

Bold_or_Stupid
31-08-2011, 00:14
Maybe he was one of those guys that you really trust but just don't want to hang out with. So he was perfect for Russ to leave behind. Maybe the whole disappearance thing was just to get away from Bjorn and his boring pencil collection.

I wonder if that could be modelled onto a dread. "Are those pencils?" "Yes they're his favorites - HBs."

Possible Bjorn gets noticed for beating on a demon on Prospero.

MontytheMighty
31-08-2011, 00:28
Worse then the Alpha LEgion?
nope

my list of disliked legions goes like

Alpha Legion
Night Lords
Space Wolves
Emperor's Children

Chem-Dog
31-08-2011, 03:10
nope

my list of disliked legions goes like

Alpha Legion
Night Lords
Space Wolves
Emperor's Children

You're a bad, bad man.

Go read Soul Hunter.
Then listen to Throne of Lies.
Then read Blood Reaver.

And keep doing so until you LOVE Psychobatman and his Legion of Supercriminals!!!!!!!!!

You make Chem-Dog sad :(

exsanguis
01-09-2011, 14:31
To be fair, doesn't Santar 'beat' Kaesoron but is kinda stumped when he gets off on being eviscerated?

"For Ferru- the ****** are you doing Julius?"
*slash*
"HNNNNNNG"

Poor bastard just seems to be unlucky is all. He got taken by surprise the first time as well! And it took a Daemon possessing Fulgrim to knock off Ferrus didn't it?

FYI. **** yeh, ADB :D
I'd be quite happy for you to do some Dark Angels books. The HH ones so far have been rather....poo, to say the least.

FlashGordon
01-09-2011, 17:15
Nah, Fulgrim beat Ferrus good. He just could not land the final blow. So the daemon gave the sword a little push. ;)

Trick
01-09-2011, 22:59
With regard to the question of First Captains leading the Legions before the Primarchs...

I think that could be the case, it would certainly make sense for some of them, though some First Captains have been given their rank and title as a favoured son of the Primarch so would be given the rank later on in the crusade such as Abbadon, or would be BFFs with the primarch on their homeworld, such as with Luther.

On the subject of Abbadon I don't think he will have even been in the Luna Wolves at the time of Horus' discovery. There is quite a lot of mention (especially in later writing) that talks about 'Horus' Sons' who were individuals within the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus who bore a striking resemblance to the Primarch, of whom Abbadon was one, as was Little Horus. It is my belief that these 'Sons' were direct clones of Horus, created by Horus for Horus once he was in charge of the Legion. Abbadon being the best and most awesome of these mini-mes quickly garnered favour and was made First Captain after whoever came before him was killed/disposed of.

And no, not the same clones that Abbadon gets angry at and kills off post-Heresy.


FYI. **** yeh, ADB :D
I'd be quite happy for you to do some Dark Angels books. The HH ones so far have been rather....poo, to say the least.

Read Age of Darkness. ;)

Trick

exsanguis
02-09-2011, 10:55
Aye. Night Lords meet Dark Angels by ADB = recipe for success.

SomeRandomEvilGuy
02-09-2011, 12:07
Nah, Fulgrim beat Ferrus good. He just could not land the final blow. So the daemon gave the sword a little push. ;)
The second time they fight, Fulgrim only wins because the Daemon enhances his strength beyond that of Ferrus'. Without that, Fulgrim would likely have been killed at that point.

Londinium
02-09-2011, 12:59
With regard to the question of First Captains leading the Legions before the Primarchs...

I think that could be the case, it would certainly make sense for some of them, though some First Captains have been given their rank and title as a favoured son of the Primarch so would be given the rank later on in the crusade such as Abbadon, or would be BFFs with the primarch on their homeworld, such as with Luther.

On the subject of Abbadon I don't think he will have even been in the Luna Wolves at the time of Horus' discovery. There is quite a lot of mention (especially in later writing) that talks about 'Horus' Sons' who were individuals within the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus who bore a striking resemblance to the Primarch, of whom Abbadon was one, as was Little Horus. It is my belief that these 'Sons' were direct clones of Horus, created by Horus for Horus once he was in charge of the Legion. Abbadon being the best and most awesome of these mini-mes quickly garnered favour and was made First Captain after whoever came before him was killed/disposed of.

And no, not the same clones that Abbadon gets angry at and kills off post-Heresy.



Read Age of Darkness. ;)

Trick

A direct clone of Horus would be by definition a Primarch though. Abaddon, Little Horus etc don't show anywhere near Primarch power levels. Even if they were created with some of Horus' genes, that just makes them normal space marines considering that is what astartes geneseed is after all.