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View Full Version : Questions about Astral Claws and Tiger Claws (Possible Spoilers)



Mage
10-12-2010, 01:43
So I was reading Lexicanum, and the following confused me:

How could the Astral Claws have '3 sons', that is, be primogenitors to 3 other chapters, one of which being the Tiger Claws. Is that even possible with a second or later founding chapter? I have not read the Badab War Forge World book. This is really confusing me.

I thought only the original legions were broken down with successors. This is confusing me a bit, if anyone could shed light on it for me please do so, it will be appreciated.

Leftenant Gashrog
10-12-2010, 03:27
There isn't anything spoiler worthy there - that particular revelation isn't story related.

The 2nd Founding was the only time that chapters were created by breaking up old existing formations - all subsequent chapters were created from scratch using geneseed tithed from existing chapters. GW has never actually named a successor of a successor before but their existence has long been a matter of canon: the Index Astartes: Codex Astartes article (the first article in Index Astartes I and presumably the first IA published under 3rd edition) stated that the Ultramarines were responsible for almost 3/5ths of all chapters in existence both directly and via the Primogenitors (Smurf 2nd Founding Successors). IA volume 9 simply acknowledges the fact and runs with it, for example the Marines Errant are a 23rd Founding Chapter created from the Eagle Warriors geneseed tithes.

Mage
10-12-2010, 03:55
Thanks for the reply. I wa always under the impression that the current chapters were all made from geneseed stored from the first founding legions.

How does working from scratch with the geneseed tithe work, if you would not mind me asking?

Also, would that mean that the Marines Errant and Eagle Warriors, in the example given, would be all 'buddy buddy'.

AndrewGPaul
10-12-2010, 08:13
Thanks for the reply. I wa always under the impression that the current chapters were all made from geneseed stored from the first founding legions.

How does working from scratch with the geneseed tithe work, if you would not mind me asking?

Also, would that mean that the Marines Errant and Eagle Warriors, in the example given, would be all 'buddy buddy'.

Creating a Chapter from geneseed is essentially the same process, whether they use Founding Legion geneseed or more recent material. Implants are cultured from stored progenoids and implanted into test subjects, then allowed to grow normally. When the new progenoids have matured, they're harvested and used to grow more organs. This process is repeated until they have enough sets of zygotes for a Chapter of a thousand Marines.

How recruits are selected, equipped and trained has never been explained in detail. It seems to me that a founding core of Marines are transferred from existing Chapters to act as the senior officers of the new Chapter, and equipment comes from the Mechanicus, and possibly from the Chapter(s) supplying the veteran Marines.

Note that I'm not sure the veteran Marines chosen to lead the new Chapter might not be from the same Chapter as the geneseed used in the new recruits. It's probable, but I don't think it's required. In addition, there's nothing to stop them using, say, a Black Carapace and third lung from one geneseed source and a mucranoid and Betcher's Gland from a second, etc.

Given that, it's probable that the new Chapter's traditions and relationships with other Chapters and Imperial institutions are more down to their initial leaders, rather than simply which geneseed they use.

Mage
10-12-2010, 15:06
@ AndrewGPaul

Thanks for the reply. Thats pretty interesting. It certainly opens possibilities up if you want to play a 'new' chapter of your own creation, with various company captains possibly being from different chapters.

It also explains why so many chapters have an unnamed or unknown descent/primogenitors/primarch.

I suppose its to do with the heresy and ties between chapters in the aftermath and prevent them from becoming 'pseudo legions;.

Leftenant Gashrog
10-12-2010, 15:34
Note that I'm not sure the veteran Marines chosen to lead the new Chapter might not be from the same Chapter as the geneseed used in the new recruits. It's probable, but I don't think it's required.

IA volume 9 notes that Novamarines have no known successors themselves "but they are known to have had the honour of their brethren selected to aid the founding of several Ultramarine gene-seed successor chapters"

Mage
10-12-2010, 21:57
That sounds pretty cool