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Herne the hunter
10-12-2010, 02:24
So I gather their souls are going to Slaanesh and they appear to just embrace this.

My question is; why? What's in it for them?

TheLaughingGod
10-12-2010, 02:30
So I gather their souls are going to Slaanesh and they appear to just embrace this.

My question is; why? What's in it for them?

Well, if you believe Lexicanum... it's not really their choice.

However, if you had to speculate I'd say it's something they have to do to tell the Story. Someone has to play the Great Enemy and for some reason that also means your soul is forfeit.

*Waits for someone to come in and complain about mentioning Lexicanum again*

ashendant
10-12-2010, 02:47
Well, if you believe Lexicanum... it's not really their choice.

However, if you had to speculate I'd say it's something they have to do to tell the Story. Someone has to play the Great Enemy and for some reason that also means your soul is forfeit.

*Waits for someone to come in and complain about mentioning Lexicanum again*

If people are complaining about lexicanum maybe they should update it themselves...

Mánagarmr
10-12-2010, 02:51
So I gather their souls are going to Slaanesh and they appear to just embrace this.

My question is; why? What's in it for them?

Honestly, I have no idea. That's a serious sacrifice one has to make to put on a show.


If people are complaining about lexicanum maybe they should update it themselves...

But it's so much easier to complain! :D

Hendarion
10-12-2010, 02:54
If people are complaining about lexicanum maybe they should update it themselves...
Haha, nice joke. Many have tried it, but all changes got reverted by the administrator without an explanation, without any reason. I tried myself to point out that this is just unproven rumour at the related passage... got reverted too. It seams the administration doesn't care whether something is true or not as long as it sounds cool. Yea, fanaticism and fanboyism.

ashendant
10-12-2010, 02:55
Honestly, I have no idea. That's a serious sacrifice one has to make to put on a show.

But it's so much easier to complain! :D

I don't know much about solitaries, but lexicanum says their souls can only be saved by the laughing god

Complain about what? lexicanum is probably one of those things that always has correct information, the mods are so elitist information jackasses about it, that i don't even get a chance to breath about it

Kage2020
10-12-2010, 02:59
The Solitaire does, however, have hopes that the Laughing God will play a "trick" on Slaanesh so that their soul will not be forfeit. Or, rather, that's how it used to be. :D

Since there's no real 'fluff' on it, my own take is that it pertains to being a version of a "Trojan Horse" against Slaanesh but there's absolutely no basis for this other than it sounding a little bit cool and perhaps integrating with another one of my baseless fan theories. :shifty:

Kage

Hendarion
10-12-2010, 03:11
Complain about what? lexicanum is probably one of those things that always has correct information, the mods are so elitist information jackasses about it, that i don't even get a chance to breath about it
Not. At. All.

Stonerhino
10-12-2010, 04:22
Among the Eldar it is said that Solitaires are Harlequins who have been touched directly by the Great Harlequin, and have his insight into the fall of the race and the nature of the universe. A Solitaire may live unknown among Eldar (or even members of another race) for years or decades, and there are many rumours and folk-tales telling of Eldar who have met a Solitaire, and realised later that this was the Great Harlequin himself. Solitaires represent the very pinnacle of the Harlequin ideal, and are formidable foes.

~WD 105 maybe 106I condenced and combined all of the early articals into one file.

TheLaughingGod
10-12-2010, 04:30
I condenced and combined all of the early articals into one file.

Fairly certain that fluff is no longer accurate.

Stonerhino
10-12-2010, 04:32
It's still good to have and not flip through old mags to find. A lot has been changed but some still works.

MagosHereticus
10-12-2010, 04:56
i believe the Solitaire is a martyr, making the enormous sacrifice for the good of the whole eldar race (colloquial meaning of race obviously) as his part in the great dance serves as a powerful warning to all eldar who witness it

as for what the dark eldar think when they see it, i dont know, but maybe they are just thick

Stonerhino
10-12-2010, 06:03
I forget where I read and it may have been a fanfict. But IIRC durring the initiation proccess for the Harlequinns. They get possessed by a greater demon of Slaanesh and have to fight it off themselves. If they can't then the actual harlequinns kill the possessed Eldar. Sometime durring the process the initiate loses their soul but not dead. These become the Solitaires.

If this is right and I remembered it correctly then becoming a Solitaire is not by choice.

Hendarion
10-12-2010, 06:19
I forget where I read and it may have been a fanfict. But IIRC durring the initiation proccess for the Harlequinns. They get possessed by a greater demon of Slaanesh and have to fight it off themselves.
That is the bullcrap you will find inside Lexicanum. They insist it had been stated in Citadel Journal #10, although there is not a single evidence to include even a topic that might talk about Harlequins in any way. They neither have a page number or citation to back up that claim. But they keep reverting any author that tries to get rid of that.
More recent fluff actually says that Solitaires got "touched by Cegorach" and that Cegorach is sometimes walking among the Eldar, hiding/masking as a Solitaire.

Stonerhino
10-12-2010, 07:04
You mean the quote from the WD I quoted in this thread???

Hendarion
10-12-2010, 07:11
Hmm, hehe. That one is from 1988 which means it's actually older and not more recent.
Hehe. It's number 105 by the way, page 39.

However, Journal #10 is from 1995, same as the 2nd Edi Codex. The Codex however states the soul of the Harlequin is lost after death to Slaanesh and Cegorach needs to fight for it. So the Solitaire still has his is soul and is got not lost during some possession ritual... according to the Codex.
I've "ordered" Citadel Journal #39 and will hopefully have it in my hands soon to see what it will say about the Solitaire and whether he loses his soul on death or just the "path of damnation" stuff.

*warning* fan-fiction incoming:
To explain both things to go hand in hand, it would require the soul lost during the possession *and* afterwards Cegoragh to touch that poor fellow in order to keep him alive instead of just dying by losing his soul. That *could* work out, but I doubt that this is even close to what the fluff actually had in mind with the Solitaire... if GW has really made up their minds anyway about the Solitaire... it seems they didn't have a fully worked out story about him, just blurry myth.

Stonerhino
10-12-2010, 07:25
It's alright. If I was really bent on knowing what WD it was from I could have gone to storage and looked.

Actualy I should do that anyways and break up the text into sections by WD#. Would be easier then trying to remember which one it's from.

Man sometime I swear, you read so many different things from so many different sources. It starts to blurr together.

Hendarion
10-12-2010, 07:28
Man sometime I swear, you read so many different things from so many different sources. It starts to blurr together.
They do. In every discussion it's hard... "Damn, where did I read it???"

AndrewGPaul
10-12-2010, 08:04
I don't know much about solitaries, but lexicanum says their souls can only be saved by the laughing god

Complain about what? lexicanum is probably one of those things that always has correct information, the mods are so elitist information jackasses about it, that i don't even get a chance to breath about it

The problem with Lexicanum isn't the accurtacy of the information, as such. It's that you can't tell if it is, because of the poor level of references. Most of the time, if there's any references listed, it's just a single list at the bottom of the page; "White Dwarf so-and-so, Codex: thingy, etc". There's no mention of which part of the document they're referring to, and very few inline citations. I don't disbeleive Lexicanum, I just can't trust it.

Stonerhino
10-12-2010, 08:13
I normaly only read Lexicanum when someone sights it as a source of information. It's not only full of bad information, it's how you said. There is no difference in the good and bad info.

Actualy that is kind of a lie. When I really can't remember where I got some information I will use Lexi. The best way is to use the search to find the subject. Then scroll down to the bottem (Not looking at the text) and read the sources. And finaly going to the source and rereading it.

With fluff and especialy with fluff that's ment to be kind of unknown. GW does not put it in concrete. Instead they leave it vague. Like Hendarion's Fanfict. Both of the sources can be correct it's just not known to the point of being "Matter of fact" as to how they are made.

Iracundus
10-12-2010, 08:19
I have Citadel Journal #39 and it has never said anything about any form of daemonic possession. At last check, I think this Citadel Journal article was even available online for those that can search it out.

This is what it says about Solitaires:



Little is known about the Solitaires, even amongst the Eldar. They have passed the sacred Ritual which all Harlequins must undertake, yet they live apart from other Harlequins. The Solitaires roam the Webway seeking out Eldar they believe can survive the Ritual, and take them to the Harlequin bands. It is said that the oldest and most powerful Solitaires become the dreaded guardians of the Black Library. On the extremely rare occasions when a Solitaire performs, he or she takes the part of Slaanesh and the Harlequin band will perform the legendary tale of the Birth of the Great Enemy – the most dangerous of all Harlequin masques. It is claimed that others have tried to take on the role of the Great Enemy and died or been driven insane!

p. 8, Citadel Journal #39

Hendarion
10-12-2010, 08:23
Ha! I know that passage. I guess I have a *cough* ... erm ... *cough* analogue black'n'white copy here... yep, I do.

Iracundus
10-12-2010, 08:27
The problem with Lexicanum isn't the accurtacy of the information, as such. It's that you can't tell if it is, because of the poor level of references. Most of the time, if there's any references listed, it's just a single list at the bottom of the page; "White Dwarf so-and-so, Codex: thingy, etc". There's no mention of which part of the document they're referring to, and very few inline citations. I don't disbeleive Lexicanum, I just can't trust it.

Quite right. It gets even worse as often their entries are paraphrases or interpretations of the background rather than direct quotes, rendering the possibility of the writer's misinterpretations or fan theories being incorporated into the text and given the false guise of canon simply due to the list of references at the bottom of the page.

LexxBomb
10-12-2010, 11:39
I forget where I read and it may have been a fanfict. But IIRC durring the initiation proccess for the Harlequinns. They get possessed by a greater demon of Slaanesh and have to fight it off themselves. If they can't then the actual harlequinns kill the possessed Eldar. Sometime durring the process the initiate loses their soul but not dead. These become the Solitaires.

If this is right and I remembered it correctly then becoming a Solitaire is not by choice.

the problem with this is that, anyone who fights off being demonically possessed by a Greater Demon becomes an Illuminati and as such immune from the predations of Chaos... thus all Harliquins are same from the chaos powers... and we know this to be wrong. for all we know a solitares soul could be floating in the webway like Inquisitor Draco's

Herne the hunter
10-12-2010, 12:31
The idea of the Laughing God fighting for the soul before it goes to Slaanesh makes more sense than an individual sacrificing their soul for an eternity of suffering just so they can portray the devil in a play IMO. But then it would also make sense if it was not the Solitaire's choice and they just became resigned to the fact.

I was scouring eBay for old minis a few weeks back and I came across one of the old pre-Black Library 40k novels called simply Harlequin. In hindsight I wish I'd bought it. Anyone read it?

Iracundus
10-12-2010, 12:40
The idea of the Laughing God fighting for the soul before it goes to Slaanesh makes more sense than an individual sacrificing their soul for an eternity of suffering just so they can portray the devil in a play IMO. But then it would also make sense if it was not the Solitaire's choice and they just became resigned to the fact.

I was scouring eBay for old minis a few weeks back and I came across one of the old pre-Black Library 40k novels called simply Harlequin. In hindsight I wish I'd bought it. Anyone read it?

Yes and to be honest it's not that great. It is the middle novel out of the trilogy now entitled the Inquisitor trilogy. But the first novel was good for its atmospheric portrayal of the 40K universe even though the details may no longer be accurate to modern 40K.

By the time of the 2nd book, it was almost as if it were turning into a "showcase", in which the writer was instructed to show or at least mention certain things about a race or about 40K in general, so the plot gets hijacked towards that purpose. Even more of the details are now inconsistent with current 40K. The 3rd book is even worse.

About the only worthwhile bit I found in that novel was the little secret regarding the towel/shroud on which the Emperor had supposedly wiped his face during the Great Crusade (ie think the Turin Shroud):

The main characters discover the original facial impression on the shroud had long since faded to nothing and they see nothing themselves. However when the shroud is revealed to the expectant almost rioting throng of pilgrims, some of them have ecstatic religious experiences including one who remarks on how beautiful the Emperor's face is. This is despite the fact that 1) she is far too physically far away to see a thing (the item is literally a speck in the distance if that) and 2) there is nothing to actually see on the shroud. It shows for example that at least some of the miracles witnessed, experienced, or reported in the Imperium may be psychosomatic.

Kage2020
10-12-2010, 13:30
To be fair, you do sometimes get the feeling from some of the current 40k novels that are tied to a game or army release. Eisenhorn, Mitchell's Dark Heresy books, etc.

On the other hand, I tend to agree. First part great, first half of the second part (Harlequin) had some good materials but... well, then it began to taper off and remind me of Baldrick's war poem, Boom Boom Boom. :D

Kage

ashendant
10-12-2010, 14:11
Hmm, hehe. That one is from 1988 which means it's actually older and not more recent.
Hehe. It's number 105 by the way, page 39.

However, Journal #10 is from 1995, same as the 2nd Edi Codex. The Codex however states the soul of the Harlequin is lost after death to Slaanesh and Cegorach needs to fight for it. So the Solitaire still has his is soul and is got not lost during some possession ritual... according to the Codex.
I've "ordered" Citadel Journal #39 and will hopefully have it in my hands soon to see what it will say about the Solitaire and whether he loses his soul on death or just the "path of damnation" stuff.

A moderator said you could take that out and put the correct information from new sources or something like that

The cleanest solution would be: remove whole content, take all sources that are available and only include the information contained there-in wirh proper sourcing and footnotes. The whole issue stems from the "old" times when the previous sysops did not take their tasks seriously. Since then the strictly enforced rules are in effect and are applied without mercy to any and all changes.

Eumerin
10-12-2010, 16:59
Old fluff (probably the original fluff - found in the original Harlequin list; iirc, the original list was printed in White Dwarf and reprinted in a book called the "Warhammer 40,000 Compendium", along with the original Imperial Guard and Squat lists) -

Harlequins live apart from the troupe, and often live as other eldar. They are the only ones who can safely dance the part of The Great Enemy in the Great Dance. In the attached string of fluff stories, the Harlequin troupe visiting one of the local craftworlds doesn't even realize until mid-way through their performance that a Solitaire is present on the craftworld. Once that fact is realized the current performance is stopped immediately, the Solitaire is identified, and the craftworld is honored with the opportunity to see the Great Dance performed. The Solitaire in question happens to be an unassuming technician who lives and works on the craftworld. One of the implications from the story is that Harlequin troupes frequently DON'T perform the Great Dance because that performance basically relies on having a Solitaire turn up at the right time.


Updated fluff (from an early Eldar codex - unfortunately, I can't remember which one off the top of my head)

Solitaires are a part of the troupe, but are avoided by all other Eldar - including other Harlequins. The reason for this is because their souls - unlike the souls of the other Harlequins - are already claimed by Slaanesh. Sometimes Cegorach is able to distract Slaanesh when the Solitaire dies and allow the Solitaire's soul to escape. But more often than not, the Solitaire's soul is consumed by Slaanesh. Solitaires are the only ones who can safely play the role of Slaanesh in the Great Dance.


Current fluff (from the 4th edition Eldar codex)

Solitaires are a part of the troupe, but are avoided by the superstitious Eldar because it is believed that the Solitaires walk the "Path of Damnation". Solitaires are the only ones who can play the role of Slaanesh in the Great Dance.


The current fluff is notable in that it appears quite similar to the "lost to Slaanesh" fluff - aside from the fact that it isn't made clear that the Solitaire is lost to Slaanesh when he or she dies. Instead, Eldar tend to avoid the Solitaire because the Solitaire is connected to a particular path - the details of which aren't explained at all. If you're familiar with the "lost to Slaanesh" fluff, then the logical assumption is that the Path of Damnation is the same thing. But it's possible that it's something else.

Personally, I like the original fluff best. But I don't write for GW, so the likelihood of me being able to influence GW to return to the better fluff is probably nil.

;)

Hendarion
10-12-2010, 18:00
A moderator said you could take that out and put the correct information from new sources or something like that
I saw that. I initiated the discussion about the topic.

Vaulkhar
10-12-2010, 18:21
I would add a little tidbit from the 2nd edition Codex (page 13):


The strangest of all Harlequins are the players known as Solitaires. A troupe has only one Solitaire and his role is to play the part of the Chaos God Slaanesh. Although he is part of the troupe he lives aside from the other Harlequins. He speaks and is spoken to only in ritual form, and when he is not performing he rarely communicates with the other Eldar. His role commands ultimate fear and complete respect, and also makes him the most dangerous of the Harlequins. It is said that to speak to a Solitaire or cross his path is to invite damnation, and that if a person were to accidentally address or touch a Solitaire it would be better that he ended his life there and then rather than suffer the terrible doom that awaits him.

jt.glass
10-12-2010, 21:42
Fairly certain that fluff is no longer accurate.Says who? Certainly not GW: Their canon policy amounts to "you sort it out".


jt.

TheLaughingGod
10-12-2010, 23:01
Says who? Certainly not GW: Their canon policy amounts to "you sort it out".


jt.

The irony here is that what you just said isn't actually true either. There is no "canon policy" so all you can do is reject the older stuff when the newer stuff contradicts it. Welcome to retcon.

Stonerhino
10-12-2010, 23:31
Not only that but you have cannon fluff that says other cannon fluff does not really know what happened. Combined with their stance of "You deside" and you are left with nearly endless possibilities of what actualy happens/happened.


It is said that the legends of the Eldar contain many scraps of true tales of individual C'Tan, obscurely referenced amoung the deads of Asuryan and Eldanesh, Isha and Kurnous. But even they acknowledge that their own gods were born of a war in heaven that had been raging between the Ur-folk and the Yngir since the birth of creation. Separating truth and myth about the C'Tan is impossible, though given their nature perhaps it's a mistake to even try. ~Necron codex page 30Maybe it is a mistake to try but it's so much fun...Right???

jt.glass
12-12-2010, 18:16
The irony here is that what you just said isn't actually true either. There is no "canon policy" so all you can do is reject the older stuff when the newer stuff contradicts it. Welcome to retcon.Er what. Their lack of a particular canon policy is exactly what I was aluding to.

What is ironic, however, is that you in the same sentance said there was no canon policy, and then somehow translated that into a policy of "new overrides old".


jt.

FabricatorGeneralMike
12-12-2010, 18:45
The irony here is that what you just said isn't actually true either. There is no "canon policy" so all you can do is reject the older stuff when the newer stuff contradicts it. Welcome to retcon.

Well, not really. It's not like Andy C Or Jervis J are going to jump out from behind the couch and screem at you " NO NO NO THATS NOT THE RIGHT FLUFF!!!!"

It's not like the old Andy C d6 ramdom charts from 2nd ed era. If you rolled a 1, he jumped out and screemed at you " YOU GOT SQUAT HAHAHAH!!!!!" ;)

Kage2020
12-12-2010, 19:18
Solitaires are a part of the troupe, but are avoided by the superstitious Eldar because it is believed that the Solitaires walk the "Path of Damnation". Solitaires are the only ones who can play the role of Slaanesh in the Great Dance.
This is actually a crying shame, at least in my mind. One of my favourite 40 moments was reading through the story on the Great Dance in the Harlequin article of WD105 and the point at which the performance stops as the High Avatar bows to the crowd... In fact, facilitated by the advanced technology of, er, typing:


The first work was performed by a single troupe. It was one of the many stories about the Great Harlequin, the Harlequins' only master. The Warlock stood to one side, his dathedi suit cycling through the shifting reds, greens and golds of the Storyteller as he wove a commentary with the projectors of light, sound. psychic impulse and programmed hallucinogen from the creidann unit on his back. The Avatar danced the part of the Laughing god. with his suit projecting the ever-changing lozenge pattern of the Great Harlequin.

Death entered, his suit cycling through the decomposition of a corpse from flesh to bone to dust to nothingness and back again. Troupers danced around him, falling at his touch. The Laughing god danced around the outside.

Suddenly, the performance stopped. The High Avatar of the Dance Without End walked to the front of the stage, and looked out into the audience. Then he bowed - a bow of courtesy to a superior.

The audience sat in stunned silence. Then one figure rose.

Those few who recognised him knew him only as an undistinguished Infinity Matrix technician. He had lived on Saim-Hann for over a century; humbly tending the circuitry that maintained the countless Ancestors as the spirit in the body of the great ship. Now the High Avatar of a Harlequin masque had bowed to him. He nodded - curtly, as to a subordinate - and walked toward the stage.

"Saim-Hann is fortunate." The High Avatar s voice seemed uncomfortably loud after the silence. "We shall perform The Dance."
Well, I like it. :D


Personally, I like the original fluff best. But I don't write for GW, so the likelihood of me being able to influence GW to return to the better fluff is probably nil.
Aye, it is a shame. There's still some good materials being produced, but these materials are some of the things that had me "falling in love" with the 40k universe. Thus in "Kage-verse" I tend to work with the idea that the older materials are more relevant, and then you add in the cool stuff from the newer materials. :D

Kage

Stonerhino
12-12-2010, 20:34
I prefer to view the old fluff as being the current understanding at that time as opposed to just being wrong. For example it was believed that the Tyranid's ships used the warp to move FTL. Then in the last codex the Tau discovered the Narvhal ships and how they work. So the understanging changed so that we now know that the bugs don't use the warp to travel.

Was the old fluff wrong yes. But it was wrong because we did not have all the information not just because it was wrong.

Idaan
12-12-2010, 20:45
Worth noticing is that the fact that a Solitaire was an Infinity Circuit technician pretty much precludes them from being Pariahs engineered by the Deceiver as some people claim: proximity to Pariahs disrupts the Infinity Circuit's work greatly as seen on p9 of the Necron Codex.

Kage2020
12-12-2010, 21:23
Stonerhino... That's pretty much how I negotiate the 'fluff' between the various editions a well. :D

Idaan... And that's the argument that would have some saying that it is outdated and retconned. ;)

Kage

jt.glass
13-12-2010, 11:41
Well, I like it. :DI like it too. I've got the reprint in the "Red Book", one of my favourite ever publications for 40k!



Aye, it is a shame. There's still some good materials being produced, but these materials are some of the things that had me "falling in love" with the 40k universe. Thus in "Kage-verse" I tend to work with the idea that the older materials are more relevant, and then you add in the cool stuff from the newer materials. :DI like a lot of the old stuff, and a lot of the new stuff. My only personal fanon policy is "good overrides bad". And if two good bits seem to contradict, they stay in abeyance until I can think of a way to reconcile them.

For example, I am still trying to think of a way to reconcile the old ork fluff about recruiting from feral ork tribes (which is cool) with the new ork fluff about growing from spores (which is also cool)...


jt.

Hellebore
13-12-2010, 13:53
I prefer to view the old fluff as being the current understanding at that time as opposed to just being wrong. For example it was believed that the Tyranid's ships used the warp to move FTL. Then in the last codex the Tau discovered the Narvhal ships and how they work. So the understanging changed so that we now know that the bugs don't use the warp to travel.

Was the old fluff wrong yes. But it was wrong because we did not have all the information not just because it was wrong.

Well you can look at it like that, but if the particular mechanism is described and witnessed, it's a little hard to credit it as a 'mistake'. Part of the tyranid strategy was to drop out of warp just at the ege of a star system and coast in.

Some of the reasons I don't like this change is that it's A) pointless as it accomplishes exactly the same thing as warp travel, B) undermines one of the core tennants of 40k, the limitations of FTL travel and C) is completely ridiculous - this last because it is described as using the gravity of the target planet to 'pull' the fleet toward it. Now in general it would be hard enough to detect the gravitational force of a planet around a star (with a much higher gravity), but doing what is described is akin to saying you have a lasgun that is powered by the light from a single star in the sky. :eyebrows:

IMO, if something fulfills the above 3 criteria (or even 2 or 1 of them) then it is bad fluff.

Pointless, undermining and ridiculous.

Hellebore

AndrewGPaul
13-12-2010, 14:08
For example, I am still trying to think of a way to reconcile the old ork fluff about recruiting from feral ork tribes (which is cool) with the new ork fluff about growing from spores (which is also cool)...


jt.


Simple. Spores tend to accumulate in out-of-the-way places. These remote spores hatch into Orks who wander around in feral mobs until they're encountered by older Orks from an astablished settlement, wereupon they're handed a shoota and shown wot's wot.

Stonerhino
13-12-2010, 17:45
A) pointless as it accomplishes exactly the same thing as warp travel, True, but if GW is trying to make the warp different outside the milkyway then establishing how FTL exist outside the warp is a big step.


B) undermines one of the core tennants of 40k, the limitations of FTL travel The drives that the Necons use do the same thing and better then the Tyranids. While giving the finger to anyone who even trys to say otherwise. "Webway... I don't need no stinken Webway".


C) is completely ridiculous - this last because it is described as using the gravity of the target planet to 'pull' the fleet toward it. Now in general it would be hard enough to detect the gravitational force of a planet around a star (with a much higher gravity),I'm pretty sure that it says "System" and not planet. Which would include the star and any other planets in the system.

Also it does not pull the fleet using the target systems gravity. Instead it some how harnesses the targets gravity to make an area of condenced space. How much is needed or even what the gravity is used for is not explained.

The way that this allows the Tyranids to move FTL and not violate science is simple and something that already exist in theories. It works by making the space in front of you smaller.

Think of it like this. You have two points, point A and point B. The distance from A to B is 1 billion meters. You somehow compress the space between A and B down so that the distance is now only 1 meter. You could jump from point A to B. Then you could expand the space back to it's normal size. To everyone else you just traveled 1 billion meters in a few seconds. But you only really jumped a meter and never even came close to light speed from your point of view.

Kage2020
13-12-2010, 17:58
The Alcubierre warp drive, I believe? With that said, the invention of different "star drives" for each of the races has always struck me as being a tad on the lazy side in terms of universe design. Why bother?

Kage

Eumerin
13-12-2010, 18:26
Worth noticing is that the fact that a Solitaire was an Infinity Circuit technician pretty much precludes them from being Pariahs engineered by the Deceiver as some people claim: proximity to Pariahs disrupts the Infinity Circuit's work greatly as seen on p9 of the Necron Codex.

Unfortunately, that original fluff is pretty much overwritten by the garbage that replaced it. Originally Solitaires lived and worked outside the troupe (as evidenced by the humble technician in the story from several posts back). When the fluff was changed to "soul belongs to Slaanesh", the fluff also changed so that Solitaires now lived and traveled with the troupe - but were still largely considered pariahs (in the non-Necron sense of the word) within the troupe.

Originally a Solitaire was something that was considered one of the most awe-inspiring things for a race that was surrounded by the amazing. After the fluff change, they were remade into doomed, ostracized social rejects.

Lame...

Stonerhino
13-12-2010, 19:48
@Idaan: If you are talking about the story of the Eldar destroying the Culexus temple. Then you should reread it because IIRC it was the farseer affecting the Infinity Ciruit not the entire Culexus temple full of non-Necron Pariah assassines.

Idaan
13-12-2010, 19:49
Huh? The Citadel Journal codex says that the Solitaire lives apart from the Troupe, the 4e Eldar Codex just calls him "silent and reclusive" implying that it's something more than just not talking (cause neither do the Mimes) while Dark Eldar codex doesn't mention Solitaires IIRC. So where did this retcon take place.


@Idaan: If you are talking about the story of the Eldar destroying the Culexus temple. Then you should reread it because IIRC it was the farseer affecting the Infinity Ciruit not the entire Culexus temple full of non-Necron Pariah assassines.
The Farseer contacts the ship's Circuit through the Eternal Matrix and feels all souls, alive and dead, recoil as they near the planet on which the Culexus temple is. Checked it before posting just to be sure.

Eumerin
13-12-2010, 20:34
Huh? The Citadel Journal codex says that the Solitaire lives apart from the Troupe, the 4e Eldar Codex just calls him "silent and reclusive" implying that it's something more than just not talking (cause neither do the Mimes) while Dark Eldar codex doesn't mention Solitaires IIRC. So where did this retcon take place.

Check the 2nd edition codex quote on the previous page (made by Vaulkhar). The fluff in that codex makes him a member of the troupe - albeit one that lives apart from the other Harlequins and is feared and avoided by all other Eldar. Given that troupes appear to be nomadic and wander about from Craftworld to Craftworld (as well as other non-Craftworld Eldar enclaves), that would require the Solitaire to travel with the troupe.


Can't imagine the recruiting pitch for that one...

"Become a Solitaire! Get ignored and ostracized by everyone around you! And when you die, you'll probably have your soul get devoured by the Great Enemy!"

I'm sure they're just breaking down the door to the recruiting station to sign up for that one...

Hendarion
13-12-2010, 20:48
Can't imagine the recruiting pitch for that one...

"Become a Solitaire! Get ignored and ostracized by everyone around you! And when you die, you'll probably have your soul get devoured by the Great Enemy!"

I'm sure they're just breaking down the door to the recruiting station to sign up for that one...
Sounds kinda like Jesus. He knew he'd have to die for humanity to forgive them their sins. And still he did it.
I always see Solitaires as a mix between saviour, who sacrifices himself for the greater good by portraying the big enemy and keeping the fear of it alive and an obsessed and doomed maniac, touched by the Laughing God.

Edit:
I wonder if one could argue that Solitaires and High Avatars are lost to Cegorach and Slaanesh similar to how Exarchs are lost to their Aspect of Khaine. If so, you can imagine why a Solitaire is considered to be doomed, apart from the lost-soul-thing (although that is only true in the new fluff, the old fluff isn't that scary and grimdark for him as he just was what his name suggest - an outsider, a solitaire).

Idaan
13-12-2010, 20:50
Well, in that case if we go for the most current background the Citadel Journal is most current:


But The Dance is rarely performed, since the key part cannot be danced by any member of a masque. Only the mystic Solitaires – those touched by the Laughing god himself, who pass unrecognised as whim or design moves them – only these may dance the part of Slaanesh.


Little is known about the Solitaires, even amongst the Eldar. They have passed the sacred Ritual which all Harlequins must undertake, yet they live apart from other Harlequins. The Solitaires roam the Webway seeking out Eldar they believe can survive the Ritual, and take them to the Harlequin bands. It is said that the oldest and most powerful Solitaires become the dreaded guardians of the Black Library. On the extremely rare occasions when a Solitaire performs, he or she takes the part of Slaanesh and the Harlequin band will perform the legendary tale of the Birth of the Great Enemy – the most dangerous of all Harlequin masques. It is claimed that others have tried to take on the role of the Great Enemy and died or been driven insane!

I guess that, like with many bits of Eldar background, it keeps changing from edition to edition and author to author. We've had the same problem on whether or not the Exarchs fuse with their armour and the source of the spirit stones.

Eumerin
13-12-2010, 20:58
Sounds kinda like Jesus. He knew he'd have to die for humanity to forgive them their sins. And still he did it.
I always see Solitaires as a mix between saviour, who sacrifices himself for the greater good by portraying the big enemy and keeping the fear of it alive and an obsessed and doomed maniac, touched by the Laughing God.

Not really. Jesus didn't have to worry about having his soul devoured when he died.

;)

That's what really makes the 2nd ed. codex Solitaire fluff so bad. Solitaires are basically signing on to (probably) have their souls devoured when they die. You're only supposed to do stupid things like that if there's a material reward to enjoy beforehand (i.e. selling your soul to the Devil sort of thing). And the stupid "Path of Damnation" nonsense in the 4th edition codex is likely meant to be a reference to the same thing.


Edit - Wonder if Gav Thorpe will stick a Solitaire in one of his remaining Eldar novels? Could be interesting to see his take on it.


Edit2 -


I wonder if one could argue that Solitaires and High Avatars are lost to Cegorach and Slaanesh similar to how Exarchs are lost to their Aspect of Khaine. If so, you can imagine why a Solitaire is doomed, apart from the lost-soul-thing.

And that clashes with some of the earlier fluff, suggesting that Solitaires were in fact the closest to Cegorach. The implication was that Solitaires were so in tune with Cegorach that they could safely play the role of Slaanesh without being corrupted.

Hendarion
13-12-2010, 21:03
And that clashes with some of the earlier fluff, suggesting that Solitaires were in fact the closest to Cegorach. The implication was that Solitaires were so in tune with Cegorach that they could safely play the role of Slaanesh without being corrupted.
Truly. I have that also added in a concurrent edit of my own edit :p

ForgottenLore
13-12-2010, 21:18
... Solitaires are basically signing on to (probably) have their souls devoured when they die.

I'm not as up on Eldar fluff as all you guys but I never had the impression that becoming a Solitaire was a voluntary thing but rather was something that happened to a Harlequin by means of some outside force previously unidentified character flaw. You don't set out to become a Solitaire, you wake up one morning and go,"Crap, I'm a Solitare now"

That was always my impression.

Kage2020
13-12-2010, 21:27
Hence the idea that they are chosen by the Laughing God itself.

And this to and fro is why I stick with the older materials rather than whomever decide to get all doom-gloom. Even if you merge them it's not that bad as long as you don't go down the silly Pariah route, rather than just a pariah. Then you can have your unknown "Infinity Matrix technician" that, when he stands up to acknowledge the High Avatar, everyone around him goes, "Awwww, crap. Now I've got to go and sterilise the house" while reaching for the antibacterial hand detergent.

Kage

Lord Damocles
13-12-2010, 22:22
Check the 2nd edition codex quote on the previous page (made by Vaulkhar). The fluff in that codex makes him a member of the troupe - albeit one that lives apart from the other Harlequins and is feared and avoided by all other Eldar. Given that troupes appear to be nomadic and wander about from Craftworld to Craftworld (as well as other non-Craftworld Eldar enclaves), that would require the Solitaire to travel with the troupe.
This assumes that Troupes always stay together as they travel though (specifically the Solitaire staying with the rest of the Troupe). The information from the 2nd ed. codex still leaves open the possibility that the Solitaire, while still being a member of the Troupe, may travel seperately - perhaps rejoining the other Harlequins only for short or intermitant periods, or just for performances featuring Slaanesh (there's no need for the Solitaire to be present during the Fall of Lanthrilaq, or the Death of Light for example).

We have several examples of Solitaires traveling alone (eg. Daemonifuge), so they can't stay with the rest of the Troupe all of the time.

Eumerin
13-12-2010, 22:54
We have several examples of Solitaires traveling alone (eg. Daemonifuge), so they can't stay with the rest of the Troupe all of the time.

Keep in mind, though, that originally they didn't stay with the troupe at all. In the original WD fluff story, the Solitaire had apparently been on the Craftworld for at least 100 years. And the visiting troupe appears to have had no idea at all that there was even a Solitaire present.

Stonerhino
13-12-2010, 23:24
The Farseer contacts the ship's Circuit through the Eternal Matrix and feels all souls, alive and dead, recoil as they near the planet on which the Culexus temple is. Checked it before posting just to be sure.It is the fear that all phykers feel when in the presences of a blank. Which as far as I know can be turned down if not completely shut off.

It's not the Culexus assassins affecting the infinity circuit.

Bjorn Hellhammer
14-12-2010, 00:45
If I remember rightly the reason the Laughing God had to trick Slanesh for the Solitairs soul, it was because the Solitair did not wear a Soulstone due to his portrayal. Again from memory the Solitair was never completely part of the Troupe, but turned up to do his part and then separated. I can't remember, but in the Journal Codex I kinda remember that the Sol couldn't join a squad either.

Don't know or care about the new 'squad ' Harlies that are just about aspect warriors.

Eumerin
14-12-2010, 01:25
If I remember rightly the reason the Laughing God had to trick Slanesh for the Solitairs soul, it was because the Solitair did not wear a Soulstone due to his portrayal. Again from memory the Solitair was never completely part of the Troupe, but turned up to do his part and then separated. I can't remember, but in the Journal Codex I kinda remember that the Sol couldn't join a squad either.

Don't know or care about the new 'squad ' Harlies that are just about aspect warriors.

Harlequins don't need soulstones. The fluff that introduced the idea of the souls of Solitaires being claimed by Slaanesh also indicated that Harlequins in general are automatically protected by Cegorach when they die. The Solitaire was the sole exception in that fluff, as his soul was pre-claimed by Slaanesh.


Also, there have always been regular squad-type Harlequins. When Harlequins first appeared, they were a full-on army list with rank and file troops, heavy weapons troops (known as Death Jesters), etc... The change now is that GW dumbed the Harlequin line-up down so that everything counts as the basic rank and file model.

Bjorn Hellhammer
14-12-2010, 03:04
Yup, know that there always have been squad Harlies, just not happy with them being relagated to a single slot as they currently are. I just don't like losing a viable fun list, it's why I'm building a counts as list, slowly!

Like I said, my memory isn't perfect and I will be having a look in the compendium later. Not sure about the soulstones, but am pretty sure about Slanesh having to be cheated of the Solitairs soul and the Laughing God not always being successful.

Hendarion
14-12-2010, 04:49
Not sure about the soulstones, but am pretty sure about Slanesh having to be cheated of the Solitairs soul and the Laughing God not always being successful.
Trust us, both is true. They don't use stones, because Cegorach is their saviour. That doesn't count for the Solitaire as Cegorach needs to fight for that soul. However, this is only true in the new fluff. The old one is kinda the opposite. In the old one the Solitaire is the most chosen of all, the one that got touched by Cegorach.
Harlies never required SoulStones though.

Lord Malorne
14-12-2010, 10:36
Hmm, I can't recall that, where was that written?

Idaan
14-12-2010, 10:43
Citadel Journal armylist for instance:

All Harlequins must undertake a mysterious trial, known only as the Ritual. The Ritual is said to free them from the Great Enemy, which is why Harlequins have no fear of her, and need not wear a waystone. This is also why the Harlequins can roam the Webway at will without enduring the soul-draining which afflicts the other Eldar who spend too long exposed to the warp.



It is the fear that all phykers feel when in the presences of a blank. Which as far as I know can be turned down if not completely shut off.

It's not the Culexus assassins affecting the infinity circuit.I never argued that it was only Culexus Assassins. And the story explicitly says that the Infinity Circuit is affected, which is all I tried to prove.

LexxBomb
14-12-2010, 11:08
but according to the Inquisition War trilogy the Phoenix Lords patrol the webway as guardians of the Black Library...that doesn't quite mesh up with the harlequin info above.

Hendarion
14-12-2010, 12:37
but according to the Inquisition War trilogy the Phoenix Lords patrol the webway as guardians of the Black Library...that doesn't quite mesh up with the harlequin info above.
Why not? They aren't said to be the exclusive guardians, are they?

Stonerhino
14-12-2010, 19:06
I never argued that it was only Culexus Assassins. And the story explicitly says that the Infinity Circuit is affected, which is all I tried to prove.It is affected by the fear. Which as I pointed out it's a fear that all psykers fear when near a Culexus assassin. Nothing more. It did not interfere with the workings of the infinitly circuit. It scared the Eldar "Both living and dead". Granted it sacred them into a state of near hybornation, which is quite scared. It's still just fear.

Even that fear aura can be done by the Harlequins. In the dance "Death of Light" the person who viewed it was terrified beyond words.

Eumerin
14-12-2010, 19:16
Even that fear aura can be done by the Harlequins. In the dance "Death of Light" the person who viewed it was terrified beyond words.

Of course, it should be noted that Harlequins are supposed to be experts at this sort of thing. Half of the performance literally consists of them using their holographic suits to create illusions while releasing mind-altering gases on the crowd to either enhance the illusion or assist the crowd into a specific emotional state.

And if you're facing harlequins and know just what that short rod-like object they're wielding is capable of...

*shudder*

Stonerhino
14-12-2010, 19:19
I think for an Eldar to be scared beyond words is a pretty big deal. It's should be noted though that no Solitaires are present for "Death of Light".

Hendarion
14-12-2010, 19:26
Of course, it should be noted that Harlequins are supposed to be experts at this sort of thing. Half of the performance literally consists of them using their holographic suits to create illusions while releasing mind-altering gases on the crowd to either enhance the illusion or assist the crowd into a specific emotional state.
Not only physical effects. The ShadowSeers actually also amplify and project feelings into the audience.

Idaan
15-12-2010, 10:30
It is affected by the fear. Which as I pointed out it's a fear that all psykers fear when near a Culexus assassin. Nothing more. It did not interfere with the workings of the infinitly circuit. It scared the Eldar "Both living and dead". Granted it sacred them into a state of near hybornation, which is quite scared. It's still just fear.

Even that fear aura can be done by the Harlequins. In the dance "Death of Light" the person who viewed it was terrified beyond words.

Ok. So if a Pariah worked as an infinity circuit technician, would he scare the souls within the circuit?

bluemage
15-12-2010, 14:56
Solitaires are pariahs, lower case. Meaning people don't hang out with them. They're different from nulls. Some words have multiple meanings.

Hendarion
15-12-2010, 15:12
Solitaires are pariahs, lower case. Meaning people don't hang out with them.
You also could stick to the term and call them solitaires ;) Lower or upper case, the choice is yours.

Stonerhino
16-12-2010, 06:51
Ok. So if a Pariah worked as an infinity circuit technician, would he scare the souls within the circuit?Not if said Pariah had the ability to turn it way down so that they just seemed a little "Off" or even shut off the fear effect. Since we don't know all of the abilities and side effects of becoming a solitaire. We can not say for sure. But we can not make a judgement on it based off of a story about scared eldar who where going to attack psychic assassins. Human psychic assassins at that.

Polaria
16-12-2010, 07:26
The Assignment system used by Imperium distinguishes between several power levels of negative psionic levels:


Sigma // Tau
Psionically-dense individuals who are oblivious to warp fluctuations and manifestations of psychic talent.

Upsilon // Phi // Chi // Psi
Subjects with varying degrees of immunity to psyker powers.

Omega
Usually referred to as Untouchables, Pariahs, or Blanks. These individuals are so inert in the Warp as to actually exhibit negative psychic influence upon others. Primarily manifested as a small region of "blankness" surrounding the individual, it is impossible for psychic powers or warp creatures to penetrate this space.
Those at an Omega level of psi-negativity can easily be distinguished by others, as Imperial science has shown the dead-area surrounding the subject interferes with natural electrical-mental functions. This often results in irrational fear and loathing of the individual for normal humans. For psykers, however, Omega level persons are physically and mentally painful to be near.

Omega-Minus
Culexus Temple Assassins

So basically Solitaires can still be anti-psykers or negative psykers and be the exactly same thing than nulls, Untouchables, Pariahs and Culexus... Its just that Solitaires probably aren't Omega or Omega-Minus level.

Oh, and I don't think you can actually turn the negative psi "Off". It seems to be pretty much part of persons very essence, you either have the effect and its "On" all the time or you don't have it at all.

Lord Damocles
16-12-2010, 09:18
Well this has taken an odd turn...

Remember that Solitaires used to be able to buy psychic powers (White Dwarf Harlequin list, reprinted in 'Harlequins' in Warhammer 40,000 Compendium, pg.196).

Eumerin
16-12-2010, 17:32
I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that Solitaires are some sort of anti-psyker. They've never had any sort of rule like that, nor anything along those lines in their fluff descriptions.

Hendarion
16-12-2010, 18:05
Well... they would be Pariahs if you believe the "possession" thing that is written in the Lexicanum. Apart of that, it is rather contradictory - though not much more as Solitaire fluff contradicts itself anyway.

Idaan
16-12-2010, 18:22
I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that Solitaires are some sort of anti-psyker. They've never had any sort of rule like that, nor anything along those lines in their fluff descriptions.I think the source is here:


Spiritless: It is postulated by Imperial scholars that a Solitaire has no soul to speak of, and this may be true. They show no evidence of emotions and psychic powers which attack the mind have no effect on them whatsoever. A Solitaire does not have to take any Leadership tests of any kind (morale checks, pinning, etc.). In addition, any attack which relies upon the Solitaire’s Leadership value (for example a neuro-disruptor or the Farseer psychic power Mind War) have no effect and automatically fail
Note that this is the only entry in that whole codex not written from an omniscient 3rd person perspective. The scientific credibility of Imperial Scholars is widely known, and the effects of this rule can be explained by the Laughing God's constant protection (if he's protected from Slaanesh's attention, lesser stuff isn't going to affect him) and the lack of personality caused by the total identification with role.



Not if said Pariah had the ability to turn it way down so that they just seemed a little "Off" or even shut off the fear effect. Since we don't know all of the abilities and side effects of becoming a solitaire. We can not say for sure. But we can not make a judgement on it based off of a story about scared eldar who where going to attack psychic assassins. Human psychic assassins at that.
This ability comes from having no soul. How could you turn it down, by having just a little soul?
The fact that Culexus assassins can do it comes from the fact that they use wargear that amplifies the effect.
Anyway, you can't prove that they are Pariahs either. If there's no proof, they're not.


Well... they would be Pariahs if you believe the "possession" thing that is written in the Lexicanum. Apart of that, it is rather contradictory - though not much more as Solitaire fluff contradicts itself anyway.I don't think that there's ever been a link made between having been exorcised and becoming a Pariah. Dark Heresy's Radical's Handbook mentions only conscious resistance to psychic powers and immunity to mutation and possession.

Hendarion
16-12-2010, 18:31
I don't think that there's ever been a link made between having been exorcised and becoming a Pariah.
Well, Lexicanum does say:

The third is that the Eldar's soul will be ripped free from its body
Sounds to me like a soulless, no? A psychic null, a blank, a Pariah.
(apart from the suspicion we all have towards that claim)