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ashendant
10-12-2010, 14:05
I'm trying to play the game of connecting the dots here, im trying to see if the eldar paths can be connected to the eldar gods, it has a lot of speculation.(yes i used those that are listed in the lexicanum)(Bolded are those that i think are alreay joined)

Path of the Seer
Path of the Warrior
Path of Command
Path of the Artisan
Path of the Mariner
Path of the Dreamer
Path of the Outcast
Path of the Healer


Asuryan, the Phoenix King
Cegorach, God of the Harlequins
Isha The Mother of the Eldar race
Kaela Mensha Khaine God of War
Kurnous God of the Hunt
Lileath the Maiden, Goddess of Dreams
Morai-Heg the Crone, God of Fate/Souls
Vaul The artificer
Ynnead, God of the dead


Khaine-Warrior
Asuryan-Command
Lileath-Dreamer
Morai-Heg-Seer
Vaul-Artisan
Isha-Healer

Also has anybody has any idea what these two gods are?
Gia
Hoec


What do you think of this theory?

Son of Sanguinius
10-12-2010, 18:58
Hoec is the fantasy version of Cegorach, and I have no idea what Gia is, since Isha already fulfills the "mother-goddess" role in the Pantheon.

I am of the opinion that the paths, at their most basic, are unrelated to the gods. To my mind, the Paths represent little more than jobs in the craftworld setting. What makes them more involved is that the Eldar psyche is so vivid and capable of intense focus that they take their chosen task far more seriously (or put another way, become more emotionally involved) than most humans do.

I think that the only real connection the gods have to the paths is that the Eldar pray to and/or honor the gods that most readily identify with their chosen path, and by extension, most readily with the individual Eldar's psyche. A warrior venerates Khaine as Khaine represents the perfection of releasing anger. A healer venerates Isha as Isha represents the potency and natural balance of life.

The shorter version of what I'm saying is that the gods are not the genesis of the paths, but they are heavy symbolic influences as the Eldar delve more into their own psychology for inspiration and a way to shape their creativity.

Col. Tartleton
10-12-2010, 19:07
Don't forget Slaanesh. She's the most important of the Eldar deities. Reviled perhaps, but important. The Craftworlders fear her name. The Dark Eldar hide from her in dark places. Altansar worships her... or so it's hinted. I can't remember which side of deck they are.

And Morai Heg always struck me as being something like Slaanesh. Perhaps she is a primal form. The fear of death, the constant danger just a few steps away. The sonic weaponry, the feminine qualities. The sex factor... yeah it's there.

Hendarion
10-12-2010, 19:13
What do you think of this theory?

I think you are trying to make a connection that doesn't exist in each case. I think that Son of Sanguinius said it pretty well. The image of a God might influence the image of the path, but is not their origin. At least not for all of them.

ashendant
10-12-2010, 20:17
I think you are trying to make a connection that doesn't exist in each case. I think that Son of Sanguinius said it pretty well. The image of a God might influence the image of the path, but is not their origin. At least not for all of them.

where do i mention as the gods as the point of origin of the paths, i was talking about relations and possible connections

(actually another of my theories is that the eldar gods were created by the eldars in the paths)




And Morai Heg always struck me as being something like Slaanesh. Perhaps she is a primal form. The fear of death, the constant danger just a few steps away. The sonic weaponry, the feminine qualities. The sex factor... yeah it's there.
Not seeing it, morai heg is a crone, she's not a god of sensations or fear, she's the goddess of fate, souls and foresight(path of the warrior says morai heg gave foresight to the eldar), she's the one that tells the eldar how to avoid death, not how to feel it or experience it.

She probably like really old, if she really has the crone motif, old and haggard and i don't think many find that sexually attractive(then again i'm talking about humanity:shifty:)


Hoec is the fantasy version of Cegorach, and I have no idea what Gia is, since Isha already fulfills the "mother-goddess" role in the Pantheon.
Thanks for pointing that out, however there are two gods in fantasy with the almost the same name Loec(the one you mentioned) and Hoeth a god of learning and magic

Gia is only described as a consort of asuryan and khaine is lexicanum

Kage2020
10-12-2010, 21:32
I'm trying to play the game of connecting the dots here, im trying to see if the eldar paths can be connected to the eldar gods, it has a lot of speculation.
I would say that's a worth endeavour but, for me, I would say that we're dealing with a phenomenon that we have see argued for in another thread--that "Path" and "Way" are often confused and you could use this to your advantage.

Of course, I'm pushing my own interpretation of the 40k universe and the Eldar here but that's no illegal. Well, mostly... or to most. One of the two. ;)

For my own benefit I define only five Paths: Seer, Warrior, Steward, Seeker, and Outcast. I've found that this tends to smooth many of the inconsistencies when dealing with the Path but, well, I'm obviously going to say that. :D

Subsets of the Path are the Ways. Thus, for example, on the Path of the Warrior we have the "Way of the Howling Banshee," or on the Path of the Seer we have the "Way of the Warlock."

Thus in your schema:


Path of the Seer, Path of the Warrior
See the above.


Path of Command
Unnecessary. As expressed in the 'fluff' this is an expression of the Exarchs known as the Menshad Korum.


Path of the Artisan
That could be equally Path of the Seeker or Steward...


Path of the Mariner
Ditto.


Path of the Dreamer
Path of the Seeker


Path of the Outcast
:D

Seriously, sorry for the "sell," but for me it makes more sense to keep things simple when dealing with GW 'fluff.' When it comes down to FFG materials, on the other hand, the opposite situation applies.


Asuryan, the Phoenix King
For your own schema, should not Asuryan be the beginning and end of the wheel or journey that is the Path? The destination, rather than a part of the journey?

Actually, now that I think about it, if you are an RP'er you might want to check out the background on the elves of the Shadowrun setting. You might find it inspirational.

I would also submit that the Paths might have certain "aspects" that lead to different Ways, or at least if I use my terminology... :D


Khaine-Warrior
Yeppers.


Asuryan-Command
Nah. As expressed with the so-called "Path of Command," let this lie to Khaine as well.


Lileath-Dreamer
I would argue that Lileath, the Maiden, should represent the preferential state, or a state without the Path. She is the symbol of fertility and purity. It is her that guides Eldar procreation.


Morai-Heg-Seer
Yeppers.


Vaul-Artisan
For me, Seeker. Otherwise yes.


Hoec is the fantasy version of Cegorach...
Wow, that used to be Adamnan-na-Brionha. Things change so much.


...and I have no idea what Gia is, since Isha already fulfills the "mother-goddess" role in the Pantheon.
For those wanting to explore Eldar mythology, my knee-jerk reaction would be to use such deities as "sub-gods." That is they are a sub-set of broader themes. In this case, I would argue that while Isha remains the font of matriarchy, Gia may be a expression born of an individual world of the Eldar Empire. Thus, all worlds are blessed by Gia, but all are servants of Isha the Mother of All.


I am of the opinion that the paths, at their most basic, are unrelated to the gods. To my mind, the Paths represent little more than jobs in the craftworld setting. What makes them more involved is that the Eldar psyche is so vivid and capable of intense focus that they take their chosen task far more seriously (or put another way, become more emotionally involved) than most humans do.
On my own behalf, I both agree and disagree. All things come from the Gods and Goddesses, of course, but those are past things. In each Path--in each Way--there is the hope of rekindling the essence of the deity. An echo, if you will; a resonance that is felt in the heart of all Eldar. And for some? It is felt more powerfully. They become for a while avatars of the echo.

<grin>


The shorter version of what I'm saying is that the gods are not the genesis of the paths, but they are heavy symbolic influences as the Eldar delve more into their own psychology for inspiration and a way to shape their creativity.
I agree... And then some. :D


Don't forget Slaanesh. She's the most important of the Eldar deities. Reviled perhaps, but important. The Craftworlders fear her name. The Dark Eldar hide from her in dark places.
And thus, anathema.


And Morai Heg always struck me as being something like Slaanesh. Perhaps she is a primal form. The fear of death, the constant danger just a few steps away. The sonic weaponry, the feminine qualities. The sex factor... yeah it's there.
That would make sense. At the same time Morai-Heg becomes "the debt that all Eldar pay."


I think you are trying to make a connection that doesn't exist in each case. I think that Son of Sanguinius said it pretty well. The image of a God might influence the image of the path, but is not their origin. At least not for all of them.
And, yet, for those that push the idea of Eldar-mythology-as-reality it would make a whole lot of sense. Indeed, the Dark Eldar's "path" is little more than nihilism--the gods are dead, so the Craftworld Eldar are living a stupid dream.

Kage

ashendant
10-12-2010, 21:43
I never heard of the path of the seeker...
Also lileath is the goddess of dreams and joy so i guess, i think of her as more a goddess of youth and innocence and purity fertility and health is accomplished by the Mother of the triad of 3 female goddesses which is Isha

Kage2020
10-12-2010, 21:48
The Path of the Seeker is a fan "creation" that is liberally stolen from another game universe and which, yet, makes a bit more sense than some of the extant and official 'fluff.' In short, though, ignore if it you're looking for official information... Err, which you're not. :D

And, yes, the triad is a given (for me).

Kage

Shamana
10-12-2010, 21:55
Wasn't there some mention of Kurnous, the god of the hunt, somewhere in 40k?

ashendant
10-12-2010, 21:55
The Path of the Seeker is a fan "creation" that is liberally stolen from another game universe and which, yet, makes a bit more sense than some of the extant and official 'fluff.' In short, though, ignore if it you're looking for official information... Err, which you're not. :D

And, yes, the triad is a given (for me).

Kage
And doesn't make much sense since the path of the artisan is already divided in the paths of the poet, sculptor and such.

Then we agree that Lileath doesn't represent fertility, but er...(according to wiki)virginity...

It also says that the path of command requires having experience trough other military paths, and don't have the battle hunger of the path of the warrior.


Wasn't there some mention of Kurnous, the god of the hunt, somewhere in 40k?
Yes i have no idea what path could be associated with him, he's also the god that gave the eldar desire

Also, does Path of the warrior(book) mention a path of the healer?

Son of Sanguinius
10-12-2010, 22:03
For those wanting to explore Eldar mythology, my knee-jerk reaction would be to use such deities as "sub-gods." That is they are a sub-set of broader themes. In this case, I would argue that while Isha remains the font of matriarchy, Gia may be a expression born of an individual world of the Eldar Empire. Thus, all worlds are blessed by Gia, but all are servants of Isha the Mother of All.

Would these sub-gods then embrace concepts and emotions associated with multiple gods? Or vice versa, perhaps?


On my own behalf, I both agree and disagree. All things come from the Gods and Goddesses, of course, but those are past things. In each Path--in each Way--there is the hope of rekindling the essence of the deity. An echo, if you will; a resonance that is felt in the heart of all Eldar. And for some? It is felt more powerfully. They become for a while avatars of the echo.

<grin>

Makes sense, especially if the Eldar have an understanding of the nature of the gods and their connection to souls. Suddenly embodying an emotional or psychological concept becomes intertwined with literally becoming an avatar of a deity's essence, or echo as you call it.

EDIT: Yes, ashendant, there is a healer who features prominently for a small portion of the book.

ashendant
10-12-2010, 22:06
EDIT: Yes, ashendant, there is a healer who features prominently for a small portion of the book.
I'm asking if it's described as path.

Son of Sanguinius
10-12-2010, 22:13
I'm almost sure it was, but I'll go get the book to confirm.

ashendant
10-12-2010, 22:16
I'm almost sure it was, but I'll go get the book to confirm.

thanks, if it is could you update lexicanum with it please

Here's the link
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Eldar_Path

Son of Sanguinius
10-12-2010, 22:21
Still looking, but I avoid wiki and most encyclopedias on...I guess you could call them "moral" grounds. I think if you want to understand something, you should read the source material and not biased shorthand versions. :) Same goes for lexicanum.

ashendant
10-12-2010, 22:25
Still looking, but I avoid wiki and most encyclopedias on...I guess you could call them "moral" grounds. I think if you want to understand something, you should read the source material and not biased shorthand versions. :) Same goes for lexicanum.

I don't have path of the warrior otherwise i would be updating it

Iracundus
10-12-2010, 22:43
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261994

Every new path mentioned in that book is listed here.

Son of Sanguinius
10-12-2010, 22:48
Thanks, Iracundus. Saved me some work. :D

ashendant
10-12-2010, 22:50
I guess none is updating lexicanum them, also i knew about that thread i just wanted confirmation that it was outright stated that he was on the path of the healer or just said that he was a healer

Iracundus
10-12-2010, 22:56
It is explicitly said to be a path:


"To walk upon the Path of the Healer is to give ourselves over to our hopes, to turn our backs on our fear of the future. Hope is an eternal spring from which I drink, and it tastes sweet forever." p. 202, Path of the Warrior

ashendant
10-12-2010, 23:00
It is explicitly said to be a path:

Thanks, now if you could add that info to the lexicanum i would be very thankful


anyway
i've connected Isha with the path of the healer

Kage2020
11-12-2010, 01:46
And doesn't make much sense since the path of the artisan is already divided in the paths of the poet, sculptor and such.
If you will forgive me, I previously explained that it was a "fan creation." In that context it makes much sense insofar as what you describe are more "Ways." All it requires is that the the "Path of the Artisan" is actually a part of either "Seeker" or "Steward." That you don't find this to be a valid stance is fair enough but that also doesn't mean that it lacks merit or coherence with the 'fluff.'

Sorry that you find little merit beyond your own fan creation of making the Paths conform to the Eldar deities. :eyebrows:


Then we agree that Lileath doesn't represent fertility, but er...(according to wiki)virginity...
We're merely exchanging information and opinions. I cannot gainsay your decision to use Lexicanum as a valid reference.


It also says that the path of command requires having experience trough other military paths, and don't have the battle hunger of the path of the warrior.
This does not contradict my previous (fan!) suggestions. Those familiar with the older materials should see that but, if not, I would love to hear some feedback.


Would these sub-gods then embrace concepts and emotions associated with multiple gods? Or vice versa, perhaps?
What do you want them to do? I merely point out the potential that doesn't require that you take mythology as "fact."


I'm asking if it's described as path.
And, as pointed out previously, "path" and "way" are often interchangeable. YMMV.

I guess this is one of those points of "spirit vs. lore."

Kage

ashendant
11-12-2010, 10:56
If you will forgive me, I previously explained that it was a "fan creation." In that context it makes much sense insofar as what you describe are more "Ways." All it requires is that the the "Path of the Artisan" is actually a part of either "Seeker" or "Steward." That you don't find this to be a valid stance is fair enough but that also doesn't mean that it lacks merit or coherence with the 'fluff.'

Sorry that you find little merit beyond your own fan creation of making the Paths conform to the Eldar deities. :eyebrows:
It's not a fan creation as much as it's speculating by comparing path with gods...

Also seeker makes no sense as a job...



We're merely exchanging information and opinions. I cannot gainsay your decision to use Lexicanum as a valid reference.
I didn't use lexicanum i used wikipedia and searched the concept of triple goddess http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Goddess_%28Neopaganism%29



And, as pointed out previously, "path" and "way" are often interchangeable. YMMV.

I guess this is one of those points of "spirit vs. lore."

Kage
that depends

Idaan
11-12-2010, 16:32
(actually another of my theories is that the eldar gods were created by the eldars in the paths)

Impossible, as the Path was only created after the Fall which killed the gods.


Also has anybody has any idea what these two gods are?
Gia
Hoec

Gea is mentioned only once in the body of Eldar background, here:

Much of the early history of the Eldar is recorded in the form of traditional dances, recounting the stories of the ancient houses of Eldanesh and Ulthanash, the children of Kurnous and Isha, Gea and her twin consorts Khaine the Bloody Handed God and Asuryan the Phoenix King.She probably is an Earth goddess, but a more chthonic one, representing the previous stage of the Eldar civilisation before they started agriculture and all that fertility thing. She might be the original great mother of which Isha, Lileath and Morai-Heg were originally aspects. Or, given the fact that she's Asuryan's wife, she might represent the distinction between Heaven and Earth, or Materium and Immaterium. But it's only speculation.

Hoec is the legendary Wanderer mentioned on p19 of the current Eldar Codex. He walks the Webway since the dawn of time and knows all of its secrets. The Alaitocii Pathfinders are said to revere him, though it's unclear whether he's a god or just a (for a lack of better word) totemic focus, like the Banshee and Scorpion are for Aspect Warriors. Wonder if "Path of the Outcast" will have more on him.

And here's an answer Gav Thorpe gave on his blog to a similar question. Could be of some help:


Question for the day, from Xisor:

“ Exarchs are Exarchs because they’re ‘trapped by Khaine’. Taking Eldar overlap of myth and actual ‘scientific/precise’ language, is the nature of ‘becoming an exarch’ related to the continued existence/pull of the god?”

Right, let’s get started with some nice theology/ metaphysics! First off we must decide how much of Khaine as an entity is a mythological analogy and, because of the funkiness of the warp, how much a reality. At a basic level, as with all myths and belief systems, the Eldar gods are analogies. Khaine is a representation of the murderous passion and destructive potential that exists within every Eldar. As such, his continuing existence is simply a reflection of the Eldar’s continued need for aggression and violence (mainly to protect themselves in a hostile universe).

It is explicitly stated that Eldar can become trapped on any Path, so for those of the Path of the Warrior this is described as being trapped by Khaine. Are healers who do not move from their path trapped by Isha? Are Bonesingers trapped by Vaul? From that standpoint it might simply be a feature of the Eldar language that the state of becoming an Exarch is simply described in these terms; a linguistic shorthand.

However, this leads one to wonder why it is the Eldar believe that the other gods were slain when Khaine survived, as they still need healers and engineers but do not require the continued existence of Isha and Vaul to explain this. Which brings us to the Avatars…

I would say that the continuing existence of Khaine in the form of the Avatars is a chicken-and-egg situation. For much of the time this fragment of psychic energy given material form is inert. The Avatar sits dormant until the call to war, so it must be assumed that it has only a small effect upon the Eldar in this state otherwise they would be in a state of permanent, violent agitation. As described in the background, it appears that the process of awakening the Avatar is begun from within the Avatar itself, and is completed by the Exarchs and Warlocks with the sacrifice of the Young King. What first stirs the Avatar?

The Avatar’s throne is connected to the Infinity Circuit of the craftworld, itself a gestalt psychic intelligence of the living and dead Eldar; each is also a sub-network of the massive Eternal Matrix that exists alongside the webway connecting all of the craftworlds together on a faint but potentially powerful psychic level. That the Infinity Circuit is mainly powered by the psychic energy of the dead may be important here. The death of the Eldar gods, their removal from the warp, may be a euphemism for the withdrawing of the Eldar psychic presence from the warp into the semi-material world of the Infinity Circuits. Whatever powers were once represented by Isha and Vaul. Kurnous and Lileath, no longer exist as part of the diminishment of the Eldar following the Fall.

For reasons of pure survival if nothing else, the Eldar needed to keep their god of war; their intrinsic capability for violence. This manifested itself in the forming of the Avatars as a lodestone for their violent tendencies. The psychic gestalt of the Infinity Circuit exists on a level beyond the material and so can work as an early warning system for oncoming conflict. It resonates with the minds of the Eldar, so as Farseers and Exarchs, and other Eldar, become troubled to a certain level, even on an unconscious plane, the Infinity Circuit will pick up on this and respond by stirring the Avatar, thus signalling that war is approaching and the Eldar need to prepare.

In ‘real’ terms, I see it like this. When the Fall happens and Slaanesh is created, the psychic energy of the Eldar, as represented by the mythical gods, clashes with the newly born Warp Power. Obviously within the context of the mythology, this conflict would be represented by Khaine, their god of war. While the Eldar die in their billions, a small fragment of their surviving warp presence manages to protect a few, becoming manifested as the Avatars of Khaine.

What does this mean for the Exarchs? For this we have to go back to Asurmen and the founding of the shrines. In my version of events, the Avatars were born active to some degree; that is, they exerted their warlike influence over the Eldar, protecting them against the birth of Slaanesh. However, Khaine’s continued presence (that is, the continuation of the capability for extreme rage and violence within the Eldar psyche) would soon become as much of a peril as the emotional free-for-all that led to the Fall. The Avatars were feeding on and being fed by the Slaanesh-Eldar conflict in the warp. They needed to be put in their place, and this meant that the Eldar had to learn to control their warlike instincts.

This brings us to Asurmen and the first Aspect Temples. Asurmen was able to create the first path, that of the warrior, which through ritual and practice allows the Eldar to suppress their violent instincts until needed. To do so, Asurmen first needed to embrace his violent nature rather than fight it from outside, mastering his urges with pure willpower. In order to spread the teaching of the path, he recruited the first Exarchs, Eldar capable of performing the same feat of will. This teaching, the Path of the Eldar, will always require instructors for following generations, and thus there must always be a few Eldar willing, unconsciously but probably guided by the Infinity Circuit as hinted at in Path of the Warrior, to embrace their warrior nature in order that they can pass on the techniques of control required for the Eldar to keep their violent tendencies at bay; also to continue to promulgate the martial prowess required to keep the Eldar alive in a universe that seems determined to destroy them.

In summary, the Exarchs exist to contain the continued influence of Khaine on the one hand, but also to ensure Khaine’s continued existence. A rather distasteful but appropriate analogy can be made with a Champion of a Chaos God. A Chaos Champion requires the input of warp energy from his chosen deity to continue to achieve his goals, while the Chaos Power he serves requires mortal followers to continue to propagate its existence. The Eldar need to be able to fight but not be consumed again by violence, and so between them the Exarchs and the Avatar exist to act as a valve mechanism for this destructive behaviour.

More later…

Kage2020
11-12-2010, 16:52
It's not a fan creation as much as it's speculating by comparing path with gods...
That's called fan speculation--or any of a number of other things--no matter how you might want to spin it. Don't take this as a criticism, though, since I'm personally of the opinion that the fan materials tend to be better than the published materials. (Not due to an inadequacy of the authors.)


Also seeker makes no sense as a job...
You might want to ramp up the argument a bit more, ashendant. I think you just performed the thread equivalent of sticking your tongue out and going "Nyuuuh" without actually considering the implications of what you were disagreeing with. Suffice to say, however, that in this context "Seeker" covers "jobs"--I use this term because you do, not because I think that "jobs" is the correct concept that the Eldar Path encapsulates--that deal with searching, e.g. scientists, artists, etc.


I didn't use lexicanum i used wikipedia and searched the concept of triple goddess http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Goddess_%28Neopaganism%29
Another rigid source of academic information! :D

(I'm being tongue-in-cheek here. Sorta.)


that depends
Zing!

:eyebrows:

Now to go and consider the implications of Gav Thorpe's commentary...

Kage

Tindalos
11-12-2010, 17:05
Urgh, the Family Tree of the Eldar Gods is confusing at best.

Gea, as Asuryan and Khaine's consort, is probably the mother of Isha and Kernous (As being Vaul's neice and nephew, must be the child of either Asuryan or Khaine. Yet they are also his Sister and Brother). Of course Isha is then Mother of Lileath, who is the lover of Kernous, which is likely her father, and is in any case the lover of her mother.
The Eldar Pantheon is nearly as bad as the Egyptian one.

It is also useful to note that Isha is goddess of the Harvest, not the Earth, which would most likely be Gea.

Idaan
11-12-2010, 17:41
Given how their DNA was engineered to root out mutations and genetic diseases, there probably wasn't any stigma to incest in the ancient Eldar society as it had no ill effects. If anything, it allowed bloodlines to be kept pure through aeons - Yriel is an heir to a guy who lived 60 millions of years ago after all.

ashendant
11-12-2010, 18:28
That's called fan speculation--or any of a number of other things--no matter how you might want to spin it. Don't take this as a criticism, though, since I'm personally of the opinion that the fan materials tend to be better than the published materials. (Not due to an inadequacy of the authors.)
Meh kay



You might want to ramp up the argument a bit more, ashendant. I think you just performed the thread equivalent of sticking your tongue out and going "Nyuuuh" without actually considering the implications of what you were disagreeing with. Suffice to say, however, that in this context "Seeker" covers "jobs"--I use this term because you do, not because I think that "jobs" is the correct concept that the Eldar Path encapsulates--that deal with searching, e.g. scientists, artists, etc.
i should've been more clear, what i mean is that you're trying to join everything in one path, your path of the seeker is just drop civilian paths here, except being civilian is not a job, nor being a militant(yeah my english was poor here), the paths tend to deal with broad generalizations yes but not as broad to define a entire social status, like you're trying to do, being a artisan is a job, being a seeker isn't(unless it's defined in fiction as a job which in this one isn't) the path of the warrior describes the Army and the Airforce(damm you eagle pilots)the path of the mariner describes the Navy(Space Navy), like the path of the Artisan represents art and possibly crafts, and the path of dreamer is the one that actually represents self-improvement



Another rigid source of academic information! :D

(I'm being tongue-in-cheek here. Sorta.)

It fits with the concept
Lileath-Maiden-Youth,Innocence,Virginity,Immagination
Isha-Mother-Fertility,Motherhood,harvest
Morai-heg-Crone-Age,Experience,Fate,Death

Kage2020
11-12-2010, 22:08
It's getting a tad hard to understand, now, but I'll persevere!


i should've been more clear, what i mean is that you're trying to join everything in one path,
No, that would be associating everything with five Paths: Seer, Warrior, Seeker, Steward, and Outcast. Five. :D


...your path of the seeker is just drop civilian paths here...
I think that you've missed something fundamental and quite significant to understanding what I was doing. Indeed, as far as I can tell what you've done is latched on to the term "Path" in the term "Path of the Seeker" and for some reason believe that I'm replacing all the other "Paths" (as they're often referred to, e.g. Path of the Artisan). That would be incorrect.

The term "Path of the Seeker" refers to a category that contains numerous Ways. Think of it like a box when you're moving house. All the kitchen stuff goes into a box together and you might write "kitchen" on the outside to let you know when you get to the new house that in that box is all your kitchen stuff. Same thing with Path (the box) and Way (stuff that you put in the box).

Thus, for example, you might have the Path of the Warrior (the box) within which is the Way of the Striking Scorpion, or the Way of the Howling Banshee, or whatever. The Path of the Seeker might contain Artisan, Explorer, Scientist, etc. Steward would contain things like Healer, Infinity Circuit Technician (!), or even, to confuse matters, Artisan (!! ;)). Seer contains things like Warlock, Bonesinger, etc.

See? It's just the same as the 'fluff' when you talk about the Path of the Warrior that contains different aspects. This is just another "box" term like that.


...broad to define a entire social status...
Social status is a whole different kettle of fish to Path, though I would say it certainly would involve it.


It fits with the concept
I wasn't questioning the obviousness of the similarity with the "Mother Goddess."

Kage

Idaan
11-12-2010, 22:26
Kage, how do the Paths introduced in "Path of the Warrior" (eg. Path of Dreaming, Path of Awakening and Path of the Healer) fit in with your theory?

Kage2020
11-12-2010, 22:39
Just dandy, thank you very much. :D

I must admit that I forget what the Path of Awakening does, but off the top of my head both Path of Dreaming fits into Seeker, while Path of the Healer goes into Steward.

Kage

ashendant
11-12-2010, 23:52
No, that would be associating everything with five Paths: Seer, Warrior, Seeker, Steward, and Outcast. Five. :D


I think that you've missed something fundamental and quite significant to understanding what I was doing. Indeed, as far as I can tell what you've done is latched on to the term "Path" in the term "Path of the Seeker" and for some reason believe that I'm replacing all the other "Paths" (as they're often referred to, e.g. Path of the Artisan). That would be incorrect.

what i meant was that you consider civilian "paths", as "ways" in one path, which according to you it just a big list of exceptions that aren't in the other four more important paths

Kage2020
12-12-2010, 00:09
I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're trying to say. Would you care to clarify? I've got a sneaking suspicion that your getting the wrong end of the stick again, but... Well, I could be wrong as well. I just cannot tell. The fact that you're talking about the significance of a path ("important") seems to suggest this if nothing else.

Kage

ashendant
12-12-2010, 00:38
I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're trying to say. Would you care to clarify? I've got a sneaking suspicion that your getting the wrong end of the stick again, but... Well, I could be wrong as well. I just cannot tell. The fact that you're talking about the significance of a path ("important") seems to suggest this if nothing else.

Kage

Your path of the seeker is nothing more than all other civilian paths all mixed in just for the sake of fitting them in one path

Kage2020
12-12-2010, 00:48
Your path of the seeker is nothing more than all other civilian paths all mixed in just for the sake of fitting them in one path
Which is just mind-blowingly incorrect. "Seeker" is merely for those Paths that quest for something. Remember that in my construction there are four other Paths, or three if you discount Warrior since you mention "civilian."

Count 'em:

Warrior. Military stuff.
Seer. Psychic stuff.
Seeker. Err, seeking stuff.
Steward. Maintaining stuff.
Outcast. Getting the hell out of there.

Really not sure where you're coming from, but it's late so it's probably my fault.

Amusingly, though, you can have much fun by associating each of these "Paths" with Eldar deities. The joy... :shifty: :D

Anyway, please continue posting information on your gods and the association with the Paths. Do you have any further materials on it that links it into the background of the Eldar?

kage

Hendarion
12-12-2010, 07:25
Kage, I think you're doing too much Kageverse fan-fiction lately and confuse the guys ;)

ashendant
12-12-2010, 11:15
Anyway, please continue posting information on your gods and the association with the Paths. Do you have any further materials on it that links it into the background of the Eldar?

kage
No, i can't think of any more connections

Sephiroth
12-12-2010, 16:19
Kage, I think you're doing too much Kageverse fan-fiction lately and confuse the guys ;)

I have always found Kage-verse Eldar refreshingly interesting; reminds me of WD127, compared to some of the Eldar's latest exploits in GW background, which just leaves me shaking my head. :p

Kage2020
12-12-2010, 17:07
My bad. On a thread of fan speculation I thought that I would chip some more in. I'll try not to let any more discussion and speculation happen in a thread, Hendarion. ;)

Thanks, Sephiroth. My neck now hurts since the weight of my inflated head is dragging it towards the floor. ;) Anyway, best get back to discussing 40k otherwise the mods will close another thread. :eyebrows:

Kage

Hendarion
12-12-2010, 19:27
My bad. On a thread of fan speculation I thought that I would chip some more in. I'll try not to let any more discussion and speculation happen in a thread, Hendarion. ;)
Naaa, since it was speculation thread anyway, it wasn't a problem. It just has seemed to confuse some guys a bit :p

Kage2020
12-12-2010, 19:36
It is the cross that weighs me down... Rather than a knee-jerk response where everything has to be named a Path, I look for (and in this case pilfer ;)) a means by which you can avoid it. Same thing with the ordo of the Inquisition. Why keep naming everything ordo this or that when you can devise an approach that not only solves that issue, but also addresses the idea of "rank" in the Inquisition and smooths out the issues of the "Thorpe" vs. "Abnett" approach. :D

In terms of associating the Eldar deities to the Path, though, I like the idea. It's simple enough to do and, of course, much simpler in my own construction (e.g. with five Paths you only have to make five associations).

Then again I'm quirky like that. I wanted to use the Eldar Futhark with its three aettir representing the core concepts of the Past, Present, and Future. Still want to do it, but it's increasingly hard to get the fans to wildly speculate. :D

Kage

GavT
13-12-2010, 09:44
Just to monkey around with everybody's train of thought, here is my take on Eldar paths, and what I have in mind when describing them in the novels...

http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/2010/12/13/path-theory/

Gav

Iracundus
13-12-2010, 10:44
Artisan – The creative urge. This includes poets, artists, artesans. I hinted that this is about expression, so that an Eldar on this Path lacks introspection, doing away with the cultures and traditions that bind their society together without any sense of shame.

...


Awakening – This is an exploration of self (ego and super-ego) which the Eldar can embark upon to better understand their own goals and desires.

...

Explorer – Eldar have a wanderlust, to see the universe and explore distant stars. This is not the same as being outcast (more in a moment) and includes being a ship’s crew, steersman, and so on.

...

To become trapped on a Path is is give in wholly to the underlying emotional cause, rather than the physical representation. An Exarch is trapped in his or her anger. A Bonesinger is trapped in the creative moment. Others may become locked in selfless devotion or grief. The nature of this is that the trapped Eldar cannot see that they are trapped, because they are locked in a cycle of the same emotion without any context or self-awareness. The oddity is the Farseer, who makes a conscious choice to continue to explore their psychic being, knowing full well that this will eventually doom them to a crystalline experience, becoming one with the energy of the infinity circuit. Another exception are the Autarchs, though whether one can be trapped on the Path of Command is a whole canof worms…




Awakening – From the description in Path of the Warrior, it seemed like an exploration of the id almost in how there was described to direct experience and then action without introspection (like that in Dreaming) or apparent conscious thought.

Explorer - The BFG article on the Craftworld Eldar has Path of the Mariner with further specialization within to Helmsmen and Wayfarers (navigator).

How would being a ship crewman necessarily equate to being an Explorer and seeing the universe? Although Craftworld Eldar fleets definitely can go elsewhere, they also can be just patrolling their Craftworld's nearby vicinity. I guess one could argue that is perhaps why some go become Outcast, because this is not enough for them.

As for being trapped without awareness, isn't an Exarch (to take just one example of a Trapped Eldar) aware at least of the overt details since they are obviously dressed ritually in their Exarch gear, while other Paths may have their own distinct titles and ritual dress/gear for those trapped on it?

I always imagined a Farseer for example to be trapped by the intricacies of runic lore and maybe even duty to the Eldar: they get stuck trying to foresee and prevent every disaster that may happen in their future, or bettering their runic abilities in order to do so, in what is an obviously eternal Sisphyean task. This reflects the 2nd Eldar Codex where it certainly does not seem a conscious choice:



The Witch Path is almost as dangerous and enticing as the Path of the Warrior. The intricacies and challenges of runic lore can entrap a Seer, drawing his mind so far long the Witch Path that it becomes impossible for him to turn back. Just as warriors who are trapped on the Warrior Path become Exarchs, so Seers who are unable to leave the Witch Path become Farseers. Once an Eldar assumes the mantle of the Farseer the rest of his life is pre-determined; he can never tread any other path again. p. 18, 2nd edition Eldar Codex

Whether one can be trapped on the Path of Command is interesting, since clearly an Autarch is not trapped (Yriel was Autarch before being an Outcast then returned to being an Autarch). I would argue that the nature of the Eldar mind means yes to any Path and the trap may also be similar to the Farseer conception: being caught in the intricacies of strategy and planning and fascinated by the emergent order of a well crafted plan out of the chaos of battle. Where a Farseer is trapped manipulating the future, through runes and influencing events, one trapped on the Path of Command could be trapped manipulating the present, through manipulating troops and units.

Kage2020
13-12-2010, 14:13
Just to monkey around with everybody's train of thought, here is my take on Eldar paths, and what I have in mind when describing them in the novels...
Excellent. More meat for the grinder. :D


I’ve been following some online discussions on the Paths of the Eldar and thought I’d take a quick break from Path of the Seer to explain a little of my thinking behind the Eldar Paths and how I have interpreted them for the novels...
Overall I like it, and some bits I really like. While our interpretations would agree with the overall intent of the Path, one obvious difference is that I "preload" certain protections in the childhood (both social and physical) of the Eldar in the creation of a barrier within the psyche of the individual Eldar.


To my mind, each Path has two parts: the overt incarnation and the underlying experience the Eldar is learning to cope with.
Which I like a lot and will pilfer and adopt as my own and call him George. It makes sense with the Warrior (i.e. the different Aspects) both as internal develop and external expression, and the same would logically (ha!) apply to the other Paths as well.


Awakening – This is an exploration of self (ego and super-ego) which the Eldar can embark upon to better understand their own goals and desires.
This one I'm torn about, since my knee-jerk reaction would be to see this as a point of introspection between one Way and another and which ultimately informs them of which Way or Path they shall walk next. On the other hand I like the imagery.


Mourning – Dealing with matters of grief and loss as an Eldar is also a very serious business, and so to avoid the brain-melting depths of sadness, most control their grief. Those on the Path of Mourning can give vent to the full darkness of loss they can feel.
I was initially torn over this one as well, but on reflection it makes sense.


The point is, by progressing along several Paths during their life, the Eldar both perfect a series of useful skills, but more importantly learn how to manage their psyches in a safe fashion.
Other than the aforementioned preloading, this would certainly be the goal of the Path.


To be an Outcast is to be free from the burden of all of thos mental controls keeping everything check, but also at the mercy of every passing feeling and whim.
I've always had a problem with the idea of an Eldar eschewing the Path completely, but rather removing themselves from the strictures of Eldar culture (which is not just the Path).


To become trapped on a Path is is give in wholly to the underlying emotional cause, rather than the physical representation. An Exarch is trapped in his or her anger. A Bonesinger is trapped in the creative moment. Others may become locked in selfless devotion or grief.
That's a good point.


The nature of this is that the trapped Eldar cannot see that they are trapped, because they are locked in a cycle of the same emotion without any context or self-awareness.
Hmmn... I like this as explaining how an individual makes their "transition" to become a paramount practitioner of the Path. Of course, acceptance is another part of this, such as when the Exarch takes up their armour.


The oddity is the Farseer, who makes a conscious choice to continue to explore their psychic being, knowing full well that this will eventually doom them to a crystalline experience, becoming one with the energy of the infinity circuit.
I don't see why it necessarily has to be different. I would argue, as I have done in the past, that the answers comes to us from the Path of the Warrior with reference to the difference between Exarchs and the Menshad Korum. Rather than be trapped on the one Way, they are trapped by the Path but, as a result of this, also distant from each specific emotion/manifestation. Thus, Farseer. (This also opens up the ground for having very specific paramount practitioners.)


Another exception are the Autarchs, though whether one can be trapped on the Path of Command is a whole canof worms…
And the wonderful thing is that as above it doesn't have to be. :D

Kage

Sephiroth
13-12-2010, 18:40
Just to monkey around with everybody's train of thought, here is my take on Eldar paths, and what I have in mind when describing them in the novels...

http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/2010/12/13/path-theory/

Gav

Interesting, although I am not sure why an Eldar would need to find a way to manage, using the Path of Service example, their 'generosity'.


Service The desire to help others. Perhaps think of it as the charitable, selfless instinct. Those on the Path of Service engage in any number of activities to help others, including serving them tea in the canteen, keeping the grass cut in the parks, or whatever.

I can understand how dangerous an Eldar lost in anger, or lacking any way to control or direct his aggression would be, likewise how self-destructive sadness can be, trapped in mourning, but I can't imagine (maybe my own problem) how a really charitable Eldar poses a danger to himself or others.

He keeps selling his possessions on the Infinity Network Ebay? :angel:

Son of Sanguinius
13-12-2010, 19:01
Interesting, although I am not sure why an Eldar would need to find a way to manage, using the Path of Service example, their 'generosity'.

It's hard to imagine the "good" emotions getting as extreme as the "negative" emotions, but I believe it. An Eldar who becomes psychologically (and arguably physically) obsessed with generosity can become just as dangerous as an Eldar that gives in to its anger. Maybe the generosity itself doesn't become corrupted, but at the very least, the Eldar in question needs to temper that generosity before it becomes detrimental to that Eldar and those around him.

Tindalos
13-12-2010, 19:34
Interesting, although I am not sure why an Eldar would need to find a way to manage, using the Path of Service example, their 'generosity'.



I can understand how dangerous an Eldar lost in anger, or lacking any way to control or direct his aggression would be, likewise how self-destructive sadness can be, trapped in mourning, but I can't imagine (maybe my own problem) how a really charitable Eldar poses a danger to himself or others.

He keeps selling his possessions on the Infinity Network Ebay? :angel:

Quite possibly, before the fall you had cults of givers, nigh-masochistic Eldar who, beliving they were unworthy of anything, went around giving away whatever they could.
How could they be so selfish to let food pass their lips when another may be in need of sustenance?
How could they deign to wear clothing when the cloth could go to make something else, a mere sack-cloth will do.

Like flagellants who use denial instead of whips, the desire to give can lead to an inability to take, to do, to live. The Path of Service allows someone to help others, without losing sight of their own needs.

Idaan
13-12-2010, 20:07
Interesting, although I am not sure why an Eldar would need to find a way to manage, using the Path of Service example, their 'generosity'.



I can understand how dangerous an Eldar lost in anger, or lacking any way to control or direct his aggression would be, likewise how self-destructive sadness can be, trapped in mourning, but I can't imagine (maybe my own problem) how a really charitable Eldar poses a danger to himself or others.

He keeps selling his possessions on the Infinity Network Ebay? :angel:

Just look at Angelina Jolie.



Just to monkey around with everybody's train of thought, here is my take on Eldar paths, and what I have in mind when describing them in the novels...

http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/2010/12/13/path-theory/

Gav

That's great! If there was a way to put images on this subforum, I'd post the gif with that fat guy in a shirt and tie doing the happy dance and screaming "you're awesome" towards the viewer. But we'll have to do with the description.

One question though: as Path of the Artisan is about creation and the Bonesinger is "trapped in the creative moment" is it correct to assume that the Bonesingers are trapped on the Path of the Artisan just as Exarchs are on the Path of the Warrior? Is this why you earlier stated that there's only several Bonesingers per Craftworld in your interpretation?

Kage2020
13-12-2010, 21:12
An alternate would be that it could be the Artisan equivalent of the Way of the Warlock on the Path of the Seer, i.e. you must formerly have been on the Way of the Artisan before one can take up the psychic flute, as it were. The other wonderful thing about this concept is that it raises the possibility of paramount practitioner Bonesingers, which would likewise give another reason for them to be rare on a given craftworld.

In fact, the term Bonesinging has reminded me of a cool little idea that a friend had for an RP a while back. Apparently he had been singing while on the toilet and had realised he could get some really funk harmonics and resonances going on. Thus, his science au toilette (or whatever) showed up as a group of elven mages that would use musical harmonics and resonance as a way of building up their magic to more than they could achieve individually. (Musical psychic gestalt. Go nameology!)

Anyway the point being that I just had an image of numerous Bonesingers doing something similar and shaping entire starships--wraithbone flowing like mercury. :D

Err, I better go and take my dried frog pills.

Kage

GavT
14-12-2010, 10:55
Some thoughts on the replies.

On the Path of the Artisan, one could equate the differences between professional artists and illustrators, and those that create 'pure' art. Perhaps the Bonesinger angle is a bit misleading, and maybe we need something else - an eldar who creates art with no practical application whatsoever, so caught up in expressing every passing moment and whim that they lose sense of everything else. Philosophers perhaps :D

And I agree with Kage2020 on the childhood thing. In my view of the eldar, childhood on a craftworld is spent learning how not to do lots of things - shut off that psychic beacon, not give in to every want and desire. In many ways it is a more extreme form of maturing that humans go through, from instant gratification of the infant, through the selfishness and indestructability of youth, to the more considered (in some...) understanding of emotion in adulthood. Through the Path the eldar can then learn to access those closed-off abilities and emotions to experience them in a safe way.

Iracundus - I think a craftworld fleet is made up of autonomous ships so that they will probably have a system of agreement that they take it in turns to perform different duties and then get 'free time' to go off on trade missions, explorations, forays to the Crone Worlds and so on. If I remember right, one of the things about Yriel is that he disappeared with much of the Iyanden fleet in tow, thus becoming outcast.

I also agree on the Farseer thing - they become detached from the phsyical, temporal world and lose themselves utterly on the skein of fate, the crystalisation of their bodies being symptomatic of this. I certainly tried to get this across with some of the Eldrad background and his growin obsession with the eternal matrix and the creation of Ynnead. They become esoteric, unable to relate to the present, until finally they are lost altogether in the fabric of the infinity circuit. As with all Paths, there is a point at which an eldar, knowingly or not, faces a choice to continue, or considers learning complete and moves path. A Farseer, when he or she ceases to be a normal seer or warlock, has passed that point and is committed until death or becoming a slightly tacky ornament in the Dome of Crystal Seers. There are seers who are not warlocks and not Farseers, so the distinction has to be about something.

And yes, generosity, hope, happiness were all part of the Fall. Slaanesh, if anything, is even more about manipulating positive emotions and desires than negative ones. One of the contributing factors of the Fall was the lack of labour required from the Eldar. If there was a large enough sub-caste of eldar permanently willing to labour and serve the others, it would be perilous for the rest of the craftworld society, risking a return to indolence and decadence.

Good stuff, all very interesting (though not getting Pathof the Seer finished for this Friday :shifty:).

Gav

Iracundus
14-12-2010, 11:07
In fact, the term Bonesinging has reminded me of a cool little idea that a friend had for an RP a while back. Apparently he had been singing while on the toilet and had realised he could get some really funk harmonics and resonances going on. Thus, his science au toilette (or whatever) showed up as a group of elven mages that would use musical harmonics and resonance as a way of building up their magic to more than they could achieve individually. (Musical psychic gestalt. Go nameology!)


Psychic choirs is how I have always imagined the larger items get crafted, rather than just one lone Bonesinger doing it. They would be like the conductors or lead singers, crafting the subtle things like engines and targeting systems with subtle modulations while the rest sing supporting roles and lend their psychic ability towards crafting more technically simple, but still vital parts (such as walls and bulkheads). I imagine one just starting out on the Path might just be told to sing a simple note, but with all their endurance and lending their innate psychic strength (if not their skill) to the group project. The crafting of a major item therefore can be seen as the physical manifestation of a symphony given form and motion.

One wonders whether other Eldar like to witness such performances. "Would you care to come with me to a Bonesinging concert tonight? I hear they're going to sing a Titan pulsar."



I think a craftworld fleet is made up of autonomous ships so that they will probably have a system of agreement that they take it in turns to perform different duties and then get 'free time' to go off on trade missions, explorations, forays to the Crone Worlds and so on. If I remember right, one of the things about Yriel is that he disappeared with much of the Iyanden fleet in tow, thus becoming outcast.

This would suggest then that Craftworld fleets have far more autonomy than comparable Imperial fleets. I always saw Yriel's absconding with a personal fleet as one of the dangers of having a touchy charismatic warlord leading your military forces, and the dangers of the Eldar forming loyalty to individuals over the Craftworld as a whole. It raises the obvious question of civilian control of a Craftworld's military.



As with all Paths, there is a point at which an eldar, knowingly or not, faces a choice to continue, or considers learning complete and moves path. A Farseer, when he or she ceases to be a normal seer or warlock, has passed that point and is committed until death or becoming a slightly tacky ornament in the Dome of Crystal Seers. There are seers who are not warlocks and not Farseers, so the distinction has to be about something.

I guess this is where I have trouble reconciling with your earlier statement regarding non-self awareness of their repeating emotional cycle. Surely a Farseer is conscious they are called Farseer by others and is given the ritual gear of a Farseer. Surely they must be aware of the implications of being called Farseer (i.e. you're trapped and going nowhere).

AndrewGPaul
14-12-2010, 11:15
I would have thought that by the time they're recognised as a Farseer, and get given the ritual pointy helmet and the like, he's already passed the point of no return.

Iracundus
14-12-2010, 11:17
I would have thought that by the time they're recognised as a Farseer, and get given the ritual pointy helmet and the like, he's already passed the point of no return.

I was referring to this:



The nature of this is that the trapped Eldar cannot see that they are trapped, because they are locked in a cycle of the same emotion without any context or self-awareness.

I could see this when they first become trapped, before they get given the ritual title or physical trappings of their new role, but surely once they get these things they are aware they are trapped. They may not care but caring and being aware are two different things.

Hendarion
14-12-2010, 12:09
Well, this can go hand in hand though.
Imagine the Farseer to see it more like: "No, I could stop if I'd wish to, but atm I don't want to, still I can serve in the same purpose as the other Farseers". Possible, no? At least this *could* explain why he doesn't sees himself that way while others do. A bit like an addicted fellow, full of denial. ;)
Of course one could think of more explanations.

Kage2020
14-12-2010, 13:28
Perhaps the Bonesinger angle is a bit misleading, and maybe we need something else - an eldar who creates art with no practical application whatsoever, so caught up in expressing every passing moment and whim that they lose sense of everything else.
Indeed. In some ways one imagines that being caught upon the Way of the Artisan all but perfectly represents the horrors of becoming a "paramount practitioner"--caught in a perpetual moment that is never truly yours, and where you dance to a tune of creation that becomes the sum total of your life. The line between madness and genius? Gone.

Art as life... and destruction.


Philosophers perhaps
Thank you for that image of black-capped Eldar in a Parisian cafe, sipping espresso while debating logical positivism versus phenomenology. ;)


And I agree with Kage2020 on the childhood thing.
Wait. I just want to bask in the glory of these words, so rarely heard in a 40k hobbyist forum... while simultaneously steeling myself for the soon-to-come sucker punch. :shifty:

(j/k)


In my view of the eldar, childhood on a craftworld is spent learning how not to do lots of things - shut off that psychic beacon, not give in to every want and desire. In many ways it is a more extreme form of maturing that humans go through, from instant gratification of the infant, through the selfishness and indestructability of youth, to the more considered (in some...) understanding of emotion in adulthood.
I like that, but feel that it is more than that. Then again one of the less popular aspects of "Kage Eldar" is the destruction of the nuclear family and the move towards communal raising of Eldar children. While it works off the anthropological observations of the reaction to children in societies that for whatever reason have an under-representation of the same--and with a dose of Plato thrown in for good measure vis-a-vis service to society over family--it still rubs many the wrong way when presented with the oft-commented upon "Celtic Samurai" and the importance of kin-clan, family, etc.

Suffice to say, however, that I would imagine that Eldar childhood--indeed, life--is more than just service to the mercurial master of their emotions. Rather, it recognises that master and responds on a number of different levels that includes both emotions and "cultural reality," and expresses such in the context of their longevity. It armours them rather than just preparing them, which is one of the reasons that I always end up with problems when it comes down to the Outcasts and their position (or no-position) within Craftworld Eldar society.


Iracundus - I think a craftworld fleet is made up of autonomous ships so that they will probably have a system of agreement that they take it in turns to perform different duties and then get 'free time' to go off on trade missions, explorations, forays to the Crone Worlds and so on.
This, for me, is central to observations and interpretations of Eldar society and, also, the nature of Outcasts. Despite being self-ostracised from the larger body of Craftworld Eldar society there is still a sense of obligation to the craftworld and, more broadly, the Eldar as a species/race. This I feel contextualises the Eldar Path with regards to Outcasts.

And, of course, the "Eldar Fleet" is going to be populated by not only Outcasts, but also "Explorers" and other such individuals.


I also agree on the Farseer thing - they become detached from the phsyical, temporal world and lose themselves utterly on the skein of fate, the crystalisation of their bodies being symptomatic of this.
One of the things that I really like about the concept of the crystallisation of Farseers is that it is a metaphor for their existence: as their minds and abilities are unbound by the myriad possibilities of time--the essence of potential--so do their bodies become bound by stasis and limited possibility. They are in their own way as much of a sacrifice to the Eldar as the Young King, just a more protracted one.

That and it integrates wraithbone into the physiology of the Eldar, which is something that the fans have been doing for a while (to varying degrees). :D


I certainly tried to get this across with some of the Eldrad background and his growin obsession with the eternal matrix and the creation of Ynnead. They become esoteric, unable to relate to the present, until finally they are lost altogether in the fabric of the infinity circuit.
And through the Infinity Circuit to the Eternal Matrix and, from there, Cybertron. Errr... Okay, maybe not Cybertron. Oh god, now I've got Stan Bush's "The Touch" going through my head. ;)

Regardless, this is one of those things that I feel is often forgotten about Farseers and the concept of "leadership," and one of the reasons that I use the Exarch/Menshad Korum concept as a way of differentiating between different "classes" of paramount practitioner. Thus while being Shrine-Sworn gives one an intimate experience of a given Way, but being "Way free" gives one the distance to move beyond the moment into a more abstract relationship with the concept of that particular aspect of the Path. Thus Farseers such as Eldrad and "Autarchs," though the latter are no longer required to walk the "Path of Command." (This is another one of those points where Eldar Path =/= Eldar Society.)


There are seers who are not warlocks and not Farseers, so the distinction has to be about something.
Indeed.


Good stuff, all very interesting (though not getting Pathof the Seer finished for this Friday ).
Stop ya whinin' and take solace in the words of Douglas Adams:


I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.


Psychic choirs is how I have always imagined the larger items get crafted, rather than just one lone Bonesinger doing it.
Well, WD127 indicates that all Eldar can engage in such activities through their innate psychometry, so it is no surprise that this might be scaled up for Bonesinging. Beyond that, though:


I imagine one just starting out on the Path might just be told to sing a simple note, but with all their endurance and lending their innate psychic strength (if not their skill) to the group project. The crafting of a major item therefore can be seen as the physical manifestation of a symphony given form and motion.
I like it!

With that said, though, I'm still firmly (as much as any interpretation is firm when it comes to the 40k universe!) of the belief that Bonesinging is just one way in which the Eldar produce materials. I do so dislike the equation of "Bonesingers = Tech-Priests."


I guess this is where I have trouble reconciling with your earlier statement regarding non-self awareness of their repeating emotional cycle. Surely a Farseer is conscious they are called Farseer by others and is given the ritual gear of a Farseer. Surely they must be aware of the implications of being called Farseer (i.e. you're trapped and going nowhere).
Agreed, hence the earlier comment about acceptance of ones position as represented by, for example, the Exarch taking up their armour.


I could see this when they first become trapped, but before they get given the ritual title or physical trappings of their new role, but surely once they get these things they are aware they are trapped. They may not care but caring and being aware are two different things.
While I was not overtly impressed with Rennie's interpretation in Shadow Point, the one part that I think he really "nailed" the Eldar Path was with the transition from Aspect Warrior to Exarch, which is in some way what I think we're all talking about?

Kage

Hendarion
14-12-2010, 13:39
Kage, you should consider writing books... seriously :p

Poseidal
15-12-2010, 08:45
Just backtracking a little (I've been catching up on this thread which I only noticed existed just now):

The Chaos Champion analogy is one I suspected for Exarchs, possibly reinforced by the supernatural type powers given? (at least in the original description)

With the comments on Asurmen, he is the first who embraced and controlled his violent nature but his name and title associate with Asuryan; is there any clarification of this? was it to do with his position before Phoenix Lord/Exarch or a symbolic appearance?

Idaan
15-12-2010, 11:03
The way I always interpreted it, the Dire Avenger aspect of Khaine represents him not as a mindless murderer he was during the War in Heaven, but as a noble defender of his people. He is a loyal vassal to his brother and the ruler of all gods, Asuryan. When Asuryan made a judgement, it was Khaine the Justicar who carried it out. When the Heavens were besieged by the silver-skinned Yngir giants, it was Khaine the Defender who stood at the head of the heavenly host, holding the Phoenix King's standard. When evil happened, Asuryan sent Khaine the Avenger to make it right. Khaine was Asuryan's bannerman, the instrument of his will. His right hand. So Asurmen, the Hand of Asuryan would actually be Khaine's title. And the first Phoenix Lord simply chose to concentrate on that Aspect, becoming the Hand of Asuryan in Khaine's absence - defending the Eldar race just as Khaine once defended the Heavens.

Poseidal
15-12-2010, 11:23
Ah, that interpretation makes a lot of sense in that light and probably makes the most sense as the originator as well, as that role would be the primary need at that time.

Kage2020
15-12-2010, 15:32
Kage, you should consider writing books... seriously
Is that just a way of saying that I'm long-winded!?


The Chaos Champion analogy is one I suspected for Exarchs, possibly reinforced by the supernatural type powers given? (at least in the original description)
I think that there are a number of ways that this might be represented, though I admit that I may be over-influenced by some formative RP mechanics that represent the transition to an "Exarch." One could certainly argue that is the investment of the "spirit of Khaine," though one might question the source (Khaine or the Craftworld Eldar, if that's even a relevant distinction). On the other hand, one could equally represent it as with the distillation of the essence of the individual into a single thing, past experiences slough off and their innate psychic potential manifests itself through the Exarch powers. (That last is how I represent it in RP, hence the bias.)


The way I always interpreted it, the Dire Avenger aspect of Khaine represents him not as a mindless murderer he was during the War in Heaven, but as a noble defender of his people.
A like that interpretation of myth. Of course, the fun bit is also to determine where it intersects with "reality." :D

Kage

Hendarion
15-12-2010, 16:31
Is that just a way of saying that I'm long-winded!?
I won't call it long-winded, but rather detailed and extensive.

Kage2020
15-12-2010, 17:08
Ah, that makes up for the verbose wall of text that says little that normally comes from GW. :D

Edit: And, well, those were thread killers. :shifty:

Kage