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xmbk
16-03-2006, 13:58
This came up in a game last night, and I wanted to confirm the rule. An all Giant Slayer unit in snaking formation (frontage: 1) was charged. As every model is a champion, not in base, extra wounds cannot carry over. Effectively, only one model can be killed by a charge, no matter what. Agreed?

SuperBeast
16-03-2006, 14:38
Nope.
The Giant Slayers lose models.
Wounds carry over once there are no "Normal" models in the unit.
As the unit consists entirely of giant slayers, each wound will kill a giant slayer, as they are the only models left in the unit.
I had the same thing with my Slayer Army.
I'll be back later with page references.

In the same way that when you have a front rank that consists entirely of giant slayers in a mixed unit, the giant slayers die first because they are the only models in combat.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
16-03-2006, 15:12
Disagreed.

The wounds only fail to carry over if your opponent declares his attacks, which is essentially the downside of Champ sniping.

As the only model available to be struck is the Giant Slayer, he *must* be removed as a casualty, then anyone else in the unit. His character status does not come into it.

xmbk
16-03-2006, 16:52
Thanks for the help - please send those page references if you find them.

This implies that attacks can carry over onto heroes attached to units that are wiped out - is this true?

Festus
16-03-2006, 16:53
Hi

Wounds do carry over in this case:

First: All attacks are declared against a champion, so no problem there, really. But this is not the point.

The point is: Wounds on a champion do not carry over onto the unit, Wounds on the unit may well carry over onto the Champion.

Remember that the champ is -after all- just a R'n'F model of the unit, with the exceptions all specifically noted in the BRB.

So if you have to satisfy combat losses, you will have to remove the champion if there is no other Model left (you can indeed always choose to remove the champion in favour of another member of the unit - but why would you?).

Greetings
Festus

edit: If you were in a challenge, though, you'd be right, as nothing can flow into / out of a challenge.

Festus
16-03-2006, 16:55
Hi

This implies that attacks can carry over onto heroes attached to units that are wiped out - is this true?

Untrue:
A hero is a character and NOT a R'n'F model. He may not satisfy combat losses to the unit. A hero/character will never suffer *Overflow* damage in this way.

Greetings
Festus

xmbk
16-03-2006, 16:59
Disagreed.

The wounds only fail to carry over if your opponent declares his attacks, which is essentially the downside of Champ sniping.



The BRB specifically states that if a champion is targeted, extra wounds carry over onto the unit. It also states that a champion must be targeted in order to take wounds. I'd definitely be interested in 'Beasts page references for this ruling.

Flame
16-03-2006, 17:09
It was amended in the very first annual.

DeathlessDraich
16-03-2006, 18:20
The BRB specifically states that if a champion is targeted, extra wounds carry over onto the unit.
Didnt know this! :o
On what page is it?

While we're on the subject of an all champion unit like giant slayers or Grail knights, if the front rank of an all-giant slayer unit is destroyed in combat, would the slayer unit still strike back with as many models as it had in the front rank (assuming of course there are enough remaining models remaining).

Starbane
16-03-2006, 21:43
why does anyone use such a unit-formation?
would like to here what was the purpose of that one though

xmbk
16-03-2006, 23:09
Didnt know this! :o
On what page is it?



p109, Champions. It's been changed in errata (thanks for pointing this out). Instead of explicitly stating that wounds on champions carry over to the unit, it now says to treat them exactly as RnF members. While this makes clear that wounds can carry over to a champion when the rest of the unit is gone, it also implies that wounds carry over from a champion onto the unit. This contradicts what a couple of the veterans posted. Can anyone give a page/book reference that denies carry over from a champion onto the unit? Thanks for all the help on this.

Flame
17-03-2006, 00:15
As I said, in the first annual the published!

They re-did the champion entry box, which took out the sentence telling you that wounds allocated to them transfered through into the unit.

Redowl
17-03-2006, 01:17
I'm not a rules expert by a long shot but I do have Chronicles 2003 in front of me. See page 136. I don't know how much I can quote without getting in trouble so I'll keep it brief. It says "They are effectively another model in the unit." From what the entry says it sounds like they are to be treated like any other model in the unit. They just have slightly better stats.

Flame
17-03-2006, 10:04
That is true. However, the ONLY way to kill a champion (bar wiping out the unit first of course) is to nominate attacks at him. In that case, wounds do not carry over, because you allocated attacks to him in the first place.

Festus
17-03-2006, 10:54
Hi

That is true. However, the ONLY way to kill a champion (bar wiping out the unit first of course) is to nominate attacks at him. In that case, wounds do not carry over, because you allocated attacks to him in the first place.

This is correct with a normal unit. With units consisting entirely of champions (GK, GSlayer), each successful wound not caused in a challenge will of course remove a Champion, as there are no other R'n'F models left to satisfy losses.


While we're on the subject of an all champion unit like giant slayers or Grail knights, if the front rank of an all-giant slayer unit is destroyed in combat, would the slayer unit still strike back with as many models as it had in the front rank (assuming of course there are enough remaining models remaining).
Why should they be able to? The front rank is wiped out, there is noone to hit back. Just as usual.

Greetings
Festus

Wedge
17-03-2006, 12:06
Over on the brewery there was soem debate about whethjer or not a unit of all GS could actually have ranks or not as the BRB says that champions must be in the front rank. It makes more sense to allow GS to have more than the first rank but there are no rules (AFAIK) that get rid of their obligation to go in the front rank.

What do people here think?

Also, can the standard and musician become GS? Can they be upgraded or if not do they get removed when they get killed or does a GS take over their jobs and be both a champion and a standard or musician?

xmbk
17-03-2006, 14:20
That is true. However, the ONLY way to kill a champion (bar wiping out the unit first of course) is to nominate attacks at him. In that case, wounds do not carry over, because you allocated attacks to him in the first place.

This is the part that still bothers me. If he is to be treated as normal RnF, this implies that even if you allocate attacks, extra wounds carry over onto the unit. Removing that specific line in the errata doesn't change the net effect, because it says to "treat him as normal", which means that wounds carry over.

I can only assume that there is something in the section on allocating attacks that precludes wounds from carrying over. I'll check the BRB when I get home to see the wording.

Thanks for all the help on this. My experience has been that so-called "common interpretations" can change from region to region, so I'm trying to get the consensus opinion as well as rulebook support. A pint of Bugman's Best to all, put it on my tab ;)

Mad Makz
17-03-2006, 15:10
If you allocate attacks against anything wounds NEVER carry over. that's the very reason for allocating attacks (the attacks can only hit the model they are allocated to, and not the nebulous 'enemy' etc). A model could choose to allocate all it's attacks versus only one regular rnf troop and if it did so it would only kill that one. Can't see much point in doing this, unless potentially killing more than one enemy model would have some sort of negative effect.

So by simply removing the mention of attacks carrying over they are precluding it.

speedygogo
17-03-2006, 16:28
How can one field a unit comprizing entirly of champions. I thought that a giant slayer was an upgrade for a unit champion and were characters in the past. If they are being counted as characters you can only have 4 in a 2000 pt game. Sounds like you were playing a broken list my friend.

Festus
17-03-2006, 17:43
Hi

How can one field a unit comprizing entirly of champions. I thought that a giant slayer was an upgrade for a unit champion and were characters in the past. If they are being counted as characters you can only have 4 in a 2000 pt game. Sounds like you were playing a broken list my friend.
You don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about, now, do you?:cries:

Let me help you:

There are two units in the game which can be comprised entirely of champions: Bret Grail Knights (who are always ALL champions); and Dwarven Slayers, who can upgrade any number to Giant Slayers (their brand of champion) - and this includes upgrading ALL of them.

The Slayer Characters are

Dragon Slayer and

Daemon Slayer respectively.

I hope that cleared things up a bit...:angel:

To the formation: Any unit may reform in as many ranks and /or files it is physically able to. Just because you have a 3 strong command group does not mean that you have to be at least 3 wide.
The standard goes in the front rank - in the middle. This is the only *fixed* position, and there always is a frontrank and a middle, even if the formation is just one model wide.

The other command models have to go into the front rank next to the standard if there is any space for them, after them, it is the characters, after them, it is the *normal* R'n'F.

Greetings
Festus

DeathlessDraich
17-03-2006, 18:33
Why should they be able to? The front rank is wiped out, there is noone to hit back. Just as usual.


Sorry Festus, my initial query wasn't very clear. I'm still not certain about your answer. In 'normal' units, unless there are less than 3 models left, a champion would be able to strike back even if enough wounds are inflicted to destroy the first rank -of course it is not actually destroyed since models are removed from the back and the first rank still remains. The champion is never wounded unless specifically targeted and can fight back.
Therefore in an all GS unit (lets say 5 wide) which suffers 5 wounds surely at least 1 champion can strike back or is this not so?
:) In fact why can't the other champions also strike back - although this doesn't seem right to me.

xmbk
17-03-2006, 18:57
Ok - 5 GS in the front rank, 5 regular slayers behind. 5 wounds are caused, no allocated attacks. Do the 5 troll slayers come off, allowing attack backs from all 5 GS? I guess that's not too far of a stretch, given the nature of slayers :)

Festus
18-03-2006, 10:20
Hi

You can only target with any attacks what you are in BtB with.

In a normal unit (with just one champion), you can allocate all attacks on normal R'n'F and thus the Champion will survive, and he will be able to attack back.

With only GS in the front rank, each Attack has to be allocated to a GS, so the GS die first, then the regular Slayers, if any.

There is no *magically switching of places* within the combat. If the GS are up front, it's them who take the beating.

Greetings
Festus

DeathlessDraich
18-03-2006, 10:48
Crystal clear and absolutely spot on.
Thanks

xmbk
18-03-2006, 14:02
Hi

You can only target with any attacks what you are in BtB with.

In a normal unit (with just one champion), you can allocate all attacks on normal R'n'F and thus the Champion will survive, and he will be able to attack back.

With only GS in the front rank, each Attack has to be allocated to a GS, so the GS die first, then the regular Slayers, if any.

There is no *magically switching of places* within the combat. If the GS are up front, it's them who take the beating.

Greetings
Festus

Thanks! This makes sense, but it contradicts situations I've seen in everyday play. For instance, if a 4-man frontage is attacked by 6 skirmishers, the 2 end skirmishers are only in base with the corner models. If one of those corner models is a hero, are you saying one of the skirmishers must attack the hero instead of the unit?

-SSSSSS-
--HXXX--

Again, not trying to be difficult or violate the "Easter Egg" rule :) Just trying to wrap my brain around all this asap - I don't like to make rules mistakes when I'm playing. It seems you're saying the priority is:

1) Each attacking model must choose to attack something in BtB.
2) Wound at least one model in BtB.
3) Carry over to rear ranks, if the remaining front rank models are not RnF.

There's still a problem here with the multi-champion unit. If only one champion and one RnF are in BtB, then non-allocated wounds carry over to the rear ranks. But if 2 champions are in BtB, are you suggesting that both have to be removed before carrying over to the rear ranks? This is definitely counter-intuitive, as having a second champion ends up costing the first champion his life! While I can easily see one slayer dragging another down with him, I can't believe this is the intent of the rules :)

xmbk
18-03-2006, 17:35
In the same way that when you have a front rank that consists entirely of giant slayers in a mixed unit, the giant slayers die first because they are the only models in combat.

By this (admittedly sound) logic, if enough wounds are caused to wipe out the front rank, the champion must be removed, even if more RnF stand behind him. I can't find anything in the rules to contradict this. As a matter of fact, I can't find anything to contradict the claim that even heroes must take wounds if there are no remaining models in the front rank. The rules state that casualties are effectively removed from the front rank first, and characters who join a unit become part of that unit. If anyone can quote a rule on this I'd be greatly appreciative.

xmbk
18-03-2006, 17:38
Hi

Untrue:
A hero is a character and NOT a R'n'F model. He may not satisfy combat losses to the unit. A hero/character will never suffer *Overflow* damage in this way.

Greetings
Festus

I have no doubt you're correct, but can't find a rule to support this. The rules state that models in BtB are removed first, hence the limitation on return attacks. The rules on characters state that they become part of the unit they join. Therefore, characters and champions in BtB should be removed before any rear rank models. If you can toss me a rule-bone, I'd be obliged.

Festus
18-03-2006, 21:16
For instance, if a 4-man frontage is attacked by 6 skirmishers, the 2 end skirmishers are only in base with the corner models. If one of those corner models is a hero, are you saying one of the skirmishers must attack the hero instead of the unit?

-SSSSSS-
--HXXX--


Yes, that is exactly what I and the rules say: You may only attack the models you are in base contact with in h-t-h. If this one skirmisher is only in contact with the Hero, tough luck: He *must* attack the hero.


There's still a problem here with the multi-champion unit. If only one champion and one RnF are in BtB, then non-allocated wounds carry over to the rear ranks. But if 2 champions are in BtB, are you suggesting that both have to be removed before carrying over to the rear ranks? This is definitely counter-intuitive, as having a second champion ends up costing the first champion his life! While I can easily see one slayer dragging another down with him, I can't believe this is the intent of the rules
Honestly, I don't understand the question...:confused:

...*are in BtB* with what or whom?

Okay: If you are in contact with two models (and not a third, to keep matters simple) and one is a champ while the other is a R'n'F, you may choose to hit the R'n'F (as he is in BtB, thus an eligible target, simple). Any W caused will kill other R'n'F present in the unit, taking first those in BtB with an enemy, then the rest. If there are no other R'n'F left, you have to kill off the champion to satisfy W caused on the R'n'F.

If you are in contact with two champions, you will automatically have to allocate your attacks against those two champions. You do this individually, like

"One attack on the GS on the right, and two attacks on the GS on the left." or something like it. So you can potentially kill both champions.

Greetings
Festus

xmbk
18-03-2006, 21:58
Okay: If you are in contact with two models (and not a third, to keep matters simple) and one is a champ while the other is a R'n'F, you may choose to hit the R'n'F (as he is in BtB, thus an eligible target, simple). Any W caused will kill other R'n'F present in the unit, taking first those in BtB with an enemy, then the rest. If there are no other R'n'F left [in BtB], you have to kill off the champion to satisfy W caused on the R'n'F.

If you are in contact with two champions, you will automatically have to allocate your attacks against those two champions. You do this individually, like

"One attack on the GS on the right, and two attacks on the GS on the left." or something like it. So you can potentially kill both champions.

Greetings
Festus

Thanks again. I added a bracket above - is this what you intended?

Why do you have to allocate if only in contact with 2 champions? Remember, the original question was "what happens with an all champion front rank?". The answers given were that the unit could still be attacked, and wounds would carry over to champions because they were the only viable targets. Though the opinions of veteran players is useful for pointing me in the right direction, I'm still hoping to get some documentation references for my gaming opponents.

Festus
19-03-2006, 08:37
Hi

This is very confused now, it seems.

No, the bracket is not what was intended, just the opposite:

I'll try again:

XXXXX
XYUVX
ACBDH
AAAAA

Imagine those two units are facing one another. That is the basic situation, where H is a Hero, B,C,D, are a command group (C is a champ), as well as Y,U,V,(Y a champ) on the opposing side. A and X are troopers.

Fairly normal.

If they attack each other and do neither speciafically allocate Attacks on H, C, or Y, then only regular R'n'F will die.

If C and Y challenge, then their W caused can not overflow into the unit (although they may be counted as Overkillbonus in CR). If any Attacks are allocated on C, Y, or H, outside of a challenge, then any excess Wound may still not overflow, as they were targeted directly.

after a round of fighting, we have this:

XYUV
ACBDh
AA

Where *h* is our hero, having lost a W already.

Now, if side A's models still all hit normal troopers (which they can, as they are all in BtB with anyone else but the champ), it can happen , that they will cause 4 or more W. In this case, the champion will die as well, as he must be used to satisfy losses to R'n'F models, even if he is not attacked directly.

In the unlikely case of X's side wounding 7+ times, the Hero will still live on though (if there was no wounding hit directed at him specifically), as the W on the unit cannot overflow onto him. Even if the whole unit around him collapses, he will still survive, in heroic fashion...

Now let's substitute Champions for X's front rank:

XXXXX
YYYYY
ACBDH
AAAAA

Assume no special allocations take place. Any and all wounding hits of unit A (including the hero's and the champion's) will kill a champion (Y) first. If there are none left, further W will kill regular troopers from rank 2 (if the second rank still consists of champions, this makes no difference). Should one of the champions (Y) challenge, this particular model may not suffer damage from anyone els but his partner within the challenge. This is a fight set aside.

I hope that this was clear enough... :)

Greetings
Festus

DeathlessDraich
19-03-2006, 09:04
Hi XMBK

I suggest you study the diagrams on pg 68 of the rule book and pg 109 on champions and you'll see that Festus is right.

xmbk
19-03-2006, 15:17
Thanks for that precise reply, Festus. I think I understand, it was just this line in your previous reply that confused me:

>>>If you are in contact with two champions, you will automatically have to allocate your attacks against those two champions. You do this individually, like

"One attack on the GS on the right, and two attacks on the GS on the left." or something like it. So you can potentially kill both champions.<<<

It's just that I can't find any supporting documentation. Thank you for the page numbers, Deathless, but what's written on p109 about Champions gives no reason for not removing them when all the BtB models suffer a wound. In fact, since you treat them as normal unit members, you *must* remove them before rear ranks, according to that page (and the errata for it).

I've been trying to find where it says that characters shouldn't be removed before non-BtB, in hopes that it would apply to champions as well. But the closest I can come is p68, which says that you can divide attacks between heroes and normal RnF. But p95 states that a character becomes part of a unit once he joins it, and p70 states that models in the front rank of a unit must be removed first. This is far from non-ambiguous. I'm a mathematician, not a lawyer, and I like precise language. I know GW can't cover every situation, but this is a pretty important one - I can't believe there isn't any clarifying language somewhere :(

xmbk
20-03-2006, 00:37
Got what I needed, from the 2004 Annual and online Q&A. Champions do not take wounds until the rest of the RnF in the unit are destroyed, unless targeted. GA and enjoy that pint on my tab now.

daruman
20-03-2006, 00:47
giant slayers whoo hoo