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themothersuperior
11-12-2010, 23:45
My regular opponent has labelled my current 2250pt DE force as "filth"......just want to hear warseer's opinion on the matter.

Lord
Supreme sorceress
xtra lvl (dark)
Black talisman
Focus familiar
Total:355

Heroes

Death hag
Cauldron of blood
Bsb
Seal of grond

Sorceress
xtra lvl (metal)
Scroll
Guilding eye
Total:440

Core
Warriors (39)
Full command
Shields

10 Xbows
Full command

10 Xbows
Full command
Flaming banner

Harpies X5
Harpies X5
Harpies X5
Total:708

Special
6 shades
6 shades
6 shades
Add hw's
Champs
Light armour

Cold ones 10
Full command
Armour piercing banner
Champion has
Opal amulut
Dragonhelm
Total: 738

Rare: -

Criticism warmly welcomed and expected ; )

thesheriff
12-12-2010, 09:31
Your missing 2 hydras.

Also, those Cold one knights are HOW MANY POINTS. How many Xbows could get for that. Or black guard?

thesheriff

Ravenar
12-12-2010, 14:04
I may need to go reread the Dark Elf book but I am pretty sure Death Hags are limited to Gifts of Khaine only. In other word, you cannot take a seal with her.

stijnq
12-12-2010, 15:02
@thesherrif
those 738 points are for special, so shades+ cold ones (at least I think so)
There's no way 10 cold ones would be that much, maybe if they were 65 points/model=)

Seems like a strong list, but nothing I wouldn't play (at least once :-))

Steam_Giant
12-12-2010, 15:07
Your 39 warriors would benefit from some buffs/ hexes. So would the harpies, Rxbmen and shades.

Consider taking shadow or metal on your Lvl4 and dark on the lvl2

Are Blood shades worth taking ? (shade champs)

Kirbinator
12-12-2010, 17:49
I'm assuming he's calling it 'filth' because you're inadvertently cheating him in a couple of areas? Death Hags cannot buy the Seal of Ghrond, Crossbowmen cannot take magic banners, and you need 35 more points or Core in your army to be legal because Harpies do not contribute to your minimum requirement. I assume he's not calling it filth because of it's power; I wouldn't call the list optimized at all or nearly as strong as Dark Elves can be.

Supreme Sorceress - Black Amulet is very expensive for what it does. For half the points you could be using the Pendant of Khaeleth to get a better ward save against the vast majority of situations. Outside of very specific things like two Lore of Death spells and things like Toughness Test wounds caused by Skaven nasties, the Pendant is universally better against anything S3 or higher.

Further, you have her stuck in your big block of Warriors that I'm assuming you're going to use as your central fighty anvil unit. So your hugely expensive, frail, wizard general is in the front lines of combat where line of sight and casting ability can be blocked. Sounds unfortunate. I prefer my level 4's on a Pegasus, but at least a unit of Crossbows would be a happier place for her.

Sorceress - Dispel Scrolls aren't bad, but I often take the Seal of Ghrond instead. I find the additional die on every turn is better than removing a single spell once during the game. On my lv.2 I also usually pick up the Tome of Furion. Another spell selection for 15 points is a nice trade. That Guiding Eye is a nice item, but is wasted on a 10-man squad of Crossbows. If you had a bigger unit, like 20, I could see it as useful but since the Lore of Metal comes with a +1 to-hit spell, I'm not sure I'd deviate from my usual Seal + Tome combination.

Death Hag - I love BSB Cauldrons. As previously noted, she can only take Gifts of Khaine so she cannot purchase the Seal of Ghrond. Don't buy any Gifts for her though, just leave it at BSB Cauldron.

Spearmen - I use a block of 25 in my armies. I would prefer a block of 30, but I always manage to find a better use of 35 points. I wouldn't ever really go higher than 30 since I feel 5x6 is plenty big for a unit I just want to hang around long enough for support to get there, or just big enough to keep something pinned for a turn or two.

Crossbows - These guys are our go-to Core choice. A pack of 20 with Standard and Music and Shields runs you 235 and can shell out a nice amount of pincushion firepower. If points are tight you can drop the Standards to bring them to 225. They actually hold up in combat better than Spearmen thanks to that 6+ parry ward save. Sometimes it won't make much of a difference, other times it makes a big difference. I would drop the Champions as they do not do anything more than +1BS on two of your many shots. Not worth the price of half a Crossbowman.

Crossbowmen also have fantastic synergy with our magic. Shadow magic's Withering debuffs an opponent's Toughness, making those S3 crossbow bolts very deadly when they can wound on 2s or 3s. The Signature spell knocks down their movement, meaning you can shoot them for longer. Lore of Fire's #2 spell makes those crossbows flaming and get an additional +1 to wound. Yes, this does mean that you wound T5+ on a 5+ rather than a 6+. Imagine taking down a Hellpit Abomination in one volley! Lastly, the Lore of Metal has the +1 to-hit for ranged weaponry to make you more accurate.

The one thing Crossbowmen CANNOT do is take magic banners. This means that Banner of Eternal Flame has to either be held by a BSB Noble or be taken out of the unit. I would remove it.

Harpies - Do you really need three sets of Harpies? I use one set for screening, general harassment, and a bit of War Machine hunting. Now that 8th edition has nerfed March Blocking and you cannot wipe out fleeing units with them, I find a single unit of 5 does me just fine. At most I would take two units of five, but then only one unit of Shades. Again, these do not count towards your minimum Core requirement.

Shades - Do you really need three sets of Shades? Those units are 378 points... pretty steep. I often bring two sets of 6 and find that I probably would've been fine with just one. The only upgrade I would ever give them is Extra Hand Weapons, and even then only if I had extra points sitting around. The Champ does very little more than the standard guy and a 6+ armor save does not really exist in the majority of situations.

Knights - I have heard of people liking big blocks of Knights like this, but I don't. They will rarely be near your BSB and watching 360 points go stupid for a turn isn't particularly fun. Have you given Chariots a try? Two Chariots come in at 200 points, are much more maneuverable than Knights thanks to Chariot rules and the smaller footprint, and put out nearly as much damage as 10 naked Knights.

I think you have a good number of things you could be putting your points into instead of what you have here that would greatly increase the potential of your army. Fix those few illegal things about your list and maybe your friend won't call it filth? Alternatively, fix those illegal bits and really turn up the heat on your list, then show him what we can really do. :D

themothersuperior
12-12-2010, 21:53
ooops my bad.... I'm actually missing quite a few pages from the dark elf army book so i assumed a few things reagrding one core unit taking a banner and harpies not counting for core......

i chose dark magic because its much easier to cast, contains anti horde spells and in combination with the black amulet means the sorceress can gain wounds via soul stealer and become quite a powerful combat character, los can be achieved via the focus familiar. i believe she statistically can "go toe to toe with a bloodthirster".

As regards the shades, they are absolutely my favourite DE unit....i have given them all the upgrades despite not being the optimum investment.

I use 3 units of harpies for redirection...with 8th however you must be willing to lose the unit so hence the 3....as you can see my main combat approach consists of a spear anvil and cold one countercharge so alot of redirection is required for me to be a ble to deal with units one at a time.

Kirbinator
13-12-2010, 01:02
I'm not really sure how you are using Harpies as redirection tools. If it was something that reliably worked, sure, but your opponent needs only pass a leadership test after running them over in order to reform and point whatever direction they want.

Our best magic for a Lv.4 is most often Shadow magic, and it's not even the big, expensive spells that we're after. While Mindrazor is arguably brokenly amazing, The Withering and the Signature spell are phenomenal for a variety of uses. That big scary block of Chaos Warriors aren't so scary when they're M1 or T2. In fact, you can use The Withering to fend off charges you don't want to happen. Nobody is going to charge a unit of Crossbowmen when they've been reduced to T1 or T2.

I do not understand how you would consider a Sorceress taking on a Bloodthirster. The Black Amulet is only a 50% chance of a save. The Thirster will definitely wound many times more than even a fully-boosted 6-wound Sorceress. The Pendant would at least give you a 5- save; you have a much better chance surviving a run-in with combat characters with it than any other ward save. Ideally, though, you would avoid such a situation. Our T3, S3, 2-attack Supreme Sorceress is not made for combat.

You can like Shades as much as you wish, but upgrades just make the unit more expensive. It does not affect the look or number of the minis on your table.

What does your main opponent run? Why does he seem to have so many issues dealing with two block units and some skirmishers?

RMacDeezy
13-12-2010, 01:39
personally, i think your opponent should be throwing his list up here if this is giving him trouble ;)