PDA

View Full Version : who should be the best deep strikers



meanmachine
13-12-2010, 19:14
I have collected daemon for a long time and thought they were the best deep strikers in the game, The army felt like they live to do it

The blood angels new DECENT OF THE ANGELS rule has made them far better at deep striking than daemons.


should daemons be the best at it since they come through warps whenever arriving.

Atm daemons are no where near the top of the list for a competitive or scary army to fight against.
If you want to beat them its simple, just add more scenery so when big things like soulgrinders arrive they will scatter into impassible objective and suffer perils.

Would daemons be too strong if they only scattered 1d6 like blood angels or even if they didn't scatter at all.
you would still get a round of shooting at them or running away from them before they get to charge you.

or some people say it would fit their backround better if they if they were to set up like ymargl genestealers do, this represents the daemon is materialising into the battle

i just think they should be better than blood angels when it comes to deep striking because that's their only way of entering the game, so they should be good at it.

what do you think about this

ArtificerArmour
13-12-2010, 19:18
It would be nice, but technically it's the tau. If in visual range of their tank they dont scatter at all ;)

Vaktathi
13-12-2010, 19:21
Honestly the Descent of Angels rule was sorta silly in a fan-fic sort of way, it's not something the army pays for anywhere and is not something that was critically needed. That said, it doesn't make them the best DS'ing army in the game, especially as most competitive BA lists are mech'd up and make little or no use of the rule.

Daemons have multiple issues, DS scatter is not chief among them. Rather its the cumulative effect of many horribly random things (e.g. what comes in and when) which result in a loss of control for the Daemon army.

Charistoph
13-12-2010, 20:18
It would be nice, but technically it's the tau. If in visual range of their tank they dont scatter at all ;)

That just gives a reroll. Scout Bikes, Chaos Icons (both Marine and gribly), and a couple 'Nids allow for Deep Strike without scatter.

Drop Pods only scatter bad when it's off the table.

Don't forget Chaos Daemons came in at the tale end of the "Less is More" design paradigm, if they were made today, they would be overpowered.

Stonerhino
13-12-2010, 20:58
Necrons
Eldar
Dark Eldar

In that order.

But in the TTG you need balance so things do not always happen as they should.

adeptusphotographicus
13-12-2010, 21:18
I quite like Elysian Drop Troops.
they scatter as much as any other, but given that the entire army , every unit can deep strike the blanket effect is most gratifying.

I vote Elysian Drop Troop Imperial Guard

Cheexsta
13-12-2010, 21:26
The blood angels new DECENT OF THE ANGELS rule has made them far better at deep striking than daemons.
One would hope that all Angels are decent ;)

daemonicemission
13-12-2010, 21:57
Honestly the Descent of Angels rule was sorta silly in a fan-fic sort of way, it's not something the army pays for anywhere and is not something that was critically needed.

Descent is definately nice for dropping in jump pack meltas and Vanguards using heroic intervention.

Best deep strikers IMO though are drop pods. Scatter is not so much of a problem if you don't have to worry about mishaps.

Branderic
14-12-2010, 04:11
Tyranids are good at deep striking.

Swarmlord, Hive Tyrants give +1 to reserve rolls (Lictor's too if they are on the table).

Trygon holes and Lictors act as homing beacons (unfortunately the mechanic is broken).

Mycetic Spores can't scatter into terrain (like Drop Pods)

UberBeast
14-12-2010, 04:54
Necrons, Dark Eldar, Tau, Eldar, Orks (because they actually rain out of the sky!)

DJ3
14-12-2010, 05:02
Daemons aren't even in the conversation. We get Chaos Icons, which don't benefit at least half of our army--and are insultingly overpriced compared to what every other Codex pays for Teleport Homers/Icons/Beacons/etc.

We're forced to Deep Strike, they just didn't give us the tools to do it effectively. Everyone else gets Training Wheels Deep Strike.

Don't worry though--Descent of Angels is hardly the only thing in recent Marine Codexes that should have been in the Daemon Codex.

Take Blood Talons off a Furioso Dreadnaught or Saga of the Warrior Born off a Wolf Lord, put either one on a Bloodthirster, call it Blood for the Blood God and ask yourself if it doesn't make a thousand times more sense.

UberBeast
14-12-2010, 05:30
Deamons need to be summoned through a long process. They aren't exactly unexpected when they arrive: fluffwise.

DeviantApostle
14-12-2010, 06:59
I think every army needs more reliable ways of deep striking/coming on from reserves. Dark Eldar WWP has always been a nice option for this. The game gets much better when the entire board is utilized in my opinion rather than 'no man's land' style face-offs.

Daemons should open rifts to the warp that they can walk out of. That they didn't get something like this in that codex is a travesty. If they are being summoned and Icons are the only way to do it, where's the cultist portion of the army that allows that? Chaos Daemons is probably the poster child for GW really needing to wake up, smell the coffee and decide whether they're a fluff game or a competitive game.

Descent of Angels is great, playing BA is actually more fair when you play them as intended rather than vehicle spam. Except that it's a slap in the face for Daemons.

Heh, I can imagine an 'Orkapult' that flings giant mobs around. Not to mention Ork Teliporta tek is well documented. Stormboyz always good.

ehlijen
14-12-2010, 07:14
Droppods (and sporepods) are the best. Not only do they have the best safety record, but the huge crossection of the thing + disembarkation distance gives the player the best choice in placing his models for full effect. On top of that, they don't test for DT when jumping out of a pod that landed in a rough patch and can even get some cover from the pod itself in the open.

D6 scatter is nice. Not being forced to land in a blast maker bait formation is better.

slayerofmen
14-12-2010, 07:58
I'd have to go out on a limb and say the 1st company arm of the dark angels (deathwing) should be the best of any at it as they do it all the time

Korras
14-12-2010, 08:19
I'd have to go out on a limb and say the 1st company arm of the dark angels (deathwing) should be the best of any at it as they do it all the time

and games-wise, they don't scatter at all if they decide to deep strike near ravenwing bikes. a perfect way to add some punch.

PyroSikTh
14-12-2010, 14:21
I've been thinking about this recently. I reckon Daemons shouldn't scatter at all, and should definitely have the option for a Rift to walk out from. I also think the rule in Daemonic Assault about the wrong half coming in should be gotten rid of completely. It doesn't even make sense Fluffwise. The Gods are fickle, but they're not stupid.

Who should be the best deep-strikers? Daemons. That's how they arrive, and they should be able to do that a lot better than the rest.

Frogczar
14-12-2010, 14:26
The Deathwing.

the Goat
14-12-2010, 14:48
I'd have to go out on a limb and say the 1st company arm of the dark angels (deathwing) should be the best of any at it as they do it all the time

As much as Deathwing do it, Daemons do it a LOT more.

Daemons need a special deepstrike rule. In my opinion the randomness (scatter & roll for which half shows up) are fine. But they should get +2 to their daemonic save during the following enemy turn to represent how they are still only half in the material realm and half in the warp.

UberBeast
14-12-2010, 16:25
Daemons should open rifts to the warp that they can walk out of. That they didn't get something like this in that codex is a travesty. If they are being summoned and Icons are the only way to do it, where's the cultist portion of the army that allows that? Chaos Daemons is probably the poster child for GW really needing to wake up, smell the coffee and decide whether they're a fluff game or a competitive game.


We're not talking about single deamonic possession here. Deamon armies can only exist under specific conditions, such as in the eye of terror, or when a rift is opened as a result of a long summoning process involving blood sacrifice on a world-wide scale. It's assumed that if deamons have showed up there is already a significant chaos presense in the area. Summoning them through an icon is the only way they would deepstrike. Once they have achieved a steady existance they just run around killing things, they don't continue to pop in and out of reality where and how they please.

GrogDaTyrant
14-12-2010, 16:34
I gotta agree that Daemons should be the best Deep Strikers. But currently, I think that title is firmly held onto by Loyalist Marines (and what isn't, these days?).


Stormboyz always good.

Stormboyz are terrible at Deep Striking. I'm not saying they should be good, mind you... But that they're already an overly expensive, 2-dimensional unit with no weapon options or survivability. The last thing you need, is 240+pts landing next to the enemy, with no saving throw worth mentioning.

DJ3
14-12-2010, 16:38
We're not talking about single deamonic possession here. Deamon armies can only exist under specific conditions, such as in the eye of terror, or when a rift is opened as a result of a long summoning process involving blood sacrifice on a world-wide scale. It's assumed that if deamons have showed up there is already a significant chaos presense in the area. Summoning them through an icon is the only way they would deepstrike. Once they have achieved a steady existance they just run around killing things, they don't continue to pop in and out of reality where and how they please.

This may have been the established fluff previously, but that's probably because previously Daemons were usually viewed through their connections to other Chaos worshippers, such as CSM.

In our Codex, there's clearly established situations where Daemons want to do something and pop through into reality to pull it off. Fateweaver, at one point, personally opens a portal and tells the assembled throngs of Daemons to go through and eat the Marines on the other side. That particular story describes an amount of Daemons that is pretty spot-on to what arrives in the first wave of an actual in-game Daemon army, right down to extra Daemons popping in as the fighting continues.

An in-game army is hardly a world-conquering force. Game armies are small enough that a random or Daemon-manufactured Warp Rift could easily allow them through.

UberBeast
14-12-2010, 17:04
That's GW's crappy fluff for you, inconsistent and the newer it gets the less satisfying it is.

In both GW universes, deamons can only exist outside their "Chaos Zone" as part of a massive blood-filled summoning process. Just because someone didn't bother to learn anything about the GW universe before they wrote a little blurb doesn't make the overwhelming amount of established background information incorrect.

DJ3
14-12-2010, 17:59
Just because someone didn't bother to learn anything about the GW universe before they wrote a little blurb doesn't make the overwhelming amount of established background information incorrect.

Neither does the adamant insistence that the old fluff is infallible and inherently better than the new fluff--especially when that attitude is being used as an argument for game mechanics.

I'm sure if everyone sticks to their fluff descriptions from fifteen or twenty years ago, there's plenty of things their current Codexes shouldn't be doing, but yet they are anyway.

the Goat
14-12-2010, 18:19
That's GW's crappy fluff for you, inconsistent and the newer it gets the less satisfying it is.

In both GW universes, deamons can only exist outside their "Chaos Zone" as part of a massive blood-filled summoning process. Just because someone didn't bother to learn anything about the GW universe before they wrote a little blurb doesn't make the overwhelming amount of established background information incorrect.

Except that your understanding of the fluff is wrong. Daemon armies (in both games) operate without being summoned. Sure somebody in the physical realm can use summoning to influence then and where they show up (this is represented by Daemons arriving mid battle in the old Chaos Space Marine codex). But a Daemonic incursion into the material realm can happen straight out of the blue (or out of the red/pink/yellow/etc).

owen matthew
14-12-2010, 18:22
I always thought Deamons should get a bit more love in the Deep strike area, as it is their ONLY mode of deployment. Maybe not the best, but something. As is they are almost unplayable. Great stats and abilities, but horribly random and difficult to get on the board where you want them... too expensive to take risks with in most cases. Here are my thoughts.

1. Scatter like normal, then can assault in the assault phase. (good, but will increase misshaps like crazy)

2. scatter like normal, then can move and assault, like in 3rd ed chaos marine book (probably too tough for this army)

3. never scatter (very good but you still wait a turn to do anything)

4. scatter exactly like drop pods. (same as #3 but much more reasonable)

I bought the book, playtested the hell out of it with my bro and some friends, and then put my 2 deamon armies from Chaos 3rd back on the shelf. This army was a real mistake IMHO. Plus the new models and art in the book all look like hell. Not in the cool deamony way either.

PyroSikTh
14-12-2010, 18:37
This army was a real mistake IMHO. Plus the new models and art in the book all look like hell. Not in the cool deamony way either.

I was agreeing with everything you were saying until this point.

I've never been happier with GW as when they released that codex. I always wanted to be able to field an army made up entirely of Daemons.

I also have to disagree on the models and artwork. Daemons have some of the best models I've seen (next to Dark Eldar), and the artwork is fairly inspiring. So much so that the Daemons codex is by far my favourite codex GW have ever put out.

However, this is all off-topic. I agree with your solutions to Daemonic Assault.

ehlijen
14-12-2010, 18:42
It may just be me, but there's something about all tongue drooping bloodletter units that screams '******' rather than 'fearsome deamons' to me. So yes, I support the claim that the deamon range has some pretty horrid stuff :(

Polaria
14-12-2010, 18:47
I don't see any reason why Chaos Daemons should not scatter or should scatter less when teleporting in. Deep Strike without scattering is nice as it is consistent, reliable and guaranteed way to end up where you want to.

Chaos doesn't do consistency, reliability and certainly doesn't give any guarantees.

There is dozens of ways you could balance the Daemons, but making them play like mechanical teleporter-automatons isn't what should be done. Certain amount of unexpected should be in them as they are Chaos Daemons.

owen matthew
14-12-2010, 19:03
Polaria, fluff aside- because that is how GW does it really, they are a very expensive army that can only Deepstike at all, a bit of mechanical tweaking could not hurt. I would bet a dollar that the design team only allowed for basic DS as a way to ballance out the incredible stats they wrote in, it does make sence that way. GW changes/adds/subtracts fluff as they need to to make the game work, and they always have. I am not arguing to ignore it, but they don't treat it like cannon, why should you?

Pyro, its all opinion when it comes to judging art anyway...

I am pretty sure you could field armys of only deamons in 3rd ed chaos codex as well, and pretty good ones! Look up deamon-bomb, they were tough as hell. Plus the option is there in the new chaos codex, I think (but that set up just sucks). You would need one or two normal models to make it happen in both cases, but really that does not stop you from having an "all deamon army''. This deamon book definately has the character, though.

UberBeast
14-12-2010, 20:32
Except that your understanding of the fluff is wrong. Daemon armies (in both games) operate without being summoned. Sure somebody in the physical realm can use summoning to influence then and where they show up (this is represented by Daemons arriving mid battle in the old Chaos Space Marine codex). But a Daemonic incursion into the material realm can happen straight out of the blue (or out of the red/pink/yellow/etc).


Umm, no my understanding is as it has been written for several decades now in both 40k and WBF, and no a Deamonic incursion into the material realm cannot happen straight out of the blue.

Please read some background info before you try to discredit hundreds of authors, years of consistancy, and part of what has made the game of 40k exist today.


Neither does the adamant insistence that the old fluff is infallible and inherently better than the new fluff--especially when that attitude is being used as an argument for game mechanics.

I'm sure if everyone sticks to their fluff descriptions from fifteen or twenty years ago, there's plenty of things their current Codexes shouldn't be doing, but yet they are anyway.

This is current fluff written write up to this year I'm talking about. Just because someone in an isolated and probably un-edited GW source got it wrong (in a mini fluff blurb) doesn't mean that you can toss it all out and act like I don't have a leg to stand on.

There are hundreds of sources saying it is my way and only one saying it might be your way. I can't quote them all because of copywrite laws but I'd be willing to PM some of those sources to you in private if you're really in doubt and it means that much to you.

PyroSikTh
14-12-2010, 20:44
Umm, no my understanding is as it has been written for several decades now in both 40k and WBF, and no a Deamonic incursion into the material realm cannot happen straight out of the blue.

Please read some background info before you try to discredit hundreds of authors, years of consistancy, and part of what has made the game of 40k exist today.



This is current fluff written write up to this year I'm talking about. Just because someone in an isolated and probably un-edited GW source got it wrong (in a mini fluff blurb) doesn't mean that you can toss it all out and act like I don't have a leg to stand on.

There are hundreds of sources saying it is my way and only one saying it might be your way. I can't quote them all because of copywrite laws but I'd be willing to PM some of those sources to you in private if you're really in doubt and it means that much to you.

Seriously dude, not meaning to sound harsh or anything, but maybe you should just get off your high horse and actually read the fluff in the Daemons codex, rather than continue to preach that we don't have a clue what we're talking about.

DJ3
14-12-2010, 20:46
This is current fluff written write up to this year I'm talking about. Just because someone in an isolated and probably un-edited GW source got it wrong (in a mini fluff blurb) doesn't mean that you can toss it all out and act like I don't have a leg to stand on.

There are hundreds of sources saying it is my way and only one saying it might be your way. I can't quote them all because of copywrite laws but I'd be willing to PM some of those sources to you in private if you're really in doubt and it means that much to you.

Er, it's hardly just that one fluff blurb. The entire Codex is written along those lines.

There's about two pages solely about Warp Rifts, and it literally says that they sometimes occur randomly (in which case Daemons will fight amongst themselves in the Warp for control over it) as well as sometimes being manufactured by mortals or the gods.

It even further elaborates saying that, while they certainly can, the Four prefer not to manually open Warp Rifts themselves, as doing so (on a large scale) takes a meaningful amount of energy and leaves them vulnerable to attacks from the other three--but to open small Rifts takes virtually none of their power.

UberBeast
14-12-2010, 21:00
Er, it's hardly just that one fluff blurb. The entire Codex is written along those lines.

There's about two pages solely about Warp Rifts, and it literally says that they sometimes occur randomly (in which case Daemons will fight amongst themselves in the Warp for control over it) as well as sometimes being manufactured by mortals or the gods.


See now, we're talking about warp rifts, not leaping out of nothing. I said already that they can't exist outside of a warp-rift (I believe my words were "chaos zone" because I was including WFB as well) unless summoned and you contradicted me. Either we're both right or we're both wrong here.

DJ3
14-12-2010, 21:16
See now, we're talking about warp rifts, not leaping out of nothing. I said already that they can't exist outside of a warp-rift (I believe my words were "chaos zone" because I was including WFB as well) unless summoned and you contradicted me. Either we're both right or we're both wrong here.

Aside from being nitpicky as all hell, what is the possible difference between "leaping out of nothing" and "the Daemons can open their own warp rifts"?

A Warp Rift is just a hole between the dimensions that Daemons pour through. The Codex is saying that the Four can open their own Warp Rifts when they want to, rather than relying on cultists to perform summonings.

owen matthew
14-12-2010, 21:43
Aside from being nitpicky as all hell, what is the possible difference between "leaping out of nothing" and "the Daemons can open their own warp rifts"?

No kidding.

UberBeast
14-12-2010, 21:54
Aside from being nitpicky as all hell, what is the possible difference between "leaping out of nothing" and "the Daemons can open their own warp rifts"?

A Warp Rift is just a hole between the dimensions that Daemons pour through. The Codex is saying that the Four can open their own Warp Rifts when they want to, rather than relying on cultists to perform summonings.

If that's the case then the codex changes all the fluff everywhere. It changes the whole point of the Cadian gate, it changes the fluff behind the Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom, it changes everything in every book on daemons before it, and with only one poorly thought out idea. Even as you're telling it to me, the greater powers supposedly can open a gate but they never do, because it leaves them open to eachother? Isn't that enough right there to invalidate the idea of them poping here and there at will?

If you can't understand why this would be an issue to someone who is discussing why the army shouldn't be the best deep striking army in the game then perhaps you should just try experiencing the wider world of fluff that GW has been developing for over 35 years now.

Bestaltan
14-12-2010, 22:24
Atm daemons are no where near the top of the list for a competitive or scary army to fight against.


Tell that to the guy that won this year's Ard Boyz in LA (if the internet results are to be trusted).

DJ3
14-12-2010, 22:46
If you can't understand why this would be an issue to someone who is discussing why the army shouldn't be the best deep striking army in the game then perhaps you should just try experiencing the wider world of fluff that GW has been developing for over 35 years now.

Unfortunately, there's no actual argument to be made against "THE OLD FLUFF WAS BETTER AND THAT IS THE END."

If they want to change the rules of their fictional universe because they think it will improve their game, they're kinda allowed to do that.

As far as game mechanics are concerned, you're basing your opinion of how Daemons enter the world on a version of the fiction that doesn't exist anymore. The current fiction, within the Daemon Codex--where the rules for such Deep Strike benefits would be included--are very clearly not in agreement with your view of how Daemons work.

The Codex works the way we're telling you it works, and the Codex is where the rules live. No amount of anger over GW daring to change the parameters of their own storyline can change what the current Codex is telling us.

Inquisitor_Eljer
14-12-2010, 22:47
Best Deep Strikers = Grey Knights (or hopefully will be when we get a new Codex)

LonelyPath
14-12-2010, 22:55
Best Deep Strikers = Grey Knights (or hopefully will be when we get a new Codex)

This FTW! GK should be the best Deep Strikers, at least as far as the Imperium goes.

Charistoph
14-12-2010, 23:05
If that's the case then the codex changes all the fluff everywhere. It changes the whole point of the Cadian gate, it changes the fluff behind the Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom, it changes everything in every book on daemons before it, and with only one poorly thought out idea. Even as you're telling it to me, the greater powers supposedly can open a gate but they never do, because it leaves them open to eachother? Isn't that enough right there to invalidate the idea of them poping here and there at will?

If you can't understand why this would be an issue to someone who is discussing why the army shouldn't be the best deep striking army in the game then perhaps you should just try experiencing the wider world of fluff that GW has been developing for over 35 years now.

Welcome to 5th Edition!

In all seriousness, there is support for both views. The way I look at it, Daemons always come through portals. How and what those portals are, are largely up to the case in point. The closer to the Eye of Terror, the less "help" the Daemon needs to open one. The farther away, the more they need either psykers or arcane tech to open the pathway. Then there are those Warp Storms... Once the initial gate is open, Warp energy begins to flood the area/planet/system. The Daemons then use that energy to open up other portals at places of need, often staying in the Warp until there is sufficient sentient presence to warrant stepping "out in the cold".

GrogDaTyrant
15-12-2010, 00:20
This FTW! GK should be the best Deep Strikers, at least as far as the Imperium goes.

In other words... The Best Deep-Strikers.

Arvendragon
15-12-2010, 02:00
If that's the case then the codex changes all the fluff everywhere. It changes the whole point of the Cadian gate, it changes the fluff behind the Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom, it changes everything in every book on daemons before it, and with only one poorly thought out idea. Even as you're telling it to me, the greater powers supposedly can open a gate but they never do, because it leaves them open to eachother? Isn't that enough right there to invalidate the idea of them poping here and there at will?

If you can't understand why this would be an issue to someone who is discussing why the army shouldn't be the best deep striking army in the game then perhaps you should just try experiencing the wider world of fluff that GW has been developing for over 35 years now.

What about the CHaos Legions? All the Space Marines, the Rebels, the Traitors, those who are not Daemons and can not go through warp rifts, and likely (or has thus far been shown) the majority of the forces of Chaos within the normal galaxy?

UberBeast
15-12-2010, 04:47
My point is that the entire battle as we know it between the Imperium and Chaos hinges on how Chaos can enter the real world. Everything in the current and past fluff falls apart if chaos can open portals whenever and wherever they want. The whole defence of the cadian gate is a moot point, the premise for about half of their novels where they are trying to stop a chaos ritual to stop chaos from being summoned, the first war for Armageddon, the Grey knights books, all of the Ordo heriticus fluff from novels and from the inquisitor game, everything!

If someone accidentally wrote that the Emperor is actually dead and his soul left his body 10,000 years ago, wouldn't that call into question nearly all the fluff for the Imperium, the astronomicon, the whole point of terra and really screw the premise of the whole world? That's how big a deal it is that some ***** who didn't know the fluff made up some minor burp of a fluff mistake that is completely contrary to the way the entire fictional universe works.

All I am saying is that when a piece of fluff is contrary to everything else and ruins the whole premise of the fictional world it is suppose to mesh into, then it's probably not something that was well thought out or that should be accepted by the fans. It was bound to happen and it clearly has.

big squig
15-12-2010, 04:56
Necrons should be the king of teleportation.

dancingcricket
15-12-2010, 05:14
Necrons 'should' be the best deep strikers. Bits and pieces of them teleport off the battlefield for repair. They already have short range teleportation equipment that a necron lord can take. Their support vehicle allows them to teleport across the battlefield. They've got disappearing and reappearing down to a science. If anyone shouldn't deviate when they deepstrike via some form of teleportation, it should be them.

As for Daemons, I'd be ok with the deepstrike how it is now, with the addition of giving Slaanesh daemons the ability to assault off of the deepstrike. That'd make them a lot more useful, whereas right now they tend to show up, and die quickly to small arms fire. For all their rending attacks, 10 daemonettes are going to do very little to 10 marines, but they may tie them up so that other units have a chance to land undamaged.

Either that, or allow daemons to take more anti-tank shooting for when they land.

the Goat
16-12-2010, 13:11
. . .Even as you're telling it to me, the greater powers supposedly can open a gate but they never do, because it leaves them open to eachother? Isn't that enough right there to invalidate the idea of them poping here and there at will?
We are talking about the Chaos powers having the ability to open one or two small gateways large enough for a small band of Daemons to temporary manifest in the material realm (this would result in a normal 40k battle). You are talking about the Chaos powers having the ability to open thousands of large gateways for an extended period of time, in order to support the billions of Daemons that would be required for the sort of major conflict that could have any impact on the overall Imperial-vs-Chaos balance in the 40K universe (this would be a 100,000,000,000+ point Apocalypse battle). These are two very different concepts. If you don't see the difference then you are beyond my help.

freeeeekaz
24-12-2010, 16:08
even in C:BA there is a rift mentioned that is opened by one latent psyker

UberBeast
24-12-2010, 16:10
even in C:BA there is a rift mentioned that is opened by one latent psyker

Latent psykers have always been a conduit for deamonic possession. That isn't the same as deep striking.

regardless, Necrons should be much better at deep striking, they literally just phase in and out of places without a need to summon them or link them to a body or artifact. Necrons can exist outside of a warp rift, and warp rifts are easily sensed by any psycher around so they are hardly a surprise on the same scale most deep strikers would be.

adeptusphotographicus
26-12-2010, 09:48
seems a fallacy to imply or assume Chaos has any limits whatsoever. equally to think they are limitless in power and options.

the 40K universe is so vast and the stories cover such vast spans of time , I think statistically almost any outcome can or will happen at least once.

Thus in a case, or some cases demons can and will ad did open a warp rift.

thus in a case a cult could do the same.

likewise a time place could be such that niether is possible with out some esoteric element .. ritual.. desecration of a certain thing.. etc

Seems silly to argue such a thing IS or ISN"T possible when logic implies almost anything can/will/or did happen.. and likely will/won't/or never again..

this is Chaos you are talking about yes.. anything at all can/can't and will/wont happen.

ChaosTicket
26-12-2010, 13:27
The second best Teleporters are the Imperials, specifically Astartes, and even more Specifically the Grey Knights. The Eldar have the best teleportation technology whether its using stable webways, or its the Craftworld Spiders using teleporters mid-battle.

As for the Jump users, Swooping Hawks and Scourges are probably the best simply because they have the highest technology(Pseudo-wings) and mid-long range weapons so they can use their speed to stay away from swarms instead of charging like Orks or Assault Marines.

Daemons coalesce into existence due to whatever rituals are used to summon them, and even if something goes wrong before they form, whats going to happen? They are already made of the warp and return to it when they die, so it doesnt matter if they dont all show up.
-------------------------------------------
Chaos Legions cant pop up anywhere. Only a few Sorcerors can do that and then not entire armies. Chaos still needs transports, drop pods, teleporters, etc.

AFnord
26-12-2010, 13:59
Who should be the best is really a bit hard to say. Dark eldar feels like they should be highly accurate in their deep strikeing (with the units that can deep strike), as should eldar. Daemons are not infallible beings who can pop up anywhere they want, so they should really not be the most accurate ones.
But while we are on the subject of daemons, their deep strikeing should be reworked, at least a bit. While the first wave of daemons should scatter, the ones who appear should somehow be able to guide their fellow daemons into the material realm (to make daemons a bit more reliable, not from a fluff point of view). One way of doing this would be to let troop daemons guide daemons from the same god into reality by making them not scatter if they appear within say 12" (so a unit of flesh hounds would not scatter if they appear near a unit of bloodletters).