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Malorian
13-12-2010, 21:30
As many of us know 8th no longer cares if you are fleeing at the end of the game as long as you are still on the board, and so if you are charged last turn you can flee with little worries.

What I'm wondering is how people view this tactic.


Does your group see this as a smart tactic that simply uses the rules to avoid last turn point loss?

Or does your group see this as a cowardly way to weasel out of an epic last turn fight?

Thoughts?

Sexiest_hero
13-12-2010, 21:46
it's something that rarely pops up. But why would you stand for a charge in any turn when you may lose the unit?

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
13-12-2010, 21:47
I play only because I love the story behind the game and the narrative of the campaign. So I would never use such a dirty meta-tactic* because I think it kills the spirit of the game.

*I'm not sure if this phrase that I just made up really applies.

Mosedeke
13-12-2010, 21:50
I play Skaven primarily, so both gamewise and fluffwise I have no issue turning tail and running for the hills.

My Dark Elves, though, will stand to a charge no matter what. Over confident little guys they are.

jthdotcom
13-12-2010, 21:53
I'm going to house rule it at my club that fleeing at game end=destroyed as per previous editions

jumai
13-12-2010, 21:59
I remember one game where I spent the entire top of 6 moving out of charge arcs and ranges... the two units I'd been tarpitting all game had broken free and I had nothing left intact enough to face them down.

As a Beastmen player, I insisted that for my mass of fur and horn to come howling out of the woods, splinter off and swarm under as large a group of men-prey as the Gods would grant, and then scatter into the wilderness was entirely appropriate, and completely not shameful. Many boasts about the prowess and daring of the raiders would be told this night! But I acknowledged my opponent's moral victory nonetheless.

I guess I'm lucky in that my main opponent and I tally up victory points at the end of the game more out of curiosity than anything. As long as the game was interesting and interactive, we tend to consider the hours well spent.

Warrio
13-12-2010, 22:04
Scrubs will claim that it is 'unfair' or 'out of the spirit' however, like sacrificing a mighty knight for a well placed pawn in a game of chess there is not honour or rank in a game. There is winning and losing.
The fun of the game for me is seeing if you can outsmart your mate within the bounds of the rules.

RanaldLoec
13-12-2010, 22:12
As a woodelve and Empire player I can justify it fluff wise.

Woodelves its what we do shoot the crap out of you while running away around and behind you.

Empire we fall back rank by rank with discipline and order wittling you down then we spring the trap with massed infantry and well ordered detachments.

That is some armys play style and I wouldn't be grudge an opponent who runs away to fight another day.

theunwantedbeing
13-12-2010, 22:23
A tactical retreat is perfectly valid.
Even if some involved do get a bit carried away and start shreiking like a girl and waving their arms about.

spiderman5z
13-12-2010, 23:06
As a tomb kings player I must say I would NEVER use this tactic... because I can't... XD

LevDaddy
13-12-2010, 23:15
As a tomb kings player I must say I would NEVER use this tactic... because I can't... XD

I guess that makes Tomb Kings and my beloved Vampire Counts the most noble, honorable and brave out of all the Warhammer Armies!!!!

On a more serious note, I am yet to encounter anyone using this tactic to get an underhanded win at the buzzer. I agree with a previous poster that said they would never take a charge that they were bound to get creamed with, regardless of what turn it was, so doing so for the sake of the game would be stupid if you were trying to win. If it was a fun game without a competitive backbone, I've taken charges 'just to see what happens' even though I knew I would get creamed.

If someone did consistantly mass flee just to avoid a loss I might be miffed, but there's always the risk that I roll high vs a low flee roll and he gets wiped outright. Having said all that I think houseruling something like this would be overkill, and the DBs that always play cheesy will be DBs anyway.

Torpedo Vegas
13-12-2010, 23:16
I don't really do it, as the way I distribute my characters and organize my units, basically every troop block in my Empire army is either Unbreakable or has LD9 with re-rolls, as well as being fielded super deep. As such, I tend to not flee if I can ensure that the charging unit will get stucki n for the whole game.

I recall once I held up a 20 man block of Swordmasters with a block of Swordsmen. The way I run my army is basically just trolling my opponent.

russellmoo
14-12-2010, 04:43
This is another reason why I think cavalry is still necessary in every army- they can occasionally catch the last turn fleeing unit-

On the reverse- if you have space to flee without going off the board it's usually because you were playing aggressively and the one who advanced on your enemy and as such it is a good thing as it rewards players who go on the offensive-

I witnessed a game yesterday where a doombull survived, saving the player 350pts as he fled on turn 5, rallied then fled again on turn 6 to stay alive.

Scythe
14-12-2010, 06:39
A valid tactic. Maybe not a very honorable one, but those metagame considerations always existed in some way. In a previous edition, there was no reason to ever flee from the enemies if your opponent got the last turn.

Dutch_Digger
14-12-2010, 09:23
I would expect my opponent to use such strategies as he sees fit, in 7th, people would hide an almost destroyed unit of marauder knights behind trees, just the same, a clever tactic that might **** of the opponent, it's all part of the game.

The fact that some armies can do this and some cannot (ItP) makes this a very interesting rule that keeps the game alive and kicking.

You can allways choose not to do it yourself and be the better man, when you think it doesnt fit your fluff, (i play goblins atm so i dont worry about that) I can imagine it being unfluffy for a bret player to run away in the last turn, forsaking any blessings just to postpone the fight for 1 turn.

Ward.
14-12-2010, 10:30
A tactical retreat is perfectly valid.
Even if some involved do get a bit carried away and start shrieking like a girl and waving their arms about.

This, I'm not going to complain about an increase in the tactical density of warhammer.

musical
14-12-2010, 10:44
As a night globlin player I think it is actually quite a clever thing to do.

bluemage
14-12-2010, 15:49
Of course I would flee. If fleeing during the last turn of the game is the tactically correct choice to make, I'll make it regardless of whether it contradicts the fluff.

Malorian
14-12-2010, 16:36
Now that there is a good amount of replies I'll give my thoughts.


I agree that it should be seen as a standard tactic, and so I was just surprised when in a recent game I took some boos for doing so.

I mean really, am I suppose to stand around and let you crush one of my units on the last turn for the win rather than flee and give my self the win?

The only way I wouldn't do it is in a game where the enemy generals were going to face off on the last turn. The idea of that alone could make me take the hit for a big finish.

Other than that though I see it as a part of eight and shuold be seen in the same eyes as redirecting charges or shooting characters through the trees.

Bgmique
15-12-2010, 03:33
I see nothing wrong with this tactic, although I might be tempted to take a charge if there might be some bonus in terms of narrative. I believe the general v. general has already been mentioned.

If you're playing to win (you should always play to have fun)then running is the obvious choice. Maybe my line falls back once the rear guard has been perpetrated successfully, or once the defensive line has been constructed.

Playing narrative campaigns with specific goals will have an impact on the use of this.

If over the campaign I've fought my way to the heart of your lands and am laying siege to your capital, you find yourself with the advantage at the end of a game.

1. Your relief force is behind me, about to break the siege, I should break off with all available resources with the hopes of smashing through your relief and making it safely back to my borders and/or invasion fleet.

2. No relief behind me? I might press the attack with the hopes of breaking you at the last moment and seizing victory from the icy cold hands of defeat. Even if that means simply continuing the siege until you starve to death.

ROCKY
15-12-2010, 05:15
Now that there is a good amount of replies I'll give my thoughts.


I agree that it should be seen as a standard tactic, and so I was just surprised when in a recent game I took some boos for doing so.

I mean really, am I suppose to stand around and let you crush one of my units on the last turn for the win rather than flee and give my self the win?

The only way I wouldn't do it is in a game where the enemy generals were going to face off on the last turn. The idea of that alone could make me take the hit for a big finish.

Other than that though I see it as a part of eight and shuold be seen in the same eyes as redirecting charges or shooting characters through the trees.


I agree and disagree with mal on this point. I agree in terms of serious matches and tourneys then by all means, being the point is to win and rack up points. however, if i am playing a friend of regular opponent for fun and we want to have a great match then i would not run (unless it was suicide to stay like getting my marauders charged by 2 brettonian busses). so in this aspect i believe that we need to hold back our competitive side and have a great game.

Havock
17-12-2010, 01:12
This is one of the reasons why we play with the following modifications of earning VP's for units:
Above half strength, not fleeing: None, obviously.
Above half strength, falling back: Half VP's
Below half strength, not fleeing: Half VP's
Below Half strength, falling back: Full VP's
Destroyed: Full Vp's, obviously.

Teongpeng
17-12-2010, 01:52
IMO, hard rules like this should be played the way its meant in the game design. One just have to adapt one's strategy and think steps ahead to prevent enemies from cheaply getting away. Yes, it can be done. Yes, 8th is officially more tactical than 7th.

Suck it up.

Havock
17-12-2010, 01:59
In your opinion, yes.

Not like most people are experiencing it. It is certainly not -my- experience.
It is also beside the point in this topic, there is -no- tactical sense in simply declaring a flee response if you are around his max charge distance on the last turn/tourney time limit.
it is just metagaming.
"Lol, time's up, universe kerplodey"

Teongpeng
17-12-2010, 02:22
In your opinion, yes.

Not like most people are experiencing it. It is certainly not -my- experience.
It is also beside the point in this topic, there is -no- tactical sense in simply declaring a flee response if you are around his max charge distance on the last turn/tourney time limit.
it is just metagaming.
"Lol, time's up, universe kerplodey"ok, so you cant adapt. not the game's fault.

Havock
17-12-2010, 02:49
Considering I play about a bajillion wargames (ok, so it is about a handful, my point still stands :p), I think I can adapt quite nicely. I just find 8th ed totally lacking in tactical depth compared to those games (not that 7th was the benchmark of immersion, but still, moreso)

Torpedo Vegas
17-12-2010, 03:10
Can we avoid getting into the 7th/8th argument? Its derailed so many threads lately its absurd.

Havock
17-12-2010, 03:55
Indeed.

Point still stands, using the last turn as a free getaway to 'get out of charges' is silly. I can understand it if they are battles you could not win (Light infantry vs khorne halberd blenders) But simply fleeing because you are winning and don't feel like risking more in that last turn is game-y.

FashaTheDog
17-12-2010, 04:09
I have found that if I need to charge if I can so my Chaos Warriors can find glory. Should I refuse to charge that lone champion into certain death to save myself three or four-hundred points, I may come out better that game, but my dice will betray me at every turn in the next few games so I make the charge anyway with the cry of "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD" or THRONES FOR THE BLOOD GOD" or perhaps even just "A NICE CARDIGAN FOR THE BLOOD GOD!" Then my dice acknowledge my devotion to fluff and forgive my shameless power gaming and aid me in the next game. As such running is out of the question for them.

I do have some Goblins and after having this done to me in my last game (my foe fought for the draw, fleeing from me at every turn), I see no problem with them doing it. The Daemons lack that option and Khorne wouldn't let me even if they were allowed to. My new Empire army has yet to see the table but it seems fun for them to try it. And then we have the ever honorable Vampires so they can't flee either.

Lord Inquisitor
17-12-2010, 04:25
It's an issue more of the fixed game length. If you didn't know when the game would end, you probably wouldn't flee. The same is true of objective grabs in say 40k or Epic, if you have certainty in when the game ends, such "gamey" tactics will happen as you know you won't have reprisals as your opponent won't have another turn.

Oddly enough there IS (as was pointed out to me recently and I'll bet more than a few of you didn't know this either!) a fantasy scenario with random game length - watchtower. Shame it's such a wonky scenario otherwise.

Trains_Get_Robbed
17-12-2010, 07:07
I flee with my H.E on occasion where I don't see it fit for me to stick around against 70 mauraders of Kornes with G.W, it just becomes a meat blender.

pacmanswang
17-12-2010, 16:34
Indeed.

Point still stands, using the last turn as a free getaway to 'get out of charges' is silly. I can understand it if they are battles you could not win (Light infantry vs khorne halberd blenders) But simply fleeing because you are winning and don't feel like risking more in that last turn is game-y.

i disagree. it's realistic that a group would flee from a fight they're not going to win/that holds minimal tactical advantage. this attitude of run away to fight another day is reflected in the fact you haven't squandered resources in pointless fights and so don't lose VPs

Havock
17-12-2010, 19:38
i disagree. it's realistic that a group would flee from a fight they're not going to win/that holds minimal tactical advantage. this attitude of run away to fight another day is reflected in the fact you haven't squandered resources in pointless fights and so don't lose VPs

Yes, to a point, but when you send half your army running away just to 'save yourself' possible (ie, less lopsided than meatblender scenarios) bad combats when you -know- the game is going to end because of
A- turn 6
B- "20 minute-mark" or whatever they use on the tourney you are at.

As said, random game length would alleviate this problem.
I still like my idea though, fleeing from a fight is not a 'get out of jail for free'-card, though you won't get your **** penalized too harshly for the occasional bad dice roll (half points should be salvagable), but likewise your opponent is rewarded in some way for 'gaining ground'. You -are- running away after all, he 'won' the fight by you forfeiting it.

7th ed was harsh on bad psych tests, 8th ed is too easy on the 'just let them run'-thing, a middle road is best. IMHO.

SilasOfTheLambs
17-12-2010, 19:48
-.- nobody complains when you flee from a disadvantageous charge in the middle of the game.

Frankly, I think the rule about fleeing units is awful, one of the biggest steps backward in the new rulebook. But if it's there, nobody should take any flak for using it. What's a rulebook for?

goodz
17-12-2010, 20:00
Depends on the game, if it is a massacre vs a loss i probably would just take it as i would rather have every man die for their failures on the field (i take no responsability for that, and with no survivors i can not be held accountable)

I think the point where maybe it could get lame, is if its a fairly even combat but your opponent feels he is slightly ahead in points and would rather not risk the game on a final fair fight:P But I wouldn't hold it against him some people really like to win.

Often in friendly games if our generals are locked in a final battle, we will play it out beyond turn 6 for fun... even tho we are essentially just rolling dice:P

Bgmique
17-12-2010, 20:34
(i take no responsability for that, and with no survivors i can not be held accountable)

I'd like to hear the exchange once you report back to your superiors.

"I'm back!"

"Where's your army?"

"What army? I never had an army."

"I'm pretty sure we gave you an army"

"Nope, I don't think that was me."

-awkward silence-

russellmoo
18-12-2010, 21:59
Having your army wiped out and returning by yourself works just fine for Skaven- as obviously it's the fault of your conniving grey seer, your overly ambitious warlord, and the shoddy machines sold to you by Clan Skryre-

SlaaneshSlave
19-12-2010, 02:28
One of the silly aspects of 7ed was if it was the bottom of 6, fleeing was no longer a valid tactic. Fleeing was often a very smart strategy in any turn except the bottom of 6 because you just gave your opponent full VP's for that unit.

Do we really want to go back to fleeing is not allowed in the bottom of the 6th turn? How is that more "manly" or fair-play?

DeathlessDraich
19-12-2010, 16:09
As many of us know 8th no longer cares if you are fleeing at the end of the game as long as you are still on the board, and so if you are charged last turn you can flee with little worries.

What I'm wondering is how people view this tactic.


Does your group see this as a smart tactic that simply uses the rules to avoid last turn point loss?

Or does your group see this as a cowardly way to weasel out of an epic last turn fight?

Thoughts?

What?? I thought this was going to be a discussion on running after girls.

Oh! Just re-read the title - so it's not running after girls after all :D

RanaldLoec
19-12-2010, 16:37
Last time I ran after girls I got arrested.

Joking it was boys.

Again just joking it was my cat after it mauled my Karl franz on foot.