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OldMan
14-12-2010, 17:13
A bit inspired by eldar paths thread.

Unless i am mistaken, all Eldar gods are dead, swallowed by Slaanesh at her birth. To worhip thme to them is as pointless as to praing to a chair.

Still reading the other thread gave me impression it is not that way, and that the gods are still worshipped - true or not?

The second thing. Khaine and the Laughing God (the Fool) are the only survivors among eldar gods. The Fool because he was at exile (again) imposed on him as punishment ( yet another) for some of his misbehaviour. Khaine nobody knows why.
Do Craftword eldar ( or exodities) worhip Cegorach the Fool? After all he seems to care about race's survival, and there are only two gods to pray for help to. Or is it for some unexplicable reason Harlequin only god?? I always though Harlequins are kind of Fool's monks - those who devoted all their lives (and soules) to him.

BTW. As being in infinity circuit is not very pleasant, why Craftworlders stick to it? Why not just turn to Cegorath, and wear this funky soulstone only after an unfortunate occurence of failed initiation ritual?

ForgottenLore
14-12-2010, 17:53
We've been going over this in the Solitaires thread, none of the Harlequins wear waystones (which is what a soulstone is called before it has a soul in it). The ritual that makes a Harlequin somewho protects their souls and binds them to the Laughing God. Why the Solitaires are different is what that thread is about and has apparently changed significantly over the years.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286084

sharkaithegreat
14-12-2010, 17:56
Doesn't Nurgle keep one of them in a cage to test his diseases and plagues on?

ForgottenLore
14-12-2010, 17:59
It is rumored that Nurgle has Isha, the Eldar God of Healing, someone here on warseer has a sig about it, but I can't find a source for it.

Hendarion
14-12-2010, 17:59
Laughing God (the Fool)
He is called the Fool? O.o Never heard that before.


The Fool because he was at exile (again) imposed on him as punishment ( yet another) for some of his misbehaviour.
Never heard that either.

From where is all that stuff? I'm curious now.


BTW. As being in infinity circuit is not very pleasant, why Craftworlders stick to it? Why not just turn to Cegorath, and wear this funky soulstone only after an unfortunate occurence of failed initiation ritual?
That is actually the thing that Harlequins probably want to explain to all others ;)
But being a Harlequin is not the same as being an Eldar. Same as being an Exodith or a Craftworld-Path-Follower is not really being an Eldar. Not even Dark Eldar can be claimed to be fully living like an original Eldar, as they need to feed on pain.
The only ones that might live as closed as an Eldar far before the Fall are the corsairs I think (no restrictions, but no extreme hedonism either). But they are in danger though ;) We'll only truly know after Gav's last book of the three ;)

ryng_sting
14-12-2010, 18:05
The CWE and Exodites venerate the memory of their fallen Gods, but don't actually worship them. And Harlequins don't wear waystones, for the simple reason that they don't need to - apart from that of the Solitaire, they're the rightful property of The Laughing God.

Kage2020
14-12-2010, 18:07
Unless i am mistaken, all Eldar gods are dead, swallowed by Slaanesh at her birth.
"Dead" might be a strong way of putting it, but certainly they're not happy cookies. Of those deities described, three "survive:"

The Laughing God (Webway);
Khaine (shattered into the Avatars); and
Isha (held captive by Nurgle)


To worhip thme to them is as pointless as to praing to a chair.
Yes and no. From King's Farseer we're given to understand that the Eldar can "evoke" the gods, though it is more akin to putting forth ones energy and creating an echo of what once was. Just how much significance you put into this is going to vary. On my own behalf I can readily imagine that Eldar may mourn the passing of their gods as a form of respect and, indeed, may even come to associate with them during their lives. Consider it homage.


Still reading the other thread gave me impression it is not that way, and that the gods are still worshipped - true or not?
True. And not.

This is, after all, the 40k universe.


The Fool because he was at exile (again) imposed on him as punishment ( yet another) for some of his misbehaviour. Khaine nobody knows why.
Well, as much as we know anything for sure, Khaine survived to fracture into the Avatars because his essence was fought over by Khorne (who considered him a part of itself) and Slaanesh (who considered everything Eldar as its own). The Laughing God, on the other hand, evaded Slaanesh and hid in the Webway.

Of the two, the Laughing God is meant to be intact and occasionally sallies forth to select Solitaires and tweak the nose of Slaanesh. Personally I buy this as much as the physically manifesting gods of the War in Heaven, which is to say not all, and have the price for its survival being integration into the Webway. Rather than the Laughing God as an entity, what sallies forth is an avatar/daimon that is invested with a portion of the power of the Laughing God.


Do Craftword eldar ( or exodities) worhip Cegorach the Fool? After all he seems to care about race's survival, and there are only two gods to pray for help to.
The nature of Eldar religion is an interesting, and thorny, issue. As above, I personally have the Eldar mourning their gods, but also "worshipping" them in their survival and their everyday lives. Throughout a craftworld I could see shrines to the Fallen Gods, a whispered prayer to an echo of once was, etc.

Do the Eldar believe that this does any "good" since they believe their deities to be 'dead?' Probably not, but I doubt that the relationship of oneself to ones god is measured by reciprocity. To liberally pilfer, "Ask not what your god can do for you--ask what you can do for your god."


Or is it for some unexplicable reason Harlequin only god?? I always though Harlequins are kind of Fool's monks - those who devoted all their lives (and soules) to him.
I imagine that the Harlequins have a more direct relationship with the Laughing God or, as you say, they are its "clerics" and are invested with fragments of its power.


BTW. As being in infinity circuit is not very pleasant, why Craftworlders stick to it? Why not just turn to Cegorath, and wear this funky soulstone only after an unfortunate occurence of failed initiation ritual?
Perhaps the price or payment that the Laughing God exacts is not for everyone, or not something that all Eldar could pay? Just what that might be would be up for each individual to determine, but one could readily imagine analogies with the Eternal Matrix itself.

And the mausoleum aspect to the Infinity Circuit is one that has always bugged me since it was introduced seemingly as a way to stop the Eldar from being an army of undead robots. Tiresome, in my mind, with the far more elegant solution being to (once again) pilfer from the mind of Peter F. Hamilton and the Edenist habitats.

YMMV, as always.

Kage

Edit: Forgive the repetition of some of this post. I would say I was "ninja'd" by the other posters, but I think it just took me a longer time to formulate a reply. Darned multi-tasking and trying to write about 19th-century landscapes once again. :eyebrows:

Eumerin
14-12-2010, 19:21
Of the two, the Laughing God is meant to be intact and occasionally sallies forth to select Solitaires and tweak the nose of Slaanesh. Personally I buy this as much as the physically manifesting gods of the War in Heaven, which is to say not all, and have the price for its survival being integration into the Webway. Rather than the Laughing God as an entity, what sallies forth is an avatar/daimon that is invested with a portion of the power of the Laughing God.

The original Solitaire fluff mentioned incidents in which individual eldar belatedly realized that the "Solitaire" that had helped them in reality had been Cegorach in disguise. I'm not sure how well that meshes with the later Solitaire fluff, though. It's not that the idea is directly contradicted. It's that the new ideas behind the Solitaire (which seem to link them more closely with Slaanesh) don't blend so well with the idea that Cegorach sometimes appears as a Solitaire.

Idaan
15-12-2010, 10:51
The canon is silent on what the Harlequins do, though they do wear soulstones (except Solitaires who are so close to Slannesh that their souls are forefeit regardless of having a soulstone at hand except when Cegorach rarely manages to reclaim one). That Harlequins wear soulstones suggest their souls are deposited into some sort of wraithbone construct, maybe the Black Library.

As said, they don't wear spirit stones. The Ritual that they undertake as rite of passage joins their souls to Cegorach, allowing them to live without them, not experiencing the souldrain However, this means that they are robbed of personality and become unable to think outside of the role their playing. And on death they become part of Cegorach's potential. This means that, frankly, it's not really a better option than Infinity Circuits.



The Fool because he was at exile (again) imposed on him as punishment ( yet another) for some of his misbehaviour. Khaine nobody knows why.Nope. According to the myth, he survived because he hid behind Khaine's back during the fight with Slaanesh. There's a second version of the story though, one that I prefer much more:

And as the Great Enemy feasted on the souls of the Sons of Asuryan, there was one who stood aside from the feast and laughed like ajester, watching as the newly birted daemon slaked his thirst with the souls of his kin.

He laughed until the hallowed halls of Arcadia shook, his mirth riddling the magnificent walls with jewels and radiant light.

He laughed as his enfeebled kinsmen fought in vain, falling like wheat before the scythe.

He laughed at the earnest seriousness of Kaela Mensha Khaine, as he swirled and battled the undeniable daemon.

He laughed as his fear-gripped kinsmen took to the skies in their monstrous craftworlds, aiming to flee from their own natures and from the unquenchable thirst that they had loosed on the galaxy.

He laughed as the daemon of Slaanesh turned its hungry and lascivious eyes onto him.

He laughed in the face of damnation, ridiculing the grandiloquence and pomp, finding nothing but amusement in the drama and the death that unravelled around him.

He laughed, knowing that his kinsmen had brought this ruination upon themselves, knowing that this knowledge made him different.

And Slaanesh could find no sustenance in the grinning and mocking face of the Laughing God. As the craftworld eldar fled to the heavens, the Daemon of Passion eyed the Great Jester with cold detachment and disdain, and then threw itself into their pursuit.

And so the Laughing God laughed until his stomach ruptured and his tears fell, spilling his life force over the corpse-strewn floor of his amphithreatre; where each droplet fell, a giggling eldar Harlequin was returned to the living.

Excerpt from "The Mythic Remembrances of Yvraelle", by Rafaellus Kneg, Heirosavant of the Callidus Temple (901.M41).
Amazingly, this is written by C.S. Goto. And I love it - there were islands of awesomeness in that sea of crap.


Regarding the true reason for why Cegorach survived, it's been theorised that the devoured god already belonged in Slaanesh's "portfolio" so to say (similarly how Khaine feeds on the same emotion that Khorne) - they either represented indulgence and egotism from the beginning, or were tainted by it when the Eldar society reached its very heights. After all, as masters of galaxy, they had no need for the old gods as they were: no need for Kurnous and Isha as they didn't grow crops or hunt game, no need for Morai-Heg as there was no knowledge hidden from them, no need for Lileath as innocence had no meaning, etc etc. So the aspects of the gods related to indulgence would naturally grow in power - "Path of the Warrior" suggests that Kurnous wasn't only a hunter figure, but also a god of the feast - naturally when you don't hunt and feast a lot, this aspect would become more prominent.

Now the only gods that weren't drawn into future Slaanesh's domain were Khaine and Cegorach. Khaine had no aspects other than war, belonging firmly into Khorne's domain and being opposite to Slaanesh. Cegorach was a trickster god (so Tzeentch's domain), and he represented the sardonic, irreverent part of the Eldar nature. He was so selfless in his mockery, that the ultimately egotic Slaanesh had no common ground with him. Thus he escaped.


It is rumored that Nurgle has Isha, the Eldar God of Healing, someone here on warseer has a sig about it, but I can't find a source for it.
It's a myth believed on one, small, unnamed Craftworld (as stated in the Daemon Codex). And given how belief shapes reality based on the number of believers mainly (eg. one Ork can't call the fist of Gork/Mork strike down from the sky, but with enough Orks believe it, it really manifests), a belief of a very, very small minority won't have much impact.

On the other hand, going by the theory I mentioned, it would certainly be possible for Nurgle to possess at least part of Isha's power - as a goddess of fertility, the turn of seasons, life waxing and waning, she'd have some overlap to Nurgle's domain, decay that is. So while most of Isha was slurped up by Slaanesh, those portions were left to Nurgle.

TheLaughingGod
15-12-2010, 11:07
Hellloooooo. My ears are burning!


You see, I survived because I was far too clever for that grumpy old Slaanesh.
Khaine fought valiantly, but foolishly and then he broke! Broke like an old mirror.

All the rest of them were eaten! Yes, eaten! But not old Cegorach. No no no no...


I was too clever. Ho ho ho!

ashendant
15-12-2010, 12:05
It's a myth believed on one, small, unnamed Craftworld (as stated in the Daemon Codex). And given how belief shapes reality based on the number of believers mainly (eg. one Ork can't call the fist of Gork/Mork strike down from the sky, but with enough Orks believe it, it really manifests), a belief of a very, very small minority won't have much impact.

On the other hand, going by the theory I mentioned, it would certainly be possible for Nurgle to possess at least part of Isha's power - as a goddess of fertility, the turn of seasons, life waxing and waning, she'd have some overlap to Nurgle's domain, decay that is. So while most of Isha was slurped up by Slaanesh, those portions were left to Nurgle.

Wasn't Nurgle stated to be the god of life somewhere?

Anyway a craftworld does not have the same power of a single ork...

ForgottenLore
15-12-2010, 16:21
It's a myth believed on one, small, unnamed Craftworld (as stated in the Daemon Codex).

Where in the Demon codex? I looked and couldn't find the reference.

Hendarion
15-12-2010, 16:25
Where in the Demon codex? I looked and couldn't find the reference.
Page 82 - THE CAGED MAIDEN

ForgottenLore
15-12-2010, 16:33
Thanks, didn't see it because I stopped looking once I got to the army list section.

OldMan
16-12-2010, 17:02
A few interesting things i learned here.

My knowledge of harlequin fluff comes from Lexicanum - for good and ill.
It is there i read about Laughing God being called The Fool - and i must say i like the idea, the "title" is adequate for someone who follows trickster god archetype ( Loki, Anansi etc.). The exile version is also very fitting.

Laughing God hiding in webway? Horrible nonsense i hope that this version will never became cannon. Gods are beings of Warp, just like deamons (only "bigger" ). The can't just enter webway, or otherwise DE wouldn't be able to hide there. Besides it would mean:
a) you can meet Cegorath in person in webway.
b) Khorne can enter webway too, once he will finaly lose patience for the little rodents living there. In fact so can Slaneesh.

On the other hand disguised Laughing God personaly appearing to help in crittical situation, and pull out some pranks is really within the archetype.
.






Hellloooooo. My ears are burning!

You see, I survived because I was far too clever for that grumpy old Slaanesh.
Khaine fought valiantly, but foolishly and then he broke! Broke like an old mirror.

All the rest of them were eaten! Yes, eaten! But not old Cegorach. No no no no...
I was too clever. Ho ho ho!

Shut up Fool :D

Hendarion
16-12-2010, 17:08
It is there i read about Laughing God being called The Fool - and i must say i like the idea
I actually don't like that title. Cegorach is not Loki and Cegorach is not a fool either, but quite smart.
I wonder where this title actually comes from. I never heard it before this topic.


Laughing God hiding in webway? Horrible nonsense i hope that this version will never became cannon.
It is canon ever since Harlequins had been mentioned. Therefore it is not nonsense at all.


Gods are beings of Warp, just like deamons (only "bigger" ). The can't just enter webway, or otherwise DE wouldn't be able to hide there.
Cegorach can. Eldar Gods in the past had been summoned to the physical universe to assist the Eldar in battle. Nothing too special. But of course a God will need an entrance to the Webway.


b) Khorne can enter webway too, once he will finaly lose patience for the little rodents living there. In fact so can Slaneesh.
Just the problem remains that only Cegorach knows the labyrinth and the Chaos Gods don't. By your logic demons would not be able to enter the Webway or the physical universe either. We know that both is happening.

Eumerin
16-12-2010, 17:37
I actually don't like that title. Cegorach is not Loki and Cegorach is not a fool either, but quite smart.
I wonder where this title actually comes from. I never heard it before this topic.

Given that much of the Lexicanum info involving Harlequins appears to be bad fan fiction, I'd venture a guess that the idea of Cegorach as a fool comes from a fan who confused traditional harlequins with jesters and then ran with the idea.

OldMan
16-12-2010, 17:40
Being smart is nothing to with being The Fool. Irony of the title aside, fool is different name for a jester/joker ( one of tarot cards is called like that).

And being a jester is also a symbol of being apart of the rest and of wisdom (sceptical, bitter and ironical). I am only not sure if this part of jester's archetype (a sage in a buffon's robes) is recognisable outside my country - if not this my help to get the message http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sta%C5%84czyk

I'll finish later. Must go now.

Hendarion
16-12-2010, 17:44
Well, OldMan, if you'd know, you'd know I'm a canon-hardliner. If no canon fluff is calling him "Fool", then he should not be called "Fool".
I guess here that Eumerin is right. If not, I wonder where it comes from.

OldMan
16-12-2010, 17:51
Just for a while:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cegorach

Is Warhammer 40,000: Compendium (1989), p. 184, Harlequins cannon enough?

Hendarion
16-12-2010, 18:02
Jesus, it's really there. :p

The central figure of Harlequin belief is the Cegorach - the
Great Harlequin, also known as the Great Fool, the First Fool
or the laughing god.
Funny note: "is the Cegorach". Sounds like used as a title not as a name. Interesting, no?

Idaan
16-12-2010, 18:06
Laughing God hiding in webway? Horrible nonsense i hope that this version will never became cannon. Gods are beings of Warp, just like deamons (only "bigger" ). The can't just enter webway, or otherwise DE wouldn't be able to hide there.
But it is canon, and has always been all the way from WD105 to the 4e Eldar Codex. One thing to keep in mind though, is that warp gods aren't just big dudes who live in the warp. They're clouds of sentient emotion and souls, living forms made out of warp energy. So Cegorach hiding in the Webway didn't mean him literally entering a Webway portal. What Kage once brought up was the question of price that a warp entity had to pay to transit into the Materium. For daemons it's sacrifice and limited time. For Khaine it was the split into Avatar. Seemingly, Cegorach paid no price - but it's been proposed that instead of hiding within the Webway, he hid in the Webway's structure, literally merging his essence with the Webway.

Besides it would mean:
a) you can meet Cegorath in person in webway.Again, he's always been the only god you can meet in flesh form - old fluff mentions him masquerading for rank and file Harlequins and in the newest Dark Eldar codex, while in exile, Lady Malys encountered an entity that fit Cegorach's description and received its heart and a sentient sword.

b) Khorne can enter webway too, once he will finaly lose patience for the little rodents living there. In fact so can Slaneesh.
It can't be that easy. Depending on which version you believe, Cegorach was created by the Webway's constructor, is an ascended soul of one of the Webway's constructor or at the very least is worshipped by a race that knows a great deal about the Webway - it makes sense that he had the knowledge to do that, while other gods don't. And regarding Slaanesh, the soul-draining that the Dark Eldar experience is felt in the Webway as well (but less drastically), meaning that Chaos gods exert their influence over the Webway just as well.

OldMan
17-12-2010, 16:23
Given that much of the Lexicanum info involving Harlequins appears to be bad fan fiction, I'd venture a guess that the idea of Cegorach as a fool comes from a fan who confused traditional harlequins with jesters and then ran with the idea.

Because GW themselves, were never truly pure about the difference harlequin/jester, and because in real world some harlequin variants showed not much difference to jester. Laughing God himself has more to do with a jester than actual harlequin and Commedia dell'arte, ( exept of fitting into just one role)


Jesus, it's really there. :p

Funny note: "is the Cegorach". Sounds like used as a title not as a name. Interesting, no?

Mayby just bad english. I didn't know that use of world "the" can make this kind of diffirence. Still, they showed a source there. So is he The Fool after all?


What actually saved Eldar in the webway? I always thought that it's walls are"toughter" then the walls between real world and the warp. It is why the scream of Slaanesh the newborn, which was a psionic scream of enourmous power have not reached there. For the same reason i found the story in DE codex on kidnapped SM sending aid request via telepathy ackwardly illogical. If the webway was enough to screen Eldar from raging warp-energies of the newly born Slaanesh (which were HUGE) it should be more than enough to screen a humble psyker. And deamon in fact DO infest webway, but only in parts it has collapsed due to lack of maintanence.
There is a reason why utilising warp-tunnels is considered safer than traditional warp-flight used by other races.

ForgottenLore
17-12-2010, 17:26
I know this is off track but there is a 3rd LIVING God, err Goddess. the Goddess of Healing(Isha?) is imprissoned by Nurgle to test his plagues on which she heals and he makes worse ones, as he "rescued" her from death at Slaanesh's hands.

Which is discussed in this thread in post#s 4,5,8,10,13,14 and 15. So almost a third of the thread so far has discussed Isha's captivity by Nurgle.

Hendarion
17-12-2010, 18:40
Mayby just bad english. I didn't know that use of world "the" can make this kind of diffirence. Still, they showed a source there. So is he The Fool after all?
Since I have quoted the exact GW material, yes, he indeed is also called The Great Fool.


i found the story in DE codex on kidnapped SM sending aid request via telepathy ackwardly illogical. If the webway was enough to screen Eldar from raging warp-energies of the newly born Slaanesh (which were HUGE) it should be more than enough to screen a humble psyker.
Still the DE also fear psykers inside their city because it might cause infestation.
So I assume that although the Webway does screen full access of demons into it, but it does not block psychic connections. Neither does it block all effects of Slaanesh, as the DE still feel the soul-drain effect.

Kage2020
17-12-2010, 19:05
It is canon ever since Harlequins had been mentioned. Therefore it is not nonsense at all.
I'm terribly sorry to point out that just because something is published doesn't make it inherently good. It is entirely possible that canonical materials are nonsense.


What Kage once brought up was the question of price that a warp entity had to pay to transit into the Materium. For daemons it's sacrifice and limited time. For Khaine it was the split into Avatar. Seemingly, Cegorach paid no price - but it's been proposed that instead of hiding within the Webway, he hid in the Webway's structure, literally merging his essence with the Webway.
As this is fan material it is unlikely going to be accepted by some. :D


Given that much of the Lexicanum info involving Harlequins appears to be bad fan fiction, I'd venture a guess that the idea of Cegorach as a fool comes from a fan who confused traditional harlequins with jesters and then ran with the idea.
Of course, one might also look at the mythology of the "The Fool."

Kage

ErnieTheTermie
17-12-2010, 19:35
Of course, one might also look at the mythology of the "The Fool."


Indeed. :D

Furiosa
19-12-2010, 22:21
Really sorry if I mistook eldar mythology but for eldar gods as I understood it, a peice of the Avatar Khaine rests at the core of every craftworld.
The fool or laughing god was actually a fragment of the c'tan deceiver?
Ynead is growing in power as more eldar/DE/Exodites die, more powerful Ynead get, more farseers of lesser talent start seeing the eldar god of the dead.
Giving birth to one possible prophecy that when all eldar are dead, she will rebirth the race united on a safe world allowing them to be freed from Slaneesh.
Quite possibly wrong... but I enjoy eldar mythology.

Stonerhino
19-12-2010, 22:41
The funny thing with the Laughing God and well Khaine also for that matter. It that their fluff was made different from the other Eldar gods. Even in the earliest writings these two where just different.

Khaine, broke apart rather then being eaten by Slaanesh. We only latter learned that he was currupted by the Nightbringer's necrodermis which may or may not have helped in the forming of the Avatars.

Cegorach, escaped the fall and then ("Centred on the body of lore which has sprung up around the Laughing god"~WD105) has a bunch of fluff "Spring up". Almost like the early writers had plans for "Something" to different about him as well.

I have always found it strang that we are never (As far as I remember) given the Deciever's name in the Eldar tongue. Or even any actual events with "The Deciever" being an enemy of the Eldar Gods. In Eldar mythology.

Drasanil
20-12-2010, 00:26
Honestly I was always partial to Lastie's explination, Slaanesh never ate the eldar gods gods but rather dated them, all of them, at the same time, and they've been hiding in embarassment since. Also the Eye of Terror was created by Vaul mixing pop rocks and coke...

On a more serious note, it's entirely possible the eldar gods aren't actually dead per say, but rather submerged in the Slaanesh Vortex, think of them as minor subservient gods or really really powerfull Greater Deamons bound in service to She who Thirsts. I'm also partial to Isha being held by Nurgle, even if just one craftworld actually believes the legend it doesn't make them wrong, Isha's portfolio has quite a bit more in common with Old Smelly than Slaanesh, so in that sense belief isn't necessarily required, the emotions/concepts still pertaining to Isha's portfolio would still go to her and Nurgle indirectly through her whether people realised it or not.

Hellebore
20-12-2010, 01:35
I have always found it strang that we are never (As far as I remember) given the Deciever's name in the Eldar tongue. Or even any actual events with "The Deciever" being an enemy of the Eldar Gods. In Eldar mythology.

pg 31 of the Necron codex has the eldar refer to Mephet'ran (the necron name for the Deceiver) as the Jackal God. Consider that many of the eldar's mythological figures are animals (albeit ones with power beyond mortal animals), it is no surprise the Deceiver was named after one. Especially as his modus operandi was similar to a jackal; opportunistic, sly, hit and run etc.

Hellebore

Stonerhino
20-12-2010, 01:42
The Jackel God is not in the Eldar Tongue. It's in English, Gothic in 40k. I mean like the Nightbringer is named the "Destroyer of Light" by the Eldar. But in the Eldar Tongue it's "Kaelis RA".

Hellebore
20-12-2010, 01:54
The Jackel God is not in the Eldar Tongue. It's in English, Gothic in 40k. I mean like the Nightbringer is named the "Destroyer of Light" by the Eldar. But in the Eldar Tongue it's "Kaelis RA".

And the Scorpion is the scorpion, the dragon is the dragon, the banshee is the banshee, the hawk is the hawk, the serpent is the serpent, the vyper the vyper, the cobra is the cobra and so on.
The only animal given its name in eldar in any eldar background is Falcon; Faolchu. However, they are all still eldar mythological creatures. They are given their 'gothic' translation so we the reader can understand what they are referring to.

Eldar Guardians and Fire Dragons aren't called that either. Those are the english translations of the terms used.

The Jackal God is what the eldar called the Deceiver, it's just they used the eldar words for Jackal and God to do it. That we don't know what those two words in eldar are makes the Deceiver as significant as every other animal in eldar mythology we only have the english translation for. Which is to say, not very.

Hellebore

Stonerhino
20-12-2010, 03:44
True, but we are not talking about some aspect warrior or piece of equipment. We are talking about one of the Yngir (Eldar name for C'Tan). Not only that but one of the two that are active. It's a little more suspect then not knowing what the Eldar call their tanks.

Hellebore
20-12-2010, 03:49
Or all the animals in their mythic cycles bar the Falcon? We don't know the majority of their mythic cycle names.

I really don't see how not knowing what 'jackal' and 'god' are in eldar changes anything. The Deceiver is called the Jackal God by the eldar.

If the Japanese had a god called the Wolf God, then that's what it's called. Just because the japanese word for wolf is ookami and god is kami doesn't change what the words reference, it changes the sounds you make when referencing them.

Hellebore

Hendarion
20-12-2010, 05:07
The Jackel God is not in the Eldar Tongue. It's in English

And what is this then?


pg 31 of the Necron codex has the eldar refer to Mephet'ran

Doesn't sound like English to me...





The fool or laughing god was actually a fragment of the c'tan deceiver?

No. It is one of the most famous conspiracy theories that the deceiver is Cegorach, but there are as many people believing it as there are challenging/denying it. I for my deny it, since the nature of both is very different and not compatible to each other.
Never heard though that Cegorach shall be a fragment of the deceiver.

Hellebore
20-12-2010, 05:08
That would be the necron name for the Deceiver as I said in the brackets after 'Mephet'ran'...

Hellebore

Stonerhino
20-12-2010, 05:26
Most languages have more then one possible translation for words. Especialy when it's an older language translated into a newer one.

For example old herbew into modern english.

Words have power and even more so when the word is a name.

Hendarion
20-12-2010, 05:27
Aha. Well, actually it's not important. Jackal God is far enough, as we don't know most titles for Eldar-stuff in Eldar tongue, but only in translated English, you gave enough examples.
"Jackal God" is just clear enough as "Laughing God" is too. :)

Stonerhino, we don't even know what "Fire Dragon" or "Striking Scorpion" means or "Vyper Jetbike" or "Jetbike". It is also translation and interpretation. You can interepret them differently, but that won't change the object itself. Why should that be different for the Deceiver?

gitburna
20-12-2010, 13:52
I have a quick question. If 3 eldar gods survived (khaine, cergorach and isha) ...does anyone have a complete list of all those that were destroyed - or became subsumed by Slaanesh? Does such a list even exist?

And what were they the gods of?

ie Kurnous - God of the hunt (and god of feasting)

Vaul - god of the forge /metalworking/craftsmanship

Morai-heg - Goddess of secret knowledge

Asur - some sort of Zeus-like figure

ashendant
20-12-2010, 19:03
I have a quick question. If 3 eldar gods survived (khaine, cergorach and isha) ...does anyone have a complete list of all those that were destroyed - or became subsumed by Slaanesh? Does such a list even exist?

And what were they the gods of?

ie Kurnous - God of the hunt (and god of feasting)

Vaul - god of the forge /metalworking/craftsmanship

Morai-heg - Goddess of secret knowledge

Asur - some sort of Zeus-like figure
i think it's
Asuryan-the Phoenix king and god of wisdom
Kurnous-the god of the hunt and desire
Vaul-the god of artifice
Lileath-the maiden, goddess of joy, dreams and innocence
Morai-heg-the crone, goddess of foresight, fate and souls

Idaan
20-12-2010, 19:25
And Gea, the goddess of nobody knows what that was nevertheless mentioned in the WD127 as one of the Eldar gods.

With her, we get an Ennead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ennead) though it would be hard to pair them all to their Egyptian counterparts.
I'd say Asuryan - Atum, Osiris - Morai-Heg, Isis-Isha, Set-Khaine (what with him being opposed to other gods, but needed to defeat the primordial enemy, Apops).

FarseerMatt
22-12-2010, 09:55
A list of all the ones I've heard of, with a couple of abstractions. I've given Eldar versions of the names where I can.

THE GODS

Asuryan, the Phoenix King, ruler of the gods.
Cegorach, the Laughing God, god of the Harlequins.
Gea, goddess of the earth, companion to both Asuryan and Khaine
Isha, goddess of life, birth, and the harvest.
Khaine, the Bloody Handed god, brother of Asuryan, god of war.
Kurnous, the Hunter, consort of Isha, god of the wilds, rangers, and hunters.
Lileath, the Maiden, goddess of dreams and of good fortune.
Lhilitu, Consort of the Void, Lileath’s dark sister.
Morai-Heg, the Crow Lady, bride of Khaine, goddess of wisdom and death.
Vaul, the Smith, god of artifice and the forge.
Ynnead, god of the dead.

THE MINOR GODS

Alean, the steed of Khaine
Tokath, the Scorpion, a creation of Khaine

The Suin-Mure, the Banshees, the daughters of Morai-Heg
Hekatii, the Red Crone (banshee?)
Qa’leh, Mistress of Blades (banshee?)

Endobai, the eagle of heaven, companion of Cegorach
Novas-Ikan, the Great Hawk, the marker of guilt, companion of Kurnous
Faolchu, the bringer of justice, bride of Novas-Ikan
Falcon and Hawk, the messengers, two (apparently different from the above) birds mentioned in an Eldar fable about rivalry
Xxxx, the Raven, friend of Ulthanesh

Saim, the Serpent, keeper of secret knowledge
Xxxx, the Cobra, warlike brother of Saim
Shaimesh, treacherous younger brother of Saim and Cobra (companion of Lhilitu)

Kaelis Ra, the Destroyer of Light, one of the Yngir
Mephet’ran, the Jackal, one of the Yngir
Khamus, the Outsider, one of the Yngir
Xxxx, the Dragon, one of the Yngir

Idaan
22-12-2010, 12:10
Where did you get the Eldar names for Scorpion, Banshee, Eagle and Great Hawk? And where did the bird "dynasty" come from?

Edit: Reia-Hal is one of the Craftworlds canonised in the Medusa V campaign, isn't it?

Iracundus
22-12-2010, 12:12
Indeed, cite your sources precisely please.

FarseerMatt
22-12-2010, 14:13
Where did you get the Eldar names for Scorpion, Banshee, Eagle and Great Hawk?

They are straight translations from David Donachie's Eldar dictionary (http://www.teuton.org/~stranger/index.php?action=cms.english_eldar), which collates most of the official Eldar words and phrases put out by GW over the years.

Endobai is not a direct translation of "eagle", but a companion of the Laughing God mentioned in Citadel Journal 17.


And where did the bird "dynasty" come from?

Oops, ignore that bit :D Meant to remove that when I copy-pasted it. That's a non-canon speculation based on the story from the chapter "Rivalry" in Path of the Warrior.

EDIT - Above post corrected.

Iracundus
22-12-2010, 19:23
They are straight translations from David Donachie's Eldar dictionary (http://www.teuton.org/~stranger/index.php?action=cms.english_eldar), which collates most of the official Eldar words and phrases put out by GW over the years.


It is not a straight collation but also includes his attempt to create the Eldar language. Unfortunately it is not clearly stated where and when it is a direct GW sourced reproduction and when it is his own invention.

TheLaughingGod
22-12-2010, 19:29
It is not a straight collation but also includes his attempt to create the Eldar language. Unfortunately it is not clearly stated where and when it is a direct GW sourced reproduction and when it is his own invention.

Having actually spent a long time speculating about the Eldar language, I can say that his collation and extrapolations are about as close to canon as you can find. In nearly every case the only thing he does is attempt to break down words into their components and recombine them to create new terms.

It's crude, but I think it's effective and accurate.

Iracundus
22-12-2010, 19:38
Having actually spent a long time speculating about the Eldar language, I can say that his collation and extrapolations are about as close to canon as you can find. In nearly every case the only thing he does is attempt to break down words into their components and recombine them to create new terms.


I am aware of what he does and he started this quite a few editions ago. However things such as:

http://www.teuton.org/~stranger/index.php?action=cms.eldar_guide

are clearly his own inventions where he creates these three "moods" linked to the three moons of the Eldar homeworld. His constructions of the words in that dictionary are all done through this paradigm. However impressive it may be, this is still effectively "fan fiction" except where he reproduces verbatim the GW given words, and it isn't clear in that dictionary which of those words are verbatim reproductions and which are his own inventions or deductions.

Idaan
22-12-2010, 19:40
It might have been close to canon five years ago, and the majority of the vocabulary is taken from Ian Watson's novels who ported them directly from Gaelic IIRC. It's lacking, for instance, the word "ynnea-" connotated with death and darkness that the Dark Eldar codex introduced. And the entirety looks and sounds more like some stilted version of Gaelic really, rather than the refined and ritualised ancient language, emitting an aura of subtle power, steeped in myth and metaphore. Not that I'm demeaning the author's effort, but you can't argue that it's up-to-date anymore.

EDIT: The three states were definitely a cool thing though. Very in-character and relatively alien for a European reader.

Stonerhino
22-12-2010, 22:05
I have always viewed the Eldar language as speaking to the senses and not using abstract thought like english.

Which is why Kaelis Ra which we are told in the Necron codex means "Destroyer of light" can have different possible translations. For example in "Birth of Fear" we are told that the word Kaelis also means "The notion of death" and Ra can possibly mean "Soul, spirirt or ghost".

I used a little Bing fu and found this Abstract vs. concrete thought. (http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/12_thought.html) Which describes it better then I can. Even if it's Hebrew vs Greek instead of English/Gothic vs Eldar