PDA

View Full Version : was Sanguinius stupid?



Lord_Sanguinius
29-05-2005, 09:04
I was thinking this over and i thought it was sort of dumb for the primarch of the blood angels to sacrifice himself when he could've avoided it. If he can see the future and he saw his fate if he fought horus why didnt he just wait for the Emporer to come? then they could slay horus together and the Emporer wouldnt have been crippled or needed the golden throne and Sanguinius would be alive instead of cursing his own chapter by the black rage which is from the memory of his death. anyone agree? :mad:

Brimstone
29-05-2005, 09:14
Not really Sanguinius saw his death would allow the Emperor to slay Horus and accepted his fate without complaint.

He held true to his vision of the future until the end.

first_founding
29-05-2005, 09:53
Yeh, I don't think he was.
I mean he probably saved the Emperor from death.

Incognito
29-05-2005, 10:10
This poll needs a third option...

3) Sanguinius was a fraud. All Hail Ollanius Pius!

EDIT: Though, for clarity's sake, most Ollanius Pius devotees (myself included) believe that his encounter with Horus and the Emperor happened in some attempt by the forces of Chaos to breach the Imperial Palace itself...And the Sanguinius sacrifice came after Horus lured the Emperor onto his battle barge after failing that.

Brimstone
29-05-2005, 10:17
This poll needs a third option...

3) Sanguinius was a fraud. All Hail Ollanius Pius!
.

Not going to happen and if I see any more Pius spam I'll treat it as I would any spam. :mad:

malika
29-05-2005, 11:05
What is this whole thing about Ollanius Pius, I mean why is it considered spam? Wasnt it old official background material?

Brimstone
29-05-2005, 11:46
What is this whole thing about Ollanius Pius, I mean why is it considered spam? Wasnt it old official background material?

Yes and I have no objections to it been discussed in a thread of its own, I was the one who mentioned it on Portent in the first place.

However it's long outdated and everytime people try to discuss the heresy someone comes along and starts to hijack threads into a discussion on the subject and I'm not having that.

TheSonOfAbbadon
29-05-2005, 11:53
I'm probably the only person on here who doesn't know who Ollanius Pius was...

But many space marines [mainly the blood angels] still believe that Sanguinus weakened Horus for the Emperor. I think Horus and the Emperor were perfectly matched so if Sanguinus hadn't weakened Horus then both Horus and the Emperor would have died.

Fulgrim's Gimp
29-05-2005, 12:44
I think that the prescience of Sanguinius and the Emperor didn't show them what was about to happen. I would think Sanguinius was sufficiently clued up to see that the events could lead to only two outcomes for him , death or turning to Chaos and so trying to defeat Horus and ultimately death was the only realistic choice he had.

Adept
29-05-2005, 16:41
Sanguinius internal monologue may have run as follows:

Option one - Attack Horus now. I die, the Emperor is mortally wounded and entombed alive for the rest of eternity, and the Imperium never reaches it's full potential, and instead falls into decay. On the plus side, Horus dies.

Option two - Attack Horus in tandem with the Emperor. I live, the Emperor lives, the Imperium goes on to span the entire galaxy, reaching hitherto unthought of levels of sophistication, the rebellion is ended, and Horus still dies.

Hmmm...

salty
29-05-2005, 18:05
Come on, Sanguinius only saw part of the future, the bit where he had to face Horus and would die. He also surmised that this would aid the Emperor.

Plus, NONE of the Primarchs knew that they would be separated from teh Emperor as the teleported up to the Battle Barge. How could they, none of them foresaw it? And, as they were scattered to various points of the ship, they had no way of knowing where and when to meet the Emperor.

As such, Sanguinius' was a noble and honourable sacrifice in the name of humanity. He had foreseen his death, and so knew that it was his destiny. So to speak.

Salty :)

Kahadras
29-05-2005, 18:21
Sanguinius is belived to have known that he would face Horus and that Horus would try to corrupt him and turn him from the Emperor. Sanguinius refused to join Horus despite knowing that he would certainly be slain by the fallen Primarch if he did not side with him. Its the ultimate test of faith facing an evil that you know you cannot win against. It can be compared to such stories as Jesus in the Garden of Bethsemany (sp?). He refused to flee even though he knew Judas had sold him out because he had to die for a greater cause (the salvation of humanity). If Sanguinius could see the future then he knew that he HAD to face Horus and die in order to give the Emperor the motervation to kill Horus (who he viewed as a favorite son). By his death Sanguinius demonstrated to the Emperor how far Horus had fallen and allowed the Emperor to strike down his favorite son.

Kahadras

Dakkagor
29-05-2005, 18:47
Maybe that layer of emotional protection that Horus had was the reason he was invulnerable to the emperor, and in dying, sanguinus opened up that "chink in his armour, through which the emperor was able to strike the final blow", by making Horus look like the git he had become.

Flame Boy
29-05-2005, 18:55
I had never considered it like that before, Dakkagor, but that's a very interesting interpretation of the Blood Angel canon regarding Sanguinius' self-sacrifice, that the chink in Horus' armour was not a physical blow, but was one of the final turning points to tell the Emperor that Horus must be destroyed as a betrayer and now a kin-slayer.

I also think that being scattered across Horus' battlebarge would make it more tha a bit tricky to wait for the Emperor, as he would have no idea how to navigate a daemon-warped capatial ship. It's not like there's going to be a sign pointing to "bridge section", "Horus' private squash court" or "This way to climactic final battle" in a place where the walls are twisted into hideous marine-munching daemonic matter.

TheSonOfAbbadon
29-05-2005, 19:35
Option two - Attack Horus in tandem with the Emperor. I live, the Emperor lives, the Imperium goes on to span the entire galaxy, reaching hitherto unthought of levels of sophistication, the rebellion is ended, and Horus still dies.

Oh yes, he could have really chosen where he teleported to. And he could really hide, dodge and run from a souped-up chaostic primarch who matches the Emperor himself in power.

Flame Boy
29-05-2005, 20:08
Oh yes, he could have really chosen where he teleported to. And he could really hide, dodge and run from a souped-up chaostic primarch who matches the Emperor himself in power.


...And still have enough time for a good cup of tea, naturally.

I think "option 2" is a little far-fetched. Oh well. Maybe if the Emperor and Sanguinius held hands in the teleport chamber they wouldn't have split up? :wtf: Behold the power of my illogical train of thought! ;)

McGonigle
29-05-2005, 21:00
There are always more than two options

Option 3) Make a deal with Horus and betray the Emperor at a key point in the last battle. Emperor dies, Horus lives, Chaos rull the galaxy, and you are not just alive but on the winning side.

Option 4) Hide to the end of the final battle then finish of the victor.

Option 5) Get into a conversation with Horus and have a chat about the 'Good old days'

Option 6) Commit suicide just to prove that there is no such thing as fate

I think that is strong evidence as to why I should never become a Primarch

Slazton
29-05-2005, 21:10
Lets be fair here. The best Farseers cannot accurately see the future. They can see events and they can only see what they are allowed to see.

Also there is no such thing as fate in 40K, its just glimpses of what could happen.

See the entire Star Wars collection for this (if you can stomach Episodes 1-3) evidence of what 'visions of the future' would be like.

The Primarch only saw his role. He knew he would die, but alas, he went for it as he knew there was no other way. It was either die loyal to the Emperor, or betray everything he had ever knew.

I personally do not beleive he saw that his sacrafice would weaken Horus. I believe he just went to his Death because he was the Angel.

At McG: Personally option 6 would have suited the pretty boy ;)

Barbarossa
29-05-2005, 21:12
Bah, Sanguinius gambled and lost. He figured that he could take Horus down with the +1I and +1S from his 'furious assault' plus the extra attack from charging. Too bad the dice were against him.

Flame Boy
29-05-2005, 21:50
Curse Horus and his 1+ Invulnerable save. Bad guys always cheat. ;)

Oh no, I may not have the procognitive powers of the Blood Angel Primarch... but I can see this topic is on the way to veering off-topic... *winces*

angelspast
30-05-2005, 00:31
Sanguinius could forsee the future, it's quite likely he knew he was going to his death.

He sacrificed himself for humanity

neXus6
30-05-2005, 00:53
Valiant and Heroic sacrifice, but most likly not intentional.
Sure he would have "liked" to have joined the emperor and taken Horus on in a handicap match, but unfortunatly it was not to be. So he did the best he could under the circumstances.
I wouldn't accept any vision of the future telling me I was going to die. But if I was naturally heroic I'd fight rather than leg it. :p

Rabid Bunny 666
30-05-2005, 01:03
Sanguinius internal monologue may have run as follows:

Option one - Attack Horus now. I die, the Emperor is mortally wounded and entombed alive for the rest of eternity, and the Imperium never reaches it's full potential, and instead falls into decay. On the plus side, Horus dies.

Option two - Attack Horus in tandem with the Emperor. I live, the Emperor lives, the Imperium goes on to span the entire galaxy, reaching hitherto unthought of levels of sophistication, the rebellion is ended, and Horus still dies.

Hmmm...


but horus waited until only he was alone with the emperor

Xhalax
30-05-2005, 01:05
Option 4) Hide to the end of the final battle then finish of the victor.


That option was already taken. Jonhson had his name scratched onto that option.

I always find it strange that telling the furture is something that is difficult to do at the best of times and easily misinterpreted. So maybe Sanguinius was wrong. Maybe it was a portent of what was meant to be changed rather than what was. After all, why look into the future if not to change it if you don't like what you see?

But over all I think he did the right thing and wasn't stupid at all. The only stupid thing Sanguinius did was getting conned by Horus into going to Signus...where he got slapped around quite a bit by a Daemon.

neXus6
30-05-2005, 01:27
The powers of chaos "granting" Sanguinius the ability to see his own death...it just back fired with the whole seeing how far he (Horus) had fallen, "chink," thing.

EmperorsChamp01
30-05-2005, 12:20
Well I think that Sangunius did the Honarable thing a fought Horus. He could Have layed down his sword and joined sided with Horus like the other primarchs. "panseys". But he didnt. He went and fought him like a man eventhough he knew that Horus Riviled the Emperor Himself. Death Before Dishonor what I always say. Well If Dorn was there he would have kicked Horus's ****. Maybe he had a vision that a primarch was going to die but he didnt know which one.

Asher
30-05-2005, 12:59
That option was already taken. Jonhson had his name scratched onto that option.


Offense! :eek: :p
As fluff goes, Johnson had a big heavy concrete block (named Russ) on his leg, that slowed him down significantly, so he couldn't be at terra on time. The concrete block was anoxious to free every unimportant peasant world that fell to chaos thus taking a lot of time.

As for Sanguinius, I doubt he had a choice. Even there were various possibilities open for him, as betraying the Emperor or runnig away, the fact that he was who he was, namely one of the most beloved sons of the Emperor and a honorable man, made him not consider such opitons.

Cloudscape_online
30-05-2005, 13:06
'Prescience' abilities unfortunately can't be abused. They show you what must be done in order to achieve your highest goal. I'm guessing Sanguinius' highest goal was the protection of humanity at any cost. His prescience showed him exactly what had to be done. *In order for Horus to be defeated, his armour must become so badly damaged that it offers him no protection.* Horus was going to try and kill the Emperor regardless of what Sanguinus did.

If the Emperor was slain in combat, the Imperium would have folded, so the only option was to attack Horus and guarantee that the Emperor had a greater chance of success. To a certain degree, in those last desperate minutes Sanguinius may have become a sociopath allowing nothing to prevent him from his ultimate goal. He knew his duty and responsibilities were greater than just his own life and the future of his chapter. the future of the entire human race depended on him doing what he knew he had to do. What's one superhuman life in comparison to the *Billion to the power of Billion* lives at stake? Nothing.

The pestilent 1
30-05-2005, 17:15
im under the impression that Sanguinious' form of prescience was like the eldar (but far less powerful) showing but one Possibility.
Sanguinious knew that Horus' power rivaled even the emperors, but prehaps he saw somthing in his vision, prehaps he saw the blow that damaged Horus, prehaps he figured this would give the emperor the edge (which, as we know, did)

Sanguinious went knowing he would probably die, but he went none-the less as a true servant of the emperor.
the sanguin lord is the saviour of the imperium, nuff said.

and this is from a heretical Chaos player :p

EmperorsChamp01
30-05-2005, 22:26
What if He pulled like the Obi Wan Kenobi in the Fourth Movie. Because Isnt the Emperor a Pskyer to a point. Maybe Sangunisis New that the emperor whould be able to absorb his soul and that would make Him stronger. Or Maybe If Sangunies Killed Horus the emperor would think he was also bad and try to kill him Because Hie did Kill his Favroite Son.

Hell's Angel
30-05-2005, 23:39
Um... How about no, scott!

Lordmonkey
31-05-2005, 03:35
HERO of the war. Sharp teeth n'all.

Sikkukkut
31-05-2005, 04:47
Maybe that layer of emotional protection that Horus had was the reason he was invulnerable to the emperor, and in dying, sanguinus opened up that "chink in his armour, through which the emperor was able to strike the final blow", by making Horus look like the git he had become.

Now this is a cool theory - that the "chink in the armour" reference was emotional rather than literal. Nifty interpretation that can satisfy both sides of the argument over the veracity of that bit of the account. Nice work. I'm repping you for this :)

Bmaxwell
31-05-2005, 11:36
it was a cacth 22 but i think that the way horus and the empoer fought that sangius would have just been vaporized on the spot cause it was close to 2 gods fighting when those guys came togther

Sai-Lauren
31-05-2005, 11:45
im under the impression that Sanguinious' form of prescience was like the eldar (but far less powerful) showing but one Possibility.

As was once said, "The Future is not set, there is no fate but that which we make for ourselves". ;)

That's kind of m view of it as well. Both he and Curze had the gift of precognition, but wheras Curze accepted his fate and did all he could to make it happen (moody goths :p ) , Sanguinus saw it as a possible fate, and did all he could to make sure it didn't happen, but made sure that if he did go out that way, he'd make his death worthwhile.

Oliver
31-05-2005, 13:22
He knew that he was going to have to die one way or another so why not die doing something worth wile such as helping the Emperor defeat Horus. It was a very valiant act and without him going to attack Horus the revolution could have ended very differently.

rune
13-06-2006, 12:35
Besides, the entire fluff of the Blood Angels and all their descended branches of Space Marines would be changed, or gone, if this wasn't written up in the storyline in this manner.

In essence, Sanginius the character was not only a martyr for the Emperor, but also a martyr for the true success of use and popularity of the Blood Angels Space Marines, as used on the tabletops across the world, by thousands of players, who likewise, admire his sacrifice. This draws them to the chapter.

Without this, without his death at the hand of Horus, im sorry, but the blood angels would probably be some no-name chaos remnant chapter hiding out in the eye of terror, mentioned ... oh about.. once every 20 warhammer 40k publications in the fluff, with about 1 picture of them in paint ever printed in any 40k chaos marines book, of all the editions.

Get my drift?

rune
13-06-2006, 12:37
But I still think Dark Angels in Landspeeders and on Hogs kick more butt!!

rune
13-06-2006, 12:46
it was a cacth 22 but i think that the way horus and the empoer fought that sangius would have just been vaporized on the spot cause it was close to 2 gods fighting when those guys came togther

I completely disagree on the over-glorification of Horus and, regretably, the Emperor as well. While the Emperor was godly in so many ways, he was only the best human(at birth) in single combat probably in the Universe.

Horus was not as good, and until the powers of Chaos increased his ability, the Emperor could've whooped him. Hell, Sanginius may have whooped him. Before he switched to Chaos he was not that much stronger than the other Prmarchs.

The Chaos increased him. But even still, Sanginius was able to confront him in single combat, and even inflict a wound to Horus if im not mistaken, in the fight. Clearly this shows he was a capable fighter of wounding Horus. Not a gimp that would be blown away by the sheer force of the colliding Emperor and Horus in single combat, like say, that Ollenius Pius guy, ROFLMAO..

Inquisitor Maul
13-06-2006, 13:11
Didn't Horus simply strangle Sanguinius? :eyebrow:

Typheron
14-06-2006, 13:35
it should also be noted at this point the activities of Sanguinius before teleporting onto the home turf of Horus.

He had just fought the fight for the eternity gate, as well as the general days of fighting arround the palace. Gone one on one with a Bloodthirster, took a beating then broke its back over his knee.

He was not really at his peak. Not that even if he was Horus would still have killed him, i mean its a primarch boosted by all 4 chaos gods, thats hardcore.

But yes, he got (to use a gaming term) pwnd by Horus (strangled and generally beat up badly).

I belive that he knew what was coming and that in doing so opened said emotional chink whihc would allow the emperor to kill horus (in one of the stories it mentions the emperor looking at all the death horus had caused in the room and realising that he was truly lost).

Nobile sacrafice.

Dio´Ra
14-06-2006, 13:58
he did what he was suppose to do...serve the emperor....allthough in the end our emperor is nothing more then a living corpse...atleast what he did was not stupid in any way.....let the emperor die would surely made him a traitor in the eyes of teh others....

Typheron
14-06-2006, 14:14
that and would probably have resulted of the destruction of the imperium and accendance of chaos in the galaxy. Not a good outcome.

Zzarchov
14-06-2006, 14:17
Im gonna chipe in the possibility here: Ever think that Sanguinius had no idea about his death and that bit to the myth was added later? While there probably was a battle on the barge, the power of the individuals involved and their actions will be greatly exagerated.

Think of it as the legend of the Battle of Troy, mixed in with story of Moses and Jesus, run through an oppressive autocratic regime based on lies and secrecy at all levels, for double the length of current human history and scattered across a million isolated worlds.

Typheron
14-06-2006, 14:19
the problem with that is we have at least one account of the incident written from the PoV of both sanginious and the Emperor, although its slightly older fluff.

Pilgrim
14-06-2006, 14:32
Didn't Horus simply strangle Sanguinius? :eyebrow:

Depending on which account you believe, yes he did. I prefer it that way, rather than having another epic duel between the two of them. Remember that Sanguinius was exhausted already, and was brought directly to Horus' command centre during the teleport. He wasn't ready for battle (at least, not ready for immediate combat).

The exact quote eludes my memory, and I don't feel up to looking for it, but it went more or less "Horus strangled him with his bare hands, before the altar the Dark Gods had gifted to him".

In essence, what appears to have happened is that Sanguinius never recovered from the wounds he had suffered during the siege (which is fair enough, given that they had only been inflicted hours or days earlier). he went with the Emperor both because of his visions, and because of his iron loyalty and sense of duty.
He was then seperated from everyone else during the teleport and arrived on Horus' bridge. At this point the two seem to have talked, although neither seriously expected any result I would have imagined. Horus essentially made his attempt to corrupt Sanguinius, while Sanguinius likely appealed to Horus to end the rebellion, more for the sake of it than anything else (ie: as a mere formality on both sides). Upon the predictable refusals the two almost certainly briefly fought (with emphasis on the briefly. I can't see the fight lasting longer than a couple of minutes, if that. It is much more likely to have been a token, one-sided affair from the start)

Given Sanguinius' condition and Horus' daemonically enhanced abilities, the Angel of Baal would have been overwhelmed quickly. This seems to be the case, with him ending up disarmed, thus enabling Horus to finish him off. The strangling was simply Horus' last act of hatred and contempt against sanguinius. It was refusing to grant a quick death, thus emphasising the enmity between the two (after all, you would have to hate someone severely to deliberately make them suffer).

Adrian

Some guy (UK)
14-06-2006, 18:39
AFAICR, the Emperor wouldn't have even been mortally wounded, if he had realised sooner that there was no way of horus turning back to what he was- I.e. a loyal servant of the Emperor. The Emperor let Horus strike him many times, before he worked out his once trusted luitenent was gone. But history is history as they say.

Edit: as for the Blood Angels Primarch, we as has been said, he was utterly spent before comming onboard the battlebarge- never mind all the daemons he had to face onboard- so, even if he had waited for the Emperor, he would have either:

a) Died whilst attempting to tag team Horus alongside the Emperor (or some other tactic of killing him- e.g both at once).

B) Died fighting some sort of daemon there

C) Done nothing and lived.

There was a piece of fluff- IICR it goes: 'Sanguinius, even at the height of his strength, would have been no match for the evil Warmaster.'

Later, Some Guy

darknar
14-06-2006, 20:52
if Ferrus Manus was there and his iron hand then all of this emperor and the angel dieing would never of happend. bah its all horus falt for sending us out as far fluged into the uneverse. wait a sec thats the same horus Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

*repalce right hand with bionic attachment.


oh if anyone read horus rising then they would of noticed that horus nearly got a scratch marking of 2 "emporers" in total. ;)

inq.serge
14-06-2006, 20:55
only ******* dies for things they like and believe in, real men kills for things they like and believe in.

Khaine's Messenger
14-06-2006, 21:28
The essense of the Sanguinius story is the passion and emotional involvement that went into it, which is why the Imperium milks it so much for propaganda purposes. Yeah, it was pretty darn stupid, especially for one of the Emperor's sons, one of the most consumate warriors that had ever lived (read: overrated), but...I really don't think I'd have the heart to fault him for it. In most "war"-ish movies, this is the scene where the young idiot screams "nooooooo!" with tears streaking down his cheeks and disappears in a cloud of debris as an artillery shell vaporizes him. And depending on how the lead-in went, you might just be crying yourself, not clinically analyze it for the proper course of action.

Chem-Dog
14-06-2006, 22:25
Maybe that layer of emotional protection that Horus had was the reason he was invulnerable to the emperor, and in dying, sanguinus opened up that "chink in his armour, through which the emperor was able to strike the final blow", by making Horus look like the git he had become.

Exactly what I was going to say, read the stuff about Horus and Sanguinius in Horus Rising, they are brothers in every sense and are extremely fond of one another. Now read the short story Bill King wrote covering the final battle between Horus and The Emperor. . .
"Driven by all the force of his rage and pain and hatred the Emperor wills Horus's death. He senses the forces of Chaos retreat, disengaging themselves from their pawn. As they do so sanity returns to the Warmaster. The Emperor sees realisation of the atrocities he has committed flicker across Horus' face. Tears glisten there."

CrimsonTider
14-06-2006, 22:59
The Angel was certainly not stupid, but rather heroic in every sense of the word. He went knowingly to his doom, sacraficing himself to allow the Emperor and humanity to survive.

I like the emotional chink thing, it resonates well with my core!

However, if the ravings of the Blood Angels who succumb to the Black Rage can be believed, when they relive the last moments fo tehri beloved primarch they often talk for long periods about travelling through the daemonic battle barge, battling daemons and the ship itself before confronting Horus. And then, The Angel attacked, though he was weak, wounded, and certainly doomed, he swept forward to play his part, rather than contend with eternal damnation.

GodofWarTx
15-06-2006, 09:02
Originally Posted by Dakkagor
Maybe that layer of emotional protection that Horus had was the reason he was invulnerable to the emperor, and in dying, sanguinus opened up that "chink in his armour, through which the emperor was able to strike the final blow", by making Horus look like the git he had become.

Brilliant and insightful.

Sanguinius didnt just fight a bloodthirster, he did it to Angroth (spelling) the unbound's grandpappy, the Lord of all Bloodthirsters. Allegedly, by the "legends" surrounding the heresy, he was up in the sky the entire battle , challenging champions of chaos to battle over and over, im sure reflecting back onto his chops getting busted at Signus.

The stories i have read about the showdown says that even before Horus's ascension as the champion of chaos, he could not be defeated in combat, but still, he could not defeat Sanguinius blade to blade, but it seems Horus wasnt putting his all into it as he demonstrated to Sanguinius what REAL power was, and thats when he unleashed his awesome psychic powers, completely obliterating Sanguinius psyche. I can imagine Horus giving Sangiunius a Darth Vaderesque Force Choke.

I also remember reading that Sanguinius knew of his betrayal and death by Horus's hand right before the heresy, even sitting at dinner with his fellow brother primarchs, toasting them, a clear reference to the Last Supper and the story of Jesus and Judas. I think its an incredibly heroic to know of your own demise by your own kin, and face your destiny and therefore allow Horus to be defeated. Perhaps retreat was never in the cards, and perhaps fate was against him. As we all know, the prime chaos powers are not the only major entities in the warp....

Escaflowne_Z
17-06-2006, 01:04
The events that take place on the Battle Barge of Horus have been retold quite a few times. Koyote from the B & C posted this thread listing pretty much all of them.

http://bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=85961

Icarus
17-06-2006, 04:29
Definately valiant and heroic. Sanguinius was everything a Primarch should be, loyal and pure to the end!