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Mozzamanx
15-12-2010, 18:09
Ello,

something occured to me last night, regarding our favourite space barbarians. For whatever reason, I was thinking about the number of Marines active, and I realised just how unbelievably tiny the Space Wolves actually are.

The line of thinking was something like:

- There are 1000 Chapters, each one containing 1000 Marines. Therefore about 1million Astartes alive and kicking for the Loyalists.
- Ultramarines and successors take up about 60% of those Chapters, so 600,000 Marines are Ultramarine genestock. That leaves 400,000 for the other 8 Loyalist Legions.

- That gives around 50,000 per Legion. Of course some will be bigger than others: Salamanders and Raven Guard are likely smaller after Istvaan, while the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and White Scars would have been mauled during the Siege of Terra. (I know it was a while ago, but recruitment is slow and it may still be having an effect.)

- Going off the Codex, it says that Ragnar commands the second largest Great Company, at just under 200 warriors. With only 12 Companies, there cannot be any more than 3000 Space Wolves roaming today.



Where the hell have the other ~40,000 Space Wolves gone? They have no Succesor Chapters, so its not like they are rolled up in other Chapters, nor have there been any crushing defeats that would claim so many lives.
I appreciate that the Wolves were always a smaller Legion, but seriously? Outnumbered 20:1 by the average Legion?


I'm going to assume Games Workshop just cocked up the numbers again, but I found it amusing.

MarshalFaust
15-12-2010, 18:40
I was actually thinking this same thing the other day reading the Horus Heresy artbooks. there is some inconsistency between the numbers of legions pre-heresy and their numbers at the beginning of the second founding.

take the ultramarines for instance. its been stated that they were the largest legion numbering over 250,000 marines at the start of the heresy. at the time of the second founding after the heresy they split into 20 chapters of 1000 marines each. thats only 20,000 marines. so apparently they lost 230,000 marines during the heresy wars? thats an astounding rate of casualties that they really should not have been able to recover from.

its the same with all of the other loyalist legions especially ones like dark angels and blood angels who did not split into very many chapters. which means they only had 5-6 thousand marines left after the heresy?

Its why i think he 1000 per chapter is way too small and unrealistic. it would make much more sense if chapters were 10,000 strong. i seriously wouldn't mind it if GW retconed this in future codexes.

spetswalshe
15-12-2010, 18:46
It was probably an attrition thing. Space Marines don't live forever, and almost all of them will have been KIA before they hit their second century. It's highly likely that the burgeoning mass of non-compliant ex-Legion Wolves will have just plain died out by now. They do have a tendency to go out and do their own thing; any defeat capable of taking out a Great Company, especially one of the many that roam way out of fellow-Wolf backup range (I'm guessing most Wolves have quite a pioneering attitude, scattering themselves towards battles far from the Fang, because quite simply that territory is as protected as it could possibly be already) will leave their geneseed irrecoverable. Their independent attitude would make things much more risky for them than a by-the-book Call-Us-When-You-Get-There-Or-I'm-Calling-The-Police-And-If-I-Catch-You-With-That-Williams-Boy-From-The-Estate-So-Help-Me-God-I'll-Ground-You-Until-You're-Thirty Chapter.

Or, more likely, no one has thought this through yet. Maybe they'll have a couple of transport ships lost in the warp as an epilogue after the Heresy series is over, or they're forced to take the lead in the aftermath on account of how they didn't attend the big party and everyone else has the war equivalent of a massive hangover (or, in the case of the Dark Angels, they've woken up in bed with an absolute monster and have to make it home without clothes after scarpering out the bathroom window). Or they just won't notice.

Hrw-Amen
15-12-2010, 19:15
I suspect that in a 'real world' scenario after everything is added up that nearly every chapter, (unless they have had a disaster of some sort.) has well over 1000 marines, even the Ultramarines.

It could just be a propoganda thing, something to sound cool for Astartes recruiters to use, an easy number for Imperial citizens to remember. In truth it could be a lot more.

aka_mythos
15-12-2010, 19:17
There are supposedly 1000 chapters, with 1000 marines... thats 1 Million Marines. Between the loyalist Legions the Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Ravenguard were smashed and ended the war with few numbers. Those chapter's second founding probably came largely from the Neophytes being trained at the end of the war... or in the case of Ravenguard, the Space Sharks were the beastial abomniations and failed science experiment of their Primarch. The Raven Guard also managed to churn out another 2 other chapters. The Salamanders had none. The Iron Hands also had 2. So where there were 3 legions, there were 8 Chapters.

The Blood Angels and Dark Angels each had 5 and 3 respectively. The White Scars and Imperial Fists, 3 and 2... with one of the two Imperial Fist successors being the Black Templars with 6000 marines. The space wolves had only 1 counted.

Then there is the Grey Knights who have no primarch, were a seond founding chapter numbering 3000. Their existance implys the Emperor left some other means of producing space marines... that maybe wasn't as efficient or generally more demanding.

The assumption alot of people make is that the founding of Chapters was an immediate break down of Legions into Chapters. There isn't anything really written about the 3rd through 12th Foundings. The process would have to have been a gradual step down of the Legions into Chapters to ensure each Chapter was autonomous and self sufficient, with enough vehicles, veterans, and specialists. Fortresses Monastaries would then have to be built for each and fleets distrubted. Imagine immediately after the 2nd founding the Ultramarines had 230,000 (give or take) marines and 20 chapters... after the 3rd founding having 210,000 marines and 40 chapters... all the way till the 12th founding when they would have been 230 progentior Chapters and the Ultramarines. The first 12 foundings occured within a 4000 year time span, or approximately one founding every 333 years... hmm maybe some secret numerology... but given Imperial beauracracy and the great distances, this doesn't seem unreasonable. Thats relatively rapidly compared to the later foundings... implying either marine production rate was higher or they were coming from else where.

The fluff also says that the different successor chapters named are only the ones accounted for that other may have existed with no record of their heredity left. So even on face value the fluff can be read to say those 20 Ultramarines are only the most significant.

CasaHouse
15-12-2010, 19:44
@aka_mythos

The fists had 3 second founding chapters. You forgot the Soul Drinkers.

DragonManlol
15-12-2010, 20:07
Maybe the space wolves are being quiet about their actual numbers or the 13th company is used as an excuse to hide the space wolves. That or Russ had alot of space wolves go in the warp with him.

massey
15-12-2010, 20:19
Right. I figure that the initial second founding chapters were probably larger than 1000 marines. So let's say there's 50,000 Dark Angels after everything shakes out, and they split off into 3 "second founding" chapters plus the original. That's like 12,500 marines each. As time goes on, additional splits occur, high casualty rates take their toll, a 3rd founding chapter is destroyed by orbital bombardment, etc.

The "million space marines for a million worlds" thing is an often quoted number, but not even GW pretends that it's even close to accurate. And it certainly wouldn't have been accurate back in the immediate post-Heresy days. Those numbers would have been in flux for quite some time afterwards.

Fingol23
15-12-2010, 20:24
Also normal chapters are larger than 1000 marines if they are at full strength, for instance a full company has 106 marines in it (10 squads of 10, a comand squad of 5 and a captain) and you then have all the drivers, chaplins, librarians and honour guard to factor in.

Col. Tartleton
15-12-2010, 20:24
I think they should be looser with the numbers.

Each chapter should be 10,000 marines as suggested and they should play looser with the thousand chapters thing. Then to put things into perspective Black Templars are around 60,000 marines which would actually put them in "Legion" category which is what they're often referred to as.

The Horus Heresy used to have legions of like 10,000. Now they're like 50-100,000 thanks to a (wonderful) retcon at peak so I think it would be safe to bump up the chapters to 10,000 at peak with casualties reducing them greatly.

1,000 marines requires a huge marine support staff which makes them 1.5-2 thousand marines. Realistically the "1000 Marines" is Based on the idea that you have 9 companies of ~105 marines plus ~5 marines in the 10th company for the command squad. That's ~950 marines but it doesn't count anything else. No scouts, no drivers, no pilots, no crews, to techmarines, no supernumerary officers, no lieutenants (I miss those), or apothecaries, librarians, or their retinues. I mean there's evidence suggesting there are a number of marines apprenticed to Chaplains, Librarians, and such who aren't scouts or something. Scouts would realistically be well over 100 scouts. That's absurd. Scouts (as in neophyte types) would be vastly inferior to Marines and even marines seem to have enormous casualties.

It's sort of like how they have this fluff where some planets have trillions of inhabitants and other worlds are so small two 10,000 man regiments is considered an invasion force. 20,000 men couldn't attack Rhode Island successfully :angel:.

2 million? Okay now at least you're talking a large country. Occupiers to occupees should be better than 1:75 probably closer to 1:30 for police state crackdown 40k style brutality. So if a trillion man hiveworld is in full rebellion you're looking at hundreds of millions to force it back into the fold. A few hundred ten thousand man guard regiments is laughable. A few hundred chapters? Okay now we're getting some Battle for Armageddon on.

Armageddon should theoretically have hundreds of billions of people and have been attacked by billions of orks. But those sorts of numbers are hard to fathom for the average child. A kid hear's a thousand and that's a lot. A million is an unimaginable number. A Billion? That's how we measure the planet's population. 100 Trillion like on Holy Terra? Well now you're just making things up.

Eumerin
15-12-2010, 21:22
They have no Succesor Chapters

Actually, that's not true. It's just that the successors aren't around anymore...

The Space Wolves had one Successor Chapter - The Wolf Brothers. Things... didn't work out... with the Wolf Brothers. Apparently there were unexpected complications with the geneseed and the Wulfen Curse, and the chapter no longer exists.

As for the rest of the missing marines...

The Wolves are VERY independently minded, and highly aggressive. I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few of the Wolves decided to take a page from the Templars' stylebook and head on out into the unknown on their own - but without the official sanction of the Chapter. That would kill two birds with one stone. From the viewpoint of Terra, the "official" strength of the Chapter would be reduced to roughly Codex level. And simultaneously, it would avoid the necessity of going to war with a primarch that everyone knew was unshakeably loyal to the Emperor and independently-minded enough to tell the new leadership stick their heads where the sun doesn't shine if they wanted to push the issue (particularly now that the Emperor was more or less out of the picture).

So instead, various great companies of Wolves could head out into the vast unknown, dealing with various issues in a still very troubled Imperium, but simultaneously not getting the full strength and support of the Chapter/Legion. It could also represent the start of the tradition of Great Companies heading off on their own that exists today.

Of course, the last two paragraphs are entirely speculative.

Bonzai
15-12-2010, 21:37
Also keep in mind all the rigerous trials a perspective wolf has to go through. Attrition on recruits has to be really high.

Then if you read 1k Sons, then it seemed like the sons of Magnus gave as well as they got, inflicting terrible losses.

grayghost
15-12-2010, 21:59
And the numbers are all BS anyway. The Black Templar have their unaccounted Crusades, Codex Chapters like the Ultramarines have far more then 1000 dudes when you include specialists like Chaplains and Librarians, some Chapters are regularly understrength and so on. I'm of the belief that there are many, MANY more Chapters then just 1000, and most of those would possess numbers in excess of 1000 apiece.

That, and underreporting numbers just sounds like something an insular organization like the Adeptus Astartes would do anyway.

Vaktathi
15-12-2010, 23:22
Between high variable Legion numbers depending on source, casualties during the Heresy and subsequent Scouring, and general huge lack of reduction in Imperium supplied support to Astartes chapters following the heresy (demanding they be self sufficient), it's not hard to see how there may only be a couple thousand SW's down from tens of thousands. No chapter has the resources they once did as a Legion, even those that resisted the Codex, they simply cannot support such numbers, and the huge casualties of the Heresy, Scouring, and subsequent ten thousand years of warfare (something I think many people don't quite grasp, that's more than twice as long as the oldest of the Great Pyramids of Giza have existed...) it's not hard to see where the SM chapters today have such few numbers.

Goosey_J
15-12-2010, 23:26
@aka_mythos

The fists had 3 second founding chapters. You forgot the Soul Drinkers.

The Soul Drinkers can **** right off. Since there is no mention of them in any other fluff except for Ben Counter's abysmal 'Soul Drinkers' series, I put them in the same line as 'badly written fan fluff'.

Also the Soul Drinkers won't be around much longer if the books are anything to go by. And thank god for that.

TheLaughingGod
15-12-2010, 23:33
The Soul Drinkers can **** right off. Since there is no mention of them in any other fluff except for Ben Counter's abysmal 'Soul Drinkers' series, I put them in the same line as 'badly written fan fluff'.

Also the Soul Drinkers won't be around much longer if the books are anything to go by. And thank god for that.

Amen.

QFT

Nazguire
16-12-2010, 02:17
The splitting of the Legions wouldnt' have happened over night. It wouldn't be a 24 hour switch to divide up a 200+ year old institution. Considering the Space Wolves weren't that large to begin with (Just over 10,000+, as opposed to the tens of thousands that the other Legions were) it's not hard to imagine them whittling down over the years to a regular sized Chapter (Sort of...:shifty: ) over a few years after splitting the Wolf Brothers off.

Homeworlds have to be found for the Legions, Marines assigned to certain companies, officers selected, fleet assets handed over or constructed, etc. It wouldn't have happened over night, regardless how large the Ultramarines Legion and other less mauled Legions were (ie Dark Angels, Iron Hands [They lost their First Company and Primarch, but not much else according to all the background we have on them during the HH at the moment] )

Lord_Crull
16-12-2010, 02:40
The Soul Drinkers can **** right off. Since there is no mention of them in any other fluff except for Ben Counter's abysmal 'Soul Drinkers' series, I put them in the same line as 'badly written fan fluff'.

Also the Soul Drinkers won't be around much longer if the books are anything to go by. And thank god for that.

Actually the Soul Drinkers where mentioned very briefly in the Second Ediiton Sisters of Battle Codex, but it literally was just a name drop.

Sir_Turalyon
16-12-2010, 02:49
The progeny of other Legions expand and multiply, giving over handful of their gene-seed to found new chapters which are brought up in strength, found new chapters, find more worlds to recruit from, found new chapters and so on. Space Wolves progeny is constrained to being a single chapter recruiting from single world.

bound for glory
16-12-2010, 04:51
all the hate for the soul drinkers! i liked the books. i kinda hope the series end with the soul drinkers some how escaping and kicking some 'fists butts!

Nazguire
16-12-2010, 05:04
all the hate for the soul drinkers! i liked the books. i kinda hope the series end with the soul drinkers some how escaping and kicking some 'fists butts!

No, you really don't. It'd be quite in keeping with 40k if the Soul Drinkers were all killed in captivity and their records expunged from Imperial history.

We can only hope.


The series had such great potential. Unfortunately, a few wrong turns in the plots stopped this.

shadowhawk2008
16-12-2010, 11:10
No, you really don't. It'd be quite in keeping with 40k if the Soul Drinkers were all killed in captivity and their records expunged from Imperial history.

We can only hope.


The series had such great potential. Unfortunately, a few wrong turns in the plots stopped this.

indeed we can hope.

On another note BL has announced the battle of the fang as a space marine battles book, focusing on 1k sons and the wolves after the heresy. should shed some light on things.

MasterGideon
16-12-2010, 14:31
I think even Codex: Space Wolves doesnt shed any light on the exact numbers of the Great Companies, As for their missing numbers could the fact space wolves get killed taking on the biggest and baddest things with spoons just to prove their honour and to gain glory! lol

MasterGideon

FlashGordon
16-12-2010, 23:17
The Soul Drinkers can **** right off. Since there is no mention of them in any other fluff except for Ben Counter's abysmal 'Soul Drinkers' series, I put them in the same line as 'badly written fan fluff'.

Also the Soul Drinkers won't be around much longer if the books are anything to go by. And thank god for that.

The Soul Drinkers books are really good written. Give them another chance. And also the Souldrinkers could be around for much longer if the books are anything to go by(i doubt you read them all since you "hate" them).

ChaosTicket
17-12-2010, 18:09
I think the main thing was that the Horus Heresy went on for an indefinate time, so during that the Loyalists were mauled, and afterwards the Codex Astartes came saying they could only have so much, mainly only 1 homeworld to recruit from or several feral or primitive worlds, like Blood Ravens and dark Angels for chapter without homes.

As previously stated, the Space Wolves, no longer having more than one recruiting world eventually died down simply from attrition outpacing recruitment until it became as it is now.

Other than mutation, what happened to the Sons of Russ 2nd fouding chapter?
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The Codex Asartes isnt actually iron clad, as chapters recruit continuosly, not until they reach 1000. Scout companies regularly have 50-200. Some chapters would have extra companies to accomidate the Initiate Marines, like a White(?) Lions in the 3rd Armageddon war had 12 companies.

Eumerin
17-12-2010, 19:58
I think even Codex: Space Wolves doesnt shed any light on the exact numbers of the Great Companies, As for their missing numbers could the fact space wolves get killed taking on the biggest and baddest things with spoons just to prove their honour and to gain glory!

iirc, it's indicated that the company lost in the Eye of Terror - the 13th - was the final Great Company. That suggests 12 Great Companies maintained as the status quo.


Other than mutation, what happened to the Sons of Russ 2nd fouding chapter?

We don't know. It's indicated that the Wolf Brothers had some problems, but the exact nature of those problems as well as the final fate of the chapter are unrevealed.

Though given what happened to the 13th Company in the Eye, coupled with the typical Imperium attitude toward anything unusual, I don't imagine that it's too hard to guess.

KharnTheBetrayer01
18-12-2010, 00:36
They killed the world of the most physically attuned chapter ever to exist. A chapter that went on to exist within the warp, the place where as a psyker you either go insane, or become incredibly powerful. And the leader of that Chapter is still alive and well, within that warp.

Given the Spaces Wolves refusal to talk about their shames (See the Dark Eldar Codex and "The thieves of the Ice Mist" 616.M39), I don't think its any surprise that there's been no mention of any great losses, but if you had to guess where most of those numbers went, wouldn't your bet be that it had something to do with that admittedly diminished chapter of psychically charged space-knights out for revenge?

Though of course another solution is that Leman Russ took the Vast Majority of the CHapter with him on the Great hunt, or else a great many went after him and haven't been seen since.

I prefer the idea that Magnus has been tracking them down one by one and exploding their heads... but each to their own.

Eumerin
18-12-2010, 02:51
Eh...

The psychically charged space knights are probably too busy scheming against each other and trying to figure out what Tzeentch is really up to (answer - he's not; all he cares about is the scheming) to worry about the Space Wolves.

Or rather, what's left of the psychically charged space knights, seeing as how the majority of them got turned into automatons locked in their power armor.

ryng_sting
18-12-2010, 15:32
The SW codex states they were never a very large legion even before the wars of the Horus Heresy and the Scouring. Throw in Russ's somewhat headlong approach to warfare and willingness to run up large casualties, and it makes sense.

TheRedAngel
19-12-2010, 08:39
Actually the Soul Drinkers where mentioned very briefly in the Second Ediiton Sisters of Battle Codex, but it literally was just a name drop.More or less the same happens in the Codex:Black Templars.
They are mentioned as having fought on Terra against Vandires forces.

ODINM4
19-12-2010, 19:11
i think the great companys that travel too far away from fenris just stay out in the void killing xenos and chaos scum ,resupply at the nearest forge world remeber they dont really like warp travel so there could be a hundred or so great companys plying the sea of stars light years away from fenris one day when russ returns the wolves will hit the come home button and then you will see the wolves back up to legion strength rally at fenris ready for the end days

Lord_Crull
19-12-2010, 19:29
i think the great companys that travel too far away from fenris just stay out in the void killing xenos and chaos scum ,resupply at the nearest forge world remeber they dont really like warp travel so there could be a hundred or so great companys plying the sea of stars light years away from fenris one day when russ returns the wolves will hit the come home button and then you will see the wolves back up to legion strength rally at fenris ready for the end days

Except those Great companies can't really resupply. When the Lost Companies go rogue their Wolf Priests and Iron Priests (Who are apart of the Great Wolf's Company) don't go. It's not quite as simple as stopping at the nearest forgeworld, who makes the new Astartes and where do they get the new geneseed from if they have no Wolf Priests or specialists?

I can't really see Great Companies last long.

Pontiff
19-12-2010, 19:32
Surley the case is that the Space Wolf legion have *no named successor chaptors by GW*, simply meaning that there might be hundreds of succesor chaptors they just havent mentioned them yet?

I'm not up to dae with space wolf mythos so i may have misunderstood this. But i'd have thought that given that there are over 1000 chapters and we've probably got less than half of these with their neme officially in print that there could by all means be 250 space wolf based chapters they havent got round to naming yet?

ODINM4
19-12-2010, 19:48
Except those Great companies can't really resupply. When the Lost Companies go rogue their Wolf Priests and Iron Priests (Who are apart of the Great Wolf's Company) don't go. It's not quite as simple as stopping at the nearest forgeworld, who makes the new Astartes and where do they get the new geneseed from if they have no Wolf Priests or specialists?

I can't really see Great Companies last long.

resuppling arms not marines :shifty:

Lord_Crull
19-12-2010, 19:49
resuppling arms not marines :shifty:

Arms and equipment are useless if you don't have the Marines to use them.;)

nagash66
19-12-2010, 19:57
Where has it ever said that the rune priests and rune priests dont go along with great companys that go off on their own.

Not rogue ones, but ones that leave for valid reasons, like a quest, dispute with great wolf etc etc.

We don't know what happens to them or what support they get before they leave, for all we know a battlebarge with full great company and support elements is out there doing there thing and making new ones on board as we know they can.

ODINM4
19-12-2010, 20:00
im not talking about rouge companys ,but companys that would rather stay out on ofensives ops till they need to go back ,ie

The second way in which a Company becomes lost is by choice. This seems strange to some in the Imperium but to the Space Wolves it can be a matter of pragmatism of a difference of interests with the Chapters current Great Wolf. At times a Great Company will find itself so far afield that return to the Fang would take years, if not decades, or a Warp Storm might block any hope of return and in these cases some Lords choose to forgo any attempt at a return and simply soldier on, campaigning until the last Space Wolf falls. At other times a Wolf Lord may have a fundamental disagreement with the Chapters current Great Wolf and rather than continue in his service will opt to take those warriors and vessels loyal to him and leave to fight the enemies of the Emperor in whatever way he chooses fit until his warriors strength is expended.

Vaktathi
19-12-2010, 20:03
Except those Great companies can't really resupply. When the Lost Companies go rogue their Wolf Priests and Iron Priests (Who are apart of the Great Wolf's Company) don't go. It's not quite as simple as stopping at the nearest forgeworld, who makes the new Astartes and where do they get the new geneseed from if they have no Wolf Priests or specialists?

I can't really see Great Companies last long.

Where is this in the fluff that they don't go renegade as well? They may be part of the Great Wolf's company, but they live and fight alongside whomever they are attached to, and how exactly are they just going to leave amongst a band of rogues?

Lord_Crull
19-12-2010, 20:21
Where is this in the fluff that they don't go renegade as well? They may be part of the Great Wolf's company, but they live and fight alongside whomever they are attached to, and how exactly are they just going to leave amongst a band of rogues?

Because they are sworn to the Great Wolf personally as their Wolf Lord and hold loyalty to him first. As I recall from the original article it's only Wolf Lords who go rogue.

Sparowl
19-12-2010, 21:05
First off: GW's canon isn't canon. They admit that they just make up unrealistic numbers and then contradict themselves later. So how many marines are wandering around? Changes from author to author.

The Soul Drinkers: having read the books, I do my best to ignore them. Any marine who doesn't instantly kill a librarian that spouts extra legs and is mutating randomly apparently has been tainted already. Which means those marines (and the rest of the chapter that goes rogue) needs to be cleansed.

Dorn would have killed them himself, then gone on to figure out which of his dumbshit brothers spawned that chapter, cause it certainly isn't his children. Personally, I blame guillamen. He claims most of the successor chapters in the galaxy, I'll lump the Soul Drinkers in with them.

Vaktathi
19-12-2010, 21:23
Because they are sworn to the Great Wolf personally as their Wolf Lord and hold loyalty to him first. As I recall from the original article it's only Wolf Lords who go rogue.
It's hard to believe if all their comrades in arms decide to go off on their own, that they're just gonna be like "cya later", and somehow just be let off with transport to go on their merry way. While I agree that rogue companies won't have great support, to think that they just are going to let critical support elements walk away, or that leaving is even an option (if the great company is travelling in a strike cruiser, where are they going to go if they commandeer a thunderhawk without FTL?) seems highly silly.

ODINM4
19-12-2010, 21:38
going rouge isnt going traitor either going rogue may just mean lines of communication are lost so they keep on killing enimies till there are no more then they go and find more to beat on

Lord_Crull
19-12-2010, 21:59
It's hard to believe if all their comrades in arms decide to go off on their own, that they're just gonna be like "cya later", and somehow just be let off with transport to go on their merry way. While I agree that rogue companies won't have great support, to think that they just are going to let critical support elements walk away, or that leaving is even an option (if the great company is travelling in a strike cruiser, where are they going to go if they commandeer a thunderhawk without FTL?) seems highly silly.

Well their comrades in arms are not really that Great Company. Their comrades in arms are in the Great Wolf's Company. I find it hard to believe that individuals liek the Wolf Priests and Iron Priests, who are well versed in the Chapter's being and are apart of their own brotherhood respectfully, would go with the rest of the Great Company.


going rouge isnt going traitor either going rogue may just mean lines of communication are lost so they keep on killing enimies till there are no more then they go and find more to beat on

Actually no, the original Space Wolf article talks about Wolf Lords renouncing their oaths of loyalty to the Great Wolf (But not to Russ) and striking off on their own.)


Dorn would have killed them himself, then gone on to figure out which of his dumbshit brothers spawned that chapter, cause it certainly isn't his children. Personally, I blame guillamen. He claims most of the successor chapters in the galaxy, I'll lump the Soul Drinkers in with them.

They are most definitely Dorn's children. The soulspear worked on them, it only works on Dorn's children.

ChaosTicket
19-12-2010, 22:24
The soulspear is one of the biggest pieces of S&^% made by GW. Why? Because its an Imperial Weapon that creates Point Singularities, which includes the ability to kill daemon-princes (as per the first volume). Dorn could have killed any other Primarch in one move, yet never got any during the Siege(Angron was charging towards everything, so why wouldnt Dorn be able to confront him?). He even had to promoted Sigismund as the first Emperor's Champion during the siege to fight the chaos champions.

The Souldrinkers are themselves as questionable cannon, as its known about the 2nd founding Imperial Fists, and the Souldrinkers are just added, but only within the novels.

Even Considering they were expunged in the 2nd novel, doesnt explain why years before they were introduced they werent there either.
------------------------------------------------
The Space Wolves have weird double standards, like using technology, but not using drop pods, jump packs, and other things(Smart Wolves keep their feet on the ground), hating sorcerors, yet having psykers, etc.

shadowhawk2008
20-12-2010, 04:26
A lot of the Primarchs went around wielding pretty powerful weapons during the Great Crusade.

Russ had his Spear and the sword Mjalnar, Dorn had the Fist of Dorn and Soulspear, Sanguinius had the Spear of Telesto, Mortarion had the Lantern, Ferrus and Fulgrim gave each other pretty powerful weapons as well. Yet we don't hear much about those weapons in the Siege or at any time during the Crusade/Heresy other than passing references.

It means nothing. New fluff sometimes contradicts old fluff. Just accept it.

The Thirty
20-12-2010, 06:22
Prospero.. Prospero.. :( /rocks back and forth slowly

ChaosTicket
20-12-2010, 07:31
no no no IT CREATED SMALL BLACK HOLES, not just a master crafted weapon or rare weapon like Mortarion's Lantern/Plasma Handcannon but something that could tear the leg off a Titan.

The Inevitable One
20-12-2010, 07:45
I think that, although the Space Wolves retain much of their former Legion, it was ultimately split up into chapters to serve the 'greater good' of the Imperium. The only known Space Wolves successor chapter is the Wolf Brothers, which was subsequently disbanded due to genetic mutations (i.e. Wulfen). Though there are also other chapter that have ties, perhaps coincidental ones, with the Space Wolves.

Example: Skyrar's Dark Wolves...


were first sighted in the Fenris Sector


use dark grey, light blue and red iconography


are close combat oriented


Another one with the coincidental association by name would be the Emperor's Wolves.

The 13th Company, being one of the thirteen original companies in the Space Wolves, would have set the Legion back a good bit since the went into the Eye of Terror with Leman Russ. So that leaves you 12 Great Companies to be split into smaller chapters and not to mention those who were injured and killed during the Horus Heresy.

ChaosTicket
20-12-2010, 09:32
Not Every "wolf" chapter would be related to the Space Wolves. Mainly the Space wolves arent considered as loyal or a stable to make more chapters.

The Space Wolves have been enemies of the administratum and Ecclesiarchy since at least the First Armageddon War when they sterilised the entire surviving population(plus Guard) then worked them until death.

Even the Base Space Wolves are mutants(which means they were in a castle of glass when attacking the Thousand Sons), the Wulfen are just the worst.

shadowhawk2008
20-12-2010, 10:03
Not Every "wolf" chapter would be related to the Space Wolves. Mainly the Space wolves arent considered as loyal or a stable to make more chapters.

The Space Wolves have been enemies of the administratum and Ecclesiarchy since at least the First Armageddon War when they sterilised the entire surviving population(plus Guard) then worked them until death.

Even the Base Space Wolves are mutants(which means they were in a castle of glass when attacking the Thousand Sons), the Wulfen are just the worst.

Uh ok... someone seems to have a major hate for the Space Wolves.

Points of clarification:

1. The Space Wolves are one of the most loyal chapters out there. It is only that their gene-seed is not as stable as that of either the Fists, the Ultramarines, Dark Angels, etc that they don't (presumably) have successors as the High Lords prefer ones with more stable genetic lines. And if Magnus' ideas in A Thousand Sons can be taken seriously (he was a heretic eventually after all) then the Canis Helix is part of the genetic code for all life on Fenris, even the warrior-tribes.

And you are mistaking a fiercely independent Chapter for a not-so loyal one. They have served alongside several proud and loyal Chapters such as the Ultramarines and Grey Knights and so on and have a very old and honourable battle record.

2. They are not enemies of the Administratum or the Ecclesiarchy.
Although they had won, the victorious Armageddon soldiers were doomed from the start. They had gained knowledge of the existence of Chaos, and been exposed to its corruption. The Inquisition had all of the people who fought on the planet, except for the Space Marines, sterilized and placed in work camps, with their world being re-colonized by people from other regions of space with no knowledge of the war. Logan Grimnar battled long and hard to prevent this, but he failed and has never forgiven the Imperium for doing what Chaos had failed to. He saw it as betraying the people who had honorably fought for their homes and for the Imperium.

3. It was no castle of glass. The Wolves were one of the most ferocious and assault-y legions of the time, not to mention having a personal feud against the Thousand Sons. Remember, they were not meant to attack and destroy Magnus' legion but bring him back to Terra for an accounting. Horus intercepted Russ on the way to Prospero and told him some rather unflattering truths about what Magnus had done and told him Magnus should be destroyed. The Wolves didn't care for mutation (they are ones to talk!) but they cared about the threat of psyker-warriors such as those of the Thousand Sons who the Emperor had decreed were to be disbanded and.

FlashGordon
20-12-2010, 10:30
The Souldrinkers are themselves as questionable cannon, as its known about the 2nd founding Imperial Fists, and the Souldrinkers are just added, but only within the novels.

Even Considering they were expunged in the 2nd novel, doesnt explain why years before they were introduced they werent there either.
.

Yes they where read earlier posts before commenting stuff you do not know about.:rolleyes:

ChaosTicket
20-12-2010, 10:44
the "castle of glass" refers to the fact that the "dont throw stones in glass houses" because the Space Wolves are one of the most mutant chapters, yet are unquestionably loyal to the EMPEROR, not the corrupt Imperium as it exists now.

I did mix the Ecclesiarchy with Inquisition, although the Ecclesiarchy wouldnt be friends, as the Space Wolves actually fought with the Emperor, so know he ISNT a God, along with the other first foundings. Most chapters dont believe the Ecclesiarchy, and the Space Wolves know that they are outright WRONG.

The Wolves' Loyalty isnt in Question, as they follow the Emperor well. I dont know the complete view that Russ had of the Emperor, but he wasnt disloyal.

shadowhawk2008
20-12-2010, 11:08
the "castle of glass" refers to the fact that the "dont throw stones in glass houses" because the Space Wolves are one of the most mutant chapters, yet are unquestionably loyal to the EMPEROR, not the corrupt Imperium as it exists now.

I did mix the Ecclesiarchy with Inquisition, although the Ecclesiarchy wouldnt be friends, as the Space Wolves actually fought with the Emperor, so know he ISNT a God, along with the other first foundings. Most chapters dont believe the Ecclesiarchy, and the Space Wolves know that they are outright WRONG.

The Wolves' Loyalty isnt in Question, as they follow the Emperor well. I dont know the complete view that Russ had of the Emperor, but he wasnt disloyal.

I fail to see what you are arguing about then. The Soul Drinkers are, according to Sarpedon their Chapter Master, fighting for the Emperor not the Imperium. Are they loyal or disloyal?

I assume that most,if not all, of the First Founding Chapters and the Second Founding Successors believe the Emperor to be the greatest human ever to have lived and is not a god. But that hardly matters to the Astartes as a whole. Those who believe he is humanity's true god worship him as they do. Those who believe he is the greatest superhuman individual worship him as they do.

Even the Space Wolves, who as you say know that the Emperor was a man and not a god, have shrines within their monastery dedicated to the Emperor.
There are three private chapels dedicated to Leman Russ, The Emperor Deified and The Emperor Oracular within the Fang's Reclusiam.

Simo429
20-12-2010, 11:58
Maybe they read Prospero Burns and realised that Space Wolves just arent cool and quit?

Drakon
20-12-2010, 18:44
If I remember right the codex has some fluff about all companies being wiped out bar one and the wolves having to recover from that.

Many great companies have gone on crusades into the warp to find Russ also.

The one thing I can't get over is the low body count chapter and the length of time it takes to create an astartes. Add in how quickly the seem to die in books and I'm surprised they aren't all running at half strength

Vaktathi
20-12-2010, 19:15
The one thing I can't get over is the low body count chapter and the length of time it takes to create an astartes. Add in how quickly the seem to die in books and I'm surprised they aren't all running at half strength

SM fluff in general doesn't make sense when you add it all up. Too few taking too long to train with constant casualties trying to be meaningful when defending an empire where there's maybe one for each planet. :p

Eumerin
20-12-2010, 19:49
1. The Space Wolves are one of the most loyal chapters out there. It is only that their gene-seed is not as stable as that of either the Fists, the Ultramarines, Dark Angels, etc that they don't (presumably) have successors as the High Lords prefer ones with more stable genetic lines. And if Magnus' ideas in A Thousand Sons can be taken seriously (he was a heretic eventually after all) then the Canis Helix is part of the genetic code for all life on Fenris, even the warrior-tribes.

The Wolves are loyal to the Emperor. The rest of the Imperium leadership can go stick their heads in the sand for all the Wolves care. The Wolves can and have disregarded directives from the Imperium when they felt it appropriate. But the fact that the Wolves are unshakeably loyal to the Emperor, coupled with the fact that they're one of the best loved chapters by the general populace means that the leadership of the Imperium won't move against them (and quietly let any lower-ranking idiots who attempt to move against the Wolves humiliate themselves).


Surley the case is that the Space Wolf legion have *no named successor chaptors by GW*, simply meaning that there might be hundreds of succesor chaptors they just havent mentioned them yet?

No. GW lore is quite specific - there was exactly one successor chapter, which was called the 'Wolf Brothers'. But something went wrong and the chapter doesn't exist anymore. So the Imperium no longer creates new chapters using Space Wolf geneseed.

Lazy ninja
20-12-2010, 20:30
The SW's relations are strained with the ecclesiarchy; they dont worship the emperor just like most other chapters, and revere the emperor as the mightiest of warriors and leader of mankind, the one who defeated russ rather than a divine being.

On topic, the wolves were said to be one of the smallest first founding legions, then you have to factor in the losses incurred from being one of the most active legions in the great crusade alongside the DAs, the losses sustained on Prospero, the loss of Russ and the abandonment of accelerated zygote harvesting methods, the creation of the Wolf brothers, the loss of the 13th company, the fact that a number of marines will be off at some point doing the Great Hunt, the fact that the cannis helix means many aspirates never complete the transformation into a full space marine and instead become feral Wolfen or worse, thus a smaller percentage of aspirants make it. The fact Fenris is a deathworld, i mean a lot of chapter homeworlds are, but explains why theirs not as many available aspirants as on say Macragge, although tougher people as a result. And finally the fact that the idea is that the Ultramarines geneseed is slowly homogenising the space marines, with the other primarch's scions dying out

ElfSpeaker
20-12-2010, 21:47
I can't remember where I read this but I believe that after the heresy, the geneseed screening protocols became much more strict. This reduced both the amount of viable geneseed and the potential recruits for each chapter even from the same recruitment pool.

Now, my theory on Space Wolves geneseed...

Pre-heresy Terran Space Wolves were created directly by the emperor using geneseed derived from Russ. When Fenris was rediscovered, the same geneseed was used. The Fenrisian geneseed was somehow altered by whatever unique genetic properties are/were present on the planet causing it to be unstable when used on recruits from other worlds, hence no viable successor chapters.

Also, I think a large number of Space Wolves followed Russ when he disappeared, further thinning their numbers.

I once though (and still think it's a cool idea) that each Great Company was the size of a standard chapter but that was dispelled by the current Codex listing the number of Ragnars company.

Nazguire
21-12-2010, 02:17
I'll say again, that the splitting of the Chapters after the Heresy didn't happen over night (rather, couldn't happen overnight, given the size of the Legions and the Imperium). Straight after the Heresy (which concludes at the end of the Siege of Terra) the Space Wolves would have been occupied securing the Imperium, which thins their numbers more.

Contrary to the pro-Ultramarines slant of the new Codex, they weren't the only Legion/Chapter doing things to secure the Imperium after the Horus Heresy.

Then you have the Great Hunt as others mentioned, as well as many leaving with Russ, and the foundation of the Wolf Brothers etc. It's not hard to work out where they all went.

shadowhawk2008
21-12-2010, 05:03
I can't remember where I read this but I believe that after the heresy, the geneseed screening protocols became much more strict. This reduced both the amount of viable geneseed and the potential recruits for each chapter even from the same recruitment pool.
this is mentioned in Codex: Space Marines I believe.


Now, my theory on Space Wolves geneseed...

Pre-heresy Terran Space Wolves were created directly by the emperor using geneseed derived from Russ. When Fenris was rediscovered, the same geneseed was used. The Fenrisian geneseed was somehow altered by whatever unique genetic properties are/were present on the planet causing it to be unstable when used on recruits from other worlds, hence no viable successor chapters.

Currently no fluff suggests that the Space Wolves used worlds other than Fenris during the Great Crusade to recruit aspirants. Russ considered Fenris his home and I doubt that somehow he would be willing to recruit from worlds other than his home for his legion. Not to mention that the Canis Helix, as mentioned in A Thousand Sons, is part of the genetic makeup of all life on Fenris and it incidentally is crucial to turn aspirants into not just Space Marines but Space Wolves.


Also, I think a large number of Space Wolves followed Russ when he disappeared, further thinning their numbers.

I once though (and still think it's a cool idea) that each Great Company was the size of a standard chapter but that was dispelled by the current Codex listing the number of Ragnars company.

Most of them did disappear with Russ and each Great Company at one time may well have been at least the size of a modern-day Chapter if not more. The Wolves like to break the rules so Ragnar and Grimnar, as well as some of the other Wolf Lords having more than the required amount of warriors in their Companies is acceptable.

ChaosTicket
21-12-2010, 06:20
All the First founding legions were formed BEFORE their primarchs were even found, using left over geneseed and Terran recruits. The Dark Angels were the first chapter formed but it was decades before Lion El'Jonson was found, while Horus was the first Primarch found his legion wasnt the first, nor did he because Primarch of any legion made from another's geneseed.

IF the Space Wolves didnt recruit from any place but Fenris, then their legion size would have been nowhere near Legion standards, as Fenris already has a low population being a deathworld.

But that does ask a question. Is the canis Helix carried by only life native to fenris, or also by Russ' geneseed? The Thousand Sons novel contradicts established cannon saying that All Fenrisian life has the Canis Helix, while previously it was the Geneseed that gave it, which made sense as the Wulfen are Astartes, so the Astartes transformation caused it.

shadowhawk2008
21-12-2010, 06:37
IF the Space Wolves didnt recruit from any place but Fenris, then their legion size would have been nowhere near Legion standards, as Fenris already has a low population being a deathworld.

Feral worlds are recorded to have populations anywhere from 100k to 5 million people. Death worlds are recorded to have populations anywhere from 1000 to 15 million. Find it hard to believe that such worlds cannot supply a pre-Heresy Astartes Legion with at 10,000-100,000 warriors.

Source is the 3rd Ed. 40K rulebook.


But that does ask a question. Is the canis Helix carried by only life native to fenris, or also by Russ' geneseed? The Thousand Sons novel contradicts established cannon saying that All Fenrisian life has the Canis Helix, while previously it was the Geneseed that gave it, which made sense as the Wulfen are Astartes, so the Astartes transformation caused it.

Russ grew up on Fenris since he was a child. He was 'fed' by a she-wolf and for all the years he was there he absorbed the native genetic code so to speak and was exposed to whatever air-borne genetic strains and what not from the planet. It could be that he simply ended up absorbing the Canis Helix.

As far as I know we don't know if the Space Wolves Legion prior to meeting its primarch had any Wulfen among its numbers or if they had canine-ish teeth or whether they had any other mutations.

ChaosTicket
21-12-2010, 07:13
Here think of that population when you need to replace around 100-1000 Space Wolves per year, over 50-100 years, and still have a viable genepool.

Oh and I really dont think that you can genetically alter someone by breastfeeding, or by breathing the air, if the alterations were in the genetic code of the lifeforms, not an airborn pathogen. If they could then anyone could go to fenris, turn into super mutants and then leave.

shadowhawk2008
21-12-2010, 07:47
Here think of that population when you need to replace around 100-1000 Space Wolves per year, over 50-100 years, and still have a viable genepool.

Oh and I really dont think that you can genetically alter someone by breastfeeding, or by breathing the air, if the alterations were in the genetic code of the lifeforms, not an airborn pathogen. If they could then anyone could go to fenris, turn into super mutants and then leave.

Right...

Point 1: 100-1000 wolves a year... say they gotta find about 500-5000 aspirants a year. Over a period of about 150 years that would be 75-750k aspirants that need to be recruited for that period of time.

And who says that they are constantly recruiting more warriors? Maybe they go for 10 years on a campaign and loose a thousand warriors. Come back to the Fang where there are about say 300 Blood Claws chilling around undergoing training.

In Tales of Heresy, Bulveye's 13th Great Company was on a multi-year campaign at the end of which it was recalled back to Fenris where the entire chapter was being mustered, presumably for an attack on Prospero. I doubt they had enough time in between the end of the campaign and the fleet setting out from Fenris to resupply with enough warriors.

Point 2: It's sci-fi fiction, anything is possible. Plus we are talking about a superhuman Primarch created by the Emperor. We can't know the extent of their powers and strengths and weaknesses and whatever else they have. Don't forget that it is often theorized that all the Primarchs were somehow touched by Chaos when their capsules went missing from the Emperor's laboratories. Whatever powers worked on them, the possibilities are endless as to what they can do.

Point 3: Not everyone can just go to Fenris. Something called orbital defenses and security? Even the Thousand Sons strike force in Bill King's novel only managed to infiltrate the planet in the cover of a meteor storm. Otherwise there is a fleet patrolling the system and in orbit around the planet protecting it, not to mention all the rune priests and techmarines and orbital sensors and what not.

Point 4: What does having a mutant have to do with this anyway? Mutants are not exactly tolerated within the larger Imperium. And the Wulfen curse isn't exactly a stable curse either.

Stonerhino
21-12-2010, 08:28
2. They are not enemies of the Administratum or the Ecclesiarchy.
Although they had won, the victorious Armageddon soldiers were doomed from the start. They had gained knowledge of the existence of Chaos, and been exposed to its corruption. The Inquisition had all of the people who fought on the planet, except for the Space Marines, sterilized and placed in work camps, with their world being re-colonized by people from other regions of space with no knowledge of the war. Logan Grimnar battled long and hard to prevent this, but he failed and has never forgiven the Imperium for doing what Chaos had failed to. He saw it as betraying the people who had honorably fought for their homes and for the Imperium.The Ecclesiarchy attacked the Fang. After being beat back desided to let the Space Wolves be. Story on page 19 Codex Space Wolves 5th ed.

shadowhawk2008
21-12-2010, 10:12
The Ecclesiarchy attacked the Fang. After being beat back desided to let the Space Wolves be. Story on page 19 Codex Space Wolves 5th ed.

I believe you are referring to the rogue cardinal bucharis during the Age of Apostasy who is considered responsible for starting the Plague of Unbelief?

ChaosTicket
21-12-2010, 10:13
Ok the Great Crusade, a 200 year long war where all 18(technically 20 with the missing) were literally fighting as soon as the original legion(minus their unfound primarch) were fighting. Each legion was Veteran as soon as they were founded on Terra until their Primarch was found and took command, as well as recruits from the military that each Primarch founded.

the modern astartes recruitment takes about 5 years, while in the Great Crusade the constant need for the Astartes to act as shock troops for every major action like the ork empire of Ullanor ment the astartes often ment major losses were expected just because the enormity of the enemy.

The Astartes were different then then they are now. Now they are special forces with chapters seperated and decentralised. Back then they provided the main battle force with Imperial guard as backup, garrison forces, but werent in the heaviest fighting, if nothing more than simply lifespan.
----------------------------------------------
The Space Wolves are mutants, that is a fact. Supporting the claim that the canis Helix is airborne, means that its not exclusive to the Population. I say that it Is not airborne, or else ANY person or lifeform could get it. The Canis Helix is Either A as per knowledge before the Thousand Sons novel, part of the geneseed of Leman Russ, or B, according to the novel, genetic engineering of the life forms so that they could live in otherwise almost impossible conditions.

I dont think that genetic engineering can be airborne without a virus, and if it is carried by a virus then the virus would eventually die out, while the Canis Helix is part of every Space Wolves DNA.

shadowhawk2008
21-12-2010, 10:31
Ok the Great Crusade, a 200 year long war where all 18(technically 20 with the missing) were literally fighting as soon as the original legion(minus their unfound primarch) were fighting. Each legion was Veteran as soon as they were founded on Terra until their Primarch was found and took command, as well as recruits from the military that each Primarch founded.

the modern astartes recruitment takes about 5 years, while in the Great Crusade the constant need for the Astartes to act as shock troops for every major action like the ork empire of Ullanor ment the astartes often ment major losses were expected just because the enormity of the enemy.

The Astartes were different then then they are now. Now they are special forces with chapters seperated and decentralised. Back then they provided the main battle force with Imperial guard as backup, garrison forces, but werent in the heaviest fighting, if nothing more than simply lifespan.

is there any purpose behind this prose? i fail to see any relevance to the discussion at hand.


The Space Wolves are mutants, that is a fact. Supporting the claim that the canis Helix is airborne, means that its not exclusive to the Population. I say that it Is not airborne, or else ANY person or lifeform could get it. The Canis Helix is Either A as per knowledge before the Thousand Sons novel, part of the geneseed of Leman Russ, or B, according to the novel, genetic engineering of the life forms so that they could live in otherwise almost impossible conditions.

I dont think that genetic engineering can be airborne without a virus, and if it is carried by a virus then the virus would eventually die out, while the Canis Helix is part of every Space Wolves DNA.

I suggested the airborne element as one of others in the way that Russ could have absorbed the Canis Helix. Years of eating the local food and being brought up by one of the most dangerous animals in the galaxy (said animal carrying the Canis Helix in its genetic code) could have the same effect. He loved eating and drinking with his buddies... to the point where the Emperor first thought this Wolf King was just worthless... /shrug

And I never said the Wolves are not mutants. In fact every Astartes is a mutant to a degree or another. They get their genes tampered with, various organs implanted, they gain enhanced senses and so on. That's mutation. The Wolves just happen to be on the other end of the spectrum where their genes are more towards the "unseemly and dangerous" mutation. Just like those Blood Angels who fall prey to the Red Thirst for example.

ChaosTicket
21-12-2010, 11:58
It means that the recruitment of Space Wolves would be required to be HIGH. Trying to keep heavy recruitment from a single low population world, without damaging the genepool would be difficult, especially since they didnt have as many protocols that they do now.

The Space Wolves are more mutated because, well in the simplest form they are werewolves. Even at low base they grow long fangs, excessive hair, and increased aggression. Space Marines are mutants because of gene therapy, chemical changes, and surgery. Space Wolves are beyond that, more similar to Black Dragons, who have excessive bone growth as part of their geneseed. The Hair and aggression can partially be attributed simply to hair being uncut and aggression to their Viking-esque people and aggressive combat doctrine, but not the teeth, or in the extreme, actual growth of other canine features such as claws and canid muzzles as the Wulfen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The argument for acquiring genetic data through suckling milk is...not something I put merit into. Astartes can gain certain memories through consumption of blood and flesh(two of their more ghastly organs) but not DNA changes, unless it was tainted by Chaos.

Either Leman Russ' geneseed gives the Canis Helix, or its from the native population, either way doesnt matter beyond the Great Crusade, as now thats where the Space wolves have recruitment rights.

shadowhawk2008
21-12-2010, 12:30
It means that the recruitment of Space Wolves would be required to be HIGH. Trying to keep heavy recruitment from a single low population world, without damaging the genepool would be difficult, especially since they didnt have as many protocols that they do now.

All we know is that Fenris is a Feral world where the population can be in the millions, whether it is today or 10,000 years ago. And there is no reason to believe that the Wolves were going out of their way to keep yearly recruitment quotas or anything. There isn't enough information for that.


The Space Wolves are more mutated because, well in the simplest form they are werewolves. Even at low base they grow long fangs, excessive hair, and increased aggression. Space Marines are mutants because of gene therapy, chemical changes, and surgery. Space Wolves are beyond that, more similar to Black Dragons, who have excessive bone growth as part of their geneseed. The Hair and aggression can partially be attributed simply to hair being uncut and aggression to their Viking-esque people and aggressive combat doctrine, but not the teeth, or in the extreme, actual growth of other canine features such as claws and canid muzzles as the Wulfen. nothing new there. No one is arguing against that.


The argument for acquiring genetic data through suckling milk is...not something I put merit into. Astartes can gain certain memories through consumption of blood and flesh(two of their more ghastly organs) but not DNA changes, unless it was tainted by Chaos.

Either Leman Russ' geneseed gives the Canis Helix, or its from the native population, either way doesnt matter beyond the Great Crusade, as now thats where the Space wolves have recruitment rights.

Again, suckling milk is not all I am suggesting. And it may seem weird to you but why discount the possibility simply because such a thing seems outlandish and outrageous to us?

Leman Russ absorbed the Canis Helix when he was on Fenris in one way or the other. The particulars do not matter. It is just one theory among many.

ChaosTicket
21-12-2010, 13:08
But Did Russ have the Canis Helix? His wolves have it, but that doesnt mean he does. If its from his geneseed, he gives it to them, and old cannon was that this is why the space wolves mutate. Info from Thousand Sons says that the population had it, so it doesnt come from Russ.

One Way means Russ causes the mutation. The other means that he isnt the cause, and in fact wouldnt even have it.

The argument of how to get the Canis Helix IF its from the native population means thats in their genetic code, so Russ doesnt have it, and other also cannot get it, but their offspring can.
-------------------------------------
ALL of this means that:
If Fenris was the sole planet the Space Wolves recruited from during the Great Crusade their numbers would be low, because even successful recruiting still leaves a 9-1 rate of failure and likely death.
If the Canis Helix is native to the Population then any possible recruits outside Fenris would not have had it.

The Space Wolves probably were just small in number if Fenris was the only planet the used for recruiting, an then the Geneseed may conflict with the Geneseed in someway causing their apparent mutations, explaining they wolf transformations.

Oh and something outrageous would be more like a Titan standing without being made of a metal at least 10 times the density of any metal widely used now, but the knowledge of viruses and DNA is more factual.

Here's a bonus for you. Viruses technically are not living organisms because they dont reproduce, but rather transform other things into copies of themselves, unlike bacteria which reproduce like other organisms.

shadowhawk2008
21-12-2010, 13:24
But Did Russ have the Canis Helix? His wolves have it, but that doesnt mean he does. If its from his geneseed, he gives it to them, and old cannon was that this is why the space wolves mutate. Info from Thousand Sons says that the population had it, so it doesnt come from Russ.

One Way means Russ causes the mutation. The other means that he isnt the cause, and in fact wouldnt even have it.

The argument of how to get the Canis Helix IF its from the native population means thats in their genetic code, so Russ doesnt have it, and other also cannot get it, but their offspring can.

which is what i said before... we need information on whether or not the Space Wolves legion prior to reuniting with Russ displayed their characteristic mutations or not. if they did then Leman Russ has the Canis Helix. If not then it is probably as Magnus says in A Thousand Sons.


ALL of this means that:
If Fenris was the sole planet the Space Wolves recruited from during the Great Crusade their numbers would be low, because even successful recruiting still leaves a 9-1 rate of failure and likely death. I do not believe there is any information in any of the fluff that implies there is a 9-1 ratio of success/failure. It could be higher or it could be lower.


The Space Wolves probably were just small in number if Fenris was the only planet the used for recruiting, an then the Geneseed may conflict with the Geneseed in someway causing their apparent mutations, explaining they wolf transformations.

They were probably one of the smaller legions, no where near the 100k of the Word Bearers which had the second highest number apparently. Corax's legion is supposed to have had 80k marines at Istvaan in one source and if Corax is recruiting only from Deliverance then it's not hard to imagine that the Wolves had a number between 10k and 80k during the crusade. I would just guess a number and say and not more than 50k for the wolves.


Oh and something outrageous would be more like a Titan standing without being made of a metal at least 10 times the density of any metal widely used now, but the knowledge of viruses and DNA is more factual.

Here's a bonus for you. Viruses technically are not living organisms because they dont reproduce, but rather transform other things into copies of themselves, unlike bacteria which reproduce like other organisms.

not even going to get into that discussion.

ChaosTicket
21-12-2010, 14:14
The 9 out of ten is because the Space Wolves have one of the harshest recruiting regimes for recruits, which include extreme endurance, going put without clothes in Fenris' extreme temperature and other trials that would probably kill even other chapters' astartes.

I dont know where those numbers are from but that would be nearly impossible to transport so many, as even Battle barges can only can around 600-800 marines without modification, and 300 for strike cruisers, so back then they would need hundreds to thousands of ships to move even one planet away, when even at its height the legions only controlled around 1-6 battle barges and 10-40 strike cruisers, not to mention how many stormbirds.

Then think of how many recruits...

Sephiroth
21-12-2010, 16:33
IF the Space Wolves didnt recruit from any place but Fenris, then their legion size would have been nowhere near Legion standards, as Fenris already has a low population being a deathworld.

This logic didn't stop GW with the Blood Angels, Salamanders or Dark Angels. :p

Eumerin
21-12-2010, 17:51
The 9 out of ten is because the Space Wolves have one of the harshest recruiting regimes for recruits, which include extreme endurance, going put without clothes in Fenris' extreme temperature and other trials that would probably kill even other chapters' astartes.

My understanding of the trials is that the *real* difficulty for the recruit is in overcoming the Wulfen curse. If the recruit can overcome the curse on the trip back to the Fang, then they have a pretty good chance of surviving. Failure usually involves an inability to keep the curse in check.

From the sound of things, the environment isn't as big of an issue as you appear to believe it may be (which makes a certain amount of sense, given that the recruits are raised in a very similar environment, and thus would have a great deal of outdoor survival knowledge that we wouldn't have - unless you grew up in Alaska or Siberia, of course).

Hellebore
22-12-2010, 02:33
Space marines are also supposed to be recruited from a tiny fraction of suitable recipients. So a planet with a tiny population of which only a tiny fraction are suitable, will run out of them pretty quickly.

According to the planetary data provided in the 3rd ed rulebook, a feral world will have between 100,000 and 5,000,000 inhabitants, whilst a deathworld will have between 1,000 and 15,000,000 inhabitants.

Fenris has always been a Feral World. It's only recently that they changed it to a Deathworld (the above planetary listings even gives Fenris as an example of a Feral World).

The planet is not conducive to a high population anyway; impermanent land, continual sailing in primitive ships, continual internal fighting. The environment the Fenrisians live in, both planetary and cultural means they cannot be supporting a very large population.

The space wolves are also noted for sustaining high casualty levels from their Blood Claw packs, so they need to be recruiting regularly.

EDIT: As to the original question, they lost quite a lot of troops attacking Prospero. The newly released Prospero Burns describes this.

Hellebore

2_heads_talking
22-12-2010, 02:58
I have not really followed the Space Wolves background since 3rd edition, however I can answer the OP to the best knowledge that I have.

The Space Wolves chapter, even when at Legion level, were never a large chapter. As far as I recall they were one of the smallest, and only numbered in the tens of thousands as opposed to the hundreds, like the Ultramarines.

Now, where they went. I warn you, though, some of this has likely been retconned, but without it I find it increasingly more difficult to justify in my mind:

1. The Space Wolves attacked Prospero; true they gutted the place, but they were fighting a legion of sorcerors. Where they had might, their foes had magic, so they must have lost a great many marines before Magnus did his legion-wide vanishing act.

2. During third edition there was a piece of background information in a White Dwarf ("The Lion and The Wolf", I believe it was called) that indicated the combined forces of Russ and Jonson attempted to fight their way to Earth to aid the loyalist forces. However, Russ insisted upon stopping to aid beleaguered worlds much to Jonson's frustration. This, coupled with the fact that the very forces of Chaos were apparently trying to stop them, destroying their ships as they travelled through the warp, would have lost them even more.

3. Though the Heresy was said to be over after Horus fell and the traitors fled, the actual chasing of the traitors went on for a while until they reached the Eye of Terror. Whilst older fluff indicated that the Ultramarines, being sent far to the Galactic South by Horus and subsequently missing most of the Heresy had the most remaining space marines so took part in the majority of the defending of the weakened Imperium (a piece of background that I was sorry they changed, but that's another conversation), I find it hard to believe that the Space Wolves did not also help in the fighting, at least in the chasing of the traitors. Again, more battle losses.

4. Great Companies vanishing; I only ever saw an indication of this in a White Dwarf after the 3rd edition SW codex was released, and it did seem to indicate that the Wolf Lords, if in a position where travelling home was difficult or impossible, would simply do their own thing. I don't remember any indication of them leaving any priests behind, as they all followed their Lord, but I'm sure the resulting fluff piece, a journal of a guardsman, said that the Wolf Lord simply decided not to go home, so they'd started hunting Tyranids. I don't imagine this would be common, for there is little way that the SW could realistically come back from dozens of companies suddenly deciding to jump ship, even over ten thousand years, but that would be another 150-200 marines in one swoop who wouldn't come home.

4. Russ, AFAIK, only took his Wolf Guard with him when he left. There has never been a figure put on this, but I don't really think it would have been the size of a Great Company. These were his closest men, so I'd have said about 50 at most.

5. 13th company vanishing.

6. Splitting one into the Wolf Brothers, and the resulting "problems"; maybe half their number?

I hope this makes sense; really like an earlier poster I always thought that each Great Company would be chapter-sized, but obviously not. Considering what I have put above, it becomes quite easy to see where the SW numbers have gone.

EDIT:

The Horus Heresy lasted 200 years? What, the actual heresy being from the moment Horus virus-bombed Istvaan to his death on his battle barge? Where is this indicated, as this seems like far too long a period unless this would also include the chasing of the traitors to the Eye...

Stonerhino
22-12-2010, 05:13
I believe you are referring to the rogue cardinal bucharis during the Age of Apostasy who is considered responsible for starting the Plague of Unbelief?No that story was in the Sisters of battle 2nd codex.

I'm talking about the continuation of the stroy from the Space Wolves 3rd ed codex.

The Ecclesiarchy sends an offical to investigate the befiefs of the Spaces Wolves (page 30 3rd ed codex). His ship is fired upon and forced to leave. Well warning shots and threats. A years later the Eccesiarchy sends 3 order of Adepta Sororitas to enter by force (page 19 current codex). The war lasts 3 week at which point the Ecclesiarchy pulls out.

ChaosTicket
22-12-2010, 15:40
The missing 13th company in the 3rd edition Space wolves codex as supposed to be both the Astartes that went with Leman Russ to the Eye of Terror as well as a highly wulfen company, and its place is symbolically left open in the Space Wolves. When the Eye of Terror campaign codex came out they returned as an Wolf Guard army, which included whole units of wulfen, and all the Blood Claws and Grey Hunters had become Veterans as Storm Claws, and the like, in exchange the only vehicles they had were Bikes, no tanks of Land Speeders.

The 13th Company is my army of choice, even if its unofficial now.
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I dont know how long the Horus Heresy actually happened, as it was from the Istvaan III bombing until the traitors largely retreated to the Eye of Terror. The Great Crusade overall took about 200 years, but the Heresy ended the Crusade then lasted indefinately, until about the first Black Crusade.

as for the Ecclesiarchy I think the Plague of Unbelief and Reign of Blood happened at the same time when Goge Vandire took control of the Imperium, acted as a universal tyrant, until finally was killed by the Sisters. I dont know when the Plague of Unbelief takes place, where it was thousands of years ago, or only hundreds, while the Reign of Blood happened back in about the 36th millenium.

Eumerin
22-12-2010, 17:05
The missing 13th company in the 3rd edition Space wolves codex as supposed to be both the Astartes that went with Leman Russ to the Eye of Terror as well as a highly wulfen company, and its place is symbolically left open in the Space Wolves. When the Eye of Terror campaign codex came out they returned as an Wolf Guard army, which included whole units of wulfen, and all the Blood Claws and Grey Hunters had become Veterans as Storm Claws, and the like, in exchange the only vehicles they had were Bikes, no tanks of Land Speeders.


Is that the story now?

Originally they were lost pursuing the Thousand Sons immediately following the destruction of Prospero.

ChaosTicket
22-12-2010, 18:36
To be clear the 13th company that came back ARENT actually claimed to be wolf guard, but they have the stats of them.

Before the heresy novels came out it wasnt as clear the time frame between Prospero's destruction, the siege of the Imperial palace, and the retreat of the traitors, and it still isnt entirely clear.

From the Codex It was like this:
Thousand Sons are attacked and Prospero destroyed, with Wulfen in the Vanguard, at relatively the same time as Istvaan 5 so they are seen as traitors.
Thousand Sons help traitors at Imperial Palace and their sorcery combined with Iron legion siege engines cause breaches, while at the same time confirming they are in fact traitors.
After siege Leman Russ and 13th company both go missing, chasing after the traitors into the Eye of Terror.

Now the Prospero events are claimed to be BEFORE the Istvaan 3 events, but not by much. Whether the wulfen left the legion immediately after Prospero, or after following the rest of the wolves to the Imperial Palace is unknown.

The 13th+Leman russ in Eye of Terror may or may not coincide, or just be coincidence.

Stonerhino
22-12-2010, 19:09
The 13th Wulfen still chase the traitors into the Eye of Terror. That has not changed. But in the original story there were details left out so it appeared to happen right after. Now we know that Magnus and the bulk of serviving Thousand Sons teleported off of Prospero. So the Thousand Sons that got chased had to be from the ones aiding the traitors on Terra.

What I think ChaosTicket is talking about is the 13th stone in the Grand Annulus. Which originally was for the 13th company (Time of the Herest) but now (Modern 40k) is for any "Lost" Companies. This idea comes from the 3rd ed codex but carries over to the new one as well.

Edit:
Leman Russ lead a force that went somewhere. The where is unknown though and iirc it was a year after the Horus Heresy.

ChaosTicket
22-12-2010, 19:50
Yes the 13th company is placement in the stones, technically for ALL missing companies and Space Wolves, but to the Original 13th are the wulfen from the original legion.

Nazguire
22-12-2010, 23:49
The 13th Wulfen still chase the traitors into the Eye of Terror. That has not changed. But in the original story there were details left out so it appeared to happen right after. Now we know that Magnus and the bulk of serviving Thousand Sons teleported off of Prospero. So the Thousand Sons that got chased had to be from the ones aiding the traitors on Terra.

What I think ChaosTicket is talking about is the 13th stone in the Grand Annulus. Which originally was for the 13th company (Time of the Herest) but now (Modern 40k) is for any "Lost" Companies. This idea comes from the 3rd ed codex but carries over to the new one as well.

Edit:
Leman Russ lead a force that went somewhere. The where is unknown though and iirc it was a year after the Horus Heresy.


In A Thousand Sons after they have been placed on the Planet of the Sorcerers, Ahriman remarks he can hear wolf howls in the distance, indicating that the 13th Company may have followed them as rumoured.