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the Council of Six
15-12-2010, 21:33
Me and my friend are organizing a Siege of Terra battle involving maybe around a million points total, and we need lots of input.

anything you can think of from modelling and equipping the primarchs to the design of the Palace to finding a way to make the tabletop work, anything you can ask or tell is appreciated. we are also unsure as to exactly what forces are present and what characters we need( we might be ignoring Horus' duel with the Emperor)

Col. Tartleton
15-12-2010, 21:54
A million points? That's what, a few hundred players?

I'd style the palace as... Rococo. Like Versailles or the Louvre or any of the other buildings of that period with a grimdark gothic touch. With hundreds of players you'd want dozens of tables going on at a time. Perhaps a dozen could depict various parts of the Palace. One table might be the Gates alone. The Palace covered hundreds of square miles at least, probably thousands not including the palace gardens and such. If Versailles has 8 square miles of garden around the house you're looking at scaling up the palace complex for the God Emperor by... a lot. According to the Lightning Tower the building can be seen from Mars (perhaps with the naked eye... :p) It's built on the Himalayas which sounds ridiculous but it's probably the only place where there wasn't **** everywhere that had that kind of stony foundation to build on.

Inquisitor Engel
15-12-2010, 21:56
No offense to the OP, but five bucks says this never happens.

Kage2020
15-12-2010, 22:05
Well, it might sound more realistic if the OP comes up with an explanation of the scope of the campaign. After all, it could be a million points played out between a handful of people over a a couple of hundred different sessions...

Kage

Erazmus_M_Wattle
15-12-2010, 22:07
Goodies; Blood Angels, White Scars, Imperial Fists, Custodian Guard. Imperial Army and Adeptus Mechanicus.

Baddies; Sons of Horus, Thousand Sons, World Eaters, Death Guard, and the Iron Warriors. Renegade Army and the Dark Mechanicus.

The Mechanicus forces included Titan Legions on both sides.

I think that's all that used to be covered in the background. Who knows maybe others got involved. Maybe GW also changed the background since I first got into the Heresy Story. The Emperors Children may also have been present.

MarshalFaust
15-12-2010, 22:16
my first suggestion would be to shoot for a more manageable game like say maybe 10,000 points per side, how would you even fit 1M points worth of models in one room let alone on a single table. are you planning on renting out the convention center or maybe a sports stadium?

the Council of Six
15-12-2010, 23:37
The battle is between me and my friend, and 1m points is what we figured out to be the number to place the legions necessary on the table, and we need feedback to make it work right. it'll probably be a while before it happens, but we will do it and it will be posted on youtube. i think some things could be downsized, and we might actually decide to make it a giant group battle (moving 500,000 points in 30 minutes might be a tad extreme). But anyway characters in the battle are a slight mystery to us (or at least me). and thanks for the input so far, more is good, all is better.

Previously noted, this is how we found the points range. Origionally we hadnt counted for so many legions to be present, and thought the Imperials had the Blood angels, Imperial fists, and some Ultramarines, oh and some titans and other things. i calculated one day that a whole 100 SM company can be fielded for roughly 2,000 pts, so logically, a chapter for 20,000, and a legion would be a whopping 200,000 estimated points, so for 2 whole legions, part of a third, the titans and Imperial Army, should be about 500,000 pts on either side, and for those who cant do math for some reason thats 500,000+500,000=1,000,000

Nazguire
16-12-2010, 00:30
The battle is between me and my friend, and 1m points is what we figured out to be the number to place the legions necessary on the table, and we need feedback to make it work right. it'll probably be a while before it happens, but we will do it and it will be posted on youtube. i think some things could be downsized, and we might actually decide to make it a giant group battle (moving 500,000 points in 30 minutes might be a tad extreme). But anyway characters in the battle are a slight mystery to us (or at least me). and thanks for the input so far, more is good, all is better.

Previously noted, this is how we found the points range. Origionally we hadnt counted for so many legions to be present, and thought the Imperials had the Blood angels, Imperial fists, and some Ultramarines, oh and some titans and other things. i calculated one day that a whole 100 SM company can be fielded for roughly 2,000 pts, so logically, a chapter for 20,000, and a legion would be a whopping 200,000 estimated points, so for 2 whole legions, part of a third, the titans and Imperial Army, should be about 500,000 pts on either side, and for those who cant do math for some reason thats 500,000+500,000=1,000,000

There were no Ultramarines during the Siege. White Scars, Blood Angels and Imperial Fists were the Legions present.

ooglatjama
16-12-2010, 00:42
How on Earth could anyone afford those models?

Dante101
16-12-2010, 00:45
10x Marines = 37.5$
therefore
37.5x10=375$
the legion
375x10=3750
two of them
7500$

40,000 minis to paint= 15 years of painting all day

good luck to you sir

Kage2020
16-12-2010, 01:11
Err, perhaps the OP intends to go with Epic? That's more in the realm of possibility and you have to admit that it would be truly awesome to witness. I tend not to use that word 'awesome' without a cynical turn of phrase but... Just imagine it.

On the other hand, as outlined it does sound like it's a bit less realistic. But to dream and hope that it would be fulfilled... :D

Kage

Nazguire
16-12-2010, 02:12
10x Marines = 37.5$
therefore
37.5x10=375$
the legion
375x10=3750
two of them
7500$

40,000 minis to paint= 15 years of painting all day

good luck to you sir

Two Legions, with 10,000 Marines a pop, give or take, is $7500 average you say? Then imagine having to spend that on x amount of Legions that were at the Siege, let alone the Imperial Army, Daemons, and the two billion conversion bits for Dark Mechanicus, Custodians, the aforementioned Imperial Army, the Titan LEGIONS that were there, Primarchs, etc.

If you can pull it off, you'll find that you're either destitute or in a mental asylum. Good luck either way.

Bergioyn
16-12-2010, 07:40
I'll have to agree with others here, sounds a tad unrealistic. But Good luck anyway (you're gonna need it!) :)

Lord Damocles
16-12-2010, 10:04
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3726666&highlight=palace#post3726666 Might help. Post 5 has pictures.

MarshallSam
16-12-2010, 13:28
Seriously while this does sound awesome ^10,000 you might want to save yourself a few grand and just replay the battle with this:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite.asp?eidm=98&enmi=Horus%20Heresy

Pontiff
16-12-2010, 13:37
An eminently sensible suggestion above regading the HH game.

Regardless of the utterly unrealistic apsiration of painting and buying all said models; 40k isnt designed for games of that scale, even the apocalypse stuff has a sensible ceiling.

Game mechanics tend to break down when you go for huge mega games (not to mention it taking hours to have a single turn) so why not choose (as suggested) the relevant system for the scale of engagement.

In the same way that a fight between a single marine and single chaos marine would be far ore interesting using the Inquisitor rules then using say epic for games above company strength would seem to make sense

Major_Manny
16-12-2010, 13:45
This is this funniest thing i have heard in a long long time...you have more chance platting p*ss than fielding 1m worth of GW!!!

Lord Damocles
16-12-2010, 13:57
Custom datasheet: The Emperor - 1 million points.

I iz winnor!

MarshalFaust
16-12-2010, 15:20
ok so just figuring from your math lets say you have 50,000 models per side? does that sound reasonable? lets say you take 1 second to move each model in your movement phase. your movement phase alone would take 13 hours. lets say it takes 10 sec to roll dice for shooting resolve shooting from a single squad thats another 13 hours now your opponent gets to roll his saves. +13 hours give or take. you see what im getting at? it would likely take you more than a straight week of playing nonstop, no eating no bathroom breaks, no talking, to make it through a single turn and that doesn't even count all the time it would take to set up, deploy, and remove casualties.

I will give you my first born son and all of my 40k armies if you actually pull this off. but by then my son will likely be a grown man and I in my grave.

godspeed you crazy bastard. ;)

massey
16-12-2010, 15:27
The guy with the largest army in our game store has around 40,000 points of Eldar. He's a single guy with a high paying job, and he's collected that over the course of about 12 years. You'd need 25 of him to field a million points. There are a handful of us who have somewhere in the high teens to low 20s. You'd need about 50 of us to reach a million. And most of those armies are not ones that would have appeared at the battle for Terra.

Scale down your goal. Best thing to remember is that those armies weren't all on the field at the same time, and they weren't all in the same place. The Emperor's Children were running around murdering civilians, not launching assaults on the main Imperial Gate. There would be World Eaters chopping up guardsmen in South America, thousands of miles from the final assault. You don't have to show that portion of the battle.

A game of 50,000 points per side is huuuuuge. With some suitably large scale terrain, a game of that size will be something you remember for a long time.

Spider-pope
16-12-2010, 16:25
Might i suggest Epic (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/landingArmy.jsp?catId=cat480006a&rootCatGameStyle=) rather than 40k. While it will still be incredibly big and a heck of a lot of work to carry out, it would be slightly more realistic than spending 70 grand and several weeks playtime on a single fight.

Sgt John Keel
16-12-2010, 16:34
It's built on the Himalayas which sounds ridiculous but it's probably the only place where there wasn't **** everywhere that had that kind of stony foundation to build on.

I am reasonably sure that the Imperial Palace is built over Nottingham and it's the Chamber of the Astronomican that is situated in the Himalayas.

agurus1
16-12-2010, 16:52
I am reasonably sure that the Imperial Palace is built over Nottingham and it's the Chamber of the Astronomican that is situated in the Himalayas.

Imperial palace is built ontop of the himilayas the chamber, as well as the golden throne are beneath it in the heart of the mountains along with all the gene labs the emperor used to make the primarchs and space marines.

Kenzaburo
16-12-2010, 21:50
funny, because at one point the golden throne was actually said to be right at that spot, that is now occupied by GW headquarters in nottingham. nevertheless, the imperial palace is crazy big, spanning almost all of the eurasian continent. the inquisition headquartes consume all of australia. eternity gate - the main palace gate is unimaginably large.

this is 40k, scale is totally outta whack here. at least the OP is true to that.
but if you pull this off it's gonna be legendary, that's for sure.

Nazguire
17-12-2010, 00:46
funny, because at one point the golden throne was actually said to be right at that spot, that is now occupied by GW headquarters in nottingham. nevertheless, the imperial palace is crazy big, spanning almost all of the eurasian continent. the inquisition headquartes consume all of australia. eternity gate - the main palace gate is unimaginably large.

this is 40k, scale is totally outta whack here. at least the OP is true to that.
but if you pull this off it's gonna be legendary, that's for sure.


Retconned with the Horus Heresy novels. The Imperial Palace at the point of the Heresy, including where the Golden Throne was, is based in the Himalayas.

FabricatorGeneralMike
17-12-2010, 02:26
funny, because at one point the golden throne was actually said to be right at that spot, that is now occupied by GW headquarters in nottingham. nevertheless, the imperial palace is crazy big, spanning almost all of the eurasian continent. the inquisition headquartes consume all of australia. eternity gate - the main palace gate is unimaginably large.

this is 40k, scale is totally outta whack here. at least the OP is true to that.
but if you pull this off it's gonna be legendary, that's for sure.


Actually the =][= HQ is on Antartica, The mile high towers of the Navigator Patriarchs and their twisted Familes are situaited on Australlia.
]
The Imperial palice started off in the Himilayas as in a few stories its remarked that some of the first parts of the palace are built over a chamber which used to be a mountain peak called the Leng Room. The Emperor seems to love this place and comes their to work. I like to think that it was slowly being built since the Emperor started his war for 'Unity'. When the spoils of the Great Crusade came back to Terra, it funded the expansion that almost covered Asia.

Warmaster_John
17-12-2010, 04:02
. The Emperors Children may also have been present.

Unless the HH novels have retconned this, the EC where present on Terra but did not take part in the Siege; they attacked the civilian population in order to enslave them and later render them down into chemicals/stimulants.

massey
17-12-2010, 04:56
The Imperial palice started off in the Himilayas as in a few stories its remarked that some of the first parts of the palace are built over a chamber which used to be a mountain peak called the Leng Room. The Emperor seems to love this place and comes their to work. I like to think that it was slowly being built since the Emperor started his war for 'Unity'. When the spoils of the Great Crusade came back to Terra, it funded the expansion that almost covered Asia.

Lovecraft reference. Leng is a plateau in Lovecraft's books where different realities converge. You can walk from there to another dimension. Probably a good place for the Emperor to stick his little webway experiment.

the Council of Six
20-12-2010, 20:04
Seriously while this does sound awesome ^10,000 you might want to save yourself a few grand and just replay the battle with this:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite.asp?eidm=98&enmi=Horus%20Heresy

omg ive been looking everywhere for that!!


ok so just figuring from your math lets say you have 50,000 models per side? does that sound reasonable? lets say you take 1 second to move each model in your movement phase. your movement phase alone would take 13 hours. lets say it takes 10 sec to roll dice for shooting resolve shooting from a single squad thats another 13 hours now your opponent gets to roll his saves. +13 hours give or take. you see what im getting at? it would likely take you more than a straight week of playing nonstop, no eating no bathroom breaks, no talking, to make it through a single turn and that doesn't even count all the time it would take to set up, deploy, and remove casualties.

I will give you my first born son and all of my 40k armies if you actually pull this off. but by then my son will likely be a grown man and I in my grave.

godspeed you crazy bastard. ;)

my friend, that is the single most quotable phrase since Austin Powers in my own opinion.


The guy with the largest army in our game store has around 40,000 points of Eldar. He's a single guy with a high paying job, and he's collected that over the course of about 12 years. You'd need 25 of him to field a million points. There are a handful of us who have somewhere in the high teens to low 20s. You'd need about 50 of us to reach a million. And most of those armies are not ones that would have appeared at the battle for Terra.

Scale down your goal. Best thing to remember is that those armies weren't all on the field at the same time, and they weren't all in the same place. The Emperor's Children were running around murdering civilians, not launching assaults on the main Imperial Gate. There would be World Eaters chopping up guardsmen in South America, thousands of miles from the final assault. You don't have to show that portion of the battle.

A game of 50,000 points per side is huuuuuge. With some suitably large scale terrain, a game of that size will be something you remember for a long time.

what armies and legions etc should there be in the final assault?

Nazguire
21-12-2010, 02:25
what armies and legions etc should there be in the final assault?

Traitors:

World Eaters
Sons of Horus
Iron Warriors
Thousand Sons
Death Guard
Word Bearers
Elements of the Night Lords (they weren't a strong presence, but there were some there)

Don't think that the Alpha Legion was there. Haven't seen any source to indicate they were.

Rebel Imperial Army

Mutants

Traitor Titan Legions such as Legio Mortis (probably had the strongest presence, being the Legio that hung out with the Warmaster the most)

Daemons. Lots of Daemons

Loyalist

Imperial Fists
Blood Angels
White Scars

Imperial Army
Adeptus Custodes
Silent Sisterhood

Loyal Titan Legions like Legio Ignatum, Legio Tempestus

madd0ct0r
21-12-2010, 03:23
Loyal Imperial army too as well

the Council of Six
21-12-2010, 22:14
Might i suggest Epic (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/landingArmy.jsp?catId=cat480006a&rootCatGameStyle=) rather than 40k. While it will still be incredibly big and a heck of a lot of work to carry out, it would be slightly more realistic than spending 70 grand and several weeks playtime on a single fight.

i read your signature, and faith is not on your side, mr. spider pope.

One idea may be to separate the siege into several subsequent battles, for instance, one for Lion's Gate starport, one for the Eternity gate, and so on. but if thats the case what spots had the largest conflict?

prowla
21-12-2010, 22:52
Might i suggest Epic (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/landingArmy.jsp?catId=cat480006a&rootCatGameStyle=) rather than 40k. While it will still be incredibly big and a heck of a lot of work to carry out, it would be slightly more realistic than spending 70 grand and several weeks playtime on a single fight.

Considering the price of the Epic gold nugge.. erm, tin gitz, it only cuts the costs to one fifth :D You'd still be putting more than 10 grand on the table :chrome:

Pontiff
22-12-2010, 01:26
One idea may be to separate the siege into several subsequent battles, for instance, one for Lion's Gate starport, one for the Eternity gate, and so on. but if thats the case what spots had the largest conflict?


You know if you're even half serious considering spending most peoples idea of a small fortune on the models for this you'd probably better off investing in a few books and reading up on the battle first...

Time spent in recconaisance is seldom wasted :)

the Council of Six
22-12-2010, 01:32
You know if you're even half serious considering spending most peoples idea of a small fortune on the models for this you'd probably better off investing in a few books and reading up on the battle first...

Time spent in recconaisance is seldom wasted :)

only if you're smart enough to know what to do with it, friend. and yes that should be a good idea, and i think my opponent has them en masse. i should ask to borrow them.


A million points? That's what, a few hundred players?

I'd style the palace as... Rococo. Like Versailles or the Louvre or any of the other buildings of that period with a grimdark gothic touch. With hundreds of players you'd want dozens of tables going on at a time. Perhaps a dozen could depict various parts of the Palace. One table might be the Gates alone. The Palace covered hundreds of square miles at least, probably thousands not including the palace gardens and such. If Versailles has 8 square miles of garden around the house you're looking at scaling up the palace complex for the God Emperor by... a lot. According to the Lightning Tower the building can be seen from Mars (perhaps with the naked eye... :p) It's built on the Himalayas which sounds ridiculous but it's probably the only place where there wasn't **** everywhere that had that kind of stony foundation to build on.

logically, from Mars you could barely see EARTH with the naked eye

baphomael
22-12-2010, 23:15
As a large multiplayer megabattle over a series of linked tables with a certain amount of freedom to fudge things, it could be feasible

Ghudra
22-12-2010, 23:56
Trying to resolve the Siege of Terra in a game system that isn't designed for large-scale conflicts won't help your cause. Picking over the battle's high points and running a multi-system campaign with BFG, AI, & Epic would make for a far better gaming experience. You can always put together some 40K fights for the cinematic clashes on The Vengeful Spirit etc.

Assuming you aren't the dictator of some small country, you may find it difficult to get players to subscribe to the monotony of playing Apoc/40K all the way through.

the Council of Six
23-12-2010, 01:43
Trying to resolve the Siege of Terra in a game system that isn't designed for large-scale conflicts won't help your cause. Picking over the battle's high points and running a multi-system campaign with BFG, AI, & Epic would make for a far better gaming experience. You can always put together some 40K fights for the cinematic clashes on The Vengeful Spirit etc.

Assuming you aren't the dictator of some small country, you may find it difficult to get players to subscribe to the monotony of playing Apoc/40K all the way through.

we're doing this big and we're using Apoc. and BFG.

and for the thousandth time it's just me and my friend

Nazguire
23-12-2010, 01:49
Where are you getting the funds and manpower from? Your secret Colombian drug cartel?

the Council of Six
23-12-2010, 01:55
Where are you getting the funds and manpower from? Your secret Colombian drug cartel?

OMG HOW DID YOU KNO!?--uh, um ahem, you must be mistaken, im simply going to be very wealthy in my career and once again, me and my friend are the only ones participating, no one else.

Nazguire
23-12-2010, 02:24
OMG HOW DID YOU KNO!?--uh, um ahem, you must be mistaken, im simply going to be very wealthy in my career and once again, me and my friend are the only ones participating, no one else.

Oh yeah...:shifty:

Well, good luck with that. I'll keep an eye out for you in the Guiness Book of World Records.

massey
23-12-2010, 03:21
Me and my friend are building a rocket ship to go to Mars.

Nazguire
23-12-2010, 03:32
Me and my friend are building a rocket ship to go to Mars.

Is it a large rocket ship, in which everyone can play Warhammer all day on?

sic
23-12-2010, 04:34
So 500,000 points each that seems feasible...

Overlord Krycis
23-12-2010, 07:05
Me and my friend are organizing a Siege of Terra battle involving maybe around a million points total, and we need lots of input.

anything you can think of from modelling and equipping the primarchs to the design of the Palace to finding a way to make the tabletop work, anything you can ask or tell is appreciated. we are also unsure as to exactly what forces are present and what characters we need( we might be ignoring Horus' duel with the Emperor)

Thank you good sir...you gave me the lols that I needed after a particularly trying fortnight. :p

After reading though the rest of the thread, I really don't see you pulling this off Council...it's an investment of Tens of Thousands of pounds on what amounts to little plastic toy soldiers.
Putting ALL of my 40k armies together I probably have in the region of 75-80000 pts...and I've been collecting for 17 years.
I would love to see this dude...but I just REALLY don't see you "and a friend" being able to do it.

Prove me wrong though and there's a free cookie in it for you! :D

Lothlanathorian
23-12-2010, 07:40
logically, from Mars you could barely see EARTH with the naked eye

Exactly!:p


Unless the HH novels have retconned this, the EC where present on Terra but did not take part in the Siege; they attacked the civilian population in order to enslave them and later render them down into chemicals/stimulants.

So that's what the kids call it these days:shifty:


Well, make sure to take lots of film, my great-grandkids will want to see this.

chadenej
23-12-2010, 11:37
Crazy project!

Such a big battle... Posted on YT it needs to be beautiful. Make the things right: what about the table?
First, the Palace being on the Himalaya, ya need to make a 28mm scaled Himalaya. I don't know how huge it would be. Rent a hangar.

Then you will need to make the Palace itself. J. Blanche drawings are the best inspiration pictures. I think you can put some LED there and there, smokes and sounds. Why not lasers?

Protagonists and antagonists: I don't think speed painting them is a good idea. Ya need good looking models. Mold lines trimmed, weathering, highlights and stuff.
Don't forget the decals!! Bols team have made some for the HH era Legios.
Or you can hire professional painters for this work.

Good luck! see you in some years

Brother of the Hydra
23-12-2010, 11:49
Me and my friend are organizing a Siege of Terra battle involving maybe around a million points total, and we need lots of input.

Is it April Fools already.....? wow! my medication has some kick!!! ;)

Ah the days I spent as a kid dreaming of doing this.....

Nazguire
23-12-2010, 12:28
Crazy project!

Such a big battle... Posted on YT it needs to be beautiful. Make the things right: what about the table?
First, the Palace being on the Himalaya, ya need to make a 28mm scaled Himalaya. I don't know how huge it would be. Rent a hangar.

Then you will need to make the Palace itself. J. Blanche drawings are the best inspiration pictures. I think you can put some LED there and there, smokes and sounds. Why not lasers?

Protagonists and antagonists: I don't think speed painting them is a good idea. Ya need good looking models. Mold lines trimmed, weathering, highlights and stuff.
Don't forget the decals!! Bols team have made some for the HH era Legios.
Or you can hire professional painters for this work.

Good luck! see you in some years

Hopefully there will be some crazy 4th dimension television channel, so I can personally experience this once it's completed.

massey
23-12-2010, 16:33
Is it a large rocket ship, in which everyone can play Warhammer all day on?

Don't be silly. We're going to have a lot of equipment with us, so we can found the Adeptus Mechanicus when we get there. Just me and my friend.

Pontiff
23-12-2010, 17:07
Is it April Fools already.....? wow! my medication has some kick!!! ;)

Ah the days I spent as a kid dreaming of doing this.....

I have this strange feeling this is somebody else pipe dream too... :)

wilsongrahams
23-12-2010, 22:52
Ignoring the disbelief etc, I just want to offer some advice on how I found it best to recreate very large battles. For a campaign I ran that needed an entire Blood Angels Chapter I created a map on A2 paper with battle zones by the cities and then created force cards that I could place at each location to show what forces were available there. Each campaign round I played one game at each location and moved and joined forces after those games before the next lot of games.

This meant that as long as I never needed more than a whole company in any single battle I was fine - the same minis could be used in different games but representing different models.

Some large battles towards the end needed large armies at each location, so I just fought a Left flank game and a Right flank game, and then if needed played a final battle using the survivors from those two battles. At rare times, the odd heavy weapon in a tactical squad had to miraculously change to fit the available models, but that is a small point.

This system, even upgraded to use all the models you can field, would be perfect for fielding a Legion at a time. Otherwise I see no way to feasibly command so many models at once (least of all build and paint them!).

The point you make about characters - with so many rank and file models compared to the average 2000k game, your characters are few and far between so you need to remember where you leave them and you will want to protect them.

For a Legion, assume it will be roughly the same as the chapters that make up it's second founding, eg Blood Angels would be around 5000 strong. You will need to add all the loyal forces up and then just use the same number of chaos forces - assume any shortfall there is them clearing out their own loyal members to account for their lower numbers.

To use Primarchs, just give them Greater Daemon stats and be done with it - you could easily overthink them and the effort would be wasted. At least Sanguinius was en par with a bloodthirster in fluff so easy enough to do.

Good luck with organising this and recreating it in some way or other. Don't be afraid to accept defeat in some areas and adjust your plan. Remember your arms are limited in length so you won't want to be using a table so large you can't reach the models to move them, and the table size will limit the models you can use on the table.

DYoung
23-12-2010, 23:04
Personally, I don't think you're aiming high enough. One million points really isn't going to cut it I'm afraid. I reckon any less than six million points a side and you're selling it short. I mean one million points is such a small game that it's hardly even worth playing.
Is there any way that I can pre-order tickets to this? I know I'll be long dead but I'm hoping that my great grandchildren will be able to witness this awesome spectacle.

mob16151
23-12-2010, 23:08
Man this thread is full of dream crushers. Good luck buddy.

olberon
24-12-2010, 00:13
yeah i agree, didnt we all have the dream when we started playing to rent out a indoor tenniscourt and play a mega -mega mega battle in it with friends. all im saying is try a few smaller battles first like 5k then scale it up to 10k and no bare mini's all painted and so on..

anyhow a few good sponsors should do the trick ^^

madd0ct0r
24-12-2010, 05:19
Ignoring the disbelief etc, I just want to offer some advice on how I found it best to recreate very large battles. For a campaign I ran that needed an entire Blood Angels Chapter I created a map on A2 paper with battle zones by the cities and then created force cards that I could place at each location to show what forces were available there. Each campaign round I played one game at each location and moved and joined forces after those games before the next lot of games.

This meant that as long as I never needed more than a whole company in any single battle I was fine - the same minis could be used in different games but representing different models.

Some large battles towards the end needed large armies at each location, so I just fought a Left flank game and a Right flank game, and then if needed played a final battle using the survivors from those two battles. At rare times, the odd heavy weapon in a tactical squad had to miraculously change to fit the available models, but that is a small point.



This is actually a pretty good approach if I'm honest.
might be able to intrest a few people in this.

or we could play it on vassal...

Brother of the Hydra
24-12-2010, 08:20
I have this strange feeling this is somebody else pipe dream too... :)

You know it chum!!! but then something happened :(

I grew up.... got a job..... went to a club.... and woke up one morning to find myself with a mortgage and wife :wtf:

Simo429
24-12-2010, 22:43
On tuesday we are having a 15-20k points per side game at Warhammer world and we are one of the biggest clubs in this country and thats with getting as many as us possible together (without fielding maximum armies) how the hell can anyone expect to field 1 million points?

malika
25-12-2010, 01:25
Remember this?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.de/mediawiki/images/5/5b/ImperialerPalast.jpg

Pontiff
25-12-2010, 18:48
A *lot* less models on that than you'd think as well you know (i know cos it was my job to strip the bugger and rebase all the minis as 'event armies' for open days and the like - i even had the eye of horus gate centrepiece on my computer monitor for years until i flogged it!) Probably only a couple of hundred a side I think. Most of them were shockingly painted too and some only on one side (i've still got one or two models from it bt most have been ebayed over time.

We used to call it 'the emperors fireplace' as up close it actually looked like a very big mantlepiece :).

massey
25-12-2010, 23:21
Remember this?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.de/mediawiki/images/5/5b/ImperialerPalast.jpg

It's just really big scenery. If you actually look and start counting models, it's fairly small. I have more marines than that picture does.

Sgt John Keel
26-12-2010, 03:33
Traitors:

World Eaters
Sons of Horus
Iron Warriors
Thousand Sons
Death Guard
Word Bearers
Elements of the Night Lords (they weren't a strong presence, but there were some there)

Don't think that the Alpha Legion was there. Haven't seen any source to indicate they were.

Yet more retcons? The Bill King story only had the Sons of Horus and the Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters and Thousand Sons present.

Nazguire
27-12-2010, 02:41
Yet more retcons? The Bill King story only had the Sons of Horus and the Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters and Thousand Sons present.


Iron Warriors cracked open the Palace walls with Legio Mortis.

Madruk and Talos both reminisce on the siege of the Imperial Palace when they were both there.

malika
27-12-2010, 10:41
Marduk was never at the Imperial Palace, Kol Badar was. Marduk is known to resent this.

Lord Asgul
27-12-2010, 11:37
I think this project is a bit crazy...but I would love to do it...if I had the funds...manpower...time-distortion device...cloning machinery...

Nazguire
28-12-2010, 02:47
Marduk was never at the Imperial Palace, Kol Badar was. Marduk is known to resent this.

Either way, proves my point that the Word Bearers were at Terra.

the Council of Six
28-12-2010, 23:59
Crazy project!

Such a big battle... Posted on YT it needs to be beautiful. Make the things right: what about the table?
First, the Palace being on the Himalaya, ya need to make a 28mm scaled Himalaya. I don't know how huge it would be. Rent a hangar.

Then you will need to make the Palace itself. J. Blanche drawings are the best inspiration pictures. I think you can put some LED there and there, smokes and sounds. Why not lasers?

Protagonists and antagonists: I don't think speed painting them is a good idea. Ya need good looking models. Mold lines trimmed, weathering, highlights and stuff.
Don't forget the decals!! Bols team have made some for the HH era Legios.
Or you can hire professional painters for this work.

Good luck! see you in some years

ahem, do you kno what the himalayas will look like in approx.30,000 years?



Is there any way that I can pre-order tickets to this?
I know I'll be long dead but I'm hoping that my great grandchildren will be able to witness this awesome spectacle.

now there's an idea for funding.


Remember this?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.de/mediawiki/images/5/5b/ImperialerPalast.jpg

it's called on the nose, and you just hit it. but ours will be a game, not a diorama.

and btw all you dream crushers are wasting your time.

Nazguire
29-12-2010, 00:15
ahem, do you kno what the himalayas will look like in approx.30,000 years?

Quite similar to how they are now?

the Council of Six
29-12-2010, 00:45
Quite similar to how they are now?

given India's movement, and the time frame of 30,000 years give or take a couple millennia, they should have changed quite a lot.

massey
29-12-2010, 03:43
given India's movement, and the time frame of 30,000 years give or take a couple millennia, they should have changed quite a lot.

You need to go back to science class. Continental plates don't shift that much in that time frame.

the Council of Six
29-12-2010, 04:37
You need to go back to science class. Continental plates don't shift that much in that time frame.

they'll have changed it enough. plus theirs also the fact that not just tectonic plates canchange it, and the Emperor probably gouged out pathways for troops to move (White scars bikes cant scale sheer cliffs) so yes, they probably would have changed.

madd0ct0r
29-12-2010, 04:59
They've also determined that the Himalayan Mountains are still growing higher, at a rate of about 2.4 in/6.1cm per year. That's twice as fast as previously thought. A growth rate of 2.4 in/6.1cm per year doesn't sound like very much. But, if you think about it, that means in the last 26,000 years the Himalayans have risen almost a mile into the upper reaches of the earth's atmosphere!

from:
http://www.extremescience.com/zoom/index.php/earth-records/79-mount-everest

Now, I happen to know there is an upper limit on mountain size using earth rock under earth gravity, and that Everest is thought to be near that limit.

possibly the himalayas are similar, but completely different in detail, perhaps it has become one huge mesa the height of Everest?

Nazguire
29-12-2010, 11:19
they'll have changed it enough. plus theirs also the fact that not just tectonic plates canchange it, and the Emperor probably gouged out pathways for troops to move (White scars bikes cant scale sheer cliffs) so yes, they probably would have changed.

They'll have risen (if they are rising steadily at the rate stated) by a couple of kilometers. Big woop. Nothing the average human mind can really differentiate between.

THough they idea of the Emperor/Mechanicum at the time using 'industrial meltas' to alter the Himalayas isn't far fetched. They did that to Ullanor, so I see your point :)

the Council of Six
30-12-2010, 03:49
the huge mesa idea sounds fun, but really, given all these factors, who thinks thry know what post-Great Crusade himalayas look like or should roughly look like?

Grimstonefire
31-12-2010, 18:44
If you were careful about how you wrote the battles to make them linked, doing 50 x 20,000 pts battles (10,000 per side etc) would certainly be possible.

The terrain for most of these could be very similar imo. You'd probably only need 3 tables. One for the gates, one for the battles outside the palace and one for the inside.

Random crumbling walls, statues, buildings and defence platforms. Maybe a crashed space ship etc.

Could be possible with a lot of time, money and imagination.

You'd only really need to have say 6000pts of space marines and 6000pts CSM (mixed armies between the chapters), same again in allied forces. The huge titans could be represented by 'off battlefield' firing rules. The smaller ones get from FW.

If you were really bothered you could convert 50 different leader models for each side, one for each battle.

Noodle!
31-12-2010, 23:00
You'd put a lot of "dream crushers" to rest if you just gave a brief overview of how you were to accomplish assembling, painting and then playing with 1'000'000 points worth of troops, especially if they're going to represent those chapters, which means a lot of conversions.

Smaller battles? 2k per army listed? Will it happen over a span of 10 years?

madd0ct0r
01-01-2011, 01:57
Buy epic titans. place on 40k sized titan base. explain it is actually that size, it's just a long way off. problem solved

the Council of Six
01-01-2011, 17:13
If you were careful about how you wrote the battles to make them linked, doing 50 x 20,000 pts battles (10,000 per side etc) would certainly be possible.

The terrain for most of these could be very similar imo. You'd probably only need 3 tables. One for the gates, one for the battles outside the palace and one for the inside.

Random crumbling walls, statues, buildings and defence platforms. Maybe a crashed space ship etc.

Could be possible with a lot of time, money and imagination.

You'd only really need to have say 6000pts of space marines and 6000pts CSM (mixed armies between the chapters), same again in allied forces. The huge titans could be represented by 'off battlefield' firing rules. The smaller ones get from FW.

If you were really bothered you could convert 50 different leader models for each side, one for each battle.

i like the idea, but i was thinking make fewer battles with more points. Since we'll most likely be doing the most important parts, i'd like to know what battles NEED to be there. i've got the Lion's Gate spaceport, the battle at the Eternity Gate, and thats it.

TrooperTino
02-01-2011, 09:36
some smaller scale battles representing the rampaging chaos hordes on terra butchering civilians...

a battle around a crashed troop ship

more battles involving fortress walls to represent the many defences of the palace... more than the Eternity gate and Eternity walls that I know of is the "shadow gate" or something similar, where the dead had to be removed with big machines to make way for following troops, or the last gate, the "Ultimate gate" (translated from german "Schattentor" and "das Ultimative Tor")

tunnel fighting

street fighting

the palace gardens

and there was this orbital structure that was crashed into the renegade army, posiibility for boarding and tunnel fighting

and of course the war in the webway behind the golden throne

the Council of Six
03-01-2011, 20:02
some smaller scale battles representing the rampaging chaos hordes on terra butchering civilians...

a battle around a crashed troop ship

more battles involving fortress walls to represent the many defences of the palace... more than the Eternity gate and Eternity walls that I know of is the "shadow gate" or something similar, where the dead had to be removed with big machines to make way for following troops, or the last gate, the "Ultimate gate" (translated from german "Schattentor" and "das Ultimative Tor")

tunnel fighting

street fighting

the palace gardens

and there was this orbital structure that was crashed into the renegade army, posiibility for boarding and tunnel fighting

and of course the war in the webway behind the golden throne

i think the webway one was more of a battle of minds than a physical battle. as for the rest, ill need a second opinion to confirm this.

Mannimarco
03-01-2011, 20:17
i think the webway one was more of a battle of minds than a physical battle. as for the rest, ill need a second opinion to confirm this.

There was definitely a physical battle, the Horus Heresy artbook shows Custodes inside the webway fighting daemons.

the Council of Six
03-01-2011, 23:07
There was definitely a physical battle, the Horus Heresy artbook shows Custodes inside the webway fighting daemons.

one individual?

Nazguire
03-01-2011, 23:22
one individual?

No the Custodes, the Emperor and (I think) the Silent Sisterhood fought in the Webway to hold back the daemons that were pouring out of there after Magnus the Red (trying to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal) destroyed the seals that held them back.

Mannimarco
04-01-2011, 16:52
Theres some pretty nice pics in the book such as that sister facing off against a bloodthirster that has breached the webway and a custodes flying rhino

Stormfather
04-01-2011, 20:12
People probably said that Miniatur Wunderland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniatur_Wunderland) wasn't possible either.

I think what you need to consider, however, is that Rome, Miniatur Wunderland, and a 40k Assault on the Emperor's Palace were not built in a day. Or a year.

It will take you years to build it (battlefield and all those marines). It will take up a lot of space. It will consume a great deal of money, and an even greater deal of your time. As you progress, your skills will improve, and you will want to go back and redo sections that you did earlier. You will have to decide whether to do so, consuming more time and money, or continue forward. For every miniatur wunderland or 10,000 point 40k army, there are 50 of them that died halfway to completion, due to changing circumstances and fluctuating interest and money.

A good plan is absolutely mandatory. Work it out in steps, each one yielding a finished and usable project. Don't build 10,000 points of space marines. Build a functional 1,000 point army list. Then expand it to 1500, 2000, 3000, and beyond. Don't make the gates of heaven or the golden throne your first terrain project, try a smaller thing that can later be implemented into the bigger work.

Surely the Imperial Palace had a spaceport attached? And the battle for the spaceport was a major part of it? A spaceport (GW Aquila Landers + Space Port (http://www.matakishi.com/buildingentebbe.htm) + Random Gothic Bits + Creativity) could be a start.

For example: I wanted to make a 4x4 'battleboard' based on the Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 level 'Afghan.' I started with GW's crashed Aquila Lander spacecraft, building it on a small, 1' diameter piece of foamboard. Then I build a pair of bunkers, an opium farm, some concrete walkways, a destroyed rhino, and a sandbag emplacement. I work on it when I want to, and shelf it in my storage unit when I don't feel like working on it for a month. A year later, I've got all the details done and I'm working on the landscape. Until it's finished, I have about 6 usable terrain pieces.

() Edited for grammer and clarification.

bound for glory
05-01-2011, 18:38
let me add my .2 cents to your idea.
before i went into the army, i belonged to an american civil war club. i'm a history teacher now, and the acw was always a passion of mine. we, as a club, decided to put togeather the complete order of battle for gettysburg. we used the game JOHNNY REB whit a figure scale of one (1) 15mm figure equled twentyfive(25) real soldiers. each unit was made up of 5 stands(the regiment being the main unit) per regiment. each stand had between 2 and 9 figures(representing 200 to 900 men). each person in our club had a corp to paint and organise. my corp, the confederate 3rd, had 64 regiments. and consider that the average regimental strenght was 400(20 figures), that was a hell of alot of painting. the money put into my corp was small compared to the GW hobby. i would buy bags of 100 15mm figures for $15. but it was still alot of money. we had the local hobby shop as a sponsore, we had very commited members. it took almost 4 years, and when it finaly collapesed under its own weight, a few people still wer'ent done(me and a few others were painting for the slow pokes). by that time, people had, well, lost interest. real life gets in the way. i was going to collage and working full time(and getting in condition to join the army). 2 guys got married. one friend had a bad divorce). my best friend just said to me, one night when i was tring to keep the club togeather, "theres got to be more to life that this". and thats how long term projects many times workout.
my only, and best advice, is just start out in managable bits. i was in a very dedicated history club. with adults. with jobs and money to put into this project. and the attack on terra makes gettyburg look like a bar fight. this took 4 years and it NEVER HAPPENED. set your sights lower, young man. you'll be glad you did...

Pontiff
06-01-2011, 22:24
Right I didnt want to say this earlier but here's my little burst of 'reality' to the project.

As a few of you know I used to run events at GW's Warhammer World for *years*. I used to do the content programming for Games Day UK for the year 2002 to 2005 (It was me who got rid of big displays and put in mega battles... it was also me who banned rubbish costumes ;) )... I organised *huge* battles for Warhammer LOTR, 40k etc, I helped design and orchestrate *massive* set piece big displays for a show with 8000 gamers at it and *hundreds* of staff working for me.

Now the point is, i had probably the *biggest ammount of resource* you could possibly have at that time. I had the GW HQ head office staff and over 100 stores... I had UNLIMITED access to minis to make these things happen and a *lot* of manpower, I could say 'right we're going to do a mega battle of the Damocles Gulf Campaign'... but i tell you now the only time i'd have suggested doing the SEIGE OF TERRA IN ITS ENTIRITY would be if someone had spiked my coffee with PCP.

If you worked for me then and came up with this... after i'd picked myself up from the floor laughing I'd want to see a *really really* good plan as to how on earth you'd make it happen even with all of GW UK behind you. I think everyones been very polite and its a fantastic dream to have but I'd love to know what odds the bookies would ever give you on this happening :)

the Council of Six
06-01-2011, 22:35
People probably said that Miniatur Wunderland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniatur_Wunderland) wasn't possible either.

I think what you need to consider, however, is that Rome, Miniatur Wunderland, and a 40k Assault on the Emperor's Palace were not built in a day. Or a year.

It will take you years to build it (battlefield and all those marines). It will take up a lot of space. It will consume a great deal of money, and an even greater deal of your time. As you progress, your skills will improve, and you will want to go back and redo sections that you did earlier. You will have to decide whether to do so, consuming more time and money, or continue forward. For every miniatur wunderland or 10,000 point 40k army, there are 50 of them that died halfway to completion, due to changing circumstances and fluctuating interest and money.

A good plan is absolutely mandatory. Work it out in steps, each one yielding a finished and usable project. Don't build 10,000 points of space marines. Build a functional 1,000 point army list. Then expand it to 1500, 2000, 3000, and beyond. Don't make the gates of heaven or the golden throne your first terrain project, try a smaller thing that can later be implemented into the bigger work.

Surely the Imperial Palace had a spaceport attached? And the battle for the spaceport was a major part of it? A spaceport (GW Aquila Landers + Space Port (http://www.matakishi.com/buildingentebbe.htm) + Random Gothic Bits + Creativity) could be a start.

For example: I wanted to make a 4x4 'battleboard' based on the Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 level 'Afghan.' I started with GW's crashed Aquila Lander spacecraft, building it on a small, 1' diameter piece of foamboard. Then I build a pair of bunkers, an opium farm, some concrete walkways, a destroyed rhino, and a sandbag emplacement. I work on it when I want to, and shelf it in my storage unit when I don't feel like working on it for a month. A year later, I've got all the details done and I'm working on the landscape. Until it's finished, I have about 6 usable terrain pieces.

() Edited for grammer and clarification.

i really want to go to Miniatur Wunderland. Also, is opium even legal in the Imperium in the 41st millennium? but other than that i think you're right.

Pontiff
06-01-2011, 22:43
Also, is opium even legal in the Imperium in the 41st millennium? but other than that i think you're right.

A rose by any other name.....


While it wont be called Opium, Heroin, Smack or any similar name you bet there will be a hive world 'stim' called 'crash', 'dreamzone' 'khole' or similar with the same effects and refined from some innocent flower or fungus...

In fact didnt necromunda have several different types of drugs?

Their will be an opium somewhere in a galazy of a billion worlds.. and someone to grow it and someone to peddle it to the weak...

the Council of Six
06-01-2011, 22:48
Right I didnt want to say this earlier but here's my little burst of 'reality' to the project.

As a few of you know I used to run events at GW's Warhammer World for *years*. I used to do the content programming for Games Day UK for the year 2002 to 2005 (It was me who got rid of big displays and put in mega battles... it was also me who banned rubbish costumes ;) )... I organised *huge* battles for Warhammer LOTR, 40k etc, I helped design and orchestrate *massive* set piece big displays for a show with 8000 gamers at it and *hundreds* of staff working for me.

Now the point is, i had probably the *biggest ammount of resource* you could possibly have at that time. I had the GW HQ head office staff and over 100 stores... I had UNLIMITED access to minis to make these things happen and a *lot* of manpower, I could say 'right we're going to do a mega battle of the Damocles Gulf Campaign'... but i tell you now the only time i'd have suggested doing the SEIGE OF TERRA IN ITS ENTIRITY would be if someone had spiked my coffee with PCP.

If you worked for me then and came up with this... after i'd picked myself up from the floor laughing I'd want to see a *really really* good plan as to how on earth you'd make it happen even with all of GW UK behind you. I think everyones been very polite and its a fantastic dream to have but I'd love to know what odds the bookies would ever give you on this happening :)

ahaha... i don't think you realize just how stubborn i am. i'll make it work, im gonna make it big, and that's going to fund it, even if i do sound completely crazy right now, which i know i do. i've looked at what i could do with the money i'll make. Bentleys, Helicopters, private jet, but i feel this is more my style. with 4 really good sources of income, i think i'm set.

Pontiff
06-01-2011, 22:51
Humour me, show me a skeleton plan with some objectives and a timescale :)

the Council of Six
06-01-2011, 23:05
Humour me, show me a skeleton plan with some objectives and a timescale :)

to be honest me and my friend are still disagreeing what exactly the objectives should be, or decided whether we're splitting it into several battles. emails dont go very fast between us.

but if you still insist on disbelieving be then if i end up giving this up then you have every right under the sun to say "i told u so", but as it stands now, im not giving up this dream, im monomaniacal about this game but not enough so that i don't know how to fund it. with the right tools i'll be happy to get this done, even if my friend is likely not to help with the modelling.

So go ahead, thow everything you've got at me.


A rose by any other name.....


While it wont be called Opium, Heroin, Smack or any similar name you bet there will be a hive world 'stim' called 'crash', 'dreamzone' 'khole' or similar with the same effects and refined from some innocent flower or fungus...

In fact didnt necromunda have several different types of drugs?

Their will be an opium somewhere in a galazy of a billion worlds.. and someone to grow it and someone to peddle it to the weak...

well, Opium itself is already on Terra, and i was only asking if it was legal.

Major_Manny
06-01-2011, 23:57
Ahhh, this thread is funny! I can't believe council is still going on about it!

the Council of Six
07-01-2011, 00:33
Ahhh, this thread is funny! I can't believe council is still going on about it!

is that a problem?

Nazguire
07-01-2011, 01:56
ahaha... i don't think you realize just how stubborn i am. i'll make it work, im gonna make it big, and that's going to fund it, even if i do sound completely crazy right now, which i know i do. i've looked at what i could do with the money i'll make. Bentleys, Helicopters, private jet, but i feel this is more my style. with 4 really good sources of income, i think i'm set.

Curious as to what occupation you think you'll be making such good money from.

Good troll is good.

negZero
07-01-2011, 02:03
ahaha... i don't think you realize just how stubborn i am. i'll make it work, im gonna make it big, and that's going to fund it, even if i do sound completely crazy right now, which i know i do. i've looked at what i could do with the money i'll make. Bentleys, Helicopters, private jet, but i feel this is more my style. with 4 really good sources of income, i think i'm set.

Making something big doesn't make cash magically appear especially since people would want there money before you even glued together your first mini for this. Also it takes more then money for you to be able to make anything you listed namely an engineering background.

Londinium
07-01-2011, 02:15
(It was me who got rid of big displays

Ignoring the lunacy of the OP, I miss those big displays. I still remember the first one I saw shortly after starting the hobby of the Brets vs Lizardmen during the whole Antioch worldwide campaign :(

bound for glory
07-01-2011, 02:53
looks to me like someone is already using opium... go to rehab, buddy. you're high.

massey
07-01-2011, 03:43
to be honest me and my friend are still disagreeing what exactly the objectives should be, or decided whether we're splitting it into several battles. emails dont go very fast between us.

He doesn't mean objectives for the game. He means objectives for putting it together. What is your timetable? How many miniatures are you going to have ready to go four months from now? One year from now? What is your source of income? When are you going to put this together?

I already know the answer to these questions, but humor him.


but if you still insist on disbelieving be then if i end up giving this up then you have every right under the sun to say "i told u so", but as it stands now, im not giving up this dream, im monomaniacal about this game but not enough so that i don't know how to fund it. with the right tools i'll be happy to get this done, even if my friend is likely not to help with the modelling.

So go ahead, thow everything you've got at me.

I take it you're about 14.

I remember when I was a little kid, and I asked how big a trillion was. My mom told me that it was so big, that if you started counting the day you were born, you'd never live to make it to a trillion. Upon hearing this, my cousin (who was never very bright) began counting "One, two, three..." He was probably about 14 at the time (he's older than I am). You've got about as much chance of making it as he did.

By the way, if you counted one number every second, beginning now, you'll reach a trillion sometime around the Age of Apostasy. Good luck.

madprophet
07-01-2011, 03:46
I decided, when I was young and foolish, that I would model an entire Guard regiment. I managed to build 2 infantry companies, a regimental artillery section, a light armor company, a recon company and a regimental HQ (complete with band and hospital). I can field any given company in my TO&E but no more than a reinforced battalion at any one time.

It has taken me 20 years to get this far (albeit I also built a tyranid, space marine, chaos marine, ork and tau army each to 2000 points as well).

I haven't given up on my regiment because I really do like the guard but I have no illusions about ever really finishing it.

the Council of Six
07-01-2011, 20:53
He doesn't mean objectives for the game. He means objectives for putting it together. What is your timetable? How many miniatures are you going to have ready to go four months from now? One year from now? What is your source of income? When are you going to put this together?

I already know the answer to these questions, but humor him.



I take it you're about 14.

I remember when I was a little kid, and I asked how big a trillion was. My mom told me that it was so big, that if you started counting the day you were born, you'd never live to make it to a trillion. Upon hearing this, my cousin (who was never very bright) began counting "One, two, three..." He was probably about 14 at the time (he's older than I am). You've got about as much chance of making it as he did.

By the way, if you counted one number every second, beginning now, you'll reach a trillion sometime around the Age of Apostasy. Good luck.

15 actually, not that it matters. and who said i had to count by ones, not hundred billions, ill finish in 10 seconds.

I really am not sure what timetables are or what the objectives question is asking really. as for how many models will be ready at these intervals, we need to decide how many we need to make total first. Source of income will be Arcitectural company, Stockmarketing, the online games me and my other friends are making, and Manga comics, plus whatever my opponent plans to do after college. We'll begin the real project after the both of us are out of college. We will have regular meetings to work on the scenery and models. This is assumed to be finished between a generalized time frame of between 2040 and 2060, but a better answer when we know just how much there is to do.


looks to me like someone is already using opium... go to rehab, buddy. you're high.

too late, already went and came back for depression.


I decided, when I was young and foolish, that I would model an entire Guard regiment. I managed to build 2 infantry companies, a regimental artillery section, a light armor company, a recon company and a regimental HQ (complete with band and hospital). I can field any given company in my TO&E but no more than a reinforced battalion at any one time.

It has taken me 20 years to get this far (albeit I also built a tyranid, space marine, chaos marine, ork and tau army each to 2000 points as well).

I haven't given up on my regiment because I really do like the guard but I have no illusions about ever really finishing it.

was there a point in that as to reasons why i should stop or perhaps suggestions as to how to go about it?

Garven Dreis
07-01-2011, 21:10
I'm going to second bound for glory here, and make a 'representative' force. I still don't think it's at all feasible to recreate the Siege of Terra in it's entirety, all though I believe it'd be fun to cover important stages. Just remember, ALL the Legions WEREN'T attacking at the SAME place at the SAME time, so in essence, what you can do is just have about a 3,000 or 4,000 point (If you must do apocalypse) army and just adapt the 'Black Crusade' scenario in the Battle Missions book.

MarshalFaust
07-01-2011, 21:18
I might owe you an apology. I had previously assumed that you were just trolling for the hell of it but im not so sure anymore. you really are bats**t crazy for thinking you have a chance of pulling this off. I dont like crapping on other peoples dreams but somewhere along the line you have to accept what is feasible and what isn't. I hope for your sake you realize this sooner rather than later before you sink so much time, energy and resources into this pipedream that it has consumed your life and you find yourself alone with no real friends to speak of except your little toy soldiers.

You would literally have an easier time building yourself a rocketship and launching yourself into orbit than realizing this dream. if you really are so driven I would encourage you to focus your drive and passion to some endeavor that benefits society in some way. I promise you that your life would be 100x more fulfilling than attempting to play the biggest tabletop wargame ever that very few people have even heard about in the first place.

bound for glory
07-01-2011, 22:28
you will forget this dream when you start dreaming of girls.

Mannimarco
07-01-2011, 22:39
This thread has actually reminded me of an old mega display I once saw (no it wasnt some random guy, it may have been a group of GW stores for a games day display) and Id love to see some pics of it again for nostalgia.

Anybody remember that old WHFB mega display where a huge undead swarm was attacking an Empire villiage?

IIRC there was a large docks area with dozens of zombies coming out of the water, packs of dire wolves over running a hellblaster emplacement, halbadiers tring to hold an alleyway against a horde of skeletons and a sisters of sigmar fort over a cut rope bridge with lots of bats coming out of the canyon.

Now that was a display.

bound for glory
07-01-2011, 22:40
i should'nt have made the above post. but my point was,well, when you feel your first boob...

bound for glory
07-01-2011, 22:42
that was in a white dwarf. it was a vampire counts army attack on a town. i have that mag somewhere. give me a bit and i can find it for you.

Mannimarco
07-01-2011, 22:46
Cheers, Ive got hundreds of white dwarves and was hoping there might be pics of it out there on the web somewhere.

might be an idea to stop flaming the guy eh? Hes already been called a troll and here you are calling him a virgin and possibly gay. Dont think you should have made your above post? You can always delete it if you like.

Is it an unrealistic goal? Yeah probably but why dont we cut the guy some slack and let him come to that conclusion on his own without insulting him. This project may be outside the price range of pretty much everybody but heres somthing that isnt: a little civility.

bound for glory
07-01-2011, 23:07
easy there, mannimarco. i did'nt really mean to imply he a virgin or gay(not that theres anything wrong with that). i was just saying, when he starts dating, he will MOSTLIKLY forget about this pipe dream. might then again, he may not.
and hey, council! do it in epic scale. then you can use all the cool things you won;t find in 28mm. no offense meant, brother.

the Council of Six
07-01-2011, 23:26
you will forget this dream when you start dreaming of girls.

suprise!!!! i has GF already:D and i already do occasionally dream about that, and this game is still what im gonna do, mainly because none of u even acknowledge that the reason for this thread is so it WILL be feasible and reasonable. ive seen people who are pulling off 60,000 pts easy so i was going a bit bigger than that.

oh, and i have the strictest parents and a smart mind, i am and plan to continue to be for a few more years, a virgin, and i'm bi so yeah, no offense taken.

Garven Dreis
07-01-2011, 23:31
I really think you should probably still just downsize the scale though, I'm not against the idea itself, as I own a small contingent of Heresy-Era Iron Warriors, but seriously, I think the awesomeness this could be will be lost in the sheer size and tediousness of your project currently.

bound for glory
07-01-2011, 23:31
go forth and be strong. terry tibbs

Pontiff
07-01-2011, 23:32
This thread has actually reminded me of an old mega display I once saw (no it wasnt some random guy, it may have been a group of GW stores for a games day display) and Id love to see some pics of it again for nostalgia.

Anybody remember that old WHFB mega display where a huge undead swarm was attacking an Empire villiage?

IIRC there was a large docks area with dozens of zombies coming out of the water, packs of dire wolves over running a hellblaster emplacement, halbadiers tring to hold an alleyway against a horde of skeletons and a sisters of sigmar fort over a cut rope bridge with lots of bats coming out of the canyon.

Now that was a display.

Vengeance of the Vampire i think we called it.

Mega displays were awesome, they were breathtaking but they were also ridiculously time consuming for the company and at the end of the event were just this huge 'thing' that didnt actually do anything... you just put three or four of the best in warhammer world.

At the time warhammer world was justa squash court with a shop attached that sold the damaged blisters and boxs cheap. Matt and the guys had a lot of time free to make a big display, we could also ask each store to provide '30 zombies and a chariot each' for example. It was *feasable* but also as said a lot of resource for a static 'wow'.

My proposal at the time was that we were GAMES workshop and the big wow at GAMES day shoudl be a a big bloomin game! I thought it much better to put on games so epic you couldnt do them yourselves even in big games clubs that would still be a spectacle due to their size but also YOU the games day customer could be part of it...

It also meant my decision to 'zone' the hall into warhammer, 40k, lotr and 'hobby' meant that each zone could have a focal point and that you didnt have the old case of the display being ace if you like warhammer but uterly useless if you only cared about 40k. Something for everyone really.

The added bonus was that after each mega battle we had several thousand minis painted up as a company resource that coudl either be pooled or go back to their stores whereas in the old days you'd if you were lucky be able to hack off the minis off a display set to be binned and rebase a few of the better ones (many were shockingly painted as they were in the back gorund of a hoarde).

I personally saw a 30 METRE LONG battle of the last alliance for LOTR with thousands of minis a side that you could actually play in as more inspirational for the event and hobby than a big diorama that was essentially the same thing but static.

That was my thinking at the time when i made those changes and to be fair i still stick by it.

the Council of Six
07-01-2011, 23:33
go forth and be strong. terry tibbs

huh????????????


Vengeance of the Vampire i think we called it.

Mega displays were awesome, they were breathtaking but they were also ridiculously time consuming for the company and at the end of the event were just this huge 'thing' that didnt actually do anything... you just put three or four of the best in warhammer world.

At the time warhammer world was justa squash court with a shop attached that sold the damaged blisters and boxs cheap. Matt and the guys had a lot of time free to make a big display, we could also ask each store to provide '30 zombies and a chariot each' for example. It was *feasable* but also as said a lot of resource for a static 'wow'.

My proposal at the time was that we were GAMES workshop and the big wow at GAMES day shoudl be a a big bloomin game! I thought it much better to put on games so epic you couldnt do them yourselves even in big games clubs that would still be a spectacle due to their size but also YOU the games day customer could be part of it...

It also meant my decision to 'zone' the hall into warhammer, 40k, lotr and 'hobby' meant that each zone could have a focal point and that you didnt have the old case of the display being ace if you like warhammer but uterly useless if you only cared about 40k. Something for everyone really.

The added bonus was that after each mega battle we had several thousand minis painted up as a company resource that coudl either be pooled or go back to their stores whereas in the old days you'd if you were lucky be able to hack off the minis off a display set to be binned and rebase a few of the better ones (many were shockingly painted as they were in the back gorund of a hoarde).

I personally saw a 30 METRE LONG battle of the last alliance for LOTR with thousands of minis a side that you could actually play in as more inspirational for the event and hobby than a big diorama that was essentially the same thing but static.

That was my thinking at the time when i made those changes and to be fair i still stick by it.

so ur the one who made GAMES day that much better eh? also i looked at Vengeance of the Vampire after reading this and whoda thought i'd find Twilight.

Pontiff
08-01-2011, 00:08
Better is debatable :)

I made quite a few controversial decisions about the show which i personally felt were for the best, not everyone liked them but on the whole to my knowledge its still pretty much done to the new plan we made up then so must have done something right :)

Having said that i've not been for a few years.

the Council of Six
08-01-2011, 00:17
Better is debatable :)

I made quite a few controversial decisions about the show which i personally felt were for the best, not everyone liked them but on the whole to my knowledge its still pretty much done to the new plan we made up then so must have done something right :)

Having said that i've not been for a few years.

so anyway do u have any suggestions that havent been said yet as to how i can make this a fairly large game while still being able to pull off a battle at a far larger scale than the game?

Pontiff
08-01-2011, 00:24
No the most sensible suggestions have been made.

Pick key features of the key battles, concentrate on them rather than the impossible big picture.

Buy the Horus Heresy board game... play that for 90 per cent of the battles, do the really cool ones that crop up with 40k tbh...

When we did the albion warhammer mega battle we had a huge board that represented the whole continent/island and then eight or so tables around it each represneting key strategic features. 'army groups' were moved on the big map and when they came into contact they fought on the nearest feature table to their loaction IIRC.. it was like eight years ago so Its a bit hazy..

the Council of Six
08-01-2011, 00:29
No the most sensible suggestions have been made.

Pick key features of the key battles, concentrate on them rather than the impossible big picture.

Buy the Horus Heresy board game... play that for 90 per cent of the battles, do the really cool ones that crop up with 40k tbh...

When we did the albion warhammer mega battle we had a huge board that represented the whole continent/island and then eight or so tables around it each represneting key strategic features. 'army groups' were moved on the big map and when they came into contact they fought on the nearest feature table to their loaction IIRC.. it was like eight years ago so Its a bit hazy..

Planetary Empires might be of use here. that and where would i go to get the HH game? by the way you just reminded me that i have an unfinished interplanetary campaign rulebook i need to finish.

Pontiff
08-01-2011, 00:41
Waterstones sell the HH game, as do a lot of independant games shops.

Its by fantasy flight and while not cheap (between 60 and 90 quid depending on where you get it) its good fun, has ood minis and is probably a very good way of handling the *strategic* elements of what you want to do while you handle the *tactical* on the 40k battle.

40ks a company battle game (more so with recent developments) but its not really designed to cope with battles of more than 3000 - 4000 points a side anyway. (the old designers notes used to specifically tell you that it fell down if you had battles that were too big and didnt limit the ammount of characters and tanks).

Here you go.. £60... an utter BARGAIN compared to buying a million points of marines :)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fantasy-Flight-Games-GW02-Heresy/dp/1589946847

the Council of Six
08-01-2011, 01:07
Waterstones sell the HH game, as do a lot of independant games shops.

Its by fantasy flight and while not cheap (between 60 and 90 quid depending on where you get it) its good fun, has ood minis and is probably a very good way of handling the *strategic* elements of what you want to do while you handle the *tactical* on the 40k battle.

40ks a company battle game (more so with recent developments) but its not really designed to cope with battles of more than 3000 - 4000 points a side anyway. (the old designers notes used to specifically tell you that it fell down if you had battles that were too big and didnt limit the ammount of characters and tanks).

Here you go.. £60... an utter BARGAIN compared to buying a million points of marines :)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fantasy-Flight-Games-GW02-Heresy/dp/1589946847

hmm still sketchy as to whether or not i'd be saving... but thanks

TrooperTino
08-01-2011, 18:00
i think the webway one was more of a battle of minds than a physical battle. as for the rest, ill need a second opinion to confirm this.

I am not sure why you need a second opinion for things I got right off a pdf from the GW page, but well... go for it.

And the Webway battle had even Adeptus mechanicus forces involved... Horus Heresy Collected Visions speaks of the Emperors "army" that secured the tunnels nearest to the golden throne gateway... AM labour forces that constructed armoured seals at strategic points in the webway. The war in the webway was both physical and psychical.

the Council of Six
08-01-2011, 18:47
I am not sure why you need a second opinion for things I got right off a pdf from the GW page, but well... go for it.

And the Webway battle had even Adeptus mechanicus forces involved... Horus Heresy Collected Visions speaks of the Emperors "army" that secured the tunnels nearest to the golden throne gateway... AM labour forces that constructed armoured seals at strategic points in the webway. The war in the webway was both physical and psychical.

you never said where you got it from when you stated it.

bound for glory
08-01-2011, 18:57
can this be let go now?

TrooperTino
08-01-2011, 22:58
of course... this isn't a real discussion about a "possible" replay of the siege of terra anyway.

bound for glory
08-01-2011, 23:12
you got that right, trooper. if the guy would have said he and a large group of friends were gonna do it in epic scale, it might have been beleivable...but no, not really.

Sgt John Keel
08-01-2011, 23:32
that was in a white dwarf. it was a vampire counts army attack on a town. i have that mag somewhere. give me a bit and i can find it for you.


Cheers, Ive got hundreds of white dwarves and was hoping there might be pics of it out there on the web somewhere.


I think there are some pictures of the thing in the 6th edition Vampire Counts army book, but the quality isn't excellent.

the Council of Six
09-01-2011, 04:24
well, ive got the Size issue sorted out, now for a group conclusion to what the MUST HAVE battles are.

bound for glory
09-01-2011, 04:54
your imagination vs reality would be the first important battle, imho...

BigbyWolf
09-01-2011, 16:38
well, ive got the Size issue sorted out, now for a group conclusion to what the MUST HAVE battles are.

What's the rush? You've got a 40-50 year timescale.

Nazguire
09-01-2011, 17:20
Maybe he wishes it to happen before the Siege of Terra actually happens. Just saying.

Gdolkin
10-01-2011, 00:25
Hell, why not do Prospero, Isstvan V and Caliban as warm-ups ;)

the Council of Six
10-01-2011, 21:56
Hell, why not do Prospero, Isstvan V and Caliban as warm-ups ;)

there's an idea. now if only i understood imho

madd0ct0r
11-01-2011, 00:16
Prospero - Space Wolves tried to wipe out the Thousand Sons.

Isstvan V - The first blow of the Heresy. The loyal remmenants of the traitor legions, and a couple of 'goody' legions are ambushed and severly damaged. Cue the race back to Terra

Caliban - Night Haunter returns to his home planet. Finds the population has gone extreme mafia to the point of rebellion. He flips, slaughters the entire planet and then just carries on butchering his way through worlds.

Nazguire
11-01-2011, 00:47
Prospero - Space Wolves tried to wipe out the Thousand Sons.

Isstvan V - The first blow of the Heresy. The loyal remmenants of the traitor legions, and a couple of 'goody' legions are ambushed and severly damaged. Cue the race back to Terra

Caliban - Night Haunter returns to his home planet. Finds the population has gone extreme mafia to the point of rebellion. He flips, slaughters the entire planet and then just carries on butchering his way through worlds.

You mean Nostramo, not Caliban

FlashGordon
11-01-2011, 03:52
What is this? i don't even.... *Facepalm*

madd0ct0r
11-01-2011, 08:56
I do mean Nostramo.

Caliban would be the DA civil war then right?

To me at least Caliban will always be the half human /more then human oppressed slave from 'The Tempest'. Quite a good metaphor for the Emporer (Prospero the character) vs Horus. Actually. I ma have to pursue that line of thought.

Aun'aart'al
11-01-2011, 09:35
I have made the suggestion to the OP that this setting could simply be replaced with another, such as a particular sector-wide battle that I and a few others are currently organizing (set to open summer or winter 2011), however we will always need more players and people to generally help

.. however the OP has yet to respond, so I thought I'd post the option for any interested in a series of Łber-battles

Duke_of_Krondor
11-01-2011, 11:53
Rather than tell you you're crazy (which given your self-confessed stubbornness will likely not work), I'll try and help :-)

Experience

One of the things I've read on these forums about big games are them not living up the expectations. Even the best plans can fall apart so I'd suggest you get practice in dealing with larger and larger battles (which should be possible as you build your collection). One of the worst things would be to accomplish this and then it sucking. You'll also need to gain experience using the army and its component pieces, otherwise you'll be kicking yourselves or giving your opponent a poor game.

Set goals and tolerances

What quality do you want to paint to? When do you want your first companies, legions, etc completed by? Make sure you keep on track with goals and make them long term (given your time scales) 6-12 months per goal seems about right (depending on how big it is)

Consider your risks!

Given how much the hobby has changed since it's inception (just considering 40k here) how much will the system change by then? Will you still be able to buy these miniatures? Will it all become computer based? Played on holo boards? Will the miniatures in fact be tiny robots that can walk themselves? Some of that was light-hearted and I'm sure a lot of the hobby will survive intact but how much? It's a big timescale, longer than major defence projects that often get outpaced by technology and the world around it.

Time

You've got a current plan to fund the project but it revolved around four (iirc) pillars....how much time will you need to devote to these different things to get an appropriate return? I make a decent salary and can buy a decent amount of hobby each month whilst maintaining a healthy life outside of GW, a (very understanding and lovely) wife but I'm not terribly career focused and that seems to be something common among GW gamers...we work to live (i.e. we work to provide money to fund our lives rather than being workaholics). I'm sure there are exceptions to this rule but I can't imagine them taking on a project of this scale with just 2 people. Just consider how much things have changed over the last 25 years and how much things may change over the next 30-50....things won't be the same.

Research

Research will help you understand the scale of what you hope to accomplish. If you are serious about this then you'll research it. After that you'll understand what you need to accomplish. Where were the battles? What was the composition of the forces? Who were the major players? These major facts will feed your mini-projects like the Blood Angel presence with Sanguineous?

Have fun

You'll need to have fun between then and now both hobby and non-hobby related. Build up this grand army in smaller sections to give you armies to play with and enjoy the hobby. This thing will potentially take more than 3 times the current length of your life....if all you're doing is working and part of a hobby you will go crazy and probably regret not living your life.

Accept there will be set backs

Over that time you'll encounter opportunities, troubles, disasters and joy. It will happen, it's life. Don't be too rigid in this that you lose something good.

Best of luck to you and I hope you do it. If you want to convince people you are serious, it may be an idea to actually give us an idea of your plan. Currently you are arguing your corner on 'but I will do this' as an argument. Give us an idea of plans and forethought and we may be able to help.

My final point is a suggestion. Whilst this may be awesome for you to take on your friend.....consider sharing the love. Co-ordinating a group of people to accomplish this would allow more people to enjoy the idea and make it much more achievable....I'm not saying you have to but it may help. At least that way youíll be drawing on a pool of existing miniatures and experience.

Finally understand that your perspective will change.

Pontiff
11-01-2011, 16:39
Rather than tell you you're crazy (which given your self-confessed stubbornness will likely not work), I'll try and help :-)



Set goals and tolerances

What quality do you want to paint to? When do you want your first companies, legions, etc completed by? Make sure you keep on track with goals and make them long term (given your time scales) 6-12 months per goal seems about right (depending on how big it is)




Exactly what i meant by 'objectives' to the OP.

Let me give you a project management tip, in the highly unlikely event this comes off you'll need it but it will always do you well.

When making grand plans (especially if they involve others) your plan needs to be SMART

This means

SPECIFIC - Break down the 'siege of terra' into X number of key tasks to be done by your group
MEASURED - what are your success criteria, how will you know its at say 'stage 1' or 'finished'.
AGREED - You all need to be singing from the same songsheet and on board with the plan
REALISTIC - Can you actually pull this off given your time and resources, even if the idea isnt silly the idea of *you* doing it might be
TIME SPECIFIC - You need to set out deadlines for each element and phase. For example 'each player will complete one platoon of marines each month'

Its a *long time* since I was a project manager but its a good rough guide to how its done (i may have part of the acronym slightly wrong there though)

And as the above poster mentions about your life changing...

You're 15 right the odds on you still having the same circle of friends and them all still playing 40k in five years are slim... make it 20 and the odds are astronomical.

I've been playing wargames since I was 12... I'm only in touch with a few guys I knew at school and thats only via facebook, the guys i game with now i met over the last eight or so years and thats really against the odds and becasue we all worked at GW together where clearly *everyone* you know plays Warhammer :)

Jind_Singh
11-01-2011, 16:52
Besides - you won't need the White Scars - they were not defending the Imperial palace - they were out in the surrounding countryside with tank regiments. Khan led his forces and was able to recapture one of the two main space ports so you just need Imperial fists and Blood Angels.

The Emperors palace was constructed by LEVELING Mount Everest and some of the surrounding mountians. The gardens between the 1st walls and the inner palace were parklands - national parks - so the scale of the combat is epic!

To recreate the game your best bet is to rebuild the walls with the doors to the inner palace - it's the one were Sanginious killed a Bloodthrister and held the doors before the Imperials retreated into the palace.

Make the wall sections and use about a 1/4 of the Blood Angel and Imperial Fists legions as the other 3/4 would be spread out through the palace. Use the main traitor legions, World Eaters especially, along with Sons of Horus, Death Gaurd, Thousand Sons, Emperors Children were present on Earth but they were went to were the hives were to do vile things on the general population. There was at least one Titan Legion, Deamons by the fistfull, Imperial Gaurd. I'd forgo the evil Mechanics and leave them be as Titans & Gaurdsman.

It would still be a massive game, at least 25,000 pts per side, but it's a good size, you'll enjoy the drama of it, and you'll not need to rent a 10,000 sq ft warehouse!

Pontiff
11-01-2011, 16:58
Besides - you won't need the White Scars - they were not defending the Imperial palace - they were out in the surrounding countryside with tank regiments. Khan led his forces and was able to recapture one of the two main space ports so you just need Imperial fists and Blood Angels.


I'm not totally sure about that dude... until about a month ago i owned a squad of white scars bikers stright off GWs 'seige of the emperors' display :)

These ones here:

carlisimo
12-01-2011, 03:32
The guy with the largest army in our game store has around 40,000 points of Eldar. He's a single guy with a high paying job, and he's collected that over the course of about 12 years. You'd need 25 of him to field a million points. There are a handful of us who have somewhere in the high teens to low 20s. You'd need about 50 of us to reach a million. And most of those armies are not ones that would have appeared at the battle for Terra.

That actually makes this sound MORE feasible, not less! Surely there are 50-200 people with tons and tons of Space Marines and Chaos Marines who could get together at someone's 1-acre rural home and have at it.

Jind_Singh
12-01-2011, 08:17
I'm not totally sure about that dude... until about a month ago i owned a squad of white scars bikers stright off GWs 'seige of the emperors' display :)

These ones here:

lol, well I'm just going off the White Dwarf that detailed the siege of Terra - they had Fists and Angels holding the palace, the Scars were outside doing lighting fast raids - hence their attack on the Space Port - perhaps there were some few Scars inside the palace also - but as a legion they were not!

Lucifer216
12-01-2011, 09:49
Amusingly enough, 1000,000 points = 250 Imperator class Titans (@ 4000pts each)

Or 400 Warlord Class Titans

Or 1333 Warhound titans (which would cost roughly £400,000 from Forgeworld)

or 66,667 marines (which would cost £153,334).

Aun'aart'al
12-01-2011, 11:22
Amusingly enough, 1000,000 points = 250 Imperator class Titans (@ 4000pts each)

Or 400 Warlord Class Titans

Or 1333 Warhound titans (which would cost roughly £400,000 from Forgeworld)

or 66,667 marines (which would cost £153,334).

Either way, I can just hear GW and FW chanting for this guy to even attempt this :rolleyes:

Bonzai
12-01-2011, 18:51
Here are my thoughts:

In trying to figure out the numbers. The Word Bearers were one of the largest legions, with 100,000 at their peak. Lets be generous, and say that they only lost about 20% of their fighting strength from normal casualties, the purges, and Istivaan. That would leave them with 80,000 marines. They then split their forces in half. Half went to Calth, half went to aid the siege of Terra. So that means that 20,000 tops would be present from the word bearers. If a full company of 100 marines is roughly about 5,000 points, then that would be 1,000,000 points. And that would be just the Word Bearers presence on Terra. Granted, they may have suffered worse casualties than that, but thats a starting point.

Next you need to break up the siege into it's component parts. You had planet fall, the battle of the space port, and ultimately the battle of the gate. Figure out the forces deployed at each battle, and some approximate casualties. Each of legion would have some troops spread out in reserve, guard duty, etc... So it's entirely possible that of the 20,000 or so Word Bearers for example, only 5,000 tops were there for the battle of the Gate. Which would be a more manageable 250,000 points for that legion.

Black Legion, Death Guard, World Eater's, and Emperor's Children were smaller, and must have suffered huge losses during the purge and Istivan. The Emperors Children were smaller in number to begin with, so every loss had to be felt. I am not sure if the Thousand Sons took part, but they were also a small legion, and suffered terribly from the attack on Prospero.

As for the Loyalists... We don't know how big they were, but we do know thier appoximate size at the 2nd founding. The Blood Angels each had 5 successor chapters, which would put their number at 6,000. The White Scars had 4, so that would be 5,000. Imperial Fists also had 4, but keep in mind that they went through the whole Iron Cage incident. They probably had twice as many before that. From there we need to guess what the casualty rate was for the siege. Hard to figure exactly. Figure for the battle of the gate alone is should be some where around 30k men, or about 1.5 million points a side. Probably closer to 2 million points a side.

Mr Carrot
12-01-2011, 19:21
just of marines, factor in the amount of men you can fit in that space (which in wwI would be a corps defensive/offensive) so at least 500 thousand IA and traitors per side, infantry.

Several hundred armoured vehicles can fit in a 1/3 mile front.

massey
12-01-2011, 20:28
Well, those numbers are a little off, and some of your events are out of order (Iron Cage happens after the Heresy ended). But the big thing is, there were more than marines fighting on Terra. There were also guardsmen, probably billions of them. There were probably more guardsmen on Terra than GW has ever produced miniatures for. That's a lot of guys. There would be tens of thousands of demons. There were also titans, and superheavy tanks, ordinatus, all sorts of stuff. You're talking about mega-cannons the size of a game board, a gate to the Imperial palace the size of a garage door, and other massive stuff. Do you have 50 Imperator Titans? No? The whole thing is just too big.

My suggestion to the OP, for a seige of terra game, would be to find a dozen or so players with very large Imperial/Chaos armies. Talk to your local store owner (or one of the players who has a house, preferably with a big ass living room), and build a huge custom terrain piece, preferably something that can sit on the floor. Hopefully something like 20 feet by 20 feet. Aim for 50,000 points per side. Play it out over the course of a 3 or 4 day weekend. Streamline the rules to make it go faster. Put a combat squad of marines on a single monstrous creature base, treat it as a 5 wound marine with extra attacks, etc.

What I have found is that terrain, more than sheer numbers of models, makes a game seem more epic. Big, detailed terrain pieces gives it a feeling of larger scale and importance.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=&pIndex=0&aId=4800010a&multiPageMode=true&start=1

The Space Wolf "Assault on Magnir's Crag" display is awesome. It gives a far greater scope to what appears to be a little 1500 to 2000 point battle. A display about 5 times that size will be awesome. It will also be a lot more impressive than simply a million points worth of marines painted with 3 colors and thrown on the floor. It will be a lot more fun, too. And by bringing in a lot of guys who already have impressive armies, instead of just trying to do it all yourself, you might actually get to enjoy it while you're still excited about 40K. You don't want the project to become so big that you dread it. I remember I picked up about ten thousand points of demons off of some idiot for like $500 (he bought them with some grand dream of building a demonic legion, tried them a few times, decided they sucked, and sold them all). I eventually sold them off because the thought of where I was going to put them all, and how much figure cases were going to cost me, made it more stressful to have them than they were worth.

Keep it reasonable and you can have fun with it. Don't let it turn into something where you're a crazy guy living on an old house on the hill, cackling to yourself at night because you're one step closer to accomplishing your dream.

sic
12-01-2011, 22:53
Well, those numbers are a little off, and some of your events are out of order (Iron Cage happens after the Heresy ended)

Hes talking about numbers at the 2nd founding (so after the Heresy and the Iron cage) as a starting point for figuring out numbers and working backwards to the siege.

We know approximately how many marines survived the Heresy and later battles based on how many chapters the original legions were split into so we can guess how many were at the palace.

Good point about the size of the scenery though. A smaller battle in points on a huge and impressive set piece battlefield could certainly make it look more epic than it actually is.

Its the same with the Diorama of the gates, You only see 2 Titans but we know theres more out there, you could do that with just about everything in the battle as long as you had the main set pieces (Primarchs etc.)

the Council of Six
12-01-2011, 23:47
Rather than tell you you're crazy (which given your self-confessed stubbornness will likely not work), I'll try and help :-)

Experience

One of the things I've read on these forums about big games are them not living up the expectations. Even the best plans can fall apart so I'd suggest you get practice in dealing with larger and larger battles (which should be possible as you build your collection). One of the worst things would be to accomplish this and then it sucking. You'll also need to gain experience using the army and its component pieces, otherwise you'll be kicking yourselves or giving your opponent a poor game.

Set goals and tolerances

What quality do you want to paint to? When do you want your first companies, legions, etc completed by? Make sure you keep on track with goals and make them long term (given your time scales) 6-12 months per goal seems about right (depending on how big it is)

Consider your risks!

Given how much the hobby has changed since it's inception (just considering 40k here) how much will the system change by then? Will you still be able to buy these miniatures? Will it all become computer based? Played on holo boards? Will the miniatures in fact be tiny robots that can walk themselves? Some of that was light-hearted and I'm sure a lot of the hobby will survive intact but how much? It's a big timescale, longer than major defence projects that often get outpaced by technology and the world around it.

Time

You've got a current plan to fund the project but it revolved around four (iirc) pillars....how much time will you need to devote to these different things to get an appropriate return? I make a decent salary and can buy a decent amount of hobby each month whilst maintaining a healthy life outside of GW, a (very understanding and lovely) wife but I'm not terribly career focused and that seems to be something common among GW gamers...we work to live (i.e. we work to provide money to fund our lives rather than being workaholics). I'm sure there are exceptions to this rule but I can't imagine them taking on a project of this scale with just 2 people. Just consider how much things have changed over the last 25 years and how much things may change over the next 30-50....things won't be the same.

Research

Research will help you understand the scale of what you hope to accomplish. If you are serious about this then you'll research it. After that you'll understand what you need to accomplish. Where were the battles? What was the composition of the forces? Who were the major players? These major facts will feed your mini-projects like the Blood Angel presence with Sanguineous?

Have fun

You'll need to have fun between then and now both hobby and non-hobby related. Build up this grand army in smaller sections to give you armies to play with and enjoy the hobby. This thing will potentially take more than 3 times the current length of your life....if all you're doing is working and part of a hobby you will go crazy and probably regret not living your life.

Accept there will be set backs

Over that time you'll encounter opportunities, troubles, disasters and joy. It will happen, it's life. Don't be too rigid in this that you lose something good.

Best of luck to you and I hope you do it. If you want to convince people you are serious, it may be an idea to actually give us an idea of your plan. Currently you are arguing your corner on 'but I will do this' as an argument. Give us an idea of plans and forethought and we may be able to help.

My final point is a suggestion. Whilst this may be awesome for you to take on your friend.....consider sharing the love. Co-ordinating a group of people to accomplish this would allow more people to enjoy the idea and make it much more achievable....I'm not saying you have to but it may help. At least that way youíll be drawing on a pool of existing miniatures and experience.

Finally understand that your perspective will change.

all that glitters is not gold, but after that i'd say that gold isn't the best of all that glitters either. I'm open to requests to join this game and, since i have little experiance with this game as it stands, am also open to tips and tricks as i try to expand my Imperial forces. to be completely honest, we havent given this much forethought, we thought it was a good idea about 3/4 of a year ago and still do, not to say we're not living our lives as well. mine sort of revolves more around GW than his since it's really the only social gathering possible and worthwhile other than lunchtime at High School. Also, piecing together everything everyone's said so far, this shouldnt be nearly the task it would have been. If any of you wish to join the fight let me know, ill see what i can do. This will most likely happen when i get my dream house (it should have a large room specifically for GW games) or sooner if i can find a large Convention center or the like. If people will be joining in each person should be willing to contribute a properly painted army of around maybe 5000 pts seem reasonable? i might be thinking too steeply, but there's always got to be a bar before it can be raised or lowered. I'll need to get my own life going and see how long it takes to get a certain number of miniatures, so i can properly estimate the time it would take. Also i can still use that list of Important Battles, that and some guidelines for Istvaan V, prospero and Nostramo.

Scorpius_78
13-01-2011, 01:38
all that glitters is not gold, but after that i'd say that gold isn't the best of all that glitters either. I'm open to requests to join this game and, since i have little experiance with this game as it stands, am also open to tips and tricks as i try to expand my Imperial forces. to be completely honest, we havent given this much forethought, we thought it was a good idea about 3/4 of a year ago and still do, not to say we're not living our lives as well. mine sort of revolves more around GW than his since it's really the only social gathering possible and worthwhile other than lunchtime at High School. Also, piecing together everything everyone's said so far, this shouldnt be nearly the task it would have been. If any of you wish to join the fight let me know, ill see what i can do. This will most likely happen when i get my dream house (it should have a large room specifically for GW games) or sooner if i can find a large Convention center or the like. If people will be joining in each person should be willing to contribute a properly painted army of around maybe 5000 pts seem reasonable? i might be thinking too steeply, but there's always got to be a bar before it can be raised or lowered. I'll need to get my own life going and see how long it takes to get a certain number of miniatures, so i can properly estimate the time it would take. Also i can still use that list of Important Battles, that and some guidelines for Istvaan V, prospero and Nostramo.

Donít take this the wrong way man. But it sounds like your living in a dream world.

From what I can gather from your last post, your still in high school (nothing wrong with that), but your saying youíve got no other social gatherings worth while or anything like that. Come on man, I mean if 40kís your thing thatís cool nothing wrong with it (I think we all can agree on that) but your talking about getting a house with a 40k room, or ranting out a convention center. Iím sure that once your get out into (dear I say) ďThe Real WorldĒ youíll find that 40k might move down on the list of impotents. I just think you need to get your own priorities strait before planning to spend thousands of dollars on plastic men. I mean your in some of best (even if it might not seem like it now) years of your life.

Now Iím not trying to come off condescending (even though Iím sure some of it came off that way) or as someone trying to tell you how to run your life. Just offering up my two cents thatís all. And if Iím way off base, Please ignore me

bound for glory
13-01-2011, 03:12
get a bad religion cd(no control , against the grain or stranger than fiction). it will change your life. beleive it.

the Council of Six
13-01-2011, 20:53
Don’t take this the wrong way man. But it sounds like your living in a dream world.

From what I can gather from your last post, your still in high school (nothing wrong with that), but your saying you’ve got no other social gatherings worth while or anything like that. Come on man, I mean if 40k’s your thing that’s cool nothing wrong with it (I think we all can agree on that) but your talking about getting a house with a 40k room, or ranting out a convention center. I’m sure that once your get out into (dear I say) “The Real World” you’ll find that 40k might move down on the list of impotents. I just think you need to get your own priorities strait before planning to spend thousands of dollars on plastic men. I mean your in some of best (even if it might not seem like it now) years of your life.

Now I’m not trying to come off condescending (even though I’m sure some of it came off that way) or as someone trying to tell you how to run your life. Just offering up my two cents that’s all. And if I’m way off base, Please ignore me

it's not that it's my whole life (believe me, more often than not i'd rather be playing Adventure games on my consoles or watching new Anime than painting and working on models or playing the game) but it's really the only social gathering because there's no one who speaks English for several miles, i dont have a permit, the only friends i have live so far away i have to schedule meetings, my parents hate driving me much anywhere except to the bus stop, which is still forever away and across a highway, and the people i meet at GW arent total ******, nor are they obsessed with the new outfit they just bought (luckily my gf doesn't do that sort of thing) and to top it off, they treat me like a human being, something that rarely ever happens to me. it's not that i'm monomaniacal to the point i just want to do nothing but play the game, theres just almost nothing else to do. oh and the TVs in my house are either perpetually occupied by my parents shows or too small or fuzzy to do anything with so there you go. and i've only got so many games on my laptop. This is also just one of many games i like in the strategy genre of board games, tabletop games, video games, blah blah blah. I've still got Yu-Gi-Oh cards sitting in my room to duel just in case i can have friends over YU-GI-OH CARDS!!! who even has those anymore!? forgot to mention that i am the one who will be building my house, and i want more than just a fancy generic gaming room in it.

Aun'aart'al
13-01-2011, 21:07
Yeah, I still agree that epic pieces would make more sense than 40k. Cheaper and easier to field more points on a board/table

the Council of Six
13-01-2011, 23:03
Yeah, I still agree that epic pieces would make more sense than 40k. Cheaper and easier to field more points on a board/table

hmm, i see the logic, its solid too. but i still feel i want to go with 40k.

bound for glory
13-01-2011, 23:49
epic moves faster than 40k. whitch is important considering the size of the battle you are planing on doing.

the Council of Six
14-01-2011, 00:37
epic moves faster than 40k. whitch is important considering the size of the battle you are planing on doing.

you mean between 25 and 50,000?

bound for glory
14-01-2011, 00:50
between 25 and 50,000 what? points? i'm saying the game epic plays faster than 40k.

the Council of Six
15-01-2011, 01:08
between 25 and 50,000 what? points? i'm saying the game epic plays faster than 40k.

points yes, i cant believe i didnt say that. anyway, i understand it goes faster, but we just think we might want to play it out on a bigger scale.

Aun'aart'al
15-01-2011, 02:18
points yes, i cant believe i didnt say that. anyway, i understand it goes faster, but we just think we might want to play it out on a bigger scale.

even playing with epic models, a million points is still going to be a lot of models

look, if your typical apocalypse game - say 50,000 points all told for the sake of the argument - takes on average a weekend to play (2-3 days), then you're still looking at 20 weekends to play a million point game like this, should you go with 40k scale, and that's assuming everything is done at the same pace for the whole time; movement, shooting, and assault phases.. and the 50,000 points is usually played by 6-12 people!

please, someone correct me, I'd love to be wrong about the amount of required time this would take!

the Council of Six
15-01-2011, 04:17
even playing with epic models, a million points is still going to be a lot of models

look, if your typical apocalypse game - say 50,000 points all told for the sake of the argument - takes on average a weekend to play (2-3 days), then you're still looking at 20 weekends to play a million point game like this, should you go with 40k scale, and that's assuming everything is done at the same pace for the whole time; movement, shooting, and assault phases.. and the 50,000 points is usually played by 6-12 people!

please, someone correct me, I'd love to be wrong about the amount of required time this would take!

how many times have i now said we are playing 50,000 points total?

madd0ct0r
15-01-2011, 05:12
twice.

I think the battle would work better (in a tactical sense) with epic.
Apocalypse just seems to involve two huge forces rushing at each other shouting. It's not until 2/3rds are dead that gameplay actually comes into it.

and truly epic terrain is easier and dosen't need so much storage space: http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=19663&hilit=hive+cassius

Pontiff
15-01-2011, 10:04
Put very simply play the battle out with the system *designed* for that scale of operations.

You wouldnt play out the whole of D-Day in 28mm would you, you'd play a map based campaign or if you were a bit mad micro armour.

The scale, game mechanics... the whole shebang of epic is desined for this sort of thing... actually its even pushing the Epic game mechanics to their extremems which is why the horus heresy game was written for *strategy* rather than *tactical* decisions.

Rulesets tend to fall apart when used for stuff they are not designed to do. 40 k simply doesnt scale up well at all.

Its initially a plattoon skirmish ruleselt thats been bodged and taped up to be able to just about cope with battalion actions. Its not good at the though by any means.

To use a simpler analogy than Warhammer... . you wouldnt try and take down a wall with a toffee hammer would you , you'd use a sledgehammer...

Eqaully you wouldnt use a chainsaw to do a headswap on a lead figue, you'd use a pair of clippers or a fret saw...

Use the right tool for the job... you cant do everything with a sledgehammer.

Lambda
16-01-2011, 17:32
I could see the Siege of Terra making a truly great RTS video game.

the Council of Six
23-01-2011, 21:27
I could see the Siege of Terra making a truly great RTS video game.

lol

i was thinking of modding a Starcraft 2 game with Thors as Warlords, Battlecruisers as Retribution class battleships, Hellions as hellhounds, obviously, powering down the Ghost to make guardsmen, marines... i have no idea what to make the marines:p. and so on. The Protoss as Eldar (or possibly Necrons) and the zerg as 'nids.

But about what Pontiff said i'll probaly do that then. make 50,000 points or more of 40k and multiple titans into an Epic army. Then use the Horus Heresy map to work out the "Strategic" elements and then use Epic for the "Tactical".

Each one of us will likely need... 10 Epic warhounds, 5 epic reavers 3 epic warlords, and an Epic Emperor class. Each of us will need the Characters of our respective side, probably 50, 100, 500 or 1000 Marine squads, lots of guard. For terrain we will need... the Eternity Gate, the Lion's Gate starport(i think it was Lion's gate, for the White scars one or was it Eternity?) Depending on just how many troops were involved in the ship battle, i might decide to go with a 40k battle. If coonverting the board games confrontations is as easy as it was converting BFG boarding to 40k then this should work out and anticipating curiosity, the reason i converted BFG boarding and hit-and-run attacks into 40k was because im writing a personal rulebook on making Interstellar campaigns in the 41st millennium, involving planet conquering, destroying, research, exploration, indigenous oppression, technological advancement, blah, blah,blah.

Aun'aart'al
25-01-2011, 00:52
all values are done in local currencies (in my case canadian), and without taxes or shipping


Warhound - $655
Reaver - $420
Warlord - $330

I couldn't find a price tag for any Emperor titans (do they even have any?)

50 space marine stands - $120
100 space marine stands - $240
500 space marine stands - $480
1000 space marine stands - $960

1000 imperial guard stands - $2200
2000 imperial guard stands - $4400

now, all I did was take the krieg models for the guard at 50 or 55$ for 50 guardsmen, and multiplied it accordingly, and then doubled it because if both sides will have guard. With the marines, all I could find was the company set which has the 24 tactical marine stands and 8 stands for assault marines. So I took that and did the same as I did with the guard, and the titans were also done in the same manner. All in all though that comes out to $3725 - $6765, again not including taxes or shipping. However I would prefer if someone might be willing to make sure these figures are right? I would hate to say they are when they might not be, but that's still quite a few shinny pennies to play out the battle at the scale you're thinking of (and I dont even know how the points values work for epic, so it might take more or maybe fewer models than the above figures)

madd0ct0r
25-01-2011, 03:49
An EPIC reaver from forgeworld only costs $30.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Epic-40000/Epic_40,000_Titans

think tactically. In 40k you are a soldier. In epic you are a general.

bound for glory
25-01-2011, 06:58
this still going?:eyebrows:

Darkspear
25-01-2011, 08:05
Seriously I think that this plan is possible as long as the individual has enough financial resources.

Tens of thousand of pounds is not a big deal actually if one owns some cash generating asset such as a few companies etc etc. Minis can be painted by workers in Pakistan or other developing countries (100 workers painting a hundred models per week gives us 40000 troops a month). Terrain can be done by engaging some contractors that are well-versed in making minature buildings (for architecture or engineering purposes). Venue can be easily sought out. An acquaintence of mine had a spare factory un-used by his family business, he use the premises for games.


I did the math, if you have enough money, you can get teams of people to do it the dirty work and make the dream happen. I believe that some people are just jealous. For all you know Council and his friend could be really rich and own lots of assets. Just because we cannot do it does not mean others couldn't either.

Aun'aart'al
25-01-2011, 08:16
which is all true, however all we know so far about Council is that he is in high school and wants to do this with at least one of his high school buddies. Fact of the matter is though is that he hasn't given us any indication that either he or his family are financially loaded, have connections, etc.

would be interesting to see a set of pictures taken if this were actually done up though :D

bound for glory
26-01-2011, 02:27
are you kidding? this would need to be FILMED!

carlisimo
26-01-2011, 05:43
If he's not loaded he just needs more time and more volunteers. How hard can it be to find volunteers on Warseer?

Carlosophy
26-01-2011, 09:08
I can't believe we have reached 9 pages and no-one has mentioned the Black Crusade scenario. Instead of playing out millions of points and a battle so big you'll have died before you finish it, why not concentrate on several smaller engagements and then work out a system to bind them together.

Example: You could play the Black Crusade scenario from Battle Missions where every unit may be recycled from reserve once it is dead. This easily represents the limitless reserves of such large armies but you can contain the actual model count to 2000pts or so.
You then fight over a specific objective, such as breaching a portion of the palace walls for a limited timeframe (~4 hours) and then another day fight another similar battle for another objective. This culminates in a fight on board a spaceship between Horus and the Emperor using the Space Hulk/Crusade boards and the 'Clash of Heroes' scenario and force chart. You could easily use Calgar to represent the Emperor and Abaddon as Horus to prevent any stupidity talking place.

Garven Dreis
26-01-2011, 09:26
I can't believe we have reached 9 pages and no-one has mentioned the Black Crusade scenario.

I mentioned it a fair while back, but kind of adapting it.

Mojaco
26-01-2011, 15:33
Just a million pts? What about the daemons, citizens (1 pt, but there's billions of them), animals, orbital defenses?

Do this properly or not at all :D

bound for glory
26-01-2011, 18:41
yeah! don't halfass it!

the Council of Six
27-01-2011, 21:47
all values are done in local currencies (in my case canadian), and without taxes or shipping



now, all I did was take the krieg models for the guard at 50 or 55$ for 50 guardsmen, and multiplied it accordingly, and then doubled it because if both sides will have guard. With the marines, all I could find was the company set which has the 24 tactical marine stands and 8 stands for assault marines. So I took that and did the same as I did with the guard, and the titans were also done in the same manner. All in all though that comes out to $3725 - $6765, again not including taxes or shipping. However I would prefer if someone might be willing to make sure these figures are right? I would hate to say they are when they might not be, but that's still quite a few shinny pennies to play out the battle at the scale you're thinking of (and I dont even know how the points values work for epic, so it might take more or maybe fewer models than the above figures)
Emperors are scratch build, i think. to be honest Epic really isn't one under my belt so ill have to do some reading up on it.

Kresterz
29-01-2011, 01:19
Just a million pts? What about the daemons, citizens (1 pt, but there's billions of them), animals, orbital defenses?

Do this properly or not at all :D

1 billion citizens = 1 billion points, gameis done,

but in reality, 10000 point games = 1000 games, that might take 1.5 months... not bad :) JUst put in randomskirmaishes and then makesomebig scaleones after reading the fluff for to determine the biggest fights...seeing as apoc games usually don't require terrain as that many squads can cover each other uppretty nicely. I think painting might take the longest amount of time. Don't forget the need of a lot of forge world epic titans :)

If you play this game in the summer, FILM IT

the Council of Six
29-01-2011, 16:23
If you play this game in the summer, FILM IT

it will be on youtube with heresy video clips, artwork, commentary, etc. plus an intro.

Inquisitor Engel
29-01-2011, 22:14
it will be on youtube with heresy video clips, artwork, commentary, etc. plus an intro.

Best of luck to you, but as I said before, I'll believe it when I see it.

After nearly EIGHTEEN YEARS of collecting, all of my armies added together (including the ones I've sold on) barely scratch the 30,000 point line. (About 2500 points an army, some larger, some smaller)

finbob
30-01-2011, 01:38
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbTyjVh37yM

Enough said. =)

bound for glory
30-01-2011, 04:04
this should be put to sleep. i mean, the kid has gone on for 9 pages and has avoided all serious answers as to how this is really gonna happen. where the funds will come from. what kind of a start he has. etc. anyone but me think he's just takin' a ****? lock this thread.(then delete it)

eyescrossed
30-01-2011, 04:49
bound for glory, you should give it a rest. You've done nothing this entire thread but flame the OP. Even though I think it's completely ridiculous, and he might just be a troll, don't keep feeding the fire. Either report it to the moderators or ignore the thread.

Is it that bloody hard?

bound for glory
30-01-2011, 05:08
ok. i'll stop saying what most are thinking. i'm sorry, concil. please, continue...

eyescrossed
30-01-2011, 06:46
Sometimes things not need be said. Should I speak my mind and call you an idiot?

I think not.

the Council of Six
30-01-2011, 15:47
i've had about enough of this, Bound for Glory. i dont mind the stern criticism. in fact, if you feel it's better than being nurturing about it, i encourage it, but if all your going to do is flame me and my goals, id rather you just dont post it. Ive been patient this entire thread, but now im a little pissed off. post something constructive, or dont post at all. i've been listening to every word everyone has said on this thread, and i think that all of them are great ideas.

I know i dont have a snowball's chance in hell of making 1x10E6 points worth of 40k, so we've scaled it down to the equivalent of 50k points of 40k in Epic, using Horus Heresy to work out the strategic elements. I had already planned on multiple means of high income before this idea even crossed my mind, so funding is not a problem. In my own opinion, my "step goals" are kind of lax. maybe 1 full unit every 2-3 weeks. One problem i have is i still need to get the right books to see what battles we need to play out. I've still got to look up and find out what Terrain we will need, so that's still up for discussion. If you think i haven't been listening to anyone's advice, im sorry to tell you that you are sorely mistaken.

eyescrossed
30-01-2011, 15:48
Good to hear, Council. I'm looking forward to seeing it, when it eventually gets done :)

the Council of Six
30-01-2011, 15:50
Good to hear, Council. I'm looking forward to seeing it, when it eventually gets done :)

and im looking forward to getting it done, so that people like you can finally see it.:D

bound for glory
31-01-2011, 04:38
you went from,"me and my HIGH SCHOOL FRIEND are gonna do the whole thing because i'm gonna be rich(lol, oh lol!), to, what is it now? 50, 000 pts.? you are so right. i sould NEVER have questioned this totally achievable plan. and look again, sonny. i'm not the only one who mocked you. but i guess because the great eyescrossed attacked me, you decide now to take offense.

bound for glory
31-01-2011, 04:41
but, really, good luck! and i do mean that. and to flame was not my intent.

eyescrossed
31-01-2011, 06:09
but i guess because the great eyescrossed attacked me, you decide now to take offense.
It's called the bystander effect. He was probably already annoyed at you and taking offense but because nobody was confronting you he kept quiet.

Anyway, thank you for stopping.

drukawski
31-01-2011, 11:49
how many times have i now said we are playing 50,000 points total?

Monkeysh*t! You'll play a million point 40k game and you'll like it!


Siege of Terra:
1.) Play it spearhead. Horus fought in a perfectly straight line directly to the throne. His mapquest said: "You" ----Straight-Damn-Line----> "Throne"
2.) I'm going to arbitrarily call ~5k pts an upper limit per 4' x 8' sheet of ply, thats 200 sheets of plywood. 7/16" OSB sheathing from Home Depot runs about 8 bucks a pop, plus 2 saw horses per table, @ ~$10 each. Minimum table cost sans-terrain: $5600
3.) 200 sheets of 8' ply is going to be 1600' long (just a little over a third of a mile) find someone with 2.5 acres or use a running track.
4.) Assuming ~55 models/2k pts; you will need ~13,750 models assembled per side (lets ignore paint to cut time and costs). Arbitrary cost for a 2k pts army: ~$350, thats each side spending upwards of $87,500.
5.) Defenders set up along the full length of the board, Attackers can outflank no further than 48" from forward-most attacker unit. Defenders must deploy 2.5k pts of models per table, attackers start with 2.5k pts and gain an additional 2.5k pts of outflanking reserves for each successive opponent table edge they reach.
6.) Assuming your fast movers turbo boots forward every turn and they deploy 12" in from their table edge you will arrive at the last table around turn 796. As long as you blow through a turn in 30 mins, its only 398 hours of game time.

Arbitrarily large numbers are fun, lets play with them some more:
-If you can get in a 40 hours of gaming a week it will take you 10 weeks to finish the siege.
-Budget: ~$200,000 total (~$180,000 for the tables and minis + an imperial strong point or fortress of redemption for each board ~$20,000).
-Say you average 20 mins/model for model assembly, your looking at 4,583 hours of assembly time per side, if you assemble 8 hours a day and 10 hours a day on weekends you will finish your half of the assembly in ~1.5 years.
-If it takes you 20mins to set up each table you will spend ~66 hours setting tables up. You still have to take them down when your done.
-If you average 10 models/tube of cyanoacrylate glue you will need 1375 tubes of glue, at retail price of $5/12 pack thats $573 worth of super glue per side.
-US Federal min. wage is currently $7.25 per hour, if you were lazy and wanted to pay someone else to assemble your army it would cost at least $33,226 and increase the build time to over 2 years. (Ignoring weekend work to avoid overtime nastyness)

Now lets see if we can rough out a timetable for affording this, Assume:
$3000/yr on car insurance
$1200/yr on health insurance
$4800/yr on car for 5 years
$3600/yr on food
$1200/yr on electricity
$1200/yr on tv/internet
$7200/yr on rent
$1200/yr on phone (either cell or home)
$4,160/yr on car fuel (assume 15mi/gal, 30mi drive to work, $4.00/gal *conservative given price trends) [$4.00/gal*4gal/day*5days/week*52weeks/year]
This is all conservative and assumes you are spending NOTHING on other interests, clothing, haircuts, hobbies, dating, gym membership, etc. AND this assumes /parking/water/garbage service is included in rent.

Yearly expenses: $27,560 (Drops to $22,760 in year 6)
Median 2009 US annual household income: $50,221.00 (So says US Census Bureau) with 25% loss to taxes that leaves you a net income of $37,665.75/year
Net income less yearly expenses of $27,560 gives you a max yearly budget of: $10,105.75 years 1-5 and $14,905.75 year 6 and on.
$100,873 - your half of the terrain, boards, glue, and your army
Total time to afford everything: [B]8.5 years(/B)

This is very, very conservative. In all likelihood a yearly budget of 1/4 of that for the hobby would be a high budget AND its going to buy fewer models since you will want to buy pant, primer, basing materials, tools, brushes, air brushes, putty, etc. Also you assembly times will be much longer, if your investing this amount of money you will want everything to look nice and will likely wash your sprues, trim flash, blue tack things for positioning, magnetize models, pin your heavy bits. Then you will spend a lot of time just experimenting with paint techniques and stripping models for repaint.

Your decision to scale back from 1 million to 50,000 pts takes this from the realm of Brewster's millions ludicrousness to only slightly mad. A 25,000 point personal goal for your army, while incredibly immense, is realistically within reach of a hobbyist that starts young and sticks with it for a good long while.
Good luck!

Inquisitor Engel
01-02-2011, 19:34
1.) Play it spearhead. Horus fought in a perfectly straight line directly to the throne. His mapquest said: "You" ----Straight-Damn-Line----> "Throne"

I love this.

You're probably someone else's account made to make this point in anonymity, but I wish you hadn't. Well done sir, well done.

madd0ct0r
02-02-2011, 08:51
just to nitpick - there's an indian company that does LARGE painting commissions, and because they bulk buy the marines from GW, they get a discount, so painted marines cost only very slightly more then standard GW ones.

Why use American slave wage when elsewhere it's so much lower?

Also using duwaski's method, you only really need two tables and lots of modular terrain - it's how the old road warriors game worked.

Max Jet
02-02-2011, 10:04
Since this project is burdened with hidden costs, catapulting your spendings into much higher numbers than drukawski extrapolated, you might actually consider buying 51% of GW, rather than achieving this goal.
Then order your employees to take the bulk of work from you and make a WD Series out of it.

Almost the same costs, much less work! Think of how many Mangas you can draw during that time.

orkz222
02-02-2011, 15:59
Drukawski gave a very good approximate calculation on the time and money required for the "1 MILLION" pts battle. Thread starter could take it as a guideline and start planning and working on his dream battle.

Kresterz
02-02-2011, 18:20
lols, if anything, it was a falsetitle and because you cannot edit thethread title, people just try to troll him/her on it...

Thats just sad and mean

theLastWulfen
02-02-2011, 18:58
The kid has a dream.
He is asking for help in achieving that dream.

Here it is.
You are young, start hanging around your LGS, meet some of the old timers and become friends with them. They were once a dreamer too, so they will understand your dreams, just remember to act polite and courteous.
If the old-timers like you you have it made. (This is true in any aspect of life no matter what it may be.)
You are throwing point costs and money figures around because in reality you have no idea of the actual completed project, just a romantic concept in your head. "The Siege of Terra!"
You really have no idea how to implement this.
Right now at the the store I go to, two old-time hardcore gamers are planning this same apocalyptic event for the summer. They are not worried about points, they will figure out a way to even things out (if they even want to even things out!) They are playing out a dream battle!! For the enjoyment of it!! Their two armies alone are probably sufficient for the battle although there will be others. Their armies alone will need additional players to command to facilitate play.
If Council and his friend were to view this event, it would probably be everything they are trying to envision, put to reality!!
So enough with the numbers and costs projections!
This is how you make a gaming dream a reality!!

You know what?
I'm 60 years old, I was thinking of converting the bottom level of my third home into a apocalypse gaming table. I also have access to a warehouse the size of a modern retail store (KMart/Target, etc.,) for personal use.
If this kid (Council) lived by me, I would give him access and would let him start now building the scenery and table for the "Siege of Terra!"
I would even give him the money for the building supplies and help him build it!
Why??
Because I too love dreams!!
And making them a reality!!

the Council of Six
02-02-2011, 22:19
The kid has a dream.
He is asking for help in achieving that dream.

Here it is.
You are young, start hanging around your LGS, meet some of the old timers and become friends with them. They were once a dreamer too, so they will understand your dreams, just remember to act polite and courteous.
If the old-timers like you you have it made. (This is true in any aspect of life no matter what it may be.)
You are throwing point costs and money figures around because in reality you have no idea of the actual completed project, just a romantic concept in your head. "The Siege of Terra!"
You really have no idea how to implement this.
Right now at the the store I go to, two old-time hardcore gamers are planning this same apocalyptic event for the summer. They are not worried about points, they will figure out a way to even things out (if they even want to even things out!) They are playing out a dream battle!! For the enjoyment of it!! Their two armies alone are probably sufficient for the battle although there will be others. Their armies alone will need additional players to command to facilitate play.
If Council and his friend were to view this event, it would probably be everything they are trying to envision, put to reality!!
So enough with the numbers and costs projections!
This is how you make a gaming dream a reality!!

You know what?
I'm 60 years old, I was thinking of converting the bottom level of my third home into a apocalypse gaming table. I also have access to a warehouse the size of a modern retail store (KMart/Target, etc.,) for personal use.
If this kid (Council) lived by me, I would give him access and would let him start now building the scenery and table for the "Siege of Terra!"
I would even give him the money for the building supplies and help him build it!
Why??
Because I too love dreams!!
And making them a reality!!

that... was... beautiful. Im not sure at what point i should stop organizing and just wing it, as far as details go, but i think everyone has contributed immensly to this, i also know that i keep redundantly repeating that same phrase, but it's true, and right now, Wulfen, i really wish i did live near you. Some extra help is always appreciated, and i'm sure you know enough about the siege to know what the most important battles are. I'm sure I could say a lot more but i can't remember any of it right now.

The bearded one
03-02-2011, 11:30
Why am I currently thinking of Martin Luther king..?

"I have a dream!"

the Council of Six
03-02-2011, 18:25
Why am I currently thinking of Martin Luther king..?

"I have a dream!"

lol it certainly seems that way doesn't it. but it's true, i do. a dream that lots and lots of power-armoured supersoldiers will slaughter each other over the fate of a God made manifest on my tabletop.:evilgrin: Hey cool the thread just hit past 10 pages, either i learned too late not to multi-post or this thread is getting serious attention.

BigbyWolf
03-02-2011, 18:47
lols, if anything, it was a falsetitle and because you cannot edit thethread title, people just try to troll him/her on it...

Thats just sad and mean

First sentence of the OP was "Me and my friend are organizing a Siege of Terra battle involving maybe around a million points total, and we need lots of input."

So no, it isn't a false title.

the Council of Six
04-02-2011, 00:55
First sentence of the OP was "Me and my friend are organizing a Siege of Terra battle involving maybe around a million points total, and we need lots of input."

So no, it isn't a false title.

what does OP mean? i know the high school OP but not the term.

Mannimarco
04-02-2011, 01:55
OP - original poster, the person who started the topic.

the Council of Six
04-02-2011, 19:17
OP - original poster, the person who started the topic.

thank you. Life makes so much more sense now lol. After i'm done reading the Epic rulebook (and it sure is an Epic rulebook, in the "Odyssey" meaning of the word) ill work out esimated prices of the required forces, and after i get my hands on that Horus Heresy game, ill figure out how to combine the two (shouldnt be too hard, i'm currently combining 40k, all of it's expansions, and Battlefleet Gothic into a rulebook for putting together interstellar campaigns, which exercise not only your Tactical and strategic skills, but also your diplomatic and economic skills. It's like AOE 40K. but i feel it might get so big that switching from 40k to Epic might be more achievable.)

BigbyWolf
04-02-2011, 22:06
I read a lot of the earlier debate on this thread, but have been away for a good portion of it, I'm just wondering if you have considered putting some time into a website and running a global campaign for this idea?

Split up the major conflicts, and have people post battle reports with pictures, (using 40K, Epic and BFG) all leading up to a massive (but not unwieldy) finale, culminating with a Space-Hulkesque final assault on the Warmasters Battlebarge.

This gives you the opportunity to involve a lot of players who would probably jump at the chance and reduce the cost to yourself significantly (and therefore bring the timescale down to years and not decades). Instead of assembling massive armies yourself you could put a lot of work into making a magnificent battlefield for the final chapter and a "dungeon-style" floor map for the ship assault.

I think if something like that was going on it might spur me to return to 40K, I've been interested in the siege of Terra ever since they released a White Dwarf that told you all about it, and also included a free game based on it.

the Council of Six
05-02-2011, 17:11
I read a lot of the earlier debate on this thread, but have been away for a good portion of it, I'm just wondering if you have considered putting some time into a website and running a global campaign for this idea?

Split up the major conflicts, and have people post battle reports with pictures, (using 40K, Epic and BFG) all leading up to a massive (but not unwieldy) finale, culminating with a Space-Hulkesque final assault on the Warmasters Battlebarge.

This gives you the opportunity to involve a lot of players who would probably jump at the chance and reduce the cost to yourself significantly (and therefore bring the timescale down to years and not decades). Instead of assembling massive armies yourself you could put a lot of work into making a magnificent battlefield for the final chapter and a "dungeon-style" floor map for the ship assault.

I think if something like that was going on it might spur me to return to 40K, I've been interested in the siege of Terra ever since they released a White Dwarf that told you all about it, and also included a free game based on it.

My friend you are a GENIUS!!! why didn't my supercomputer figure that out!? oh wait it can't think out of the box.