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Reflex
15-12-2010, 22:58
I want to ask this because obviously the IF are the founding chapter and the black Templars were created as a crusading chapter from the most zealos of the IF. But do the BT see them selves as, in a way, IF for when the emperor is reborn or some such?

Also how much are the BT similar to the IF in terms of traditions such as the pain glove and the 5 spheres (I think it's called that).

Of course they are different chapters but for some reason I feel that the chapters should be close or some such...

Borg451
16-12-2010, 09:39
The Imperial Fists are un-pious bastards, who dont give enough reverance to the Immortal God Emperor..

Askil the Undecided
16-12-2010, 10:24
Not particularly, the BTs are the Fists who couldn't abide by Dorn order to "go Codex" and instead ran off under the firebrand Sigismund's leadership to continue Dorn's penitence crusade for failing to save the Emperor from Horus.

In short the Fists view them as wildly impetuous and see their reckless purges as potentially harmful to the stability of the Imperium and the BTs see the Fists a too stoic and immovable, restrained by the Codex to the point they cannot truly fulfil their duty to the Emperor as the sons of Dorn should.

Relations are civil and fraternal but neither completely agrees with the other's methods.

Reflex
16-12-2010, 10:50
So in reality the BT and IF arnt as close as you would think I suppose. Would the relationship between the Crimson Fists and IF be stronger then that of the BT

shadowhawk2008
16-12-2010, 11:17
So in reality the BT and IF arnt as close as you would think I suppose. Would the relationship between the Crimson Fists and IF be stronger then that of the BT

well both the IF and the CF attend tne feast of blades events /shrug

and the CF and BT share a rather warm relationship after that one crusade and they exchanged honour markings on their armour

radical ed
16-12-2010, 11:24
the way ive always seen it is that Dorn, unhappy with the codex changes and the percieved weaking of his chapter, decided to publicly go codex with the fists, but to build another force that would remain loyal to him and have vast numbers. If dorn was to return the BT's would be 1st in line to join him. He wouldnt have a legion to control, but it would be a much larger force than just the one chapter.

the dark angels did somthing similar: they and there successors are known as the unforgiven, and are totally loyal to the supreme grand master of the DA.

Reflex
16-12-2010, 11:30
well both the IF and the CF attend tne feast of blades events /shrug


So the BT's don't?

Polaria
16-12-2010, 12:20
Not particularly, the BTs are the Fists who couldn't abide by Dorn order to "go Codex" and instead ran off under the firebrand Sigismund's leadership to continue Dorn's penitence crusade for failing to save the Emperor from Horus.

Actually,


After the Horus Heresy, the breakdown of the Imperial Fists into Codex chapters was demanded by Roboute Guilliman. Dorn thought him a coward for not being there with the Ultramarines to help in the defence of Terra. Guilliman in his turn thought a rebel of Dorn for not adhering to the new Codex Astartes.

Neither would give in. Leman Russ, primarch of the Space Wolves, and Vulkan, primarch of the Salamanders both agreed with Dorn, they also did not want their Legions split up and spread across the galaxy. Raven Guard primarch Corax and Jaghatai Khan of the White Scars supported the Ultramarines. Again a civil war was looming on the horizon.

The Imperial Fists were persecuted for their so called heresies and even fired upon by the Imperial Navy. When it looked almost inevitable that civil war would be fought, Dorn finally relented and agreed to split his legion in chapters as dictated by the Codex Astartes. The Imperial Fists were split up and the Crimson Fists and the Black Templars chapters were created.


So basically Dorn didn't want to "go codex", instead, they were forced to do so at gunpoint (or, orbital macrocannonpoint, as the case is). Black Templars didn't "run off", instead Dorn broke up his legion assigning the most fanatic bunch into Black Templars and the more agreeable types into Crimson Fists.

shadowhawk2008
16-12-2010, 12:29
So the BT's don't?

i'll restate it then, given the ambiguity---

both the Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists are known to attend the Feast of Blades events and so far there is no record of the BT attending such events.


now, given that the event is a recent addition to the fluff (i don't remember reading of it in any of the prior fluff to the C:SM 5th ed, it could possibly be added in to the the BT fluff when they get a shiny new codex. however, from what I understand of the BT, an event that appears to be focussed on swordwork does not seem to be in their taste. but there is nothing to prevent such minor retcons taking place in any new fluff.

Reflex
16-12-2010, 12:30
Yes but dorn had to come up with a way to split that legion. He spent 7 days in the pain glove and then came up with the idea to assault an iron warrior strong hold. After he did (suffering huge casualties) but winning (I think) he split his remaining legion into three. The newer bunch became the crimson fists because they were the least influenced, the most stoic and stern stayed as IF and the fanatical bunch became the BT. That's how I understand it. I could be wrong. I'm just wondering what they relationship between this lot is like. Also who are the chapters that fight in the blades event.

shadowhawk2008
16-12-2010, 12:36
Dorn broke up his legion assigning the most fanatic bunch into Black Templars and the more agreeable types into Crimson Fists.

the way it went i believe is that the most fanatic and 'religious' of the IF legion were formed into the new BT chapter, most of the veterans were formed into the IF chapter, most of the younglings went CF and space-borne assault elements were formed into the Soul Drinkers.

[regardless of people's feelings on the matter, the SD books are canon and they mention them as being IF successors. given that the powers-that-be issued a deletion order against the Soul Drinkers following their mutiny and going renegade, records were altered and/or deleted to reflect that their were only 3 successors to the IF legion instead of 4. just one of the retcons/inconsistencies between old fluff and new fluff that we gotta live with :) ]

MarshalFaust
16-12-2010, 15:36
I believe Dorn' iwas playing good politics. he knew he couldn't keep his legion because he didn't see it worth fighting another war over. so he gives the nod to split his legion into 3 chapters. yet the black templars remained outside the codex virtually unchanged from the original legion other than a new paintjob. Dorn got what he wanted, Guilliman got what he wanted.

massey
16-12-2010, 15:45
To answer the original question, the relationship between the Imperial Fists and the Black Templars is not particularly noteworthy. There is no indication that the relationship is any closer than the one between, say, the Eagle Warriors and the Ultramarines. There also is nothing to indicate that the relationship is bad, there's just very little mention of the two chapters working together or doing anything with one another. Presumably the Black Templars will come to the Feast of Blades, but there's no mention of them attending (likewise, there's no mention of them not attending).

It would seem that the default is that second foundings have decent relations with their founding chapter, so we can presume that the two get along okay.

Zweischneid
16-12-2010, 15:54
Q: Imperial fists and black templars: how close are they?

A: In the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millennium, there is only War!

*picks table-edge*

Col. Tartleton
16-12-2010, 20:04
I agree with Marshal Faust.

Essentially Guilliman didn't want Dorn to have a Legion.
Dorn conceded. He planned on heroic final campaign for his men against his old rival. If they won it would be an atonement, if he failed he would have done his duty. It starts looking like Dorn would throw his men's lives away rather than accept Guilliman's wishes. Guilliman arrives and breaks the siege and basically tells Dorn to snap out of it and if he can't do that he's of no use to anyone.

Dorn realizes he isn't fit to command so he basically relieves himself of command. He knows the surviving "old guard" types won't follow anyone but him so he chooses the Triarii to remain as Imperial Fists. The youngest recruits are put under the command of Alexis Pollux who he hopes will be able to carry on the esprit de corps of the legion. He leaves an assault company under it's commander which become the Soul Drinkers. Sigismund gets the rest added to his Templar company, because Dorn knows he will carry on the Crusade to the ends of the earth.

They all get on well except the Soul Drinkers who went Heretic and got a can of ass beating opened on them and were exterminated and removed from the records. Okay not really, Counter is milking it by adding a short story so that they can discuss the trial of the last dozen or so Soul Drinkers... Hurr Hurr Hurr they're going to get off.

VanirX
16-12-2010, 20:37
Not particularly, the BTs are the Fists who couldn't abide by Dorn order to "go Codex" and instead ran off under the firebrand Sigismund's leadership to continue Dorn's penitence crusade for failing to save the Emperor from Horus.

So essentially, Codex: Black Templars is a kind of Codex: Imerial Fists, before the Imperial Fists went Codex: Sace Marines?

MarshalFaust
16-12-2010, 21:20
kind of, i see the Black Templars as way more hardline than the original legion was. I see their extremist religious views only amplified by 10,000 years of being on constant crusade and their veneration of Sigismund. therefore i would assume they have become way more focused on close combat in place of long range firepower, for example black templars cannot take Devastator squads. their command structure may resemble the way the original Imperial Fists were organized though.

Lord_Crull
17-12-2010, 01:03
So essentially, Codex: Black Templars is a kind of Codex: Imerial Fists, before the Imperial Fists went Codex: Sace Marines?

Not quite.

The Pre-Heresy Fists had companies all organised the same way and all followed methodical seige planning.

IA Imperial Fists.


Initially, the Imperial Fists were an inflexible formation; each Company had an identical organisation and Company Commanders tended to be unimaginative.

The Templars are noted to have a loose organization and favor close combat. In addition they have trappings that the Pre-Heresy Fists don't.

IA Black Templars


The larger Crusades are often broken down by their Marshal into Fighting Companies, led by Sword Brethren given the additional honorific of `Castellan`. Whether such Companies exist or not, individual squads are gathered and dispersed in a fairly ad-hoc fashion, and Initiates will fight together regularly out of familiarity and comradeship rather than any imposed organisation.

Nazguire
17-12-2010, 01:07
We have evidence that the Black Templars command structure is similar to that of the Imperial Fists Legion in The First Heretic where Aquillion remarks that the ceremony Lorgar is holding is similar to Sigismund 'knighting' one of his Templars.

Sparowl
17-12-2010, 01:13
Well, as shown above, the BT were created by Dorn's command, then went off on their own. The BT still worship Dorn as their progenitor. I can't imagine them being too angry with each other.

Nazguire
17-12-2010, 01:17
Well, as shown above, the BT were created by Dorn's command, then went off on their own. The BT still worship Dorn as their progenitor. I can't imagine them being too angry with each other.

I like to think that all 3 (4?) Chapters are relatively close with one another. Black Templars see the Imperial Fists as the remnants of the original Legion, and have respect for them in that regard.

The Templars see themselves as the only ones truly enacting Dorn's ideals though (Helsreach) and see other Chapters as 'lesser')

So whilst they are relatively close, operationally speaking, in some ideaological aspects they are worlds apart.

Goosey_J
17-12-2010, 02:35
and the space-borne assault elements were formed into the Soul Drinkers.

[regardless of people's feelings on the matter, the SD books are canon and they mention them as being IF successors. given that the powers-that-be issued a deletion order against the Soul Drinkers following their mutiny and going renegade, records were altered and/or deleted to reflect that their were only 3 successors to the IF legion instead of 4. just one of the retcons/inconsistencies between old fluff and new fluff that we gotta live with :) ]

No they ******* weren't! And no we ******* don't!

Read Daenyathos. The IF dude who comments on the text....

says that the Soul Drinkers were never a second founding chapter and were instead formed from the black templars during the third founding

And I only offer that explanation begrudgingly. Personally for me they don't exist.

I mean seriously, how would you feel if some **** writer rocked up and was all like "by the way I made up a super awesome bunch of space marines formed from your favourite chapter. Yeah they're led by gnarly man spider. He's really cool, trust me. He can fly and has a robot leg and stuff."

Would you stand by and accept that?

Nazguire
17-12-2010, 03:29
No they ******* weren't! And no we ******* don't!

Read Daenyathos. The IF dude who comments on the text....

says that the Soul Drinkers were never a second founding chapter and were instead formed from the black templars during the third founding

And I only offer that explanation begrudgingly. Personally for me they don't exist.

I mean seriously, how would you feel if some **** writer rocked up and was all like "by the way I made up a super awesome bunch of space marines formed from your favourite chapter. Yeah they're led by gnarly man spider. He's really cool, trust me. He can fly and has a robot leg and stuff."

Would you stand by and accept that?

I probably would, because it's a book and I'm not so engrossed in my 40k I actually think I'm an Imperial Fist...

Lord_Crull
17-12-2010, 11:03
We have evidence that the Black Templars command structure is similar to that of the Imperial Fists Legion in The First Heretic where Aquillion remarks that the ceremony Lorgar is holding is similar to Sigismund 'knighting' one of his Templars.

That may be, but going off the Index Astartes article there appear to be key organizational and combat differences.

Remember, the Templars have had 10,000 years for make their own traditions. I expect there to be similarities, yes, but the Templars are not carbon copies of the Imperial Fists Legion Pre-Heresy.

Nazguire
17-12-2010, 14:53
That may be, but going off the Index Astartes article there appear to be key organizational and combat differences.

Remember, the Templars have had 10,000 years for make their own traditions. I expect there to be similarities, yes, but the Templars are not carbon copies of the Imperial Fists Legion Pre-Heresy.

I never said they were. I was just remarking that they had similarities.

There are obvious differences, such as the household system of organisation, reliance on Chaplains, and others we haven't seen. We can't make much of a statement more than this until we see more HH Imperial Fist action.

Goosey_J
17-12-2010, 15:34
I probably would, because it's a book and I'm not so engrossed in my 40k I actually think I'm an Imperial Fist...

Yeah and I dress up in cardboard power armour and pretend to be a super soldier of the emperor pewpew...

Seriously if your not engrossed in 40k then why are you wasting your time posting on a 40k forum, discussing niche topics about the 40k universe?

Pull the other one mate.

Nazguire
17-12-2010, 16:53
I enjoy the 40k game and back ground, and I like discussing it. But I'm not so fervently involved in it that I cry bloody murder if a writer creates something that doesn't fit what I personally envision the 40k universe to be about.


If Daenythos states that the Soul Drinkers are 3rd Founding from Black Templars gene-seed, and the books state that they are Imperial Fist successors, then until GW say otherwise, it's canon.

Black Library books are canon, unless GW puts in their Codex' something that openly contradicts it. Soul Drinkers are here to stay whether we like it or not. I'm not a personal fan, but I ain't going to discount it because I don't like them, no different than I don't pretend that Hayden Christensen doesn't exist after Episode III.

Col. Tartleton
17-12-2010, 20:10
kind of, i see the Black Templars as way more hardline than the original legion was. I see their extremist religious views only amplified by 10,000 years of being on constant crusade and their veneration of Sigismund. therefore i would assume they have become way more focused on close combat in place of long range firepower, for example black templars cannot take Devastator squads. their command structure may resemble the way the original Imperial Fists were organized though.

They do have those things. That was a balance thing. The army got improved in certain areas over vanillas and needed drawbacks.

Black Templars are organized haphazardly because they're constantly changing their TOE so they give up trying to organize. Your average crusade is a few half strength Fighting (ie Battle) Companies with whatever kit they have at their disposal led by Castellans (Captains) led by a Marshal (Master.) Small crusades are probably just a Castellan and his men. Large Crusades might have a handful of reinforced Fighting Companies with a large Sword Brethren presence with their Marshal, or even the High Marshal.

Lupe
17-12-2010, 20:35
If Daenythos states that the Soul Drinkers are 3rd Founding from Black Templars gene-seed, and the books state that they are Imperial Fist successors, then until GW say otherwise, it's canon.

Mind you, this is the same author bringing up both options to further the same plot. Discussing which is canon or not might need to wait until it's resolved....

Anyway, I sort of expect the Black Templars and Imperial Fists to get along quite well. I mean, they might not be best friends, but they see themselves as closer brothers nonetheless. Sure, some are more aggressive and impetuous, while the others are have a more reserved demeanor, but hey... It wouldn't go so far as exchanging greetings through the astropaths on Dorn Day every year, but when they do meet they'd likely exchange purity seals while complimenting each other's accomplishments.

ChaosTicket
18-12-2010, 00:31
Most chapters that arent misanthropes work well together, for conclaves, or to renew bonds of brotherhood.

Black templars are almost opposite in personality, combat techniques, and beliefs, but that doesnt mean they wont meet at their chapter-keeps, have a mega-ale and compete for honors and tall tales(like the Space Wolves).

What I wonder is how would they operate together on the battlefield?

Col. Tartleton
18-12-2010, 15:22
The Imperial Fists would develop a brilliant strategy on the Phalanx and while mounting up for the drop would find out that the planet's already been pacified. Then they'd get grumpy when the Templars dock to rearm and tell them about the sex and champagne party with all the attractive newly liberated girls they could round up onboard their Sacred "Party Barge" the Zeal of Piety. A la Americans and British in World War 2.

ryng_sting
18-12-2010, 15:30
The BT respect their parent chapter, but differ over matters of ideology. And over psykers, of course.

Nazguire
18-12-2010, 19:28
The Imperial Fists would develop a brilliant strategy on the Phalanx and while mounting up for the drop would find out that the planet's already been pacified. Then they'd get grumpy when the Templars dock to rearm and tell them about the sex and champagne party with all the attractive newly liberated girls they could round up onboard their Sacred "Party Barge" the Zeal of Piety. A la Americans and British in World War 2.

What are you suggesting...:shifty:

ChaosTicket
19-12-2010, 09:21
Hes saying the grumpy Imperial Fists are WW2 british and the Black Templars are Gung-Ho WW2 Americans.

That does actually fit the US and UK stereotypes for the past 200 years.

Sparowl
19-12-2010, 20:36
The BT respect their parent chapter, but differ over matters of ideology. And over psykers, of course.

You know, the HH books actually talk about how much the IF disliked psykers in the first place, and supported the disbanding of the librarian program.

They probably wouldn't have huge difference of opinion on the subject.

Lord_Crull
19-12-2010, 22:03
You know, the HH books actually talk about how much the IF disliked psykers in the first place, and supported the disbanding of the librarian program.

They probably wouldn't have huge difference of opinion on the subject.

And now the Fists themselves employ Librarians who use their powers.

Lord-Caerolion
19-12-2010, 22:53
We have evidence that the Black Templars command structure is similar to that of the Imperial Fists Legion in The First Heretic where Aquillion remarks that the ceremony Lorgar is holding is similar to Sigismund 'knighting' one of his Templars.

No, that shows that the Imperial Fists had an honorific that required knighting. It shows nothing about how their command structure was organised. Just because someone is knighted doesn't mean their organisation structure is loosely-organised "Crusades", as England shows (well, shows now).
It's entirely possible for the Fists to have knight honorifics, yet still have a highly rigid command structure. Hell, they could still have the honorific, for all we know.
Both Black Templars and Ultramarines are awarded the Iron Halo or Crux Terminatus, but that doesn't mean they have the same organisation. It just means that some rituals and awards/titles are the same.

Son of Morkai
20-12-2010, 00:16
And now the Fists themselves employ Librarians who use their powers.

Doesn't mean they don't hate them. :p The Fists have just decided to purge them later.

Lord_Crull
20-12-2010, 01:50
Doesn't mean they don't hate them. :p The Fists have just decided to purge them later.

Actually there is a Fist Librarian in Sons of Dorn who seems quite respected.

shadowhawk2008
20-12-2010, 04:28
Doesn't mean they don't hate them. :p The Fists have just decided to purge them later.

Franz Grenstein of the Imperial Fists is a respected Chief Librarian among the Adeptus Astartes in the 41st millenium.

Lupe
20-12-2010, 04:53
And now the Fists themselves employ Librarians who use their powers.

Well, the Fists might still not particularly like librarians, but field them anyway. Because the Codex says so... After all, the little blue book caused them enough trouble in the past, so they figure they should really stick with it...

TemujinZero
23-12-2010, 13:29
The Black Templars are not closer to what the original legion was before the heresy. The Imperial Fists legion was very codex - it wasn't the strict organisation that they objected to, it was being broken up after failing to defend the emperor at the urging of a brother that wasn't even there. And I certainly doubt that they would have had any time for the religious fanaticism of the Black Templars. The Emperor wasn't too keen on that. It's fair to say that the Black Templars very much represent Dorn's fury and anguish in the aftermath of the Siege of Terra, but the Imperial Fists chapter certainly wasn't a dilution of the legion in line with the codex. They remain closest to the original pre-heresy legion, just much smaller than they were.

ryng_sting
24-12-2010, 09:58
"The Imperial Fists legion was very codex" -

If Rogal Dorn had to spend time re-training his remaining troops in the codex manner after the Iron Cage, that suggests otherwise.

"it was being broken up after failing to defend the emperor"

In which case every legion could be judged guilty.

"at the urging of a brother that wasn't even there."

Whose arrival, together with the Space Wolves and Dark Angels, forced Horus to act rashly and drop his shields; and who also happened to be the Imperium's reigning logistical genius.

"And I certainly doubt that they would have had any time for the religious fanaticism of the Black Templars."

Who don't worship the Emperor as a god.

Lord_Crull
24-12-2010, 12:12
Well, the Fists might still not particularly like librarians, but field them anyway. Because the Codex says so... After all, the little blue book caused them enough trouble in the past, so they figure they should really stick with it...

Actually they don't have to. It's your choice to follow the Codex 100% or not. Indeed, it's noted that noted even the Adeptus Terra can enforce it absolutely.

Codex Space Marines:


The Adeptus Terra has never felt it necessary to enforce the Codex absolutely. Indeed it is doubtful whether it could.

Look at the White Scars and Salamanders for instance. (Actually in fact it seems that adopting the Codex was a posative thing for the Fists. The Index Astartes for the Fists even notes that they got more imaginative and flexible after they adopted the Codex.)

Also, that does not change the fact that we see Librarians being shown in respected positions in Storm of Iron and Sons of Dorn.


The Black Templars are not closer to what the original legion was before the heresy. The Imperial Fists legion was very codex - it wasn't the strict organisation that they objected to, it was being broken up after failing to defend the emperor at the urging of a brother that wasn't even there.

Actually the Imperial Fists IA has a change in organization and combat doctrine after the Codex was adopted.

Col. Tartleton
24-12-2010, 13:20
Yeah the Black Templars aren't religious. They're about as religious as a Soviet Revolutionary. Their religion is the Crusade. They don't mess around. If they gave a damn about religion they'd sit around discussing the implications of their strict "BURN THE WITCH" policy which would not hold up to the fact the Emperor was a psyker. Their strict "KILL THE HERETIC" policy is essentially to remove dissidents. Their strict "KILL THE MUTANT" ensures the ongoing survival of mankind. Their strict "DIE ALIEN SCUM! DIE!" policy simply reflects their Crusader mentality. It's a Stalinist purge of anything that is on the list, and there is a lot on the list.

The Templars just fight the way marines were supposed to before they got their backbone ripped out in the fluff. You could rip a Templar's backbone out and he'd use it to choke you to death. That's a space Marine. With most chapters in the fluff you have some leeway as to how they will follow their creed. While even Ultramarines on occasion will break ranks and do something "illegal" the Templar's never will. They're the guys who never ignore orders.

sean_scanlon2000
25-12-2010, 16:36
if you read enough of the books and look at the codex's templars and fists still get along their fellow marines and respect one another while they maynot approve of each others methods thats where they differ.
the fists them selves arent strictly codex persay either. they still use the painglove. their more oriented towards sword play then say the ultra marines. their one likely break from the codex would be bp blolter and a CCW as mentioned in the most recent fluff.

where as the templars have acces through their crusade squads to both close combat and ranged fp yet they lack the leadership of a sgt for each squad. the fits number relatively 1k+ which is probably right counting battle brother not including recruits and serfs.

where as your templar is number are to be believed and depending on the source vary from 5k-8k. so pretty much if the templars came together as a chapter theyd be the closest to an active marine legion youd have.

yet thier break from teh teaching of the codex are noted ther high lords of terra simply choose to let them be. they have no reasons to question their loyalty thus they leave them alone similar to the wolves actually.

Lord_Crull
25-12-2010, 16:55
the fists them selves arent strictly codex persay either. they still use the painglove.

The pain glove has nothing to do with the Codex Adherance of the Fists.


their one likely break from the codex would be bp blolter and a CCW as mentioned in the most recent fluff.


Except the Fists don't do that. The Fists are noted as the most codex chapter after the Ultramarines in the fluff.

Kroot Lord
26-12-2010, 00:07
Q: Imperial fists and black templars: how close are they?

A: In the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millennium, there is only War!

*picks table-edge*

The only way, any question in this sub-forum should be answered :p

Hellebore
26-12-2010, 01:18
The pain glove has nothing to do with the Codex Adherance of the Fists.


How much of marine behaviour is dictated by the codex? If it's the rulebook marines are supposed to live by then they shouldn't be doing anything not listed there.

The IA gave the IFs more devestator squads, which isn't codex.



Except the Fists don't do that. The Fists are noted as the most codex chapter after the Ultramarines in the fluff.

Which is a relative comparison.

If every chapter used 30 man squads each armed with terminator armour, a jump pack and a bike and wielding thunder pants, then imperial fists with 15 man squads with 2 heavy weapon are MORE codex by comparison. :p

The ultramarines are already not codex anyway, what with their overspecialising 1st company doctrines.

Hellebore

Lord_Crull
26-12-2010, 21:45
How much of marine behaviour is dictated by the codex? If it's the rulebook marines are supposed to live by then they shouldn't be doing anything not listed there.


No, Codex governs more operational and combat changes. Chapter culture is different, with every chapter having a different culture.

In fact......I don't recall the Codex saying anything about the Pain Glove at all. In fact going by Index Astartes: Codex Astartes, it's just with organization and combat methods.

Index Astartes: Codex Astartes


The Codex Astartes further defines the tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform identification markings of the Space Marines. These guidelines have evolved over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the forty first millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history. Some of its contents seem petty and restrictive, hardly worthy of the great mind of the Primarch. Others describe actual battles together with comments on the tactics employed and the decisions of the commanders of the day. As such the Codex Astartes is revered as a holy text, and many Chapters regard its recommendations as sanctified by the Emperor himself.


The Chapters that rigidly follow the recommendations of the Codex Astartes are sometimes referred to as Codex Chapters. These Space Marines adhere to the Codex as the model for their organisation, identification markings and tactical doctrine. Of all the Codex Chapters the most famous is the Ultramarines, the Chapter of Roboute Guilliman himself, and many of the other Codex Chapters are descended from their genetic line.


Most Chapters, however, do not stick so rigidly to the Codex patterns laid down either for organisation, tactical roles or other processes. Many Chapters are largely organised according to the Codex but are further shaped by their home world and the personality of their Primarch. The Blood Angels and Dark Angels are prime examples of this. A small number of Chapters are vastly different from the Codex, and owe nothing at all to it. The most famous of these ‘wild’ Chapters are the Space Wolves, whose strongwilled Primarch, Leman Russ, moulded his Chapter very much in his own image irrespective of other influences.

Note that in all three it's always organization, tactical roles and suchlike. Nothing on the non-combat aspects of a Chapter's culture. (Much of this was reprinted in the Marine Codex on pages 8 and 9. The Imperial Fists are stated repeatedly in their Index Astartes article to match the Ultramarines as a Codex Chapter.



The IA gave the IFs more devestator squads, which isn't codex.


What are you talking about? The IA notes nothing of the sort. In fact the Index Astartes article notes how Codex they are.

Index Astartes Imperial Fists.


Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react. They retain their traditional skills in urban and siege warfare, although they are quite willing to engage and defeat the enemy in open battle. They will use fortifications on the defensive, but only after all more aggressive options have been exhausted. Their only weakness is perhaps a reluctance to accept the possibility of defeat that sometimes blinds them to risk.


Cleansed by their sacrifice, the Imperial Fists immediately began their reorganisation. For the next two decades they went into retreat, their successor Chapters taking to the field in their stead. Dorn used this time to retrain the Chapter to embrace all aspects of the Codex Astartes. When they later emerged, their adherence to the Codex was matched only by the Ultramarines.



Which is a relative comparison.

If every chapter used 30 man squads each armed with terminator armour, a jump pack and a bike and wielding thunder pants, then imperial fists with 15 man squads with 2 heavy weapon are MORE codex by comparison. :p


Except the Fists are susposed to be the epitome of Codex doctrine. See above quotes. They are susposed to completely embody it.

And the Fists don't have 15 man squads with 2 heavy weapons, what are you talking about? In fact where are you getting this from?



The ultramarines are already not codex anyway, what with their overspecialising 1st company doctrines.


Actually that's more recent. For the vast majority of their history they where.

In fact that statement contridicts itself when the Marine Codex itself states that the Ultramarines are completely Codex yet has the Tyranid Hunters.