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Paull
16-12-2010, 15:21
Afternoon Warseer.

just a quick question regarding this Dark Elf item.

Before i start i want to clarify i don't play DE's and this query came up in a game which i was allied with a DE player.

The item itself states

"One use only. the character and any unit he joins can re-roll missed shooting to hit rolls".

now, seems pretty straightforward.... here's where things got a bit funky…..

Nowhere does it say in it's rules that this effect lasts for 1 turn. The item itself can only be used once, meaning that the character can't then leave that unit, join another and use it's effects again.

So this could be construed as RAW that the unit gets to re-roll it's shooting misses untill the end of the game.


Stay with me…..


To give the item context, an item alongside the Guiding Eye in the same army book is the Gem of Nightmares. This item explicitly states that it is also one use only, however the text for this item specifically mentions that the effect lasts until the end of the turn.


Now, I do not agree with what I have just typed. I disagreed with my ally during the game and we played it that the bonus to re-roll misses only lasted for that shooting phase, but looking at it you can see that he had a valid argument.

Curious to see what the community thinks on this?

Regards

Paull

theorox
16-12-2010, 16:17
Is it not in the FAQ's? :)

It seems to imply it is used every turn...?

Theo

Chiungalla
16-12-2010, 16:32
Nowhere does it say in it's rules that this effect lasts for 1 turn. The item itself can only be used once, meaning that the character can't then leave that unit, join another and use it's effects again.

That's because it does not last for one turn. It lasts for one dice roll.

One use only & you can reroll shooting => You can reroll shooting ONCE.

theorox
16-12-2010, 16:59
That's because it does not last for one turn. It lasts for one dice roll.

One use only & you can reroll shooting => You can reroll shooting ONCE.

Oh! I'm with this gentlean then. :)

Theo

Gooner
16-12-2010, 19:23
So does this mean you can make your roll to hit and then if you want to reroll the misses you just use the item?

theorox
17-12-2010, 08:33
So does this mean you can make your roll to hit and then if you want to reroll the misses you just use the item?

Um...possibly? o.O

Theo

Chiungalla
17-12-2010, 08:36
In my opinion, yes.

Atrahasis
17-12-2010, 09:07
Q. When is The Guiding Eye used? (p100)
A. Declare that you will use it after the character and any unit
he has joined rolls to hit, but before rolling to wound.


The 7th ed FAQ had a Q&A saying that it lasted until the end of the shooting phase. That answer is now gone.

giant stegadon
17-12-2010, 14:15
The 3 items before the Guiding Eye all are 1 use, and all have language limiting them to the next turn. That said, its a pretty weaselly stretch to argue this item gives you rerolls on missed shooting for the rest of the game for a cheap point cost.

BlackVomit
17-12-2010, 15:58
That said, its a pretty weaselly stretch to argue this item gives you rerolls on missed shooting for the rest of the game for a cheap point cost.

We're talking about DE here right? ;)

Paull
17-12-2010, 16:49
as giant stegadon has said, the 3 items before guiding eye specifically state that those items have a definitive time scale. where as guiding eye does not.

from what Chuingulla has said it lets you re-roll the dice in the shooting phase when you miss and activate it, but nowhere does it say that this effect lasts for that shooting phase, so could be argued that it lasts indefinately after it has been activated.

I do agree that this is unlikely and this item should be one use only and for that turn or dice rolls only.

Ridd
17-12-2010, 22:33
Personally I think that when someone has to quote a completely different rule (or three)to try and justify an interpretation of another rule then you pretty much know they're trying it on...or maybe I'm just not devious enough to be a Dark Elf after all? One thing I'm sure of is that if I tried this 'interpretation' at my club I'd be playing solo before too long...

AUN'SHI
17-12-2010, 23:05
I would say its is a 1 use only so 1 time thing and thats it..... Im a DE player so id love to be wrong here :D

sulla
18-12-2010, 22:41
"One use only, duration; entire game" would be an exceptionally stupid rule interpretation. The only way it would not function is on the first enemy turn if you didn't win the roll off.

If it looks too good to be true, it generally is. 25pts to reroll all of a unit's shooting for the entire game...

Atrahasis
19-12-2010, 11:09
The rule of thumb "If it looks too good to be true, it generally is" would leave the DE book with about 3 troop choices and the common magic item list.

sulla
19-12-2010, 17:10
And the rule to take the best possible case would have my chariot filling upon 91 unleaded potion of strength....

TheDarkDaff
19-12-2010, 20:37
The rule of thumb "If it looks too good to be true, it generally is" would leave the DE book with about 3 troop choices and the common magic item list.

That's not entirely true. Some of our magic items are so bad they are a waste of ink putting them into the book at all (like the web of shadows, Hydra teeth and Executioner's Axe). But yes, the book does err on the side of overpowered as opposed to our last book that had to be rewritten to be slightly competitive.

OT - You are right that the item can be read like that but it really shouldn't be. But the only way to make any use of the item is to take a really big unit of Crossbowmen which i'm not a fan of anyway so i don't really care.

MrsMuggins
20-12-2010, 19:52
I would be inclined to say rerolls for 1 shooting phase. Then its done with.

theunwantedbeing
20-12-2010, 21:58
It doesn't say how long it lasts, merely that it's only usable once.
So you use it once to re-roll a load of missed shooting attacks and then it's used up and doesn't work anymore.

Chiungalla
21-12-2010, 10:15
OT - You are right that the item can be read like that but it really shouldn't be. But the only way to make any use of the item is to take a really big unit of Crossbowmen which i'm not a fan of anyway so i don't really care.

The item is worth 25 points. It's not that hard to get those points back with a regular sized unit if you face the right opponents.

TheDarkDaff
21-12-2010, 19:48
The item is worth 25 points. It's not that hard to get those points back with a regular sized unit if you face the right opponents.

It's worth about a 2/3 increase in the unit for 1 turn (crossbowmen usually end up hitting on a 5+). So in the standard unit of 10 it is worth 6 extra men( or 1 per turn averaged out). So it is roughly worth it in a 20 man unit. Of course this is all assuming they can shoot every turn ( which almost never happens).

I guess the value of the item is in concentration of force, but it still works better when the unit is larger.

Chiungalla
21-12-2010, 20:02
It's worth about a 2/3 increase in the unit for 1 turn (crossbowmen usually end up hitting on a 5+). So in the standard unit of 10 it is worth 6 extra men( or 1 per turn averaged out). So it is roughly worth it in a 20 man unit. Of course this is all assuming they can shoot every turn ( which almost never happens).

I guess the value of the item is in concentration of force, but it still works better when the unit is larger.

This takes not into account that you can decide whether to use it or not, after you rolled the shooting. If you use it in a turn your dice turned out to be sub-par, it is better.

But in a unit of 10, with average results, this will lead to roughly 14 additional shoots. Hitting on 5+, wounding on 4+ with 6+ armor save left, this will kill 2 Swordmasters.

TheDarkDaff
22-12-2010, 21:03
This takes not into account that you can decide whether to use it or not, after you rolled the shooting. If you use it in a turn your dice turned out to be sub-par, it is better.

But in a unit of 10, with average results, this will lead to roughly 14 additional shoots. Hitting on 5+, wounding on 4+ with 6+ armor save left, this will kill 2 Swordmasters.

It will also kill an additional 1.85 Clanrats or Goblins which are worth considerably less than Swordmasters.

Do the math if you want but it changes the average shooting round against T3 AS5+ troops from 2.78 wounds to 4.63 wounds. A unit of 15 goes from 4.17 to 6.94 wounds (+2.78) and a unit of 20 goes from 5.56 to 9.26 wounds (+3.7).

Now compare to 2 additional Crossbowmen that cause 0.56 wounds per turn on the above unit which works out to 3.33 wounds if they can fire every turn. Simply if the unit is less than 20 strong you get a better return from just buying 2 extra crossbowmen.

But again this doesn't consider application of force as you need those extra crossbowmen to shoot at least 3 times to equal the guiding eye. Of course you also don't have to invest in a character to take the guiding eye if you just take extra crossbowmen.

Palatine Katinka
22-12-2010, 23:22
As mentioned in the text you quoted, you get to choose which round of shooting you use it on. How it affects an average roll is almost meaningless as you probably wont use it on an average roll. You'll use it after a horribly unlucky roll. For example, if a unit of 10 is unlucky enough to get 0 hits and you use Guiding Eye to reroll all of them and get the average (2.78 by your calculations) that'll be an increase higher than 1.85.

TheDarkDaff
23-12-2010, 01:24
As mentioned in the text you quoted, you get to choose which round of shooting you use it on. How it affects an average roll is almost meaningless as you probably wont use it on an average roll. You'll use it after a horribly unlucky roll. For example, if a unit of 10 is unlucky enough to get 0 hits and you use Guiding Eye to reroll all of them and get the average (2.78 by your calculations) that'll be an increase higher than 1.85.

But by the same point it is worth less if you are rolling above average. You also only have 1 or 2 turns to use it at long range after which it again begins to suffer from diminishing returns (it actually gets worse value as your chance to hit increases). I guess i find it hard to justify as i really don't like one use items and nothing in the Enchanted items section really grabs me (the potion and the egg can be useful though). I personally can't justify the character sitting in a shooting unit although i have used it as insurance in a large handbow corsair unit with Noble (either use it on your turn or to stick home a stand and shoot).

I guess what i am trying to say is that i can't justify the cost required (min 105 for a naked noble with the eye) to get it into an x-bow unit simply for some safety against a bad round of shooting. It simply isn't worth it unless you are using a large unit

Chiungalla
23-12-2010, 03:03
You also only have 1 or 2 turns to use it at long range after which it again begins to suffer from diminishing returns (it actually gets worse value as your chance to hit increases).

20 shoots at long range:
6,66 hits
13,33 misses
4,44 additional hits from the guiding eye.

20 shoots at short range:
10 hits
10 misses
5 additional hits from the guiding eye.

So how is this worse?

If you play against skaven: Don't shoot at the clan rats anyway.
And don't shoot at goblins for the same reason.
Handle them in close combat, and shoot at those units that can be a problem, which are usually more points per model.

TheDarkDaff
23-12-2010, 21:22
20 shoots at long range:
6,66 hits
13,33 misses
4,44 additional hits from the guiding eye.

20 shoots at short range:
10 hits
10 misses
5 additional hits from the guiding eye.

So how is this worse?
At 6+ to hit you get 83% more hits with the reroll, at 5+ you get 66% more hits and at 4+ to hit you get 50% more hits. Now tell me what larger out of 83%, 66% and 50%. I guess using the word "worse" was a mistake but you do get less of a return the better your chance to hit.

If you play against skaven: Don't shoot at the clan rats anyway.
And don't shoot at goblins for the same reason.
Handle them in close combat, and shoot at those units that can be a problem, which are usually more points per model.

The point i was making is that you don't always have an optimal unit to shoot at like Swordmasters. Against Skaven (if they know what they are doing) you often get the choice of shoot the Clanrats or the Slaves. Orcs and Goblins are pretty much the same as their high value targets are generally Black Orcs or Orcs (if the go for a horde) as their isn't much point in shooting them.

Chiungalla
25-12-2010, 18:50
At 6+ to hit you get 83% more hits with the reroll, at 5+ you get 66% more hits and at 4+ to hit you get 50% more hits. Now tell me what larger out of 83%, 66% and 50%. I guess using the word "worse" was a mistake but you do get less of a return the better your chance to hit.

What is the largest out of 83%, 66% or 50% is perfectly clear, unless this percentages refer to complete different numbers at all.

83% more then 1,666 hits is less then 66% more then 3,333 hits.
And this is still less then 50% more from 5,000 hits.

Since you don't aim for a higher %-increase, but for a higher increase of hits.

sulla
26-12-2010, 00:13
More importantly, you aim for a meaningful inbcrease in enemy dead... and other than the ost favourable of conditions, it doesn't give you that. Verdict; Leave it out of your list.