PDA

View Full Version : Best Army to Fight Daemons of Chaos?



'lectric-sheep12
17-12-2010, 11:10
I was thinking of collecting either High Elves , Wood Elves or Dark Elves.
Which of those three are the best to fight Daemons with and if none of them are then what other armies might be?
Thanks

RMacDeezy
17-12-2010, 11:27
high elves and dark elves can both give us headaches. wood elves will struggle against daemons. out of curiosity, why choose an army by its ability to defeat one other army?

Oseru
18-12-2010, 03:24
High elves have barely been a speed bump to my daemons.

I haven't gotten to fight wood or dark elves yet so i can't say for them.

Gotrek
18-12-2010, 14:31
dwarfs i figure... as for the elf department i'd say dark elves perhaps thou any elves are underdog to daemons.

wood elves being the worse option couse their book is utter crap right now.

bluemage
18-12-2010, 14:31
I would recommend another demon army.

If that doesn't work for you, than go with skaven or empire.

dimetri1
18-12-2010, 18:33
Dark Elves, definitely.

blackstork
18-12-2010, 19:36
HE are born to beat Daemons

DaemonReign
19-12-2010, 16:27
My experience only stretches over Dwarves, DE, OnG, Empire, and VC.

Here's my experience:

Dark Elves - If your opponant goes beardy (Khaleth, Hotec, Assassins, lots of shooting, BlackGuard.. you know.. the works..) then DoC are dead in the water unless they are really lucky and skillfull. Dark Elves always were a stronger list than DoC (but remember my group never played with SC's).

Dwarves - In 7th Ed they were easy to beat with DoC. In 8th Ed they are the second most difficult to win against.

The Empire and Orcs and Goblins - Not particularly difficult at all to beat as far as I am concerned. The Empire needs to get lucky with shooting, Orcs and Goblins needs alot of luck with Whaagh/Animosity.

VC - Of course they have a chance against DoC. But it's a slim one.

Strictly on a theorethical level other races I concider dangerous are:

High Elves (also elite)
Lizardman and Skaven (well, there's just so darn many of them arn't there..)

RanaldLoec
19-12-2010, 17:22
Ha ha ha ha I laugh at you demons I've crushed you countless times with gunpowder, steel and faith in sigmar.

Empire I've found demons T3 core choices struggle against my mass of cheap infantry and 1+ armour save knights.

My artillery doesn't need luck just a couple of engineers.

Plauge bearers, demonettes can't seem to shift my knights blocks as they can't get past the armour save.

Bloodletters don't have enough attacks to beat my steadfast blocks of state infantry.

That added to one of the best magic defenses in 8th if I'm feeling mean demons struggle. Empire is far from a push over you just need to utilities the Empires strengths.

Woodelves (sigh) its an up hill battle against demons.

FashaTheDog
19-12-2010, 17:34
Woodelves (sigh) its an up hill battle against demons.

It's easier to ice skate up said hill than win with Wood Elves.

DaemonReign
19-12-2010, 18:08
Ha ha ha ha I laugh at you demons I've crushed you countless times with gunpowder, steel and faith in sigmar.

Empire I've found demons T3 core choices struggle against my mass of cheap infantry and 1+ armour save knights.

My artillery doesn't need luck just a couple of engineers.

Plauge bearers, demonettes can't seem to shift my knights blocks as they can't get past the armour save.

Bloodletters don't have enough attacks to beat my steadfast blocks of state infantry.

That added to one of the best magic defenses in 8th if I'm feeling mean demons struggle. Empire is far from a push over you just need to utilities the Empires strengths.

Woodelves (sigh) its an up hill battle against demons.

Well of course... If you get to use your troops in an optimal way to 100% of course you're gonna win easily.

I would still call that luck though. unless you play against peeps who arn't trying.

Xzazzarai
19-12-2010, 23:31
I've fought Daemons serveral times with my Druchii, and allmost allways come out on top.

High Elves can do it pretty well, but wood elves... they're pretty much toast since the Daemons tend to just rip through all CC units the WE can muster.

'lectric-sheep12
20-12-2010, 11:34
It seems that High or Dark Elves are the go but which one?

High elves seem to be really good in 8th edition Warhammer with Always Strike First and rerolls to hit in combat most of the time.

Also, how about Skaven?
I love their models and fluff etc and they seem pretty good if used right.

RanaldLoec
20-12-2010, 12:23
Well of course... If you get to use your troops in an optimal way to 100% of course you're gonna win easily.

I would still call that luck though. unless you play against peeps who arn't trying.

I never said I win easily demons can be a challenge when used right. As can any army in 8th if managed and used correctly.

I will make exceptions regarding Tomb Kings, Woodelves the age of their books or how movement has changed has some what hampered these armys.

Although you can rank armys in very loose terms of "power" buy writing off Empire as useless against demons does the original poster and your self a disservice. How often do you play against Empire, how much experience using Empire does your opponent have.

Luck always has an effect on a game but to write my wins off as luck is lazy considering I've been playing Empire in fantasy since 1990 I would like to put my victorys down to twenty years of experience with my army.

Maybe your Empire opponents just arnt as good a general as you are or you know their play style too well.

Doommasters
20-12-2010, 19:24
Skaven just seem to be good versus everyone. They have a huge range of effective and efficient units, combine this with the amount of units you can field it is a scary prospect facing them with any army.

MrsMuggins
20-12-2010, 19:33
Dark elves work well against demons but who don't we work well against.

The cheap spearmen and repeater crossbows are quite effective against most demon core choices.

Hydras as always perform wonderfully.

It's just the greater demons if you don't down them with magic or shooting then their just horribly effective.

Zentdiam
21-12-2010, 01:44
It is also good to note that dameons can make some really nasty lists against HE, specifically. When my friend and I (he is HE and I am DE) want to go all out and beardy, I can take a ton of daemonetes with a higher INI and ASF negating his rerolls and making my troops a much better choice. Slaneesh in general can really mess up HE. I can also take enough magic to effectively go toe to toe with HE. We also tend to not play SC, so keep that in mind.

Wade Wilson
21-12-2010, 10:23
At the end of the day, although daemons are beasts in c/c most daemon core choices have a toughness 3. ergo, the best way to deal with them is from a distance. Because daemons can include a greater daemon lord you want to be able to take that out before it reaches c/c too. Lots of reliable accurate artillery would be the way to go.

On the off chance that enough daemons (fast blighters that they are)reach combat (normally a charge on turns 2/3)you want to have tough troops who can take the hits and dish them back out, preferably troops with a high T, a good armour save and great weopons.

Just in case combat goes poorly a strong leadership, maybe even stubborn or unbreakable rules would be great, especially for avoiding those fear, terror and panic tests.

Magic defense is essential so an army that can bring out an extra 3 or 4 dispell dice guarenteed each turn would be a boost.

You also want characters who can go toe to toe with a greater daemon and there is not many in the game who can do that...


Off hand i would suggest that Dwarfs fit all these criteria perfectly.

RMacDeezy
21-12-2010, 10:57
Off hand i would suggest that Dwarfs fit all these criteria perfectly.

agreed, they are tough as nails and the changes to infantry, artillery, charges and magic in this edition were extremely kind to them. dwarfs are a powerhouse this time around.

PeG
21-12-2010, 13:19
I started daemons in 8th when the wining stopped and the ones I have most troubles with a the moment are

Dwarf gunlines

If I go magic heavy empire with lots of magic defence

Especially in smaller games ie no GD, warriors of chaos, sufficient armour to happily ignore core daemons with the exception of letters and warriors that strike first with 5S4 attacks each.

Slann, games are usually determined in the first two turns either the frog is toast (or has fallen through earth) or I am in trouble

DE, skaven, HE etc are usually not worse then many others. They have powerbuilds that are really hard and that daemons depending on the game size have troubles matching but so have everybody else (well almost everybody at least).

DaemonReign
21-12-2010, 21:51
After having contemplated this issue for a bit I clicked on this thread just to basically write one single word:

Dwarves.

But it seems that's not really needed here 'cause alot of others have come to the same conclusion.

I'm not sure this has got anything to do with Dwarves being good against DoC in particular - they're probably just The Faction of 8th Ed.

So far at least. By the time all the armybooks have been updated I'm sure the usual power-creep will have thrown things around again.

All though it's gonna take "alot of Skulltakers" to balance all the neat stuff that Dwarves got with 8th Ed.

Gotrek
21-12-2010, 23:27
After having contemplated this issue for a bit I clicked on this thread just to basically write one single word:

Dwarves.

But it seems that's not really needed here 'cause alot of others have come to the same conclusion.

I'm not sure this has got anything to do with Dwarves being good against DoC in particular - they're probably just The Faction of 8th Ed.

So far at least. By the time all the armybooks have been updated I'm sure the usual power-creep will have thrown things around again.

All though it's gonna take "alot of Skulltakers" to balance all the neat stuff that Dwarves got with 8th Ed.


good thing dwarf army book isn't anywhere close then so we can take a little of that powercreep this time while remaining a solid list while we wait for it :D

russellmoo
22-12-2010, 03:18
Brets tend to do well these days as most players don't run Nurgle- they end up as a pretty even match-up, as for the most part Bret's tend to receive a 5+ ward for all of their units, just like most Demons- and then Bret's don't disappear when they lose combat-

Trains_Get_Robbed
22-12-2010, 08:39
HIGH ELVES ALL THE WAY! High elves rape, I have yet to lose facing demon player (or anyone for that matter ^.^ -no tournaments yet though *curses paint brushes* :(). Anything Demons are good or (great) at the H.E are just as good, or have a counter/softener to it.

-C.C we strike first

-High Movement, like the Demons have

-+1 to all dispell attempts

-Can generate high C.R through combi-charges more easliy (due to most demons T3) and inherent items like ex: battle banner

-Offensive Magic can be devastating ex: 60 pink horrors you say? Hi meet my friend Dwellers *Dwarves and O&G etc. . . don't get that last I checked

-Have inherent defense against fire attacks, ex: Dragon Princes, Dragon Armor, Amulet of Fire, Dragon Helm-BrB

-Shooting is effective for once as S3 bowshots can/and do wound as ++5 ward is nothing compared to a +3 A.S

-Rerolling misses in combat is HUGE!!! (though D.E have this)

-Any elite will wipe the floor with any core or special in DoC head to head same point vaule, use this to you advantage when targeting priority

LOOK OUT FOR:

-Greater Demons; tough buggers to slow down, let alone stop

-Large Units (hordes) mainly bunkering hearlds, and or S.Cs ex: Blood Crusher Horde with 2 Hearlds, Bloodletter horde with Skulltaker, Pink Horrors (60)

^^^

For these magic is essential, buffs for your units and debuffs backed with sheer C.R is key to come out on top.

PeG
22-12-2010, 10:34
HE is one ov my most frequent opponents and alhtough I admit that they can be very hard against daemons almost everything they can do to daemons is worse for others.

Sure dwellers will hurt a block of 60 horrors but the same goes for blocks of 100 halbardiers, or lizards etc.

HE will not get rerolls and might not even strike first against slaneesh daemons

HE shooting is S3 and can hurt T3 daemons with 5+ ward but flamers can shoot back and S4 shooting does hurt T3 elves

Twin headed daemons with +6 to cast and extra powerdice from gifts can put out a very powerful magic phase (which empire is better at messing up then HE) etc

No matchups are easy in 8th but I dont agree that HE is the worst one for daemons.

RMacDeezy
22-12-2010, 14:37
HIGH ELVES ALL THE WAY! High elves rape, I have yet to lose facing demon player (or anyone for that matter ^.^ -no tournaments yet though *curses paint brushes* :(). Anything Demons are good or (great) at the H.E are just as good, or have a counter/softener to it.

-C.C we strike first
this is less important against big bloodletter units than it used to be, due to step up.



-High Movement, like the Demons have
with a smattering of fiends and a few seekers and movement 6 skirmishers, i usually have little to no problem out-maneuvering HE


-+1 to all dispell attempts
this is a pain, however the LoC has become my new favorite GD in larger games and he can bust through even the hardest magical defense with lore of tzeentch or +6 to cast.



-Can generate high C.R through combi-charges more easliy (due to most demons T3) and inherent items like ex: battle banner
also less important due to steadfast or the stubborn banners that daemons can take


-Offensive Magic can be devastating ex: 60 pink horrors you say? Hi meet my friend Dwellers *Dwarves and O&G etc. . . don't get that last I checked
this is my personal favorite right now due to glean magic- "hi mr level 4 archmage, meet your own friend Dwellers"


-Have inherent defense against fire attacks, ex: Dragon Princes, Dragon Armor, Amulet of Fire, Dragon Helm-BrB
fire attacks meaning flamers, horrors, LoC and the occasional khorne herald, anti-fire are a pain.


-Shooting is effective for once as S3 bowshots can/and do wound as ++5 ward is nothing compared to a +3 A.S
true, magic is daemons' only defense here, pha's protection, flesh to stone, glittering scales etc


-Rerolling misses in combat is HUGE!!! (though D.E have this)
bloodletters get this also, and HE lose their re-rolls vs daemonettes. don't even ask what happens when birona's special bloodletter horde surprise gets ahold of some elves ;)


-Any elite will wipe the floor with any core or special in DoC head to head same point vaule, use this to you advantage when targeting priority
this is true, but units of 30-40 bloodletters are ubiquitous, units of HE elites of more than 20 are very rare. and when faced with a scary HE elite unit, guess who gets the siren song? swordmasters are mean as hell but even they don't like getting flanked by a daemon core combat unit.


LOOK OUT FOR:

-Greater Demons; tough buggers to slow down, let alone stop

-Large Units (hordes) mainly bunkering hearlds, and or S.Cs ex: Blood Crusher Horde with 2 Hearlds, Bloodletter horde with Skulltaker, Pink Horrors (60)

^^^

For these magic is essential, buffs for your units and debuffs backed with sheer C.R is key to come out on top.

agreed here. you make some excellent points Trains, but you're making the argument that HE can simply dominate every phase of the game which is misleading. movement- HE are quick, DoC have more M6-10 choices than anybody. magic- HE have very powerful magic and anti-magic, DoC can bring just as many dirty magic tricks. shooting- S3 shooting can really hurt DoC, but S4 shooting drops elves in droves. almost guaranteed, the daemon general will look forward to his own shooting phase more than the HE player will to his. combat- HE have some of the best CC units in the game, but this is DoC's strongest phase. from my experience the movement phase is what tips this one in my favor. with so many fast units, its possible to pick combats even against an army like HE, and this is VERY bad for them.


-Large Units (hordes) mainly bunkering hearlds, and or S.Cs ex: Blood Crusher Horde with 2 Hearlds, Bloodletter horde with Skulltaker, Pink Horrors (60)

PS. if this is what your DoC opponents are doing for unit set-ups, please direct them to thedaemoniclegion.com for advice lol