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bound for glory
18-12-2010, 21:58
simple(and i hope not stupid) question: what if the emperor had gotten to some of the primarcs before they had commited to the warmaster? do you think he could have swayed them back into the fold before chaos could have totally won them over? and do you think if the emporer himself went to prosprearo to have magnus give an accounting, would he have given the thousand sons a pass? thanks!

Terminatorphoenix
18-12-2010, 23:39
The Emporer couldn't have done jack besides bring the Primarch's quality wears at rock bottom prices. The Emperor on the other hand...

And in answer to your question, no I don't think so. From what I rember once one is commited to chaos your there forever (Unless you're the Illuminati or The Excorcists) The Gods have your soul. The end.

Kage2020
18-12-2010, 23:53
That might bring up some interesting potential vis-a-vis Fulgrim? And, depending on quite how you see it, the Emperor might have FUBAR'd with regards to Horus.

Again, depending on how you read it. :D

Kage

Infiltraitor
19-12-2010, 00:59
Having read most of the HH series, I'm more convinced now that the Emperor was fully aware that at least some of his sons were going astray. His actions seem to be part of a larger goal and though he may not know the full outcome, too much of his behavior seemed to encourage half of the primarchs to go wayward. Kurze understood from the get go, that the arrival of the Emperor started a clock that ticked down to the Heresy and the annihilation of his planet. Does the Emperor do anything to calm his fears or address his premonition? Nope. He sends him out into the galaxy to scare and kill the hell outtah people. And that's just one example.

He knew more then he let on, but telling the future and then acting on that knowledge is a very, very tricky thing. I think he knew what was going to happen and let it.

Model_Bits_Matt
19-12-2010, 08:16
I think he could have done, after all it was his actions (or inactions) that drove some of them to Chaos anyway and some of them weren't exactly won over by Chaos the first time they were "introduced" either.

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk

Simo429
19-12-2010, 08:21
Fulgrim maybe because he had more knowledge of chaos. He may have been able to save magnus from the pact that he had made with the Dark Gods but then again he couldn't do that for himself. However some he would just killed.

ChaosTicket
19-12-2010, 08:52
Its rather obvious that they would have been more loyal. Alpharius/Omegon never even met the Emperor, and few actually fought beside him for long, so half the Primarchs barely even knew him beyond the first meeting.

Simo429
19-12-2010, 19:18
Its rather obvious that they would have been more loyal. Alpharius/Omegon never even met the Emperor, and few actually fought beside him for long, so half the Primarchs barely even knew him beyond the first meeting.

Are you sure about that?

I know Horus discovered them BUT at the time the Emperor was still with the Crusade.

malika
19-12-2010, 19:26
Its rather obvious that they would have been more loyal. Alpharius/Omegon never even met the Emperor, and few actually fought beside him for long, so half the Primarchs barely even knew him beyond the first meeting.

The Emperor did meet with Alpharius, only for a short amount of time though. Alpharius also met up with his brother Primarchs.

The fluff is sort of contradicting on when Alpharius is found. IIRC the Index Astartes stated that Warmaster Horus encountered Alpharius, the Emperor already being on Terra, whilst the Horus Heresy novels state that Alpharius was already found before Horus was proclaimed Warmaster.

Food for thought...

MarcoSkoll
19-12-2010, 20:05
The Emporer couldn't have done jack besides bring the Primarch's quality wears at rock bottom prices.
If we're being pedantic like that, it's "quality wares".

ODINM4
19-12-2010, 20:22
the emp and the big four needed the heresey to happen so the galaxy didnt go up in flames they needed a balance so half the legions would turn so neither side would ever become completley dominant ,eternal war the light can never be fully consumed by the dark and visversa

malika
19-12-2010, 20:25
Only problem with that theory is that everything is slowly turning totally dark and gloom and doom...

ODINM4
19-12-2010, 20:42
yes exactly just when you think the light will be consumed by the dark you will see the return of the loyal primarchs to restore the balance :shifty:maybe who knows

malika
19-12-2010, 20:52
But wouldn't the balance then get destroyed as well since the darkness would be defeated?

ODINM4
19-12-2010, 21:00
no just before the light beats the dark the prmarchs would vanish again as before starting the decline again

shadowhawk2008
20-12-2010, 04:16
That's a strange conspiracy theory

Londinium
20-12-2010, 21:28
Fulgrim: Didn't go willingly and thus could have been prevented from turning traitor (if you like the HH canon compared to IA)
Mortarion: Not likely although his reasoning for turning is so vague who knows?
Magnus: Very likely although Magnus was always likely to be tinkering with things he shouldn't be. So it's up in the air about whether he would have fallen later.
Lorgar: Likely if the Emperor dropped the whole don't worship me thing but I don't see that ever happening. (although depends on the chronology considering Lorgar fell before Horus and was involved in Horus' fall)
Alpharius: Unlikely in both IA and HH canon.
Angron: Nope. Damage was done in their first meeting, let alone later.
Perturabo: Post Olympia nothing the Emperor could have said would have brought him back, the damage was already done in the Great Crusade and finished off with Olympia.
Night Haunter: Not going to happen, the damage was already done to his relationship with the Imperium before the Heresy broke out.

Nazguire
21-12-2010, 02:29
The Emperor did meet with Alpharius, only for a short amount of time though. Alpharius also met up with his brother Primarchs.

The fluff is sort of contradicting on when Alpharius is found. IIRC the Index Astartes stated that Warmaster Horus encountered Alpharius, the Emperor already being on Terra, whilst the Horus Heresy novels state that Alpharius was already found before Horus was proclaimed Warmaster.

Food for thought...



"Legion" states that the Alpha Legion have only several decades experience. Which since all the Legions were originally founded two hundred years before on Terra, that this means Alpharius has only been catting around the galaxy with the Alpha Legion for several decades.

malika
21-12-2010, 05:59
Well, the entire Great Crusade seemed to have lasted for 200 years, I can imagine that the Primarchs weren't all found around the same year...

Bonzai
21-12-2010, 14:01
I agree. Really, only Magnus and Fulgrim were salvagable at the time of the Heresy. Maybe Lorgar if he started early enough. Ironically, I think Horus himself would have been salvagable, if the Emperor hadn't lied to him, and had prepared him for the truth.

However, Mortarion, Kruze, and Angron were all lost causes from day one. Alpharius..... well, no one knows what's really going on with that guy, and that's kind of the point.

ChaosTicket
22-12-2010, 16:01
Fulgrim wasnt really salvagable, as he was (according to the novels) completely twisted and his soldiers getting various surgeries well before the Istvaan III events, and eventually Possessed by a daemon. Thats one of the novels details I just find as a cop out to explain why Fulgrim, the most loyal Primarch would turn traitor, when he was already clearly traitor before that.

Mortarion could have been saved, he was just too loyal to Horus and not the Emperor, Angron wasnt Loyal to the Emperor at all, but was loyal to Horus.

Kurze is a mystery, as he legion specialised in strategic attacks that would demoralise the enemy, like a combination of the Raven Guards' and Alpha Legion sabotage and World Eaters' masscres. He also had visons like Sanguinius but his were not of the good futures, but the bad futures, and he got into a fight with Rogal Dorn when he told one of his visions to Fulgrim who passed in on to Dorn. His disloyalty was more of a surprise then the others, simply because he was so loyal he even destroyed his own home when the populace rebelled against the Imperium, and still fought for the Emperor when he had his visions of the dark future.

Even now the Night Lords are one of the least mutated traitor legions, and dont use daemons.

Londinium
22-12-2010, 16:26
It depends on when in the timeline that the Big E interferred with Fulgrim. He was salvagable right up until the eve of Istvaan V, which lets remember is when the legion fully fell to Slaneesh. Until then he had been exhibiting symptoms of excessive pride and perfectionism and was tampering with his marines; however he hadn't fallen to Slaneesh and was still loyal.

Actually his reasoning for joining Horus is kinda weak and unexplained, we know he was falling to Slaneesh at the time but we don't really have a reasoning for why he decided to throw his lot in with Horus other than the Emperor was holding back the marines from ultimate perfection.

malika
22-12-2010, 16:36
Wouldn't the Chaplains and Warrior Lodges (and with it the Word Bearers perhaps?) play a role in this?

ChaosTicket
22-12-2010, 18:43
The chaplains and warrior lodges arent mentioned much in corrupting the legions, at least before the First Heretic apparently. The were part of the Luna Wolves definately, but the full extent before that novel they arent mentioned much.

I dont think the Emperor's Children were capable of being saved because they already had freaky art, surgery for things like screaming organs, before istvaan 3, and by istvaan 5 they had Noise Marines, and were pure Slaanesh cultists.

Londinium
22-12-2010, 18:58
The chaplains and warrior lodges arent mentioned much in corrupting the legions, at least before the First Heretic apparently. The were part of the Luna Wolves definately, but the full extent before that novel they arent mentioned much.

I dont think the Emperor's Children were capable of being saved because they already had freaky art, surgery for things like screaming organs, before istvaan 3, and by istvaan 5 they had Noise Marines, and were pure Slaanesh cultists.

Corax messed around with his legion's geneseed and the Raven Guard are amongst the most loyal chapters around. I don't really find Fulgrim's splicing around with the EC's geneseed to be a stumbling block, certainly it was an issue and something he'd have had to stop. However it doesn't mean he was so far down the line he was unsavable.

Bonzai
23-12-2010, 13:47
The chaplains and warrior lodges arent mentioned much in corrupting the legions, at least before the First Heretic apparently. The were part of the Luna Wolves definately, but the full extent before that novel they arent mentioned much.

I dont think the Emperor's Children were capable of being saved because they already had freaky art, surgery for things like screaming organs, before istvaan 3, and by istvaan 5 they had Noise Marines, and were pure Slaanesh cultists.

The Lodges were a baby step process that sort of primed the Luna Wolves for conversion, but the real catalyst was Horus himself.

The Fulgrim novel kind of gave me a mixed impression myself. On one hand, it seems to place blame on Fulgrim's fall entirely on the Daemon possed sword. However, it also hinted that the legion had already taken it's first steps toward Slaaanesh. Legion aside however, if the Emperor had been around, he would have been able to sense the taint, and perhaps purge Fulgrim of it. Without it, Fulgrim would have never killed Ferris Manus, or betrayed him.

ChaosTicket
23-12-2010, 14:39
Corax rapidly increased harvesting of geneseed, to allow the Raven Guard to fight during the Heresy after being annihilated at Istvaan 5, and then defects were created some permanent like the white skin and raven hair then carry to this day, and they had their own kind of "wulfen", as mutant astartes that Corax personally euthanized when the fighting was done.

The Emperor's Children were deforming themselves to increasingly non-human standards, both physically thanks to Fabius Bile's surgeries and mentally. Physically they had a chance to be saved but mentally, they were far gone, especially Fulgrim.

malika
23-12-2010, 14:55
Didn't the Raven Guard always have that "Crow-look" with the white skin and black eyes?

shadowhawk2008
25-12-2010, 09:17
Didn't the Raven Guard always have that "Crow-look" with the white skin and black eyes?

I believe so.

ChaosTicket
25-12-2010, 11:00
I dont know what "Crow-look" means, but the discoloration of skin and hair are genetic defects. They havent been in the Horus Heresy Novels, so that doesnt help.

Raven Guard arent in many of the Big battles like 13th Black Crusade, Armageddon wars, etc. what are they doing?

I found the Raven Guard interesting in the Index, mainly as they were the only astartes that could use drop pods without the Drop Pod Assault mission, could have jump pack Command squads and were otherwise pretty vanilla, so little drawbacks.

Londinium
25-12-2010, 20:44
I dont know what "Crow-look" means, but the discoloration of skin and hair are genetic defects. They havent been in the Horus Heresy Novels, so that doesnt help.

Raven Guard arent in many of the Big battles like 13th Black Crusade, Armageddon wars, etc. what are they doing?

I found the Raven Guard interesting in the Index, mainly as they were the only astartes that could use drop pods without the Drop Pod Assault mission, could have jump pack Command squads and were otherwise pretty vanilla, so little drawbacks.

Being ignored by the Black Library and codecii basically. Although it's changed recently with Hunt for Voldorius, Raven's Flight, a little cameo in TFH and a new short story in Age of Darkness. For years they were one of the largely forgotten loyalist legions along with the Salamanders, Iron Hands and White Scars. In the 40k timeline they are basically stealthy vanilla marines, nothing to really make them stand out unless in the hands of an author who knows what he's doing and who touches upon their Heresy lore.