PDA

View Full Version : Pariahs



Balgora
20-12-2010, 02:06
After reading the solitaire thread forward back and sideways I have an odd nagging thought that i'm not sure about.

Pariah's are born soulless, has there ever been any fluff to make the distinction between there never being any soul connected to them, or if at that moment of going from nothing to something with a soul they split apart and go their seperate ways(and perhaps where it ends up).

If the latter were the case it would make a pariah something more of an "empty vessel" that could potentially be filled again.

I'm having odd thoughts about writing a story about experimentation on the subject :D to make pariahs more difficult to detect.

Stonerhino
20-12-2010, 03:36
First, there a few different Pariahs.

There are Necron Pariah, lower case pariahs and Non-Necron Pariah.

The lower case pariah is someone who is the word pariah. (pariah = (Sociology) a social outcast.)
The Necron Pariah are a group of human Blanks that have joined the Necrons. They are a mix of human tissue with advanced Necron tech so as to be an anti psyker weapon.
The non-Necron Pariah are blanks. They have a negative effect on the warp the same way that a psyker has a positive effect on it.

Balgora
20-12-2010, 05:01
Thankyou for your comment..:confused:

Maybe I wasn't very clear :eyebrows:, I will try to fix that when I'm less tired and less likely to make mistakes without realising.

Nope, i've re-read it a few times and i'm still not sure why you responded with that..

MagosHereticus
20-12-2010, 05:10
First, there a few different Pariahs.

There are Necron Pariah, lower case pariahs and Non-Necron Pariah.

The lower case pariah is someone who is the word pariah. (pariah = (Sociology) a social outcast.)
The Necron Pariah are a group of human Blanks that have joined the Necrons. They are a mix of human tissue with advanced Necron tech so as to be an anti psyker weapon.
The non-Necron Pariah are blanks. They have a negative effect on the warp the same way that a psyker has a positive effect on it.

dont forget the lesser form of blank, who have a very small presence in the warp (sometimes non at all) and so a virtually invisible to deamons but they do not obstruct the powers of the warp

Stonerhino
20-12-2010, 05:33
Thankyou for your comment..:confused:

Maybe I wasn't very clear :eyebrows:, I will try to fix that when I'm less tired and less likely to make mistakes without realising.

Nope, i've re-read it a few times and i'm still not sure why you responded with that..I responded that way because a pariah can be as simple as a social outcast. To the probable limit of a blank in a Necron Pariah.

What you are asking is if a Blank (A pre-Necroned Pariah) is born that way, made that way or if any fluff makes them empty. To all of that a blank is not soulless. They have a negative soul to verying degrees. They are born that way just as a psyker is born with an increased presents in the warp.

agurus1
20-12-2010, 06:03
After reading the solitaire thread forward back and sideways I have an odd nagging thought that i'm not sure about.

Pariah's are born soulless, has there ever been any fluff to make the distinction between there never being any soul connected to them, or if at that moment of going from nothing to something with a soul they split apart and go their seperate ways(and perhaps where it ends up).

If the latter were the case it would make a pariah something more of an "empty vessel" that could potentially be filled again.

I'm having odd thoughts about writing a story about experimentation on the subject :D to make pariahs more difficult to detect.

your first assumption is correct. Pariahs, are souless and always have been. They are essentially a bit of negative energy in the warp which makes them so terrifying for psykers, and their ilk.

The only difference is where they come from.

pariahs (or psycic nulls) used by the Imperium have the Pariah Gene, which means they are soulless, and are a negative imprint in the warp. There are rumors that the Necrons imprinted the Pariah Gene into humanity, and it is from the captured citizens of Imperial planets the Necrons draw the raw material (a la captured nulls) to create their Necron Pariah warriors.

the only other nulls there are would be the Tau race as a whole, who have no imprint on the warp and thus cannot access the Immaterium for warp travel, limited the expansion of their empire.

Askil the Undecided
20-12-2010, 08:58
Sorry Argus1 you're wrong.

Essentially there is a scale of warp presence from Alpha plus (super psyker) to Omega Minus (Culexus assassin Pariah)

Kappa, Lambda, Mu, Nu, Xi, Omicron, Pi, Rho are all normal human levels.

Below Rho are the negative psychic levels

Tau, Sigma these are "Blunts" those who are obvious to the warp (like the Tau.)

Psi, Chi, Phi, Upsillon these are the levels where a negative impact on the use of psychic abilities begin ranging from increased resistance to total immunity

Omega. Complete immunity, projecting an aura or such immunity or variable size "untouchable" or "Pariah"

Omega Minus. This is Culexus territory, complete immunity and aura of disruption able to drive psykers mad by it's mere presence.

Pariahs can be made using sorcery in the form of "soulguards" but they cannot be "filled" imagine them as psychic black holes, the lower the rating the larger the radius of efect.

Iuris
20-12-2010, 11:06
Say, Askil, where's the source of that? Especially the artificial Pariahs bit sounds interesting.

And don't say Lexicanum...

Lord Damocles
20-12-2010, 11:19
Information on The Assignment can be found under 'Psychic Mastery' in The Inquisition: An Illustrated Guide to the Secretive Protectors of the Imperium, pg.67.

Lexicanum quotes it accurately: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Assignment

Askil the Undecided
20-12-2010, 11:23
What I wrote is basically a more concise version of the quote Damocles mentioned on Lexi.

As for soulguards it's the Inquisitor rulebook mentions that Quixos (the radical taken out by young Eisenhorn) had mastered the art of making soulguards.

Lord Damocles
20-12-2010, 11:42
As for soulguards it's the Inquisitor rulebook mentions that Quixos (the radical taken out by young Eisenhorn) had mastered the art of making soulguards.
I don't suppose you have a page number? I couldn't find any mention in my copy.

There is a mention of Soulguards in Codex: Daemonhunters though:
'He [Quixos] had also mastered the art of creating Soulguards - individuals who were psychic vacuums what could absorb magic and protect those nearby from the baleful energies of Chaos.'
Codex: Daemonhunters, pg.58


Of course, this doesn't confirm that they're Pariahs - they could be bound psykers etc. like the Penitent(s) from Codex: Witch Hunters (pg.16)

The only other reference to Soulguard I could find was in relation to a character called Oahebs from the Last Chancers series (Armageddon mission) - although Lexicanum gives no evidence that he (she?) was a Pariah other than linking to the page titled 'Blank' - which then doesn't even mention Soulguards!

MagosHereticus
21-12-2010, 03:15
I don't suppose you have a page number? I couldn't find any mention in my copy.

There is a mention of Soulguards in Codex: Daemonhunters though:
'He [Quixos] had also mastered the art of creating Soulguards - individuals who were psychic vacuums what could absorb magic and protect those nearby from the baleful energies of Chaos.'
Codex: Daemonhunters, pg.58


it it walks like a duck as the saying goes

Lord Damocles
22-12-2010, 08:48
it it walks like a duck as the saying goes

If it walks like a duck but hasn't actually been shown to *be* a duck..?

Askil the Undecided
22-12-2010, 09:33
If it looks like a sceptic and it talks like a sceptic it might just in fact be a person who unrealistically requires as-yet unwritten canon to justify a simple logical inferrence.

Note that Inquisitors tend to say blanks and pariahs are "almost impossible" to create artificially.

Balgora
22-12-2010, 20:57
I guess nobody found the reverse concept interesting, binding souls to pariahs to temporarily counter their influence or as a form of torture for everything involved :o. Oh well, probably a silly idea for a story.

That's still what I was thinking when you mentioned "psychic black holes", now there's a thought.
Do you think a pariah could be used to erase the taint from a corrupted item? If not outright then to weaken the daemon/chaos taint's hold on it.

Or as guards of chaos artifacts :D

I know the imperium has some trouble with being sure about tainted weapons that marines want to use because of their history, the whole "oh we lost this sacred sword of a primarch fighting daemons and now we have it back" scenario.

TheRatsInTheWalls
22-12-2010, 21:22
I guess nobody found the reverse concept interesting, binding souls to pariahs to temporarily counter their influence or as a form of torture for everything involved :o. Oh well, probably a silly idea for a story.

...

I like the idea. How are you planning to justify the soul's removal from it's current vessel?

Askil the Undecided
22-12-2010, 21:47
Why bother destroying or risking the destruction of such a rare and fragile weapon in the fight against Chaos, Deamons and psykers?

Also how? The concept is as mad as trying to force shadows into a lightbulb so it gives off darkness or attempting to take a tornado hostage.

Also I used the term black hole I meant to convey "cannot be filled, controlled or stopped in any way" no just "sucks up stuff" just to make it clear.

Stonerhino
22-12-2010, 22:12
I forget where I read it but iirc when a psyker that spends to much time near a blank they start to lose their connection to the warp.

Also isn't there a stroy of the IoM bringing blanks to Mar for study. But when they started gathering them. The blanks started dimming the astronomican and so got taken off of Mars.

Balgora
23-12-2010, 06:31
Also how? The concept is as mad as trying to force shadows into a lightbulb so it gives off darkness or attempting to take a tornado hostage.


You're beginning to slip into justifying things against how you feel they work in reality.

I'd probably agree with you if you'd used any lore based argument, but you didn't and so I get the feeling that it's more because you just don't like the idea and by default therefore it must be impossible.

I'm more than happy to listen to any fluff that has to do with any of the questions i've actually asked, i'm also more than happy to listen to any speculation on offer, but just saying "it's as impossible as an impossible thing in reality" isn't really constructive :/.
Anyway, what makes you say that bringing a chaos tainted weapon into contact would destroy it? Is there any background that covers that?

Not all tainted things are valuable/useful, and most are going to be destroyed anyway, so it's not like the two things(pariahs and tainted items) will never be allowed to come into contact.


I like the idea. How are you planning to justify the soul's removal from it's current vessel?

I was thinking captured soulstones or just good old handwavium of "SCIENCE AND PSYKERS HAS FOUND THE WAY TO REMOVE A DELICIOUS SOUL SO THAT IT WON'T ROT AND WE CAN EAT IT LATER"

Askil the Undecided
23-12-2010, 08:20
Fair enough, I suppose.

Let's set some ground rules.

A negatve psychic "charge" effectively renders void any form of positive psychic "charge" this is the "pariah effect" yes?

If we cannot agree on this there is no point in trying to justify anything further.

If you agree with the above the following follows fairly logically.

A soul is a source of warp energy positive or negative like a static charge generator, it is not a "free" charge like a psychic power, the manifest body of a deamon or genestealer brood telepathy as all of the latter can be disrupted or even destroyed by the "pariah effect" a however soul is not destroyed (there are no canon cases of such) but it's positive charge is bled away causing the intense discomfort and small mental problems attributed to prolonged exposure. (I seem to recall possibly eisenhorn mentioned that normal positive souled people who spend too long with negative souled individuals suffer minor neurological problems like memory loss, lack of coordination and suchlike.)

This where things get fiddly:

If you ascribe wholly to the "charge" theory as an objective measure of extent ie. think a negative charge is relative and equal to a positive one of the same extent, then all negative souls have a threshold of resistance after which psychic effect will function normally on them to use a simile to illustrate.

A negative soul is like an indestructable wall behind which one can take refuge from the tidal wave of a psychic effect, however if the wave is taller than the wall you still get wet. A sufficiently powerful psychic effect may overcome the resistance and effect a negatively souled individual in a reduced manner.

On the other hand if you ascribe to the "totality" theory that negative souls are essentially unassailable and after a set level grant total nullification and immunity. Then no matter how tall the wave is the wall is part of a sealed unit. As such no positive charge can affect it at all.

As such:

Any soul bought into a Pariah's area of affect would either degrade until essentially it's psychic charge equalises (being that opposites attempt to equalise) to the middle point of the positive and negative charges (charge theory) or be rendered utterly devoid of charge (totality theory.)

This brings into question the scale used in the assignment being that it has 18 positive grades and only 9 negative.

As such an alpha plus psyker faced with an omega plus pariah would either lose his powers totally (essentially nullifying his soul's charge) or would move down the scale 9 places to iota (a consciously controllable moderate psychic ability) the lowest grade considered a psyker in Imperial terms.

As such a positive soul of lesser charge would simply be rendered void it's positive charge dissipated completely (totality theory) or possibly even bought to a negative level (charge theory.)

It just occurred this might be the foundation for a seminal work on the nature of Positive-Negative psychic interaction.

Lord Damocles
23-12-2010, 08:22
If it looks like a sceptic and it talks like a sceptic it might just in fact be a person who unrealistically requires as-yet unwritten canon to justify a simple logical inferrence.
So if the canon is 'unwritten' as you now say, your original claim - presented as fact - that you can artificially create a Pariah/Untouchable (etc.) was, in actuality, not fact?


So far you've given no solid source for your claim (no page number for the supposed reference from the Inquisitor Rulebook), and provided no counter to the possibility that Soulguards are in fact some kind of bound psyker (as per the Penitent from Codex: Witch Hunters (pg.16)).

It is the person making the positive claim on whom the burden of proof lies.



Note that Inquisitors tend to say blanks and pariahs are "almost impossible" to create artificially.
Any source(s) (inc page number(s))? Or should we just take it on trust again..?

Lycannus
23-12-2010, 08:47
Also how? The concept is as mad as trying to force shadows into a lightbulb so it gives off darkness or attempting to take a tornadclearo hostage.



And Yet the Dark Eldar can probably do both, I wonder what they think of Pariah's actually, since they are so anti Psyker?

Read Nemesis for a good Idea of what a pariah can do, and the negativity of its soul

Askil the Undecided
23-12-2010, 08:58
For soulguards existance it's the same quote you used from it's original location in the "Inqisitor Quixos" fluff on Page 10 of the Printed Inquisitor Rulebook, ISBN 1-84154-077-3.

As for the "almost impossible."

"Untouchables are rare, and almost impossible to create artificially."

page 61, Eisenhorn Omnibus, ISBN 1-84416-156-0

THe unwritten soulguard fluff you have gone rabid over ultimately amounts to the words "like a pariah." tacked onto the end of that oh so handily recycled quote from the inquisitor rulebook.

As to burden of proof (where are we, university?) where's your proof they are psykers wasn't that an assertion too?

I'd think the fact they are mentioned in a story of vile and evil scorcery would rather imply that the creation of soulguards is hardly one looked upon well by the Inquisition.

Take it easy. Where talking about fluff not the fundamental building blocks of life the universe and everything.

Lord Damocles
23-12-2010, 09:43
For soulguards existance it's the same quote you used from it's original location in the "Inqisitor Quixos" fluff on Page 10 of the Printed Inquisitor Rulebook, ISBN 1-84154-077-3.
Thank you for the reference.
I have the PDF copy of the rulebook from the GW website which explains why it's not in my copy.

Notice that I never questioned the actual existance of Soulguards - I questioned whether they were definately Pariahs.



As for the "almost impossible."

"Untouchables are rare, and almost impossible to create artificially."

page 61, Eisenhorn Omnibus, ISBN 1-84416-156-0
Thank you for the reference.

Most illuminating.



THe unwritten soulguard fluff you have gone rabid over ultimately amounts to the words "like a pariah." tacked onto the end of that oh so handily recycled quote from the inquisitor rulebook.
Can I ask you to clarify this point? Does the Inquisitor rulebook actually say, '...individuals who were psychic vacuums what could absorb magic and protect those nearby from the baleful energies of Chaos like a pariah'?


Not that it's really all that important a point - Unless a canon source actually directly states one way or the other whether Soulguard are Pariahs or not, we'll never know for certain.



As to burden of proof (where are we, university?) where's your proof they are psykers wasn't that an assertion too?
I never claimed that Soulguard were/are bound psykers. I presented it as a possibility, and clearly noted it as such.


If we're to have any reasonable discussion of the *actual background* - as opposed to what we think the background is, or what we want the background to be - proof for claims simply has to be given.

Without some proof of a claim being presented, anyone could claim literally anything and have it taken as correct - I could have claimed that Soulguard are giant marshmallow squid men for example. No need for me to provide any proof for my claim. we're not at university after all.


Also, you only need scroll through 40K Background - or Lexicanum for that matter - to see that what essentially amounts to fan-fic can be presented as canon and repeated ad infinitum until the line between what is canon and what is not becomes *extremely* hazy without adequet references (title, edition, page number ought to suffice).

A common example: There are Orks in other galaxies. We know this because humans sent a probe out and it keeps sending back Orky signals.
Except in the original text, no mention is made of the probe ever going beyond the Milky Way! (Codex: Orks (2nd ed.), pg.10). The erroneous claim has been repeated so frequently, and for so long, without any question, that it is now widely regarded as being fact.



I'd think the fact they are mentioned in a story of vile and evil scorcery would rather imply that the creation of soulguards is hardly one looked upon well by the Inquisition.
How they/their creation may be looked upon by the Inquisition is neither here nor there regarding the question of what they actually are.



Take it easy. Where talking about fluff not the fundamental building blocks of life the universe and everything.
I am taking it easy, I assure you.
I'm also not rabid, just in case anyone was wondering... :shifty:

Askil the Undecided
23-12-2010, 13:35
Fair enough, I suppose although I can safely say there are quite a few people about on Warseer who know their stuff well enough regulate wild fantasy and clamp down hard on straight out fanfic and non-canon dreamings without specific sources being stated as a matter of course.

Balgora
23-12-2010, 19:44
I'm kinda sick atm and have only just woken up, so forgive me if i'm getting this wrong, but your "effects attempting to cancel each other" point seems to be roughly the idea I had, somehow binding a soul to a pariah in an attempt to mask the effect for a temporary period of time, for nefarious undertakings of course. :P

The logic being that the two forces are roughly in balance and so are somehow both hidden, but since to me the pariah is the unmovable object of the scenario(since psykers have no real counter effect on the pariah just by being nearby and instead only being able to influence them by continuous force of will). The bastardised soul will eventually lose leaving a pariah in the middle of somewhere he normally couldn't get near :), 'PARIAH BOMB' style.

I'm not entirely sure if my original question was answered though.

Whether or not a psyker is born to be exactly how they are, or whether the gene that causes it makes it impossible for their body to hold onto their own 'positive charge' that they should have had naturally.

I'm also kinda glad I poked you into a big interesting post Askil :P I like reading those.

Gazak Blacktoof
24-12-2010, 09:23
Given that the necrons and assassin templums can seemingly dial-up the effects of a pariah I don't see why they couldn't dial it down. You might then be able to make them passable as a human rather than the soulless monsters they are.