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colrouphobic
20-12-2010, 12:30
I was wondering whether there are any known Fallen Sisters of Battle forces? Are there any fluff on it or are there any fanbased material only?
Is it possible at all?

I am, I admit, quite lacking the knowledge on Sisters of Battle to have any form of knowledge on how possible it would or would not be for a SoB order to fall (not just individuals but entire orders) and so any and all info or thoughts from you guys will be very appreciated.




By "order" I don't mean an entire order as in the sense of 15000 SoB's, but rather a force, or convent if you will, of individual Sororitas that become renegade/follows chaos.
"Preceptory"?

I know there are accounts of (atleast fiction) fallen individual Sororitas, but I
m wondering about a group of them, 100+ SoB's...

Lord Damocles
20-12-2010, 12:31
Daemonifuge Book 1 features Slaaneshi Sisters.

eldargal
20-12-2010, 12:41
Miriael Sabathiel is the only known Adepta Sororitas to fall to Chaos.

Daemonifuge is to SoB what anything by Goto is to Eldar, in that regard at least.

Erazmus_M_Wattle
20-12-2010, 12:46
SoB should fall to chaos as often as any other regular human. That is all that they are after all.

Space Marines undergo psycho surgery and brainwashing. I get that they are resilient. But Sisters? Surely they crack as easily as other humans?

I think it's ridiculous that they put in the background that only one has ever turned to Chaos.

eldargal
20-12-2010, 12:55
SoB are a foil to Space Marines. The Primarchs and the Space Marines are the greatest of the Emperors creations, super humans and all that. But they are flawed, they can be corrupted and their loyalty is suspect. The SoB are regular women whose Faith and incorruptibility put their loyalty to the Emperor beyond question. They do undergo intensive indoctrination (brain washing;)) at the Schola Progenium, and when not fighting their entire lives are devoted to prayer and worship of the Emperor. To paraphrase Codex:WH, the SoB represent the very best of Humanity, the apotheosis of faith, purity and devotion. Space Marines, on the other hand, are not really human at all anymore.

Lord Damocles
20-12-2010, 13:06
Miriael Sabathiel is the only known Adepta Sororitas to fall to Chaos.
Source and direct quote?

AlexHolker
20-12-2010, 13:16
There are no Fallen SoB forces. You cannot make one without ******** on their fluff for the sake of your own, which is always a bad thing.


SoB should fall to chaos as often as any other regular human. That is all that they are after all.
No. Sisters of Battle are chosen specifically for a trait that protects them from the influence of Chaos - their True Faith in the Emperor. Your position is like assuming a highly trained marksman should not have reflexes or motor control better than average.


Space Marines undergo psycho surgery and brainwashing. I get that they are resilient. But Sisters? Surely they crack as easily as other humans?
No, because you incorrectly assume that Space Marine psychosurgery and brainwashing is the best way of protecting yourself. Grey Knights use even more drastic psychosurgery and brainwashing, and that is comparable.


Source and direct quote?
From Codex: Sisters of Battle: "A sign of the Sisters strength is the fact that in their entire history only a single sister, Miriael Sabathiel, has fallen to the lure of Chaos. How Miriael fell is unknown, only that she was turned from the Emperor's light to Slaanesh worship, and now serves as one of the prince of chaos' greatest warriors."

Shamana
20-12-2010, 13:24
Just to chime in... there may be more, depending on how "fallen" and "renegade" are interpreted. For example, what would you call a sister who develops psychic abilities and has subsequently been evicted/escapes from the order? The DH supplement for radical inquisitors talks about such cases and has it as a character option. I'm away from my books now, but I think it stated even with the Inqusition's influence, the best such former sisters can expect from their previous comrades is "not shot on sight if the ********* ***** gets away as fast as she can."


It would be interesting to see if there's more on the topic in the upcoming book about Ecclesiarchal characters, Blood of Martyrs. Surely, a topic such as heresy and damnation will receive its due censure :) .

Lord Damocles
20-12-2010, 13:28
From Codex: Sisters of Battle:

Going to narrow it down further than 1 of 65 pages?

Or did you just quote directly from Lexicanum (which -perhaps tellingly - gives no page number)?

quantumcollider
20-12-2010, 14:18
The Commissar Ciaphas Cain novel "Cain's last stand" features a group of Sisters of Battle that sided with the Chaos warmaster.

True, they were psychically dominated by Varan, and were temporarily released when they came into close range of psychic blank Jurgen. Nevertheless, their faith did not protect them against the initial conversion, nor against the lasting effects even when Varan was already dead.

Also, the Dark heresy RPG now includes Sisters of Battle as Player Characters (and the other orders as well). They can be corrupted too, like any other PC.

Polaria
20-12-2010, 14:19
Going to narrow it down further than 1 of 65 pages?

Or did you just quote directly from Lexicanum (which -perhaps tellingly - gives no page number)?

I just paged through some of the most recent SoB sources. Codex: Witch hunter simply doesn't say anything on the matter. It doesn't mention a single "fallen" sister, but it also doesn't explicitly say that Sisters are immune to corruption. The only thing it says is that Faith makes them more resistant of daemonic and psychic influence.

Dark Heresy Inquisitors Handbook pretty much says the exact same thing with longer text. Dark Heresy Radical's Handbook explicitly diallows sorcerous and warp-dabbling packages from Sister characters but allows creating two kinds of Radical SoBs: One with "Blighted Schola Progenitum" background and one with "Witch sight". Without infriging on the intellectual property too much neither of those makes a Sister a clear-cut chaos worshipper, but it does make one "fallen" in the eyes of her own organization since the Adepta don't tolerate even a hint of forbidden knowledge or witchery in their ranks.

eldargal
20-12-2010, 14:40
The Invitation by Dan Abnett in Dark Millennium Anthology (I think) introduced Miriael Sabathiel and states that prior to her 'none (of the SoB) had fallen to Chaos'.
I was positive that only one SoB falling to Chaos was mentioned in the 2nd edition codex, but that she wasn't mentioned by name. But now I can't find the quote at all, but I remember making my own fallen SoB character back when the codex was released based on the passage.:wtf:

Shamana
20-12-2010, 15:09
Hm, I must have missed the part about blighted progena sisters, but if it's true (I'll need to check when I come back home) this makes little sense. The homeworld package represents training from before the character's induction, and the blighted scholae kept a pretty low profile to avoid censure from more puritan institutions. If the AdSor found out about them, they wouldn't exactly take initiates from their ranks... and I'd think they do care about knowing the upbringing of their members.

Polaria
20-12-2010, 15:21
Hm, I must have missed the part about blighted progena sisters, but if it's true (I'll need to check when I come back home) this makes little sense. The homeworld package represents training from before the character's induction, and the blighted scholae kept a pretty low profile to avoid censure from more puritan institutions. If the AdSor found out about them, they wouldn't exactly take initiates from their ranks... and I'd think they do care about knowing the upbringing of their members.

I checked it again and in fact it is not a legal combination as Blighted Schola gives you 1d5+1 corruption points and Adepta Sororitas can't begin game with any corruption points... Oh well, they still can GET corruption points, though, so its not like they are completely immune to chaos.

Lord Damocles
20-12-2010, 15:41
I hunted down a copy of The Invitation from Tales From The Dark Millenium.


'Where are you, Miriael? Karamanz wondered. That wasn’t the real question. The real question was what did they do to you?

What did the vile powers of Chaos manage to do to you when they held you in their clutches? Verdicon. That’s where it happened. Miriael Sabathiel, sister superior, had been reported as missing in action during the vicious fighting against the unholy Emperor’s Children.

And then this. Back from the dead. Back, but changed. Changed in ways no other sister of battle had ever been changed.

Second only to the mighty Astartes, the sisters of battle were the most perfect fighting mechanisms of the Imperium of Man. Unlike the Astartes, none of them had ever fallen to corruption. What a trophy for Chaos. What a twisted champion.'
'The Invitation' in 'Tales From the Dark Millenium' (the copy I got hold of doesn't have page numbers)


It would appear that the 'none had ever fallen to corruption' is part of the thoughts/internal dialogue of Canoness Karamanz - and is therefore a falible in-universe perspective.

Even if read from the omniscient narrator viewpoint, there is no date associated with the story so it still wouldn't preclude fallen/corrupted Sisters being present after the hunt for Miriael.


Myth busted?

Lockjaw
20-12-2010, 16:34
why not, it's a big galaxy, and when space marines and imperial worlds can turn to chaos, I doubt all militant space nuns are immune.

personally I'd like to see more fallen SOB armies that are tzeenetch or other chaos god themed, all the ones I see people convert are generally Slaanesh.

Polaria
20-12-2010, 16:40
personally I'd like to see more fallen SOB armies that are tzeenetch or other chaos god themed, all the ones I see people convert are generally Slaanesh.

Don't you find the concept of naughty nuns tempting?

Asi the Red
20-12-2010, 16:52
From Grey Knights by Ben Counter, page 239 in the Omnibus:

'Sisters, ready! Lachryma and the Knights will lead. Steel your souls, for the Enemy will try to take you first.' Ludmilla turned to Alaric. 'I know the Grey Knights have never had a brother lose their mind to Chaos. But the Adepta Sororitas have lost Sisters to the Enemy before. It is rare, and no one will admit to it, but...'
'It is bad enough that Ghargatuloth has used you,' said Alaric. 'I would not let any of you live on with your minds violated.'

spetswalshe
20-12-2010, 17:17
No. Sisters of Battle are chosen specifically for a trait that protects them from the influence of Chaos - their True Faith in the Emperor. Your position is like assuming a highly trained marksman should not have reflexes or motor control better than average.

Catholic priests are chosen specifically for their True Faith in the Catholic Church. And we all know what some of them up to.

I see absolutely no reason why Sisters should not have renegades, like every other aspect of human society, except for that one quote (that is contradicted as pointed out above). I can see no Grey Knight having been corrupted, because they number a few thousand, while the Sororitas likely number in the billions. We have fallen Space Marines, fallen AdMech, fallen Guard, fallen Navigators, fallen Ecclesiarchy, fallen Primarchs - no one is safe.

I mean, honestly, the dramatic irony of a Sister Hospitaller turning to Nurgle to 'cure' her patients, or a Famulous interpreter getting jiggy with the local Water Caste is just too good to ignore.

Londinium
20-12-2010, 18:51
People who say that it's stupid that sisters rarely ever fall are ignoring the whole aspect of religion. The SOB's are not Space Marines with tits, they are religious zealots raised their entire lives to worship and defend the God Emperor. Unlike Space Marines who's views on the Emperor's divinity vary vastly, all the SOB's believe unflinchingly in the divinity of the Emperor.

There have been numerous examples in history of people going to the stake or being executed because they refused to recant their religion beliefs. That's the hold religion has on some people, especially in uneducated religious environments such as the Imperium. Furthermore being raised your entire life to believe in those principles will be just as good as the mind scrubbing some Space Marines undergo.

That's not to say that Sisters can't fall, it should just be bloody hard and more often than not if they fall it will not be willing. For example the way Fulgrim fell because of his excessive pride and perfectionism. For that reason Slaneesh would be much more likely than say Khorne, Tzeentch or Nurgle.

AlexHolker
20-12-2010, 19:38
Catholic priests are chosen specifically for their True Faith in the Catholic Church. And we all know what some of them up to.
I seriously doubt that, considering that True Faith does not exist in reality. A Sister of Battle can literally perform supernatural feats thanks to her faith, like no-selling a Volcano Cannon to the face, just as a WoD character with True Faith can do things like repel vampires. There is no real world equivalent.


I mean, honestly, the dramatic irony of a Sister Hospitaller turning to Nurgle to 'cure' her patients, or a Famulous interpreter getting jiggy with the local Water Caste is just too good to ignore.
A Famulous interpreter getting too cozy with her Water Caste equivalent would be interesting, because it would involve a conflict between the belief that the alien needs to be destroyed by definition and an individual tau's failure to give her an excuse, while leaving the defining aspects of an Adepta Sororitas's character intact. A Sister Hospitaller turning to Nurgle would not, because as well as the inherent stupidity and evil of anyone turning to Nurgle, the conflict runs roughshod over the core of the Adepta Sororitas.

Of all the Chaos Gods, Nurgle is most opposed to the concept of an Adepta Sororitas. It relies on a despair that cannot exist, and a willingness to throw everyone else under the bus to save yourself that is at odds with the willingness to sacrifice for the Emperor and His Imperium. At least with Khorne and Slaanesh there are paths that a Sororitas could be drawn towards, if not for their strength of faith and will.

Eumerin
20-12-2010, 19:39
In any event, the whole idea is largely pointless. A fallen SoB loses her defining characteristic - i.e. her Faith. A fallen SoB is merely a regular old cultist.

colrouphobic
20-12-2010, 19:44
Taking in what is said, though I must say I heard this sort of reasoning before:

"There have been numerous examples in history of people going to the stake or being executed because they refused to recant their religion beliefs. That's the hold religion has on some people, especially in uneducated religious environments such as the Imperium. "

And it is flawed.

Everyone has their own views on things and Im not judging anyone, just want some information, but history is also full of people being born into a life of servitude and religious beliefs and then turning into the worst sinners of them all. Canterbury tales is just the beginning part of a search for those sort of people (yes I know CT is fictious writing, but it's a good start).


I am, however asking whether there are any precedents in 40k , whether it would be possible in 40k.

I seem to get both yes and no.

Yes people tend to goin the direction: Slaanesh usually. - whilst some think it's cliché.

No people tend to go with the: Undying worship of emperor protects-theory.

Having just read First Heretic, it feels a bit weird that faith and worship of the emperor, the thing thatgot the big E so mad he almost disowned one of his sons, would save you from falling, but I guess it has some merit.



So lets pose a hypothetical question:

If a convent of Sororitas would fall, what would be a good/believable reason for it? Pick your god of choice obviously...


(Think of ot like this: f BL would publish a book tomorrow with an SoB convent falling, for you to accept it as a decent story- which God and why would the fall to it?)

spetswalshe
20-12-2010, 19:49
There have been numerous examples in history of people going to the stake or being executed because they refused to recant their religion beliefs. That's the hold religion has on some people, especially in uneducated religious environments such as the Imperium. Furthermore being raised your entire life to believe in those principles will be just as good as the mind scrubbing some Space Marines undergo.

Yes, but Marines are utter fanatics barely capable of comprehending disloyalty, too, regardless of their opinion of the Emperor's divinity. As are Ecclesiarchy priests, and the Arbites, and the Inquisition. If a dedicated Ecclesiarchy priest can fall, so can a Sister. I agree that it should be very hard, but at the same time it only takes one 'prohpet' who knows how to play the game to convert a convent full of foaming religious fanatics.

Yes, they've been brought up in a Schola, as have Commissars. There are many examples of Commissars falling, despite their reputation of utter incorruptibility. If a group of people was immune because of their environment, the Imperium would simply replicate that environment everywhere. Having a group of normal people immune to Chaos denigrates the entire idea, and makes you wonder what the hell kind of losers Horus and co. really were.

Shamana
20-12-2010, 19:52
@ Eumerin: Eh, I don't think she'd be "just a cultist," not by a long shot. First, a battle-sister is an elite soldier - barring the Space Marines, she'd be among the finest the Imperium can send to battle. Second, she's a unique trophy to Chaos. The AdSor are a symbol of the purity and dedication of humanity's faith in the emperor. A fallen sister is therefore an example of the weakness of the faith that sustains the Imperium, a perversion of all it stands for. Simply by existing, she is a shining testament to the power of Chaos and a taunt towards the Imperium.

I can't imagine a fallen sister - not just fallen from grace, but one who has fully embraced Chaos - that would not be gifted with powers second only to the corrupted space marines. If she didn't become a mighty champion of Chaos, she'd end up as a spawn. A huddled, faceless cultists, merely one among the countless masses - that I'm pretty sure she won't end up as.

Eumerin
20-12-2010, 19:57
@ Eumerin: Eh, I don't think she'd be "just a cultist," not by a long shot. First, a battle-sister is an elite soldier - barring the Space Marines, she'd be among the finest the Imperium can send to battle. Second, she's a unique trophy to Chaos. The AdSor are a symbol of the purity and dedication of humanity's faith in the emperor. A fallen sister is therefore an example of the weakness of the faith that sustains the Imperium, a perversion of all it stands for. Simply by existing, she is a shining testament to the power of Chaos and a taunt towards the Imperium.

I can't imagine a fallen sister - not just fallen from grace, but one who has fully embraced Chaos - that would not be gifted with powers second only to the corrupted space marines. If she didn't become a mighty champion of Chaos, she'd end up as a spawn. A huddled, faceless cultists, merely one among the countless masses - that I'm pretty sure she won't end up as.

Whether the Chaos Gods thought she was a nifty trophy or not doesn't change the simple fact, though - she'd have lost the Faith that set her apart from other humans. She'd be just the same as any other skilled warrior that had fallen.

Lupe
20-12-2010, 19:59
As far as I'm concerned, complete and utter faith in the Emperor (or his divinity) does not equate to being incorruptible. Lorgar springs to mind.

However, you'd need a damned great deal of leverage to break one's faith, and a good, Tzeentchian plan would help a great deal. However, any Chaos power could, in theory claim a SoB.

Mr Zoat
20-12-2010, 20:01
Miriael Sabathiel is the only known Adepta Sororitas to fall to Chaos.

Daemonifuge is to SoB what anything by Goto is to Eldar, in that regard at least.

I always assumed that they weren't corrupted. The skin from their faces and their souls were used to make the screaming cage and their corpses were possessed.

AlexHolker
20-12-2010, 20:01
If a convent of Sororitas would fall, what would be a good/believable reason for it? Pick your god of choice obviously...

(Think of ot like this: f BL would publish a book tomorrow with an SoB convent falling, for you to accept it as a decent story- which God and why would the fall to it?)
If a bunch of SoB wannabes from the Red Redemption fell to Chaos (my preferred alternative to doing the same with actual SoB and in the process removing everything that makes them SoB), there are a few paths you could take:


Khorne worship. Given their hatred for the psyker and their role as soldiers, it would be possible for a group seeking to emulate the Sisters of Battle to neglect the reason why the Sisters of Battle fight, and fight for fighting's sake.
Slaanesh worship. The distinction between self-sacrifice (risking harm to help others) and self-harm (risking harm for its own sake) might be lost on some people, leading to an introverted cult like the one mentioned in the 3rd edition rulebook that believes pain is a goal in and of itself.
Tzeentch worship. If a bunch of wannabes wanted to prove their True Faith with Acts of Faith, it's possible that a Tzeentch-worshipping ringleader could pervert their efforts, tricking them into directing their energies to Tzeentch's gain. Tzeentch, of course, would then reward them for their efforts.



Second, she's a unique trophy to Chaos. The AdSor are a symbol of the purity and dedication of humanity's faith in the emperor. A fallen sister is therefore an example of the weakness of the faith that sustains the Imperium, a perversion of all it stands for. Simply by existing, she is a shining testament to the power of Chaos and a taunt towards the Imperium.
I'd say the same thing about the Chaos SoB supporters. It's the insult and not the quality of the idea that attracts people.

Artein
20-12-2010, 20:36
In any event, the whole idea is largely pointless. A fallen SoB loses her defining characteristic - i.e. her Faith. A fallen SoB is merely a regular old cultist.

With the best training possible for a human being, power armour and a bolter.

Eumerin
20-12-2010, 20:55
With the best training possible for a human being, power armour and a bolter.

Until something bigger comes along and steals them from her. Good gear is only yours so long as you can keep someone bigger than you from taking it.

And her training more or less puts her on par with a Veteran Guardsman at best (assuming, that is, that she's actually had plenty of combat experience, as opposed to being fresh out of school).

spetswalshe
20-12-2010, 20:59
I could go all day with reasons for Sisters falling, but I'll try and keep it simple.

Khorne; a Shrine world is abandoned to the enemy, the Governor-Archdeacon evacuated, and the people left to fend for themselves. Convent 81 rally the survivors in a final stand, and in their pious fury drive the invaders from the spaceport and commandeer the few remaining vessels. Catching up with the decadent rulers who abandoned them, they tear the Archdeacon apart in a violent rage and massacre the crew. Betrayed by the Imperium, and unable to attack the Fleet, they set a course for homeworld of the General who gave the order to abandon theirs. Along the way Canoness Electra is visited by strange visions of a man of brass who bathes in blood... She hopes she and the man will soon have something in common.

Slaanesh; Mortification of the flesh has long been a staple of the Black Mission and their Redemptionist allies in the colony. However, with the arrival of Preacher Josef, a famed Redemptionist firebrand who cleansed the nearby moon of Exus Prime, more and more Sisters are coming round to a different way of thinking. Josef claims that the faithful should enjoy punishment for their sins as they would any gift from the Emperor, though some humans naturally cannot enjoy pain (be it a weakness of the brain or spirit). He says that the stimulant-probes and autoinjectors that he can supply (for a reasonable price) can allow the less severe of the flock to enjoy their chastisement as much as the most argent flagellant. As his influence on the Mission grows, Josef begins to advise that those too weak to shrive themselves should be shriven - and a segment of the Mission and the local Redemptionists begin to secretly apply such punishments to the rest of the colony. The application of punishment - doing the Emperor's work - should be enjoyed as much as the punishment itself, Josef says, and slowly the victims become more innocent and the punishments more severe. Josef slowly reveals to his most dedicated sadomasochist disciples that it is Slaanesh who smiles upon such behaviour, and can bring them to even greater heights than they have reached already. Soon Josef's follower's are uncovered by the terrified colonists. With most of the Mission converted and any resistance quickly dealt with, the colony is in their hands. Josef, his work now done, ends the horrific victory celebrations by having Canonness Arba flay him alive, providing a matyr for the cause. The Black Mission leaves to spread his teachings far and wide.

Tzeentch; Abbess Silvana watched as the Inquisitor's Stormtroopers dragged Sister Mina away. Mina screamed that mutation did not equal corruption, that she had amputated the arm in time and that a person of faith was incorruptible. Silvana believed her. She had an eye just like Mina's, on her forearm, exactly where her devotional tattoo had been. The Abbess knew of at least twelve other Sisters whose tattoos had transformed since the Yellow Comet had passed overhead. The lives of those Sisters - good, loyal women marked by some tragic ailment of the body, not the spirit - meant more than the lives of some corrupt bureaucrats. She would not let her girls be taken. Sister Mina was right; this sector is ridden with corruption and change must be violent and remorseless; before she was taken, Mina told the Abbess that she had books in her room that could help them. When they came back, the Convent would be ready.

(so by 'keep it short' I obviously meant 'bang on forever'. Nurgle I've covered below.)


I seriously doubt that, considering that True Faith does not exist in reality. A Sister of Battle can literally perform supernatural feats thanks to her faith, like no-selling a Volcano Cannon to the face, just as a WoD character with True Faith can do things like repel vampires. There is no real world equivalent.

Okay, fair enough - except the vast majority of Sororitas are not capable of reality-bending Divine Magic. Even the existence of it seems to be just a game mechanic to me, since 40k does not use religious powers in the same way it does in Fantasy; everything is either psyker or daemon-based. The best explanation would be a kind of mass psychic energy that can be controlled by the leaders of an army and for some reason isn't present in, say, the fanatical armies of certain sections of Guard and traitor Guard.


A Sister Hospitaller turning to Nurgle would not, because as well as the inherent stupidity and evil of anyone turning to Nurgle, the conflict runs roughshod over the core of the Adepta Sororitas.

Of all the Chaos Gods, Nurgle is most opposed to the concept of an Adepta Sororitas. It relies on a despair that cannot exist, and a willingness to throw everyone else under the bus to save yourself that is at odds with the willingness to sacrifice for the Emperor and His Imperium. At least with Khorne and Slaanesh there are paths that a Sororitas could be drawn towards, if not for their strength of faith and will.

It really doesn't, in my opinion, any more than a person who turns to Tzeentch to solve his problems actually needs to fully embrace the idea that everything should change all the time. A Hospitaller running a Schola colony that has been declared Perditia on account of a horrific plague that will eventually kill everyone, might well turn in desperation to anyone who can help her stop the deaths of her charges. It doesn't require her to sacrifice someone else - if a sacrifice is needed, she would probably offer herself. She cries out for aid, Nurgle stops the deaths (if not the infection) and the Sister comes to terms with the fact that the Emperor was willing to let the children of Lazar-IV die agonising and pointless deaths, while Grandfather Nurgle was not.

Londinium
20-12-2010, 21:17
I didn't say that that the sisters couldn't fall, I said it should be damn hard for them to fall. Lorgar fell because he was publically humiliated and chastised by the Emperor, his greatest success obliterated and he was told that he alone out of the Primarchs had failed the Emperor. He also had a history of quasi-chaos worship, the 'Old Religion' on Colchis which he considered to be right before having visions of the Big E was Chaos worship. I highly doubt a Sorita is going to encounter that kind of mental anguish and humiliation. For a sister to fall would certainly a lot harder than an arbite or a Commissar; but like I said possible.

madd0ct0r
21-12-2010, 03:44
I once toyed with the idea of a Nurgle Sister army:

A Sister Hospitaller ship full of injured IG is inducted by an Inquistor, and removed to a desolate part of space.
The empire needs a new variant of the virus bomb, and their patients are the volunteers. The Sisters are caught between two duties, cannot deny the Inquisitor and carry out the experiments, their despair as deep as their faith.

it all follows naturally.

Lord-Caerolion
21-12-2010, 04:14
People who say that it's stupid that sisters rarely ever fall are ignoring the whole aspect of religion. The SOB's are not Space Marines with tits, they are religious zealots raised their entire lives to worship and defend the God Emperor. Unlike Space Marines who's views on the Emperor's divinity vary vastly, all the SOB's believe unflinchingly in the divinity of the Emperor.

There have been numerous examples in history of people going to the stake or being executed because they refused to recant their religion beliefs. That's the hold religion has on some people, especially in uneducated religious environments such as the Imperium. Furthermore being raised your entire life to believe in those principles will be just as good as the mind scrubbing some Space Marines undergo.

That's not to say that Sisters can't fall, it should just be bloody hard and more often than not if they fall it will not be willing. For example the way Fulgrim fell because of his excessive pride and perfectionism. For that reason Slaneesh would be much more likely than say Khorne, Tzeentch or Nurgle.

And you're forgetting the fact that the worship of the Emperor in the Imperium is so varied that what is orthodox in one sector can be the depths of heresy in another. Hell, the Steel Cobra chapter were declared Heretic and purged because they worshipped the Emperor through animal totems.
There are innumerable sub-cults of Emperor worship, so the thought that none could stray into nearing Chaos-worship is near impossible. Hell, the Red Redemption is Khorne-worship in everything but name (wear red, use chainswords and flamers, kill the mutant/psyker/xenos regardless of circumstance).

AlexHolker
21-12-2010, 05:15
And you're forgetting the fact that the worship of the Emperor in the Imperium is so varied that what is orthodox in one sector can be the depths of heresy in another. Hell, the Steel Cobra chapter were declared Heretic and purged because they worshipped the Emperor through animal totems.
What you're forgetting is that there's a lot more room for variation in an empire of trillions who all entered the Imperium in different ways at different times than there is in a single religiously orthodox organisation of less than 30,000 individuals. Hell, they don't even vary in combat doctrine, let alone religious belief.

shadowhawk2008
21-12-2010, 05:21
What you're forgetting is that there's a lot more room for variation in an empire of trillions who all entered the Imperium in different ways at different times than there is in a single religiously orthodox organisation of less than 30,000 individuals. Hell, they don't even vary in combat doctrine, let alone religious belief.

where do you get the less than 30,000 number from?

AlexHolker
21-12-2010, 06:00
where do you get the less than 30,000 number from?
Codex: Sisters of Battle states that each of the Militant Orders currently number between 3,000 and 4,000 Battle Sisters, and that the two Convents are down from their capacity of 15,000 Battle Sisters.

shadowhawk2008
21-12-2010, 06:59
Codex: Sisters of Battle states that each of the Militant Orders currently number between 3,000 and 4,000 Battle Sisters, and that the two Convents are down from their capacity of 15,000 Battle Sisters.

Could you provide a page reference? And does it also state that these numbers also include all the minor militant orders of the sororitas?

AndrewGPaul
21-12-2010, 07:38
I take it by "Codex: Sisters of Battle" you mean the 2nd edition book?


Don't you find the concept of naughty nuns tempting?

According to Cain's Last Stand, they're already allowed to drink, fornicate and gamble. I don't think the addition of tentacles and claws really adds anything. :)

FlashGordon
21-12-2010, 08:16
From Grey Knights by Ben Counter, page 239 in the Omnibus:

Katching in-universe source. As we all know the codexes are only propaganda sources

AlexHolker
21-12-2010, 08:28
Could you provide a page reference?
Page 35.


And does it also state that these numbers also include all the minor militant orders of the sororitas?
It does not state this, but it doesn't need to: all Sisters of Battle are members of one of the two Convents.


I take it by "Codex: Sisters of Battle" you mean the 2nd edition book?
The one and only.


According to Cain's Last Stand, they're already allowed to drink, fornicate and gamble.
One of the best things about the book, IMO. Given that organised religion pretty much had to start from scratch after the Emperor's ascension, their religious doctrine should reflect the times. I'd expect not getting pregnant to be more important than not having sex, for example.

Iuris
21-12-2010, 08:52
I tend to rewrite terms like "never" and "always" and "undefeated" and "greatest", that are so often used in 40k, more like "very rarely, which in a galaxy of a million worlds still means thousands" and "often enough that exceptions are a surprise" and "so far always got away somehow" and "top notch".

Makes fluff more down to earth and easier to swallow.

shadowhawk2008
21-12-2010, 10:42
Page 35.

Pg 35 in the book I have seems to be the Army List page for the Fast Attack choices. Can't seem to find any other SoB Codex.

Lord Damocles
21-12-2010, 10:45
'Two and a half thousand years later. two more Orders were
created by Deacis VI (the Orders of the Bloody Rose and
Sacred Rose) and the Convent buildings were extended to
accommodate almost 15,000 warriors each. In recent years .
the number of the Militant Orders' members has declined
slightly, and each Order now numbers between 3,000 and
4,000 Batlle Sisters. of which perhaps 500-750 will be trained
as Seraphim. These warriors are spread throughout the galaxy
in various battle zones and on extended tours of duty. The size
of an Order waxes and wanes irregularly, depending on the
quality of recruits available and battle losses. On occasion an
Order may number no more than a few hundred warriors, all
fighting the enemies of the Emperor while at other times it
may reach a peak of six or seven thousand warriors. with
much of the Order fighting in distant wars but still leaving a
reserve of several thousand Battle Sisters and Seraphim that
can be despatched if needed.'

Codex: Sisters of Battle (2nd ed.), pg.35

shadowhawk2008
21-12-2010, 10:56
interesting.

Eumerin
21-12-2010, 17:41
According to Cain's Last Stand, they're already allowed to drink, fornicate and gamble. I don't think the addition of tentacles and claws really adds anything. :)

Though there's also a footnote noting that most of them are too busy with their usual prayers, meditations, etc... to actually do any drinking, fornicating, or gambling.

spetswalshe
21-12-2010, 18:25
Codex: Sisters of Battle states that each of the Militant Orders currently number between 3,000 and 4,000 Battle Sisters, and that the two Convents are down from their capacity of 15,000 Battle Sisters.

GW's grasp of statistics triumphs again. It took 300,000 Coalition troops just to take Iraq, for crying out loud. Unless these worlds the SoB are taking/defending are the size of the average shopping centre, they might be a bit stretched. Presumably when the Sisters fight off an invasion or conduct one of their own their press releases conveniently forget to include the billions of Guardsmen and Navy craft backing them up.

I mean there are likely to be more than 30,000 Inquisitors out there. At least Space Marines have the excuse of being superhuman.

Koschai
21-12-2010, 19:27
GW's grasp of statistics triumphs again. It took 300,000 Coalition troops just to take Iraq, for crying out loud.

Ah but GW is a British company, it may have taken 300,000 coalition troops to take Iraq, but they were mainly Americans, a few hundred Brits would have done just as well in half the time :)

And yes I'm joking in case that's not clear

madprophet
21-12-2010, 20:15
Catholic priests are chosen specifically for their True Faith in the Catholic Church. And we all know what some of them up to.
This is an excellent analogy - most sisters are very faithful servants of the Emperor. Some may be a little less than zealous (the poker playing, philandering sister from Cain's Last Stand springs to mind and some can and do falter.

If Inquisitors, Space Marines, Imperial Preachers, Ecclesiarchs, Cardinals, and even the Emperor's own sons can fall to Chaos then surely a Sister of Battle can and if one sister can fall then so can a commandery.


I mean, honestly, the dramatic irony of a Sister Hospitaller turning to Nurgle to 'cure' her patients, or a Famulous interpreter getting jiggy with the local Water Caste is just too good to ignore.

Good examples. Falling to Chaos is one route, falling to Xenos is another bother offer interesting modeling options which, of course, is the point of these odd-ball armies.:D

AlexHolker
21-12-2010, 20:36
GW's grasp of statistics triumphs again. It took 300,000 Coalition troops just to take Iraq, for crying out loud. Unless these worlds the SoB are taking/defending are the size of the average shopping centre, they might be a bit stretched. Presumably when the Sisters fight off an invasion or conduct one of their own their press releases conveniently forget to include the billions of Guardsmen and Navy craft backing them up.
In your drive to insult GW, you forget one important fact: they did it on purpose. The whole point of the Decree Passive was to make the Ecclesiarchy dependant on external support, instead of remaining a threat to the other High Lords. Of course the Sisters of Battle need support from non-Ecclesiarchial branches: if nothing else, they need the Navy to give them a ride.

Lord-Caerolion
21-12-2010, 21:03
In your drive to insult GW, you forget one important fact: they did it on purpose. The whole point of the Decree Passive was to make the Ecclesiarchy dependant on external support, instead of remaining a threat to the other High Lords. Of course the Sisters of Battle need support from non-Ecclesiarchial branches: if nothing else, they need the Navy to give them a ride.

And the point of the Sisters is that they get around the Decree Passive, as they aren't men under arms, thus following the letter of the ruling, if not the spirit. The whole point is that the Ordo Hereticus ignores their blatant cheating of the law in return (presumably) for the Sororitas becoming their Chamber Militant, with the Nephilim Contract, or whatever it was called.

They're still not a threat to the sovereignty of the other High Lords domains, but they shouldn't be a non-player in the wider galaxy.

30,000 Sororitas is simply too small of a number to be considered an important faction in the Imperium. Spetswalshe said there are more than 30,000 Inquisitors out there, there are probably around 30,000 Shrine Worlds, who I'm guessing all have their own small Sororitas detachment. There needs to be more than 30,000 so that they can actually do what they're supposed to do.

After all, people complain that there's only 1 million Marines, saying it isn't enough for them to do enough. Sororitas have less numbers, worse training, are physically weaker, don't have the other bio-modifications, don't use power armour to the best of its capabilities, and have worse gear. We're expected to assume that "faith" covers those shortcomings?

KingDeath
21-12-2010, 21:06
In your drive to insult GW, you forget one important fact: they did it on purpose. The whole point of the Decree Passive was to make the Ecclesiarchy dependant on external support, instead of remaining a threat to the other High Lords. Of course the Sisters of Battle need support from non-Ecclesiarchial branches: if nothing else, they need the Navy to give them a ride.

You forgot that the entire purpose of the sisters is to circumvent the Decree Passive. See, even armed to the teeth, equiped with powerarmour and blessed by the emprah himself, 30000 sisters spread among an entire galaxy are simply not enough to do anything of worth. Space Marines have basicaly the same problem, but at least one can argue that their fleet + droppods/ t-hawks give them the ability to take out single, high value targets in lightning raids. The sisters on the other hand seem to be heavy frontline infantry, a task where such low numbers would be a severe problem.

Eumerin
21-12-2010, 21:46
This is an excellent analogy - most sisters are very faithful servants of the Emperor. Some may be a little less than zealous (the poker playing, philandering sister from Cain's Last Stand springs to mind)

Something to keep in mind is that the Sister in question was half-retired at the time - limited largely to training the next generation of Sisters being educated at the local Imperial School. Amberlee's comment in the footnotes implies that the Sister's current status is what allowed her to get involved in the extra-curricular activities that most Sisters didn't have the time to engage in.

Also, I don't think "philandering" is the right word to use in this case since that tends to imply a certain amount of promiscuity (whether or not it's actual inherent in the definition of the word). The sister in question appears to have been in a monogamous, discrete relationship - of which the protagonist (and likely the rest of the senior staff) was completely unaware of until he happened to learn of it by accident.

madprophet
21-12-2010, 21:58
Something to keep in mind is that the Sister in question was half-retired at the time - limited largely to training the next generation of Sisters being educated at the local Imperial School. Amberlee's comment in the footnotes implies that the Sister's current status is what allowed her to get involved in the extra-curricular activities that most Sisters didn't have the time to engage in.
You are correct but the fact that most younger sisters don't have time doesn't change the fact that while she was basically faithful, she wasn't a hardcore zealot.


Also, I don't think "philandering" is the right word to use in this case since that tends to imply a certain amount of promiscuity (whether or not it's actual inherent in the definition of the word). The sister in question appears to have been in a monogamous, discrete relationship - of which the protagonist (and likely the rest of the senior staff) was completely unaware of until he happened to learn of it by accident.
You may be right... or not... the fluff is actually inconsistent on this point. In the 2nd edition sisters codex it is stated that the sisters are celebate (which I fully realize isn't the same thing as chaste but the implication is that they are nuns with guns) but in Cain's Last Stand it is stated that chastity isn't required of the sisters making them more like the Maniads of classical Greece - and, IMNSHO, makes them a damn sight more interesting than Renegade Nuns on Wheels (first one to get the inference gets a cookie).

But back to the original point, there is no real reason why a Sister or an entire commandery couldn't fall either to Chaos heresy or Xenos seduction.

Eumerin
21-12-2010, 22:02
You may be right... or not... the fluff is actually inconsistent on this point. In the 2nd edition sisters codex it is stated that the sisters are celebate (which I fully realize isn't the same thing as chaste but the implication is that they are nuns with guns) but in Cain's Last Stand it is stated that chastity isn't required of the sisters making them more like the Maniads of classical Greece - and, IMNSHO, makes them a damn sight more interesting than Renegade Nuns on Wheels (first one to get the inference gets a cookie).

Well, my reason for posting that was to point out that "philanderer" probably wasn't the right word to use.

And I always preferred the follow-up title - 'Batwing Bimbos from Hell'.

;)

Col. Tartleton
21-12-2010, 22:12
That's the thing people forget:

The Imperial Cult IS NOT Christianity in Space. It shares some stylistic similarities. Those attributes are generally older than Christianity.

There should be entire orders of Sisters (not of battle) who offer soldiers the Emperor's "Last Rites" before battle. If a million Guardsmen are going into combat you're going to have several hundred thousand girls following them around at least. It's not out of the question they'd be organized as a religious order. The Imperium is all about organization. You can't have half a million teenage girls running around unsupervised...

AlexHolker
21-12-2010, 23:11
There should be entire orders of Sisters (not of battle) who offer soldiers the Emperor's "Last Rites" before battle. If a million Guardsmen are going into combat you're going to have several hundred thousand girls following them around at least.
Ick. When I said I was glad about getting away from the Christianity in Space aspect it was because it made the Imperium somewhat enlightened, in a "Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green" kind of way. Replace it with widespread use of comfort women, and you're back to misogynism.

Lord-Caerolion
21-12-2010, 23:31
And yet we have the Ordo Hospitaller, or whatever it's called, an entire branch of the Sororitas who are field-medics and such.

HK-47
21-12-2010, 23:34
And yet we have the Ordo Hospitaller, or whatever it's called, an entire branch of the Sororitas who are field-medics and such.

Aren't they based on the real life Knights Hospitaller?

Eumerin
22-12-2010, 00:01
Aren't they based on the real life Knights Hospitaller?

Very loosely - most likely strictly on the name. To the best of my knowledge, the old knightly order got it's name from the hospitality (i.e. a place to sleep) it offered, and not due to any particular medical skill (which was pretty poor back then in any event).

Having said that, a religious order offering medical services *does* make sense. The Emperor is supposed to provide comfort to those who follow him, and offering medical care is one of the best ways to do that.

Col. Tartleton
22-12-2010, 00:15
And yet we have the Ordo Hospitaller, or whatever it's called, an entire branch of the Sororitas who are field-medics and such.

And as we all know "Nurse" is codeword for a different job on the salary. :D They're there for their bedside manner and their in bed manners.

The Imperium isn't misogynistic. Most units are single gender for practical reasons. Men and women serve equally although men serve more. But there are certain requirements which every military in history that isn't gender integrated has had. In some cases you might have male and female regiments paired up when not in the field for recreational purposes. In integrated units there are men and women so they're already situated. But there are more men raised than women so they have to make up for that by taking girls with them. Grimdark aside there are certain things that are required to keep a bunch of young men from killing each other...

In every war novel I've read outside of 40k the main plot element other than people dying was sex. Comes with the uniform. If it's a regular war against regular rebels over back tithes there will probably be plenty of girls to be gotten as you occupy city after city. You're fighting Orks and there won't be any girls available most of the time. You're fighting Chaos or 'stealers and you're told they've all got the plague and should be shot on sight. Anyone who sleeps with a genestealer-girl is going go get the worst STD you've ever seen.

Eumerin
22-12-2010, 00:24
And as we all know "Nurse" is codeword for a different job on the salary. :D

Except that they're not nurses - they're doctors.

Col. Tartleton
22-12-2010, 00:41
Except that they're not nurses - they're doctors.

http://creepypasta.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/13.jpg

So is he...

madprophet
22-12-2010, 05:34
Well, my reason for posting that was to point out that "philanderer" probably wasn't the right word to use.

And I always preferred the follow-up title - 'Batwing Bimbos from Hell'.

;)

You win a cookie:p


That's the thing people forget:

The Imperial Cult IS NOT Christianity in Space. It shares some stylistic similarities. Those attributes are generally older than Christianity.

True, but like Christianity itself, the Imperial Cult resembles many solar messianic cults from history. There is a striking resemblance to the cult of Mithras/Sol Invictus which was itself the most direct precursor to what we know today as Christianity. The Emperor is the sacrificed savior who was appointed by the gods (or G-d) who died for our sins and was resurrected from the dead and given all authority over heaven and earth who will draw his faithful unto himself if they believe in the salvation offered by his sacrifice and who will return with his saints at the end of days for the final showdown with the forces of evil. This is the motif in over 67 pre-Christian religions and when Origen was disputing with the heathen philosophers, the philosophers pointed this out. Origen's reply was that in the pre-Christian cults, we see the pre-configuration, in Christianity we see its fulfillment since now it actually has occurred.

So while the Imperial Cult isn't Christianity (since it is not based on the worship and deification of Jesus Christ as part and parcel of the godhead) it certainly shares much of its basic theme and theological structure with Christianity.


There should be entire orders of Sisters (not of battle) who offer soldiers the Emperor's "Last Rites" before battle. If a million Guardsmen are going into combat you're going to have several hundred thousand girls following them around at least. It's not out of the question they'd be organized as a religious order. The Imperium is all about organization. You can't have half a million teenage girls running around unsupervised...
Well, the term "Last Rites" need not mean "comfort women" - when Japanese troops left for war in WW2 they were given last rites, meaning they literally attended their own funerals so that if they fell in battle their souls were already assured a place in paradise.

However, the concept of Temple Prostitution is not terribly far fetched since many pagan religions did include and accept sacred prostitution - particularly among agricultural, grain, fertility, sex and love goddess cults. One could imagine an order of Sororitas dedicated to the Emperor as fertility god or perhaps some female saint (or a female counterpart to the Emperor among the "gods" by whose will he is the master of mankind) who function as temple prostitutes. The practice was so widespread that the Bible specifically forbids it and forbids even using money earned from prostitution being used for charitable purposes.

The orders militant may even have factions (or perhaps there are other female dominated Imperial Cults Militant) who function as the Maniads did. The Maniads were an all-female cult dedicated to Bacchus (aka Dionysus) the god of wine. They would crown a man their king and for a year he was kept in the lap of luxury, he was catered to sexually, his every desire and whim granted without question - the catch was after the year at the Bacchanal he would be torn limb from limb by the Maniads in an ecstatic, homicidal orgy and then a new king would be crowned. The Maniads could also serve as a model for a Slanneshi cult and/or fallen sisters.

The Sisters could also be modeled on the classical Amazons - depending on the source you prefer the Amazons were a matriarch society in which men filled the roles women filled in the more patriarchal Mediterranean cultures or a society in which there were no men and Amazon women would go abroad to find men to mate with - if the result was a daughter she'd go home with mommy to become an Amazon warrior and if the result was a son he'd stay in Greece with daddy and the Amazon would try again. The Escher gang in Necromunda is very much like the Amazons of classical myth.

That the Sisters are a religious order is pretty well established. The Sisters Hospitaler are modeled on the medieval nursing orders of nuns while the Sisters Familous are modeled on Frank Herbert's Bene Gesserit. The Missionaria Galaxia is also modeled on one of the orders within the Bene Gesserit but also has some similarities to the virgin female evangelists popular in 1st and 2nd century Christian accounts of the life of Paul of Tarsus. The Sisters Familous might offer the nobility exceptional concubines and/or wives all the while using subtle manipulation of the noble bloodlines to gain political, genetic, social or even religious advantage (it may even be connected to the idea of resurrecting the Emperor)

Just some food for thought :D

MagosHereticus
22-12-2010, 06:16
And yet we have the Ordo Hospitaller, or whatever it's called, an entire branch of the Sororitas who are field-medics and such.

they are not really medics, they train guardsmen medics and offer support/expertise to behind the lines medical facilities but operate more like doctors without borders than a military medical cadre, they are actually a pretty decent upstanding organisation, which is why so little is written about them i suppose in the grimdark of the far future

Lothlanathorian
22-12-2010, 07:27
Okay, fair enough - except the vast majority of Sororitas are not capable of reality-bending Divine Magic. Even the existence of it seems to be just a game mechanic to me, since 40k does not use religious powers in the same way it does in Fantasy; everything is either psyker or daemon-based. The best explanation would be a kind of mass psychic energy that can be controlled by the leaders of an army and for some reason isn't present in, say, the fanatical armies of certain sections of Guard and traitor Guard.

You don't have to be a psyker to turn to Tzeentch. Sorcery is still magic, even in 40K. It is a way to use the Warp without being a psyker. Think of psykers like Sorcerers in D&D 3.5 and those who use sorcerery in 40K as Wizards. One is born with the gift, the other uses arcane and oft forbidden words and gestures to channel it.


GW's grasp of statistics triumphs again. It took 300,000 Coalition troops just to take Iraq, for crying out loud. Unless these worlds the SoB are taking/defending are the size of the average shopping centre, they might be a bit stretched. Presumably when the Sisters fight off an invasion or conduct one of their own their press releases conveniently forget to include the billions of Guardsmen and Navy craft backing them up.

I mean there are likely to be more than 30,000 Inquisitors out there. At least Space Marines have the excuse of being superhuman.


Also, we aren't willing to engage in 'total war' style warfare, the Imperium is. We try not to kill civilians, minimize collateral damage, etc. The Imperium comes at you like a hammer. If civilians get in the way, well, the damned fools deserved it for allowing whatever rebellion/heresy/other form of recidivist activity to take place. We try to kill the bad guys, the Imperium leaves that kind of sorting to the Emperor.

thewordofblake
22-12-2010, 08:57
I'm not sure if someones said it already, as I'm too outta it to read 4 pages right now, but iirc sons of malal went renegade after slaughtering renegade SoB. Or am I remembering that one incorrectly?

Lord Damocles
22-12-2010, 08:59
I'm not sure if someones said it already, as I'm too outta it to read 4 pages right now, but iirc sons of malal went renegade after slaughtering renegade SoB. Or am I remembering that one incorrectly?
Incorrect.

There is no mention of the Sororitas in question being renegade ('Rogue Sons' in White Dwarf 303, pg.72).

thewordofblake
22-12-2010, 09:02
The Emperor is the sacrificed savior who was appointed by the gods (or G-d) who died for our sins and was resurrected from the dead and given all authority over heaven and earth who will draw his faithful unto himself if they believe in the salvation offered by his sacrifice and who will return with his saints at the end of days for the final showdown with the forces of evil.
godhead

love goddess cults. One could imagine an order of Sororitas dedicated to the Emperor as fertility god or perhaps some female saint (or a female counterpart to the Emperor among the "gods" by whose will he is the master of mankind) who function as temple prostitutes.
the god of wine.
Just some food for thought :D

You type as though you are or had a jewish upbringing.

Just some food for thought :D

thewordofblake
22-12-2010, 09:06
Incorrect.

There is no mention of the Sororitas in question being renegade ('Rogue Sons' in White Dwarf 303, pg.72).

"Although flesh-eating rituals are not uncommon among the Space Marines, Pietas was obviously unacquainted with the barbarous customs of Space Marines and mobilized a strike force of Adepta Sororitas Celestians to deal with the "heretics". The Sisters made planetfall right in the midst of the Company at the height of their celebrations. Kathal and his troops responded to the interference of their sacred Chapter rites by savagely attacking the strike force, defeating the Celestians. Kathal dragged the meddling Inquisitor before the chapter altar where she was ritually sacrificed."

I think that's what I was thinking of. Found it on lexi, which says it's from Index Astartes 4

Shamana
22-12-2010, 09:12
30,000 Sororitas is simply too small of a number to be considered an important faction in the Imperium. Spetswalshe said there are more than 30,000 Inquisitors out there, there are probably around 30,000 Shrine Worlds, who I'm guessing all have their own small Sororitas detachment. There needs to be more than 30,000 so that they can actually do what they're supposed to do.

I rather doubt this number is relevant; I seem to recall DH implying there's a sizable number of Sororitals in a single, and somewhat irrelevant, sector, and fluff like "a lot of pilgrims owe their lives to Sororitas forces guarding the pilgrim routes" would imply that there are enough SoBs to dedicate to such secondary tasks.

As I interpret it (just my opinion), the convent on Ophelia can house that many sisters (probably more, if they need to be cramped), but the actual number of armed sororitas is much higher. They just don't need to spend all their time cramped up in the base, and instead have separate missions and campaigns all over the place a la the Black Templars. The two major convents are just their largest "keeps."

BTW, I thought the Knights Hospitaller have their name from their oath to protect pilgrims, especially those going to the St. John hospital in Jerusalem. That is also why they are known as the St. John order. I saw a lot of ambulances with their crest in Germany - iirc some of their remains are still involved with hospitals and charity. The connection would be easy enough to make.

@ MagosHereticos - I would again advise you to check some Dark Heresy stuff, especially when "Blood of Martyrs" comes out... It already covered playing sisters of the Famulous (iirc) and Hospitaller order in the Inquisitor's handbook, and I'd expect BoM to cover them in more details.Speaking of which, here's (http://www.gametrademagazine.com/downloads/SisterHospitaller.pdf) something with a bit of fluff about the Orders Hospitaller from the upcoming book.

"Selfish thoughts of personal morality," indeed. Actually, that kinda conflicts with the part about them being "unsuitable" to work in interrogation cells, due to "accidental" slip-ups - I suppose it's just a matter of watching over the sister's shoulder to limit the chance of her overzealous taking over.

AlexHolker
22-12-2010, 15:21
The orders militant may even have factions (or perhaps there are other female dominated Imperial Cults Militant) who function as the Maniads did. The Maniads were an all-female cult dedicated to Bacchus (aka Dionysus) the god of wine. They would crown a man their king and for a year he was kept in the lap of luxury, he was catered to sexually, his every desire and whim granted without question - the catch was after the year at the Bacchanal he would be torn limb from limb by the Maniads in an ecstatic, homicidal orgy and then a new king would be crowned. The Maniads could also serve as a model for a Slanneshi cult and/or fallen sisters.
You know, I love this idea, just not for the Adepta Sororitas. A borderline heretical cult that reenacts the Sisters' origins in the Age of Apostasy, selecting a man to play the role of Vandire and then murdering him at the end, is a brilliant concept. Just don't assume it would be seen as anything but mockery by an actual Sister.

spetswalshe
22-12-2010, 15:27
Also, we aren't willing to engage in 'total war' style warfare, the Imperium is. We try not to kill civilians, minimize collateral damage, etc. The Imperium comes at you like a hammer. If civilians get in the way, well, the damned fools deserved it for allowing whatever rebellion/heresy/other form of recidivist activity to take place. We try to kill the bad guys, the Imperium leaves that kind of sorting to the Emperor.

Well, yes. I imagine taking an area the size of Iraq would require less Guardsmen, less because they're not so bothered by civilian casualties (it'd depend on the situation; if they're heathens suspected of aiding the rebellion most would consider them fair game, but if the world is intended to be returned to the Imperial fold a smart general would pin any 'collateral' on the rebels he's fighting) but more because their own casualties mean little to them. If half the 30,000 Coalition troops had died the whole thing would be considered a horrendous loss, regardless of the result; if half a Guard army dies then you can still call it a victory. Old-style warfare, where troops are just numbers and not people with families back home.

madprophet
23-12-2010, 00:32
You type as though you are or had a Jewish upbringing.

Just some food for thought :D

You say that like it's a bad thing :cool:

Actually, my understanding of Christianity comes from studying it at the University level (I have a baccalaureate in Comparative Religion and a master's degree in Logic and Systematic Analysis)

But the sacrificed savior who redeemed us through his death religion is a very common religious motif. Origen's defense of Christianity as the fulfillment of pre-configuration amongst the pagan religions is well documented.


You know, I love this idea, just not for the Adepta Sororitas. A borderline heretical cult that reenacts the Sisters' origins in the Age of Apostasy, selecting a man to play the role of Vandire and then murdering him at the end, is a brilliant concept. Just don't assume it would be seen as anything but mockery by an actual Sister.
You know I completely missed the Vandire aspect of the King of the Imperial Maniads! Good catch!

I am not saying the Sororitas are like this - the fluff written about them is very much in the Nuns with Guns vein - but I could see another all female Imperial cult-militant that operates just like you said, maybe the last vestiges of the Brides of the Emperor cult?

thewordofblake
23-12-2010, 02:45
You say that like it's a bad thing :cool:

Actually, my understanding of Christianity comes from studying it at the University level (I have a baccalaureate in Comparative Religion and a master's degree in Logic and Systematic Analysis)

But the sacrificed savior who redeemed us through his death religion is a very common religious motif. Origen's defense of Christianity as the fulfillment of pre-configuration amongst the pagan religions is well documented.


I've just never met anyone who wasn't of Jewish upbringing to omit the o when referencing the god of the Hebrews. Not a bad thing, just a thing :p

madd0ct0r
23-12-2010, 04:55
regarding the number of SoB in the universe - I'm pretty sure the latest codex has expanded the number of orders substantially.

30000 is just piffingly small, I'd expect near that number on a single major shrine world

Reganator5000
23-12-2010, 06:10
to defeat a rebelious area quickly 'd imagine it would be a lot simpler to just alow the navy to do it before you send in the ground troops. if continent X is overun by orks, lob a few shells from orbit and then send in the guard to litterally mop up the green stains that were left behind.
the sisters, using similar tactics, could probably cope with smaller numbers, especially as they are more likely to pronounce all citizens heretics for complying with the rebellious leader, and simply memo the administratum for a new planetary population afterwards (by imperial standards planets are populated quickly, you could probably do it in less time than it took them to actually notice the memo).

Eumerin
23-12-2010, 07:02
to defeat a rebelious area quickly 'd imagine it would be a lot simpler to just alow the navy to do it before you send in the ground troops. if continent X is overun by orks, lob a few shells from orbit and then send in the guard to litterally mop up the green stains that were left behind.
the sisters, using similar tactics, could probably cope with smaller numbers, especially as they are more likely to pronounce all citizens heretics for complying with the rebellious leader, and simply memo the administratum for a new planetary population afterwards (by imperial standards planets are populated quickly, you could probably do it in less time than it took them to actually notice the memo).

Problem is, the real estate is generally worth something. And mass orbital bombardment has a habit of wrecking that value. So you've got to send in the PBI (Poor Bloody Infantry, for those not familiar with the acronym).

Plus, no matter how thorough your bombardments, defenders have a habit of surviving them - as the US Navy and Marines found out in the Pacific during World War 2...

madprophet
23-12-2010, 13:00
Problem is, the real estate is generally worth something. And mass orbital bombardment has a habit of wrecking that value. So you've got to send in the PBI (Poor Bloody Infantry, for those not familiar with the acronym).

Plus, no matter how thorough your bombardments, defenders have a habit of surviving them - as the US Navy and Marines found out in the Pacific during World War 2...

True but heavy artillery and aerial bombardment (or orbital bombardment) softens up the enemy nicely. Breaking up transport nets, disrupting command and control, breaking up broadcast nets all make it harder for the enemy to resist when you do send in the Gropos.


I've just never met anyone who wasn't of Jewish upbringing to omit the o when referencing the god of the Hebrews. Not a bad thing, just a thing :p

Ah, I see. Old habits die hard. It's that whole "thou shalt not take My name in vain" thing. Of course the name of the Creator in the Jewish canon isn't G-O-D that's just a title and there is no real prohibition on writing it out but it is the usage I was taught :D

And yes, I am Jewish ;)

My point isn't to debate religion with anyone (silly thing to do under the best of circumstances, IMNSHO) but rather to point out the theological similarities between the Imperial Cult and Christianity, especially in its Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox expressions.

The good Colonel is right when he says the Imperial Cult isn't Christian if for no other reason than it doesn't believe Jesus of Nazareth was the son of G-d, the messiah of Israel and the crucified and risen savior of mankind. (Of course, in the Rogue Trader era fluff the Emperor was Jesus, but that's sort of beside the point) but in terms of its theological structure and operative motif, the Imperial Cult is very similar to medieval Christianity.

Eumerin
23-12-2010, 17:12
The single biggest problem with GW's numbers game is that in a big war a regiment is really an inconsequential combat force. There's a reason why the Corps system was developed during the Napoleonic era. And even later on, Armies and Army Groups were introduced to make it easier to handle the ever increasing numbers of corps. But the Imperial Guard is saddled with a system that assumes a regiment actually has a reasonable amount of combat power, when instead GW should have moved one or two organizational levels up and used Divisions or Corps instead.

madprophet
23-12-2010, 21:05
The single biggest problem with GW's numbers game is that in a big war a regiment is really an inconsequential combat force. There's a reason why the Corps system was developed during the Napoleonic era. And even later on, Armies and Army Groups were introduced to make it easier to handle the ever increasing numbers of corps. But the Imperial Guard is saddled with a system that assumes a regiment actually has a reasonable amount of combat power, when instead GW should have moved one or two organizational levels up and used Divisions or Corps instead.

I am not sure, but I believe I read some fluff for the Space Marine game (now known as Epic 40k) that Regiments are the largest permanent unit within the Imperial Army/Guard.

Larger units like brigades, divisions, armies and army groups are built out of regiments but are themselves ad hoc organizations created and disbanded at need. Given the fact that some wars last decades, these organizations can last for years and years but they are still temporary in nature with commanders being assigned as needed. Crusades are are akin to Theatre commands

Eumerin
23-12-2010, 21:46
I am not sure, but I believe I read some fluff for the Space Marine game (now known as Epic 40k) that Regiments are the largest permanent unit within the Imperial Army/Guard.

Larger units like brigades, divisions, armies and army groups are built out of regiments but are themselves ad hoc organizations created and disbanded at need. Given the fact that some wars last decades, these organizations can last for years and years but they are still temporary in nature with commanders being assigned as needed. Crusades are are akin to Theatre commands

Which gets back to the same problem - regiments are too small.

Units develop more cohesiveness and perform better as they work repeatedly with the same units. The "regiments as the largest permanent formation" thing effectively kills that, as it keeps units from spending the requisite time with each other needed to build up a a good working relationship with their fellow regiments.


Plus, as a meta thing, it encourages GW to think small. 1000 marines or 30,000 Sisters sounds like a lot if you're comparing them with mere regiments of Guard. Compare them with divisions, and the comparisons start to look a little bad. Start talking about the 50th Cadian Corp of the Imperial Guard (at least 9 regiments), and suddenly you start thinking, "Now THAT'S a lot of men!"

And then you start combining corps into armies and army groups...

madprophet
23-12-2010, 23:57
Which gets back to the same problem - regiments are too small.

I don't really disagree with you. In the pre-4th edition IG Codex, a regiment was 6 companies plus a command platoon plus some supporting squads. That's a reinforced battalion - not a regiment.

In the 4th edition codex, regiments got bigger - more of a throwback to the Epic/Space Marine fluff where a regiment was 3+ battalions of 3+ companies with supporting arms and regimental and battalion level support units.

The 8th Cadian was 24 companies (I think, don't have the codex in front of me) which would have 6-8 battalions plus supporting arms - a much larger formation.


Units develop more cohesiveness and perform better as they work repeatedly with the same units. The "regiments as the largest permanent formation" thing effectively kills that, as it keeps units from spending the requisite time with each other needed to build up a a good working relationship with their fellow regiments.
You're reading right out of a Command School text here. I am not saying you are wrong but the Imperium isn't big on efficiency and the fluff answer is that since ad hoc formations could exist for decades, the interworking of the component regiments does have time to develop - unless you happen to have a higher level commander who was "commissioned by mom".





Plus, as a meta thing, it encourages GW to think small. 1000 marines or 30,000 Sisters sounds like a lot if you're comparing them with mere regiments of Guard. Compare them with divisions, and the comparisons start to look a little bad. Start talking about the 50th Cadian Corp of the Imperial Guard (at least 9 regiments), and suddenly you start thinking, "Now THAT'S a lot of men!"

And then you start combining corps into armies and army groups...
Yes, I agree with you but they seem to be retconning it a little with the Guard which is now being presented as the primary ground military service of the Imperium with the Marines being used as leavening at critical points in high value campaigns.

colrouphobic
24-12-2010, 04:27
Much as I find the "size of IG" discussion interesting, I do think it's digressed a little off topic.

Thank you all for the info and input. I find it interesting to find out. In the end it seems more of a matter of "No I don't think so/Yes I think so" because of lack of officcial fluff around it. So it comes down to reasoning and there people have different views upon it.


Very grateful for the help!

MagosHereticus
25-12-2010, 14:44
regarding the number of SoB in the universe - I'm pretty sure the latest codex has expanded the number of orders substantially.

30000 is just piffingly small, I'd expect near that number on a single major shrine world

something to remember though, Sororitas are not the bulk of the ecclesiarchies military might, the frateris militia for fill that role, and a shrine world would provide billions of the nutters, each cathedral and shrine having a weapons cache and most of the local flock having prearranged instructions on what to do when called to arms (shame they get little representation on the table top, except as a white dwarf after thought)

madd0ct0r
26-12-2010, 02:02
I'm not sure the disorganized rabble of zealots and redemptionists should really be classed as 'military might'.

cannon fodder, capable of tying up opposition troops and clearing minefields, but capable of being orchestrated as organized military over a sustained campaign?

that's what you need the sisters for.

MagosHereticus
26-12-2010, 03:29
I'm not sure the disorganized rabble of zealots and redemptionists should really be classed as 'military might'.

cannon fodder, capable of tying up opposition troops and clearing minefields, but capable of being orchestrated as organized military over a sustained campaign?

that's what you need the sisters for.

quantity has a quality all of it's own, and they are the perfect answer to armies of chaos cultists and mutants, as they will throw themselves mercilessly at enemy lines until they make a breakthrough (with i'm sure quality troops like the SOB are held in reserve specifically for such opportunities)

on the defensive they swarm around ecclesiarchy property, making them a difficult prospects to take in a direct assault

sure they are rubbish troops, but sheer numbers that can be raised make up for that

madprophet
27-12-2010, 00:35
quantity has a quality all of it's own

Comrade Stalin approves!



they are the perfect answer to armies of chaos cultists and mutants, as they will throw themselves mercilessly at enemy lines until they make a breakthrough (with i'm sure quality troops like the SOB are held in reserve specifically for such opportunities)
Zealots are to PDF as Sisters are to Space Marines


on the defensive they swarm around ecclesiarchy property, making them a difficult prospects to take in a direct assault
Zealots are used to tie up rebel rabble until Imperial Guard, Sororitas or Astartes forces can be brought to bear. Sororitas provide security to ecclesiarchal property and dignitaries with Zealots being more of a hue and cry. While the ecclesiarchy itself cannot maintain "men under arms", I wonder if there can't be "sanctioned" militias that are more or less equivalent to the PDF in quality that exist independent of the ecclesiarchy but takes its defense as part of its mission - sort of a 40k version of the B.P.O.E or Knights of Columbus.


sure they are rubbish troops, but sheer numbers that can be raised make up for that
True, sufficient numbers of scratch troops can be a real pain to deal with.

Shamana
27-12-2010, 08:08
Well, there probably are quite a few "militias" that could nearly match a PDF regiment. It's been a long time since the Decree Passive, and the Ecclesiarchy is a significant power. It might not be nearly as official as the PDF, but chances are that there are enough threats to Ecclesiarchal missions for the Imperium to overlook a few "rabblerousers", and enough former soldiers or war-minded civilians to make raising and training such a force feasible. It doesn't even have to be fully affiliated with the Ecclesiarchy - probably a lot of worlds have traditions of training in one's time in case the Enemy (tm) comes, and the Imperial cult can simply call on one of them. Few people would refuse the request of a cardinal that extols them to do battle with heretics, aliens, or other enemies of the Imperium, and the IC certainly has the resources to make sure that their pseudo-crusade gets where it needs to be and has what it needs to have.

thewordofblake
20-02-2011, 22:18
Yeah, ultimately to your question...I do not believe there is any official fluff where a large group of Sisters fell into Chaos Worship.

Oh, thought ya might enjoy this fan work though, brought to you by the unnatural fear of clowns. :)

http://throneofskulls.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1878&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=10#p23322

Tastyfish
20-02-2011, 23:18
I'm not sure the disorganized rabble of zealots and redemptionists should really be classed as 'military might'.

cannon fodder, capable of tying up opposition troops and clearing minefields, but capable of being orchestrated as organized military over a sustained campaign?

that's what you need the sisters for.

The Ecclesiarchy may not officially have a large force of troops under it's command, but then it also owns very significant planets. Cardinal/Shrine worlds seem to play as important a part as hive worlds in the Imperial economy, without counting the fact that they are going to lean towards being the most natural trading worlds (if traders and merchants are going to stop by anyway, they might as well meet up and make some cash doing so - something that will further enchance the importance of the Ecclesiarchy without them having to lift a finger or reconvene a conclave).

We know they can call Crusades (the Tau book points to the fact that they are actually required to do so, otherwise it's just a significant engagement), whilst they themselves do not hold sway over armies and fleets, they have the influence to do so anyway. Sisters are really just their religious Commissars/Storm troopers rather than their Guard - they've got Guard and PDF forces for that, bolstered by the Frateris Militia. Hardly in a position to butt heads with the Departmento Munitorum, but without their opposition, far from toothless.

Also were there originally two convents and now there are more? Is the reduction in numbers due to schisms, new foundings etc

AlphariusOmegon20
21-02-2011, 01:18
Someone mentioned sisters having true Faith. Well, even with "unshakable true Faith", one would experience moments of doubt in their faith for a multitude of various reasons.

It is these moments of doubt that Chaos would use to plant the seeds of even more doubt in one's Faith, leading eventually to corruption of the spirit and soul. Remember that Sisters are not "super human", they are quite human. And as human, they do have failings, much like the rest of us. That is simply human nature.

It's quite simple, if 9 entire Legions of "super human" space marines can fall to Chaos, it is highly possible that an entire Order of Sisters could fall also.

AlexHolker
21-02-2011, 02:45
Someone mentioned sisters having true Faith. Well, even with "unshakable true Faith", one would experience moments of doubt in their faith for a multitude of various reasons.
No, they wouldn't. No more than you would experience moments of doubting gravity that would lead you to start praying to Vitruvius to pin you to the ground so you don't float away.


Remember that Sisters are not "super human", they are quite human. And as human, they do have failings, much like the rest of us. That is simply human nature.

It's quite simple, if 9 entire Legions of "super human" space marines can fall to Chaos, it is highly possible that an entire Order of Sisters could fall also.
Oh please. Just because the Space Marines aren't superior at everything is no reason to go tearing down everyone else's armies.

Raellos
21-02-2011, 03:01
He's not demeaning anybody else's army (you collect SoB, perhaps?). I feel that having an essentially human, completely incorruptible army lessens the threat of chaos. It's a subtle thing, Inquisitors can turn to chaos completely without realising it. Having a few examples of fallen sisters makes the loyalty of the rest seem a greater feat.

AlexHolker
21-02-2011, 05:19
He's not demeaning anybody else's army (you collect SoB, perhaps?). I feel that having an essentially human, completely incorruptible army lessens the threat of chaos.
Would you be willing to accept a single person on Earth not being tempted by Chaos? Because that's about the scale we're talking about. It's an organisation of less than 50,000 people out of a galaxy-spanning empire, chosen specifically for a trait that makes them less susceptible to Chaos. Better that than the Space Marines, who recruit thugs for their compatibility with a physical process and brainwash them into soldiers.


Having a few examples of fallen sisters makes the loyalty of the rest seem a greater feat.
I do not mind having a few examples of fallen sisters. I do mind that every two bit hack seems to take that as justification to add hundreds.

AlphariusOmegon20
21-02-2011, 14:28
No, they wouldn't. No more than you would experience moments of doubting gravity that would lead you to start praying to Vitruvius to pin you to the ground so you don't float away.


Oh please. Just because the Space Marines aren't superior at everything is no reason to go tearing down everyone else's armies.

If you ask any Catholic Priest or Protestant minster, the pinnacles of faith in real life, if they experience doubts in their faith sometimes, most would answer yes, they do, as they are human and doubt is a human failing. Why is it so hard to believe that Sisters, as humans, are no better than us when it comes to failings of the flesh and mind? It's a philosophical argument on the premise of "unshakable" Faith, not a slam against anyone's army. There is no such thing as "unshakable" Faith in anything. One's Faith waivers on what's going on in our lives, some days it's easier to believe in something, some days it's not. That applies whether it is a man who died on a cross to cleanse the sins of mankind or a man who "entombed" on a Golden Throne.

BTW, I have a SOB army. :D


Would you be willing to accept a single person on Earth not being tempted by Chaos? Because that's about the scale we're talking about. It's an organisation of less than 50,000 people out of a galaxy-spanning empire, chosen specifically for a trait that makes them less susceptible to Chaos. Better that than the Space Marines, who recruit thugs for their compatibility with a physical process and brainwash them into soldiers.


I do not mind having a few examples of fallen sisters. I do mind that every two bit hack seems to take that as justification to add hundreds.

Actually with that 50K, comes the variance and higher mathematical probability that hundreds HAVE turned. If you have 100's of thousands of one that turned, the mathematical probability that a few hundred of another turned is grossly low in proportion. How many Space marines turned during the Heresy? 100,000? 200,000? 500, 000 out of several million? It is highly possible that Sisters, even with their small numbers, would also have a proportionate number that turned. Meaning that several hundred would be mathematically correct, though a bit on the low side if you use the highest number.

I was not being a fanboy of Space Marines, merely using the numbers probability and human nature as a base for a comparison.

AlexHolker
21-02-2011, 15:29
If you ask any Catholic Priest or Protestant minster, the pinnacles of faith in real life,
I'd appreciate it if you left real religions out of it, as the posting guidelines forbid the sort of discussion necessary to refute this line of argument.


Actually with that 50K, comes the variance and higher mathematical probability that hundreds HAVE turned. If you have 100's of thousands of one that turned, the mathematical probability that a few hundred of another turned is grossly low in proportion. How many Space marines turned during the Heresy? 100,000? 200,000? 500, 000 out of several million?
I already addressed this. Sisters of Battle specifically select those of strong faith from those raised in an orthodox environment, and then train them to the point where they can benefit from the Emperor's attention personally. Space Marines specifically select violent thugs and barbarians, follow an assortment of beliefs and do not interact with the Emperor. You cannot extrapolate one from the other, because neither is a representative sample of the population. It's like claiming that humans have a life expectancy of less than three weeks, citing a sample of ebola victims as your evidence.

thewordofblake
21-02-2011, 16:13
If you ask any Catholic Priest or Protestant minster, the pinnacles of faith in real life, if they experience doubts in their faith sometimes, most would answer yes, they do, as they are human and doubt is a human failing. Why is it so hard to believe that Sisters, as humans, are no better than us when it comes to failings of the flesh and mind? It's a philosophical argument on the premise of "unshakable" Faith, not a slam against anyone's army. There is no such thing as "unshakable" Faith in anything. One's Faith waivers on what's going on in our lives, some days it's easier to believe in something, some days it's not. That applies whether it is a man who died on a cross to cleanse the sins of mankind or a man who "entombed" on a Golden Throne.



I'd appreciate it if you left real religions out of it, as the posting guidelines forbid the sort of discussion necessary to refute this line of argument.


What sort of discussion is necessary to refute someone saying that to err, to doubt, is to be human, and citing uber-religious, even fanatical, examples of people who are super strong in their religiousness having a moment of doubt? Would it have been less of an issue, or less offensive perhaps, if he suggested asking a Yogi and a Baha'i monk if they've ever had doubts of faith?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand why you responded in that fashion. :)

AvatarForm
21-02-2011, 18:58
What sort of discussion is necessary to refute someone saying that to err, to doubt, is to be human, and citing uber-religious, even fanatical, examples of people who are super strong in their religiousness having a moment of doubt? Would it have been less of an issue, or less offensive perhaps, if he suggested asking a Yogi and a Baha'i monk if they've ever had doubts of faith?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand why you responded in that fashion. :)

Because that's just how he is.

On topic: The SoB in fluff terms are nigh-unshakeable in their faith, so much as it becomes both their weapon and aegis.

Fortunately, you have something like 30,000 years to play with and could make a force of daemon-worshippers...

Think Sisters Repentia who have sided with Khorne after their handlers were slain or something along those lines.

Nothing says that you cannot model them appropriately and use a Counts As CSM or Renegade guard list.

redbaron998
21-02-2011, 19:36
According to Cain's Last Stand, they're already allowed to drink, fornicate and gamble. I don't think the addition of tentacles and claws really adds anything. :)

Keep in mind we have no real reason to believe any of those activities are considered sinful to the Emperor. I think true devotion to the Emperor has more to do with killing aliens and mutants than worrying about drinking or gambleing (as long as they do not lead to heresy) and the book espcially says that contrary to popular belief SOBs (or at least her order) do not take vows of celibacy.

AlphariusOmegon20
22-02-2011, 00:57
I'd appreciate it if you left real religions out of it, as the posting guidelines forbid the sort of discussion necessary to refute this line of argument.

There is nothing to refute, as it is fact, whether one is a priest, minister, imam, or even the Dalai Lama. All have had, and will have in the future, moments of spiritual doubt. That is indisputable.



I already addressed this. Sisters of Battle specifically select those of strong faith from those raised in an orthodox environment, and then train them to the point where they can benefit from the Emperor's attention personally. Space Marines specifically select violent thugs and barbarians, follow an assortment of beliefs and do not interact with the Emperor. You cannot extrapolate one from the other, because neither is a representative sample of the population. It's like claiming that humans have a life expectancy of less than three weeks, citing a sample of ebola victims as your evidence.


You're trying to insert a environmental argument into a philosophical discussion. It doesn't work that way unfortunately. Environment at best, only determines WHAT philosophy you will follow. It does not determine how faithful you are at following it. That is based on a personal will level, and let's face it, humans as a whole are quite wishy washy at having personal spiritual will (otherwise, one could not explain the substantial number of atheists in our world.)

Mathematically, however you made my point for me. By taking the total number of Space marines, and comparing to both both the Sisters and the total population of the Universe, it shows both Space marines and Sisters as being outliers to the total population of their world, much like your Ebola example, which would also be an outlier for the total population of our world.

Because they are outliers, they would have a greater proportion of base changes and differences when compared to the whole, not less. Thus they would have a greater overall percentage of Nuns that would turn to Chaos than the General Population, and even the Space Marines, even though that actual number was much lower in the grand scope of things when compared to the other two, based on the smaller numbers of Sisters to begin with.

Shamana
22-02-2011, 07:17
Because they are outliers, they would have a greater proportion of base changes and differences when compared to the whole, not less. Thus they would have a greater overall percentage of Nuns that would turn to Chaos than the General Population, and even the Space Marines, even though that actual number was much lower in the grand scope of things when compared to the other two, based on the smaller numbers of Sisters to begin with.

Wait, I can't quite agree with that - otherwise any smaller group would have more defectors, always, and I'd say that's pretty hard to prove. All in all, I find the idea that they have much lower percentage of defectors and traitors than most other armed forces in the Imperium quite believable. A smaller population might have more outliers - though possibly in both directions. However, given the different environment Sisters are raised and trained in, the whole curve of indoctrination/belief/etc would be shifted. On top of that, the sisters work with slightly different recruits, place much higher value on belief, and structure their orders accordingly - these will probably have some impact too. Considering that the IG follows strict hierarchy (thus it only takes corrupting a few guys in the top) and includes whole regime made up of malcontents, and the SMs recruit from some of the most bloodthirsty warrior tribes and psychopathic gangs in the Imperium, not to mention being notoriously independent and closed to outsiders... well, being more reliable in comparison might not be all that hard.

Compared to all the different "miracles" of psychic power, technology, and social engineering in 40k, I find the idea that almost no sisters have ever fallen to Chaos easy to stomach. There is also a bit of a catch, too - any sister who shows insufficient devotion or too many doubts for the usual "therapy" to rectify may well be run out of the order (if not executed.) The ones most likely to defect don't get counted as "sisters," basically.

ShodansOwn
23-02-2011, 01:51
There is also a bit of a catch, too - any sister who shows insufficient devotion or too many doubts for the usual "therapy" to rectify may well be run out of the order (if not executed.) The ones most likely to defect don't get counted as "sisters," basically.

Thats kind of where I fall on this topic. "Sure, that former Sister turned, but we booted her out of the Order years ago". It was pointed out in the first page or two that the term "fallen Sister" is pretty hazy (how fallen, how recently was she a part of the order, was she every really a legit Sister or was she an impostor somehow etc).

Either way, looks like I've got a new modeling project: I have a few spare SoB models, and a few leftover Daemonette bitz.

The fact that the whole corruptibility is so contentious makes it even more deliciously heretical. I mean, the essence of Chaos is the most perverse twisting of reality/possibilities.

I love this thread, and I think this is a great example of how massive and deep the fluff for this franchise is (and how applicable to philosophy and sci-fi anthropology it all is).

Asi the Red
23-02-2011, 17:13
Well, there is also that thing in Cain's Last Stand where they mention a whole convent going rogue...

Bubonic Chronic
23-02-2011, 19:34
Myth busted?


No , the whole story was about them hunting down a fallen sister, maybe should have finished the whole book

Mr Zoat
23-02-2011, 19:43
Well, there is also that thing in Cain's Last Stand where they mention a whole convent going rogue...

Mind control, and the two who were freed killed themselves. They didn't change sides by choice.

Lord Damocles
23-02-2011, 20:05
No , the whole story was about them hunting down a fallen sister, maybe should have finished the whole book
This seems to bear no relevance to the arguement presented in the post you quoted from, and/or those preceeding it.

Are you arguing that Sabathiel represents the only Sister to ever have fallen to Chaos (which was the statement being argued against [disproven])?

If not, what are you arguing?

Bubonic Chronic
23-02-2011, 20:22
I must of read the posts incorrectly, I thought you were argueing against sisters ever fallen ever





If not, what are you arguing?

Im saying that it was the canoness musing on the fact that no other sob fell to chaos. Given her position and mission i'm sure she would of known of any other fallen sisters and given her piety I doubt she would lie to herself. I'm not saying she was the only one to fall. just the first

Raellos
23-02-2011, 22:53
Spoiler tag, Mr Zoat?

Asi the Red
23-02-2011, 23:05
Mind control or not, those that had been turned remained turned after the psyker's death. If I was looking for a plausible source for turning a large enough number of SoB's to make a table top force out of them, that's the route I'd go.

The OP was originally looking for "a force, or convent if you will, of individual Sororitas that become renegade/follows chaos."

Cain's Last Stand shows that a whole convent can be turned away from the Emperor. Against their will, but turned none the less.

AlexHolker
24-02-2011, 00:12
Mind control, and the two who were freed killed themselves. They didn't change sides by choice.
Mind control they're supposed to be resistant to. Inflicted by a transparent Hitler expy that is matched only by Dark Apostle's Giant Phallic Object in terms of a villain ruining the book he is in.

AvatarForm
24-02-2011, 10:38
This threead attempts to answer many questions that I have had... its awesome...

Though some of you offer unique POV that raise MORE questions...

theJ
26-02-2011, 15:10
I've got a theory on the subject. It goes somewhat like this:

Sisters of Battle are, for all their strengths, still human. As humans, they are prone to being manipulated, mind controlled, and otherwise acting against the imperial creed.
What makes the sisters special, however, is that no matter what they are forced to witness, or what acts they end up doing, they still remain loyal to the emperor.

Basically, when they say that there has only ever been a single "fallen sister", they don't mean that only one sister has ever acted against the imperium or its constitutions. What they mean is that there has only ever been a single sister to have abandoned the Imperium willingly and knowingly.

This is the key. We've got sisters serving Chaos unwillingly, I.E. mindcontrol. We've got sisters serving Chaos unknowingly, I.E. tricked/manipulated, but there has only ever been one sister to have truly fallen (incidentally, it is also my belief that she's the only female to have fallen to Slaanesh, but let's keep that debate for some other time :angel:)


I could of course be wrong, but this just strikes me as being very much in tune with the general fluff of the Sisters (it'd also be nice to see this expanded/explained whenever the next 'dex comes out).

Thoughts?

AvatarForm
26-02-2011, 22:08
I've got a theory on the subject. It goes somewhat like this:

Sisters of Battle are, for all their strengths, still human. As humans, they are prone to being manipulated, mind controlled, and otherwise acting against the imperial creed.
What makes the sisters special, however, is that no matter what they are forced to witness, or what acts they end up doing, they still remain loyal to the emperor.

Basically, when they say that there has only ever been a single "fallen sister", they don't mean that only one sister has ever acted against the imperium or its constitutions. What they mean is that there has only ever been a single sister to have abandoned the Imperium willingly and knowingly.

This is the key. We've got sisters serving Chaos unwillingly, I.E. mindcontrol. We've got sisters serving Chaos unknowingly, I.E. tricked/manipulated, but there has only ever been one sister to have truly fallen (incidentally, it is also my belief that she's the only female to have fallen to Slaanesh, but let's keep that debate for some other time :angel:)


I could of course be wrong, but this just strikes me as being very much in tune with the general fluff of the Sisters (it'd also be nice to see this expanded/explained whenever the next 'dex comes out).

Thoughts?

I can agree with your clarification on fallen... it definitely ties in with the Fallen from DAs, who willingly and knowingly did what they did and continue to do so as renegades.

However, the themed force would need their fluff explained to opponents as being the other... tricked/manipulated... eg. Orders from 'Terra' are actually a manipulation by a being from the Warp/fallen Canoness... and the force are mislead and ignorant of the true origin of their orders. Of course, being absolute in their devotion and piousness, they will not question their orders or if their prey/opponent is the correct one, and will do their duty in total faith.

theJ
27-02-2011, 16:04
I'm glad my ideas are well recieved. Although I must admit I'd expected more of an outcry over me claiming Chaos really only has ever managed to truly seduce one single sister :P

As for the themed force, you could also go by the route of "alternative forms of worship". I had this idea of someone finding an old vox recording of the Emperors denouncement of the Imperial Creed written by Fulgrim back during the crusade. If something like that showed up, all hell would break loose, and I have no doubt a group of sisters might very well change their stance on a lot of things...

Come to think of it, that might be a great setup for a campaign....

shadowhawk2008
28-02-2011, 02:53
imperial creed written by fulgrim? Huh?

theJ
28-02-2011, 05:52
yup. His strict adherence to it, as opposed to, y'know, doing his job, was what make the Emperor pissed at him, remember?


...or am I confusing the books again?

shadowhawk2008
28-02-2011, 06:39
i think you are confusing lorgar, who viewed the emperor as a god and wrote the lectitio divinatus, who was censured by the emperor with fulgrim who viewed the emperor as the perfect being and sought to emulate that perfection in his own way.

theJ
28-02-2011, 06:50
...goddammit! you're right!

well, that's what I get for writing late at night after lots and lots of weird drinks, I guess :P

sorry 'bout the confusion.

colrouphobic
28-02-2011, 08:14
Shhhh, it's supposed to be secrit!!

And almost done btw... the link shows a WiP.



Yeah, ultimately to your question...I do not believe there is any official fluff where a large group of Sisters fell into Chaos Worship.

Oh, thought ya might enjoy this fan work though, brought to you by the unnatural fear of clowns. :)

http://throneofskulls.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1878&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=10#p23322

shadowhawk2008
28-02-2011, 08:23
Shhhh, it's supposed to be secrit!!

And almost done btw... the link shows a WiP.

that's some great artwork and nice details... My mind is already getting sidetracked from my other work to a short story involving khornate sisters of battles.

Good job mate.

Hashulaman
07-03-2011, 21:46
I am sorry, but I refuse to believe just 1 woman fell to chaos, if indoctrinated Marines can fall so can Sisters. Astartes duty is just as strong as faith in the Emperor, only difference is that Marines do not venerate the Emperor.


SoB are a foil to Space Marines. The Primarchs and the Space Marines are the greatest of the Emperors creations, super humans and all that. But they are flawed, they can be corrupted and their loyalty is suspect. The SoB are regular women whose Faith and incorruptibility put their loyalty to the Emperor beyond question.

This to me sounds like a dangerous decision fluff wise to make marines more flawed than SoB when it comes to chaos, who do you think is the bigger threat when turned to chaos the normal human woman, or the walking murder machine? I think that the Imperium is not that stupid, I beleive it is easier to turn a SoB to chaos than it seems. It's just bad PR when it happens to they limit it as much as possible to be the exception to the rule, to show what bad things can happen to those who faith flounders.

At any rate the Marines turning to chaos will always get more publicity from GW simply because they are marines the poster child for 40k they will always get the most overall publicity, them and Orks.

MajorWesJanson
07-03-2011, 22:36
In Grey Knight, a Cannoness mentions that Sisters have fallen to Chaos before, unlike the Grey Knights, but the Sisters don't like to talk about them.

AlexHolker
07-03-2011, 23:45
I am sorry, but I refuse to believe just 1 woman fell to chaos, if indoctrinated Marines can fall so can Sisters. Astartes duty is just as strong as faith in the Emperor, only difference is that Marines do not venerate the Emperor.
No, it's not. Astartes duty did not stop half their number from falling to Chaos during the Horus Heresy. It does not make them resistant or immune to all psychic powers. It does not have the power to raise the dead, or render a Marine able to shrug off antitank weapons through duty alone.

Indoctrination is a shortcut, used to turn amoral thugs into soldiers.


In Grey Knight, a Cannoness mentions that Sisters have fallen to Chaos before, unlike the Grey Knights, but the Sisters don't like to talk about them.
Oh yes, Counter's attempt to make the Sisters look bad to make the Grey Knights look good. Tell me, if the Sisters "don't like to talk about them" (a convenient excuse for his retcon), why would the Canoness go out of her way to explain it to an outsider, an abhuman and a psyker?

theJ
08-03-2011, 07:50
@Hashulaman:
Considering that augmentations, wargear and other physical qualities are largely useless against warp based threats, I'd go with the side with unflinching loyalty and devotion any day of the week, since beliefs actually do make a difference in the warp.

AlphariusOmegon20
08-03-2011, 14:37
Oh yes, Counter's attempt to make the Sisters look bad to make the Grey Knights look good. Tell me, if the Sisters "don't like to talk about them" (a convenient excuse for his retcon), why would the Canoness go out of her way to explain it to an outsider, an abhuman and a psyker?

Why are two "missing" Legions never discussed by the Imperium, but the ones that fell to Chaos still talked about by them?

shadowhawk2008
08-03-2011, 16:41
Because all information pertaining to those legions has been erased from all sources and the remaining 18 primarchs swore oaths never to discuss them. There weren't enough loyal primarchs left at the end of the heresy to do something similar and because the heresy was such a galactic event. It can be assumed that the transgressions and destruction of the missing legions happened on a much smaller scale.

Muad'Dib
08-03-2011, 17:00
Because all information pertaining to those legions has been erased from all sources and the remaining 18 primarchs swore oaths never to discuss them. There weren't enough loyal primarchs left at the end of the heresy to do something similar and because the heresy was such a galactic event. It can be assumed that the transgressions and destruction of the missing legions happened on a much smaller scale.
Or that the reasons for their destruction and erasing records for them were so horrific that Emperor deemed that the truth just can't be known.

MajorWesJanson
08-03-2011, 22:38
Oh yes, Counter's attempt to make the Sisters look bad to make the Grey Knights look good. Tell me, if the Sisters "don't like to talk about them" (a convenient excuse for his retcon), why would the Canoness go out of her way to explain it to an outsider, an abhuman and a psyker?

It doesn't make sisters look bad. It shows the threat they face if their Faith falters.

As to why talk to the Grey Knight? Because it was relevant to the situation. Pragmatism over Pride.

AlphariusOmegon20
09-03-2011, 15:19
Because all information pertaining to those legions has been erased from all sources and the remaining 18 primarchs swore oaths never to discuss them.


Or that the reasons for their destruction and erasing records for them were so horrific that Emperor deemed that the truth just can't be known.

The same reasons can be applied to the Sisters falling situation.

Those situations are well known, but just not talked about on a general basis. That was one of the relatively few times it was.

AvatarForm
01-04-2011, 14:13
Just reading Grey Knights omnibus and page 239 makes reference to Fallen Sisters...

Lord Damocles
01-04-2011, 16:14
Just reading Grey Knights omnibus and page 239 makes reference to Fallen Sisters...
That would be the passage quoted on the very first page of this thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5194437&postcount=18)...

Excessus
01-04-2011, 17:25
heh, faith in the emperor and zeal didn't save the word bearers from being turned...

madprophet
01-04-2011, 21:50
Sisters have fallen - we have numerous in-universe references to fallen sisters. Only one fiction story says a single sister fell.

There is no pronouncement from "on high" saying sisters can't fall. Even if there was, you are free to ignore it because "everything you have been told is a lie".

All of the fluff is true... and all of it is false... even when it contradicts itself. Fluff nazis have nothing to stand on since there is no hard and fast fluff.

Col. Tartleton
02-04-2011, 02:22
Or we could look at it differently.

A Sister of Battle is defined by her unshakable faith.
A Space Marine is defined by his geneseed and that process of being a marine.

A Fallen Marine is still a Marine.
A Fallen Sister is no longer a Sister of Battle, and perhaps by definition never truly was.

Thus no Sister has ever fallen to Chaos. :evilgrin: :cheese:

sabreu
02-04-2011, 03:17
Cain's last stand had Sisters of Battle who had been consumed by the Chaos warlords psychic mind control. It may not have been willing service to chaos, but there you go. It's been done and can be done again.

MajorWesJanson
02-04-2011, 04:10
Or we could look at it differently.

A Sister of Battle is defined by her unshakable faith.

A sister of battle is defined as being inducted into the Imperial Creed by way of the Adeptus Sororitas. They start as normal humans, and end up as well trained humans with extreme faith, but like all humans, can fall.

Humans can fall. Astartes can fall. Primarchs can fall. The only ones who cannot fall are presumably Blanks, the Emperor (who is seemingly a warp entity himself, so could not fall by definition, only be defeated by the other warp powers) and so far Grey Knights, who seemingly have part of the Emperor himself in the makeup of their geneseed.

Depending on interpretation, Living Saints have fallen too, but fallen to the Emperor as beings similar to Daemon Princes.

theJ
02-04-2011, 06:52
Cain's last stand had Sisters of Battle who had been consumed by the Chaos warlords psychic mind control. It may not have been willing service to chaos, but there you go. It's been done and can be done again.

um... yeah, we covered that a couple pages back, and ultimately came to the conclusion that mindcontrol does not equal falling.

That's basically how the discussion ended*. To "fall" requires you to fall both willingly and knowingly, and as such, the "only one sister has ever fallen" statement actually rings true.

*it then got necroed :shifty:

TheLastSon
03-04-2011, 13:10
If faith is their greatest strength perhaps it can also be their biggest weakness? What if a demon manifests itself as a visage of the Emperor? It's entirely possible a sister could be slowly corrupted without even knowing it... Let alone a whole order.

But yeah would love to see some Khornate or Nurgle sisters!

shadowhawk2008
03-04-2011, 13:21
But yeah would love to see some Khornate or Nurgle sisters!

Perhaps you are looking for these?

Chaos Sisters (http://throneofskulls.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1878&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=10#p23322)

theJ
03-04-2011, 16:54
If faith is their greatest strength perhaps it can also be their biggest weakness? What if a demon manifests itself as a visage of the Emperor? It's entirely possible a sister could be slowly corrupted without even knowing it... Let alone a whole order.

But yeah would love to see some Khornate or Nurgle sisters!

Again, "willingly and knowingly".

It is entirely reasonable to have the sisters tricked into going against the emperors will, but that is not enough for them to have "fallen". To have fallen, they have to know that they are no longer doing the emperors work.

But yes, bottom line is, you could make a story about that :)

AlexHolker
04-04-2011, 05:00
But yeah would love to see some Khornate or Nurgle sisters!
Nurgle Sisters are the single stupidest idea in the entire setting. Nurgle's modus operandi relies entirely on convincing the victim that they have been abandoned by everyone but Nurgle, which doesn't work when you have literal proof that another, better god is watching your back and this is precisely the sort of situation that is well known to reinforce a Sister's faith. It's like selling your soul to the devil for a box of matches when you've got a cigarette lighter in your pocket.

Long_Fang
04-04-2011, 05:25
If this hasn't already been mentioned, Codex: Grey Knights has a short history blurb about corrupted sisters. It's on one of the history, dateline pages. It talks about a shrine world turned to Chaos. Khornate corruption floods from a corrupted temple converting everything it touches - including sisters.

The Grey Knights are sent in to dispatch the cultists and destroy the source of corruption. To protect themselves from the corruption of Chaos (lest they turn to Chaos themselves by its touch), the Grey Knights slay loyalists sisters and adorn their own armour in the sisters' bones. (No Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos.)

I don't have the codex on me, so I am sketchy on some of the details. In any case, there are definitely fallen sisters. That being said, it's certainly not as easy to corrupt a sister as it is an imperial soldier.

AlexHolker
04-04-2011, 05:40
Codex: Grey Knights has a short history blurb about corrupted sisters.
Codex: Grey Knights is a pile of anti-canonical ************.

madd0ct0r
04-04-2011, 12:45
hang on- starppaing bones of loyal isters confer's the 'sheild of faith' special rule?

oh gawd. oh emperor.

Sai-Lauren
04-04-2011, 15:26
Don't you find the concept of naughty nuns tempting?
Sisters of Slaanesh? Sororitas are just as liable to fall to Khorne, Tzeentch or Nurgle.

I don't think they'd fall to chaos undivided though - they'd need some being to act as a focus when they misplace it from the Emperor.



People who say that it's stupid that sisters rarely ever fall are ignoring the whole aspect of religion. The SOB's are not Space Marines with tits, they are religious zealots raised their entire lives to worship and defend the God Emperor. Unlike Space Marines who's views on the Emperor's divinity vary vastly, all the SOB's believe unflinchingly in the divinity of the Emperor.

There have been numerous examples in history of people going to the stake or being executed because they refused to recant their religion beliefs. That's the hold religion has on some people, especially in uneducated religious environments such as the Imperium. Furthermore being raised your entire life to believe in those principles will be just as good as the mind scrubbing some Space Marines undergo.

And numerous examples of people being indoctrinated into a corruption of their existing faith, or taking a different interpretation of certain aspects of it.

Let's avoid real-world examples, and go for one for the Sororitas - say that somewhere it says "You will have strength against the enemies of the Imperium".

Ok, so does that mean physical strength, and all the sisters lift weights and go on cross country runs?
Mental strength - simple trials of endurance and fasting?
Strength in numbers - there's simply lots of them?
Strength of comradeship - they are trained to be both reliant and supportive of each other?

Which one's right? And what happens if mental strength goes from trials of endurance into flagellation? Physical strength includes popping steroids or surgery to remove "weak" flesh? Comradeship winds up with the feminine version of The Sacred Band?



Of all the Chaos Gods, Nurgle is most opposed to the concept of an Adepta Sororitas. It relies on a despair that cannot exist, and a willingness to throw everyone else under the bus to save yourself that is at odds with the willingness to sacrifice for the Emperor and His Imperium. At least with Khorne and Slaanesh there are paths that a Sororitas could be drawn towards, if not for their strength of faith and will.

Nurgle's purview isn't just despair, it's also defiance - fighting the inevitable until the last of your strength is gone, then somehow fighting on beyond that point.

IcedAnimals
04-04-2011, 20:34
If this hasn't already been mentioned, Codex: Grey Knights has a short history blurb about corrupted sisters. It's on one of the history, dateline pages. It talks about a shrine world turned to Chaos. Khornate corruption floods from a corrupted temple converting everything it touches - including sisters.

The Grey Knights are sent in to dispatch the cultists and destroy the source of corruption. To protect themselves from the corruption of Chaos (lest they turn to Chaos themselves by its touch), the Grey Knights slay loyalists sisters and adorn their own armour in the sisters' bones. (No Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos.)

I don't have the codex on me, so I am sketchy on some of the details. In any case, there are definitely fallen sisters. That being said, it's certainly not as easy to corrupt a sister as it is an imperial soldier.

Jesus matt ward, you aren't even writing my codex and you are still destroying my army.

sabreu
05-04-2011, 01:26
um... yeah, we covered that a couple pages back, and ultimately came to the conclusion that mindcontrol does not equal falling.

That's basically how the discussion ended*. To "fall" requires you to fall both willingly and knowingly, and as such, the "only one sister has ever fallen" statement actually rings true.

*it then got necroed :shifty:

Missed that. Thankies.

Still, In Inquisitor we had the one repentia character who was locked away for fear of chaos corruption or something like that. So there's that too.

SabrX
05-04-2011, 02:14
If Sisters were corrupted so easily, then they wouldn't be the fighting arms of the Ecclesiarch.

If Matt Ward is writing the next SoB codex, he better redeem himself by writing a story where SoB purged a Daemonically tainted GK army.

AlphariusOmegon20
05-04-2011, 02:32
If Sisters were corrupted so easily, then they wouldn't be the fighting arms of the Ecclesiarch.

I don't think anyone in this thread claimed it's that easy to corrupt Sisters. My personal point was that you had as equal of a chance to do so as you would with any other unaugmented human.

sabreu
05-04-2011, 02:34
I don't think anyone in this thread claimed it's that easy to corrupt Sisters. My personal point was that you had as equal of a chance to do so as you would with any other unaugmented human.

Ahem. I believe the augmented ones tend to fall in droves.

Hellebore
05-04-2011, 02:55
The chaos gods see it as a challenge to corrupt a rival's worshippers. If Slannesh can get one of Khorne's worshippers to change sides it is seen as a great success.

I would imagine the same is true of sisters of battle.

Converting to a different religion from the one you are raised in is possible and happens in the real world. In 40k imperial priests turn to chaos and many imperial citizens who grew up believing in the emperor and worshipping every day turn to chaos.

The only thing that is immune is a pariah, but even then their bodies aren't. If chaos can corrupt a rock, tank or planet then it can corrupt the flesh of a pariah. It just can't corrupt their lack of a soul.

So yes, sisters should be able to turn to chaos and they should do it in the same way that many people change religions. The answers they thought they had don't work, or some kind of tragedy or anger inducing event makes them disbelieve when they previously didn't. Would it be very hard to turn a sister? Yes. Just as it would hard to turn a khornate worshipper to Slannesh. But the latter is not impossible and the former shouldn't be either.

The Ephrael Stern story had fallen sisters who turned to slannesh. The reason was in the same vein as other conversions - they were offered something their life denied them. They were repressed and rigid in their lives and over time slannesh's tempations of letting go and indulging got too much for them.

As no human has an infallible Will, not even a sister of battle, eventually they will encounter something that their will cannot stand against. It might simple like a novice sneaking some cake when she'd been starved as punishment for fumbling a hymn. That is giving in to something in her mind. It only takes them to cross a line created in their own mind once or twice before they start to subconsciously rationalise away the reasons they shouldn't do something. The biggest hurdle is the will, once they have compromised once, it's easier to do again. This is true of anyone, it's just that someone like a sororitas has a stronger self assured will and is less likely to cross that psychological line. But once they do then it is easier for them to continue to do it.

One of the things I liked about the current chaos codex background was its examination of why loyalist marines turn to the life of the renegage. They are repressed their whole life, putting their own wants aside in order to do what others need of them. Some of them cannot maintain that strength of mind forever and again it's simply when they compromise once that sets it off. That's why renegade marines are so terrifying - they go on an excess rampage to feel all the things they were not allowed, to take all the things they were denied. They satiate themselves as only a genetically enhanced super soldier can. I would imagine as sisters have as much or more of a repressed life than marines that they would react in a similarly spectacularly violent way if they went renegade.

Hellebore

Excessus
05-04-2011, 03:17
reading through this thread to find justification to convert a squad of khornate berzerker-sisters...

...well, when the plastics arrive sooner or later...

theJ
05-04-2011, 06:25
If this hasn't already been mentioned, Codex: Grey Knights has a short history blurb about corrupted sisters. It's on one of the history, dateline pages. It talks about a shrine world turned to Chaos. Khornate corruption floods from a corrupted temple converting everything it touches - including sisters.

The Grey Knights are sent in to dispatch the cultists and destroy the source of corruption. To protect themselves from the corruption of Chaos (lest they turn to Chaos themselves by its touch), the Grey Knights slay loyalists sisters and adorn their own armour in the sisters' bones. (No Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos.)

I don't have the codex on me, so I am sketchy on some of the details. In any case, there are definitely fallen sisters. That being said, it's certainly not as easy to corrupt a sister as it is an imperial soldier.

Actually... assuming you are refering to the "bloodtide" story, then it was actually pretty much the opposite. The 'bloodtide' corrupted everything including Grey Knights.
The sisters were the only ones who managed to stay pure.
This is why the Grey Knights slaughtered them - because they needed their blood for some perverse ritual to gain the purity of the sisters (new background states pretty much outright that they are all chaos sorcerers at heart).

This is why people are complaining about them.

Excessus
05-04-2011, 06:43
pretty bizarre that Magnus got scolded for using sorcery, but the GKs can do whatever they want...

shadowhawk2008
05-04-2011, 06:46
Its simple really. The Emperor isn't around to tell them what is right and what is wrong. The Inquisition controls them completely and what the Inquisition says goes.

madprophet
05-04-2011, 07:10
If Ecclesiarchs can fall then Sisters can fall.

No Grey Knight has ever fallen - that the Inquisition will admit.

Remember, every thing you have been told is a lie!

Long_Fang
05-04-2011, 07:22
Actually... assuming you are refering to the "bloodtide" story, then it was actually pretty much the opposite. The 'bloodtide' corrupted everything including Grey Knights.
The sisters were the only ones who managed to stay pure.
This is why the Grey Knights slaughtered them - because they needed their blood for some perverse ritual to gain the purity of the sisters (new background states pretty much outright that they are all chaos sorcerers at heart).

This is why people are complaining about them.

Yes, the bloodtide story. Is that really the case? That isn't how I remember it, but if you're right I'm sorry.

I'd like someone to look into that and post. I won't see the codex for another 12 hours.

Lord Damocles
05-04-2011, 08:02
Actually... assuming you are refering to the "bloodtide" story, then it was actually pretty much the opposite. The 'bloodtide' corrupted everything including Grey Knights.
The sisters were the only ones who managed to stay pure.
This is why the Grey Knights slaughtered them - because they needed their blood for some perverse ritual to gain the purity of the sisters (new background states pretty much outright that they are all chaos sorcerers at heart).

This is why people are complaining about them.


Yes, the bloodtide story. Is that really the case? That isn't how I remember it, but if you're right I'm sorry.

I'd like someone to look into that and post. I won't see the codex for another 12 hours.

'Some Battle Sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide.'
Codex: Grey Knights, pg.15


The description of the battle for Van Horne also makes no mention of corrupted Grey Knights, merely stating that the Knights needed, '...a talisman to protect against the Bloodtide's taint...'. The implication is that they could have been corrupted, but it never says that any actually were.

eldargal
05-04-2011, 08:10
You have to love the irony though. A Khornate daemon, the Bloodtide, and how do the GK respond? By hacking up their loyal, uncorrupted allies to bathe in their pure blood. Yes that doesn't suggest they have fallen to Khorne at all, no sir. If Ward did it intentionally he is far more brilliant than he gets credit for. If not, well...:shifty:

Of course it all depends if corruption and fallen are one and the same. Those SoB may have been corrupted, but had they fallen? By the same token the GK bathing in blood certainly suggests they had been corrupted to some degree to Khorne, but had they fallen? Is there any discernible difference or is it just nitpicking?:rolleyes:

Sephiroth
05-04-2011, 09:07
Of course it all depends if corruption and fallen are one and the same. Those SoB may have been corrupted, but had they fallen? By the same token the GK bathing in blood certainly suggests they had been corrupted to some degree to Khorne, but had they fallen? Is there any discernible difference or is it just nitpicking?:rolleyes:

This might help?

eldargal
05-04-2011, 09:10
I have the codex, thank you (well, my brothers copy).

Lord Damocles
05-04-2011, 09:15
Of course it all depends if corruption and fallen are one and the same. Those SoB may have been corrupted, but had they fallen? By the same token the GK bathing in blood certainly suggests they had been corrupted to some degree to Khorne, but had they fallen? Is there any discernible difference or is it just nitpicking?:rolleyes:
None of which changes the fact that theJ's claims were false.

eldargal
05-04-2011, 09:19
Quite.

Some SoB were corrupted, some weren't and the GK were worried enough about corruption to slaughter their allies. Loving the fact a regular SoB is so resistant to chaotic taint without all the stuff GKs get.

FlashGordon
05-04-2011, 12:16
Arent SoB incorruptible because of their blood?*

*Referencing the new Grey knights and contemplates its consequenses on background.

Lord Damocles
05-04-2011, 12:21
Arent SoB incorruptible because of their blood?*

*Referencing the new Grey knights and contemplates its consequenses on background.
As already illustrated multiple times, Sisters *are* corruptable; and even in Codex: Grey Knights some of them are corrupted!

FlashGordon
05-04-2011, 12:38
Should'nt this mean that grey knights could kill anyone religious enough and bathe in their blood to become (more) immune to the warp?

I have a tip for the next Codex: GK(looking at Ward) : How about wherever the Grey Knights go thay always have a group of religious people(or even Battle Sisters) so they can kill them and bathe in their blood before the battle starts. Of course, unknowingly to the "participants". ;)

@Lord Damocles:
Right you are, which makes it even more confusing.

cwang733t
05-04-2011, 17:13
Of course it all depends if corruption and fallen are one and the same. Those SoB may have been corrupted, but had they fallen? By the same token the GK bathing in blood certainly suggests they had been corrupted to some degree to Khorne, but had they fallen? Is there any discernible difference or is it just nitpicking?:rolleyes:

I think this hits the nail on the head. Grey Knights want to keep up good PR. Well what happens when you have some GKs go corrupt, but still are able to banish the Daemon? Turn it into some heroic sacrifice. I'm sure the story was appending by "All Gk died of injuries from the battle", if you get my point.

ghost21
05-04-2011, 20:00
whaaaa? okay well i do like the thought of a sect of chaos worshiping sisteresque warriors using the sob as template curoptable no, possessed yes

Col. Tartleton
05-04-2011, 20:38
Personally I think the Grey Knights just did it for lols. They were completely immune to Khornes bathwater, but no day is complete without impaling a Sister on your Nemisis Force Halberd. Or whatever the kids are calling it these days.

Shamana
05-04-2011, 21:06
I think this hits the nail on the head. Grey Knights want to keep up good PR. Well what happens when you have some GKs go corrupt, but still are able to banish the Daemon? Turn it into some heroic sacrifice. I'm sure the story was appending by "All Gk died of injuries from the battle", if you get my point.

The last codex, I would have said "Nah." The upcoming one does make it quite plausible, though.

ghost21
05-04-2011, 21:32
Personally I think the Grey Knights just did it for lols. They were completely immune to Khornes bathwater, but no day is complete without impaling a Sister on your Nemisis Force Halberd. Or whatever the kids are calling it these days.

i think its time for some good old sisters to kick there preveriable asses,

if theres a sister who kills deamon princes by blinking im seriously going to ask who wrote it and were they drunk or high, and if so give me some i could use odd visions like that

Long_Fang
05-04-2011, 21:47
'Some Battle Sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide.'
Codex: Grey Knights, pg.15


The description of the battle for Van Horne also makes no mention of corrupted Grey Knights, merely stating that the Knights needed, '...a talisman to protect against the Bloodtide's taint...'. The implication is that they could have been corrupted, but it never says that any actually were.

Great, thank you. I thought as much.

If it weren't for this story I'd side with the "sisters aren't corruptible, can't fall" camp, but I guess the GK have now taken the "incorruptible" slot in the 40K universe.

Despite all this they are still the army most resistent to psychic energy - as per the army wide "shield of faith" rule.

"Shield of Faith
The Adepta Sororitas represent the epitome of faith and purity - witchcraft, heresy and mutation are anathema to them. Force weapons lose their ability to kill their target outright (take that GK!), simply count them as power weapons. Psychic powers targeted against any unit or character with the Adapta Sororitas special rule, or include them in its area of effect, are nullified and will not work on a D6 role of 5+.

Minor psychic powers have no effect on Adapta Sororitas units or characters at all, even those used by friendly psykers that would have a beneficial effect on them."

Raellos
06-04-2011, 00:30
This might help?

Wow. My mouth actually fell open.

What the poop?

colrouphobic
06-04-2011, 08:31
Perhaps you are looking for these?

Chaos Sisters (http://throneofskulls.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1878&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=10#p23322)

Though I did post them on these forums also. And yes, the reason why I asked about corrupted Sisters was to find out some background possibilities so I could paint it.

Posted on these forums here-> http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295117


It was... illuminating... to read the extract of the GK codex... I get the sensation that the person who wrote it might have used a slightly too simplistic approach in some cases, giving alot of room for interpretation.

Since I studied religion at universitylevel and rituals and conventions of the catholic church, jewish and muslim religions are something I have a very good grasp of, the passage made me think I would have written it like this:

"...needing a relic to protect them, the Grey Knights demanded the sacrifice of the pure Sisters of Battle, in the name of the Emperor, to shield them on their assault on the Bloodtide. Some say the sisters gave it up willingly, some say they where slaughtered..."

That wy you get historical references similar to the Inquisition in Europe, open ended interpretation in regards to both the zeal of GKs and the SoB's views on the GKs..


But anyway, it's a digression from the topic.

Is it possible for Sisters to fall? Yes. Of course, the possibility is ALWAYS there with humans that breath and think. We are run by our needs. even SoBs. The question is what those needs are?


Has it ever happened? Maybe, depending on ones view.

Do we know the full scope of it? No

Will we ever? No, too much conflicting info.

Is the codex material 100% clear on this?

Of course not, like someone said earlier- all entries in the Codexes, Imperium OR Xenos, are written from the perspective of the Imperium.

Think of the worst (in the fact that he/she succeeds all the time) propaganda-makers you know of.
Now concider that the Imperium have THOUSANDS of these sort of guys(girls).

Letting people know that this or that fraction has fallen, or atleast parts of them? Preposterous, that would be a serious shock to the morale of the everyday person.

But Marines fell- I hear you say- of course, and everyone knows of it because, simply put, you couldnt contain it. Word got out.

Since many marines fell during the heresy, whispers of one marine here or one chapter there isnt that hard to conceive. Hence the spreading of the word becomes a different sort of propaganda.

But the GK surely are different (in the mind of everyday citizens), and so are Sisters of Battle...And the Lords of Terra... And the Inquisition...


I have only read the first of the IA books on the Badab War, but pose the question- the guys who lost... Did they Fall?
After answering this question, ask yourself what the average citizen of the Imperium think (if they know of the situation of course).
Propaganda. It suits the Imperium to portray things in different ways.

It is a very interesting thing to read about though, and this thread inspires me a whole deal.

Lord Damocles
06-04-2011, 08:48
Has it ever happened? Maybe, depending on ones view.
I'm still struggling to see how anyone can hold the view that Sisters can't fall/be corrupted in the face of all the evidence already presented.

There can be no 'maybe' about it. There have been multiple instances of 'Chaos Sisters'.

colrouphobic
06-04-2011, 09:48
I'm still struggling to see how anyone can hold the view that Sisters can't fall/be corrupted in the face of all the evidence already presented.

There can be no 'maybe' about it. There have been multiple instances of 'Chaos Sisters'.

In your view.
Thats sort of my point.

I never argue that sisters CANT fall, rather, I argued that whether they HAVE or HAVE NOT is a matter of perception.

Obviously, since people fervously say the have fallen, and others, with equal fervour state they haven't, it is a matter of personal view whether it has happened or not.

Id like to point at this: http://www.bscreview.com/2011/03/grimdark-ii-loose-canon/
which is an interesting read I think.

Lord Damocles
06-04-2011, 10:53
In your view.
But it's not [just] 'my view' at all.

It's what the background actually describes - and it isn't even from just a single source which can just be handwaved away as certain posters are so fond of doing.



I never argue that sisters CANT fall, rather, I argued that whether they HAVE or HAVE NOT is a matter of perception.
I think I see where you're going - a 'there is no canon', 'everything is true and nothing is true', 'everyone makes their own canon' line of argument.

This has been brought up multiple times in the past, and each time such a stance has failed to find reasonable support. Iracundus summerised the argument particularly well:


Clearly despite all their waffling away from the word canon, they still use the concept as if you go around trying to say there was no Emperor, no Horus, no Heresy, Sanguinius had 100 limbs, all bolters firing daisies etc... they would say "No, that is wrong. That is not what the universe is." GW uses canon in every sense except use of the term. Without it there is no such thing as a setting. It isn't possible to "lay out a setting" if there are no canonical facts about the what happened in the universe or how things work in the universe.

Again in the previously quoted from thread, such tactics were used but even those claiming to argue there is "no canon" could not justify such a position as even in their own minds there is a de-facto canon in operation. When they talk about bolters, they clearly mean the big guns that fire mass reactive gyrojet rounds and when they refer to Blood Angels there is a common agreement they are red and that their Primarch was not Homer Simpson. Yet if there is no canon, such things would not be true. You wouldn't be able to say bolters fire anything with any certainty nor would you be able to say who the Blood Angels were, what color they were or whether there is an Imperium at all. Without canon, you can say literally nothing with any certainty and if nothing is certain, what you have is a collapse of the setting into nonsense.

None of the people that have in the past tried to argue "there is no canon", not even GW, actually truly adheres to it as they adhere to consistent setting facts and rules. The fact that anything can be said with certainty in the 40K universe means there is a canon in operation at GW and in the community, even if it might be subject to modification or retcon.
(thread: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5426494&highlight=canon#post5426494, and mentioned previously quoted thread: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4570994#post4570994)



Obviously, since people fervously say the have fallen, and others, with equal fervour state they haven't, it is a matter of personal view whether it has happened or not.
Perhaps if there was any evidence that 'Sisters have never fallen', or 'Sisters can't be corrupted' I'd have more sympathy with your argument, but thus far absolutely no solid evidence has been provided to support any such position(s). Indeed, I've already discredited those arguments put forward in the first couple of posts.

Even the line of argument which has attempted to make some distinction beween 'falling' and being 'corrupted' has been based purely on unsupported speculation.


I could claim that the Sisters of Battle are all male, and refuse to accept any and all evidence presented to the contrary. That there is a debate over the point wouldn't make my position any more reasonable.

Excessus
06-04-2011, 11:50
it's pointless to discuss whether they 'can' or 'can not' fall, at least one has fallen in the fluff, thus it is proven that it is possible to make them fall...

colrouphobic
06-04-2011, 12:21
But it's not [just] 'my view' at all.

It's what the background actually describes - and it isn't even from just a single source which can just be handwaved away as certain posters are so fond of doing.



I think I see where you're going - a 'there is no canon', 'everything is true and nothing is true', 'everyone makes their own canon' line of argument.

It's erroneous of you to think that I support "everyone creates their own canon" because I do not.
However, I _do_ support that "everyone _views_ canon in their own way".

Are there multiple times mentioned that SoBs have fallen- sure, why not.
Are all of those (or even a single one) canon?- I honestly dont know. What IS canon? What is it to have fallen?
You cannot provide anything but your own view on those two questions- hence it is your perception on what is true or not.
Even in that latest excerp from the GK codex it states nothing of fallen Sisters, It sais "tainted". Mind you, taint is not the same as to have fallen. Unless you, in your personal view on canon, reads "taint = fallen".
I can assure you that there are a huge amount of people, possibly within GW itself even, that view taint as something different from fallen, just as there are those who view it as taint= fallen, possibly even withi GW.


So you are then let to the non-codex books for your "canon". But then you face a problem, taken up in that very link I posted above- if you collect all material GW, FW and BL has published, they are all offering different views on the same subject. All of it is true, or none of it is true- depending on how you view it.




You can see it all as being falsified in some ways- The propaganda is what shows through- things are not what they seem to be and "character X of book Y thought Z whilst it probably was something else that was going on".



Thats a rationalise you are perfectly entitled to.



Likewise, you can think that all is true and "retconned" throughout different instances. That is also your right to do.



And there are countless of views that land somewhere inbetween these two, that you could also pick, depending on how you read the material and how you view it.




Regardless of which, you still end up on one final point-
you view it your way.
Just as much as you view it your way, I (or anyone else) have the right to view it their own way.






At this point I would like to point out, once again, the remarkable thing you have done here- you sort of picked a fight on this with a person who agrees with your view on "canon".
I personally believe that SoBs not just can fall, but that there must be numerous instances where that has happened.





But this is besides the point-

This is no totalitarian world. You do not have utter dominion of what people are or are not allowed to think or read into things.
For that I was offering a "midway" solution, something to let people remember what actually this is- a game, with rules and background made up for us to play and enjoy, and as such it is our right to read into it whatever we believe we read into it!

When I originally posed the question, I wasnt really after personal opinions, I was after points where something like this might have been pointed out in canon material, whether GW, BL, FW or even FFG.
The reasons for these sort of questions from me are very selfish- I want to know whether I can "sell the idea" through an image, either for fans of this game, or for GW, BL, FW or FFG- or all of them.
This is to gather more work for me, through my portfolio.



Because thats what I do, I work as an illustrator, I paint things people want to see.



Sometimes I get this crazy idea that I wish to paint, but I need to anchor it with a base of "facts" (for a lack of better word). And the best group of people, to date, to ask about these things, are fans of the game.

They/you know where to find information faster then me most of the time. Some times I have the books, but Im not a wealthy person and I do not own all of the books from the 40k universe, so I need to know whether there is something outside of my own library on occasion, perhaps a reference or image or hint somewhere that I am unaware of.

So thats what I wanted to know- not to see a tirade of "I believe"-type arguments hid behind notions of "THIS is canon, THAT isnt" or "Whilst 10 people think that way, I am with a group of 5 people and we think the opposite- their opinion is not supported enough so you MUST think like _i_ do (eventhoughmyopinionisequallylittlesupportedorless (tm)).

Frankly I get suprised at the amount of intolerance there is between different opinions.


I'll just ask questions elsewhere next time.




Perhaps if there was any evidence that 'Sisters have never fallen', or 'Sisters can't be corrupted' I'd have more sympathy with your argument, but thus far absolutely no solid evidence has been provided to support any such position(s). Indeed, I've already discredited those arguments put forward in the first couple of posts.

Even the line of argument which has attempted to make some distinction beween 'falling' and being 'corrupted' has been based purely on unsupported speculation.


I could claim that the Sisters of Battle are all male, and refuse to accept any and all evidence presented to the contrary. That there is a debate over the point wouldn't make my position any more reasonable.


yeah, like I said above... unsuported...

In numbers I think that you cannot give anyone the higher amount of supporters. Problem when you dont have every singular Wh40k player had cast a vote on the issue.

In canon I think you need to reread what I just said above- it comes down to what you think, how you perceive and read the material let out on this.

I'd also like to point out that there is no "evidence" in either direction, because this is fiction, written to entertain.
Marvelous thing with fiction is that it all comes down to how the individual person reads it. The individual will build up an image in their head o how things are in the fiction. This is called "fiction driven imaginations".

They are completely individual and are based upon how people read something and then reimagine it.

This way, Tau are space communists for some, plain aliens for some and the hope of the galaxy for others.
Sisters of Battle are the emperors light for some, the incorruptible for others and nuns with guns for yet others.

There is nothing you can do about that fact, thats what makes humans such great storytellers, our imagination and filling in "blanks".


Sometiles this happen because we read something too fast and missed words, sometiles because we dont have all the facts and sometimes it happends because we understand words different from oneanother.

Still something you cannot do anything about.



let me finalize with a repetition- Im not arguing against you on whether SoBs can fall or not, but I AM arguing against you because you are trying to force opinion on people through your argumentation.
Thats not something you have the right to do, nor I, nor anyone in the free world.

Post your arguments, build them up on other arguments and your views on things, but _do not_ force them to your own opinion.
Its rude and, I believe, against the ethical guidelines of these forums.

theJ
08-04-2011, 09:11
None of which changes the fact that theJ's claims were false.

So it would seem, I'm sorry about that.

The point about the subjectiveness of fluff seems to be the only truth, though. As such, I'll answer him what I think it was he wanted to hear:

"No, I do not really care to see corrupted sisters (awesome painting though it may be), because being incorruptible is all they ever had - to remove it is to remove what the sisters are and stand for, leaving... well... nothing but marines with boobs (which isn't really much of a flavour, tbh)."

"As with any part of the hobby, if you really want to paint corrupted sisters, or convert corrupted sisters, or write about corrupted sisters, then it is not my place to stop you. All I can do is answer your question as honestly as I can, and that answer is a very clear: 'no, sisters do not get corrupted', followed by 'a sister may be tricked, decieved, mindcontrolled, possessed, and a whole lot of other things, but in heart and mind, they will always stay pure'."

All that being said, I will still directly say no to the idea that corrupted sisters are a part of the wider background, which is what this thread has become. As has been mentioned, there are no absolutes within the fluff, a bolter can just as easily be described as firing bullets as it can be described to fire rockets. Flak armour can just as easily be described as being highly effective armour, favoured by hardened veterans, as it can be made of paper, and be unable to defend you from a butter knife. Just the same, the sisters can be described as being corrupted.

Of course there is no absolute "sisters can never be corrupted". There is no absolute anything! All the "facts" we have is merely what is commonly accepted by us, the fans, and I dare say (with some exceptions, of course) that the accepted fact on the subject is that sisters do not get corrupted. Again, because the other alternative would leave the sisters without a place in the setting.

I am sorry that my earlier statement proved false, and I hope you can all forgive me for it. I also hope you can see the reasons for my view, and possibly even accept it.

/J