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RanaldLoec
20-12-2010, 13:41
We all know that some armies in 8th edition are less competitive e.g. Wood elves, Tomb Kings etc.

My post is very army specific I apologise for this as I really only have experience using Empire, Wood elves and very recently Warriors of Chaos but i've a good knowledge of all the armies and I own a copy of every army book and have read most of them more than a few times.

My first ever GW army was Empire back in 1990 (my profile is wrong), I started my Wood elves in early 2008 and Warriors of Chaos just last month.

I like to pick an army concentrate on it, play with it until I have a strong grasp of how each unit works individually and with other units. What characters and builds compliment and support the armyís play style?

I would view my Empire as having benefited in 8th edition allot of the new rules benefit the Empires play style greatly. My Wood elves army got a bit of a nerf as it mainly consists of Dryads, Wardancers, Treeman and Treekin. The skirmishes being the bit that got nerfed.


Any way I digress, I am biased when it comes to Empire as I have a very strong connection to that army but I believe that The Empire can be a very :cheese:competitive:cheese: army in 8th edition against any army. I would list why I believe this but my post would be four or five times the length its is now and I hate having to read a wall of text. I personally think Empire can adapt to any of the other fantasy armies and provide a challenge for any opponent, but I was wondering what Warseer as a whole thought of the Empire.

How do you find the army balance?

Can the Empire be competitive?

What armies in your opinion provide the biggest challenge to Empire?


Notice Iíve avoided using any power ranking system or moaning about anything thatís broken. I think an army is only as good as the player behind it even an uncompetitive army can perform well under a good player. Even a competitive army can suck when played by a troll.

freddieyu
20-12-2010, 13:56
In a nutshell, the empire is competitive because....

1. It is a balanced army that can excel in all phases of the game (yes even close combat, with the idea that you weaken the enemy first by shooting).
2. It does not rely on any deathstar unit (the Stank comes close, but it is a resilient thing versus almost everything the game can throw at it.except the Lore of Metal, which thankfully is not a commonly used lore)
3. Steadfast can be easily achieved by the empire with it's ranks of cheap troops, and with the advent of no guessing as well as partial template hits = hits, 8t ed rules has really made several elements of the empire list more effective.

In a game based on dice, of course luck has a part....tactics can only try to minimize bad luck, but when the dice gods are against you...well, every true player has had those days....

I think the problem of your buddy is simply one of mindset..."My army is good, so any victory over mine SURELY must be due to good luck on my opponent"...

However, we do know that good players also create their own luck...

RMacDeezy
20-12-2010, 15:42
A recent discussion brought to my attention that one player considered Empire a poor match to his army and that any wins I had where down to luck or me playing against people who don’t try!?:wtf::confused:


is this a reference to the "which army to beat daemons thread?" if so, you're completely twisting the words of the other poster. iirc, you said something along the lines of your empire army walking through DoC with no trouble whatsoever. that is what caused him to draw the conclusion that you are either extremely lucky or play opponents of no skill. his post was more of a response to your assertion that no DoC army has ever given you trouble, rather than a claim that Empire is a non-competitive army.

here's what he said

Well of course... If you get to use your troops in an optimal way to 100% of course you're gonna win easily.

I would still call that luck though. unless you play against peeps who arn't trying.

here's what you said

Maybe your Empire opponents just arnt as good a general as you are or you know their play style too well.

keep the discussion between you and daemonreign or don't misrepresent it to others.

and if this is not a reference to that thread, please disregard the entire above ;) and here would be my response-



Do you think The Empire as a table top army is uncompetitive?

Do you consider an Empire army a poor match to any of yours?

Do you think any wins with Empire Vs your army is down to luck?

Do you think the Empire can create effective army builds?

Are there any Empire army lists you see set up and think this is going to be a challenge?



empire is a hugely competitive army due to having one of the most flexible lists and being strong in every phase of the game, however, empire gunlines have historically performed abysmally against my all-slaanesh DoC force. a more balanced army gives me more trouble. likewise, i've been tempted to hurl my GD model at my empire opponent when he shows up with 2 popes, war altar, and as many flagellants, warrior priests and mortars as he can squeeze into his list. and absolutely a game vs Empire can come down to luck. for instance, a game can be decided on whether or not he rolls 5 wounds from his cannon shot on my keeper. if he does, she dies and i'm down 600 or so VP's. if he doesn't, she'll make it to combat, regain all her lost wounds and be completely safe from anything he can throw at her. your last 2 questions are essentially the same thing which i've already answered with "yes, and it usually involves warrior priests and flagellants." but i also believe empire can be competitive in the most important way, which is being able to field an army that looks GORGEOUS on the tabletop.

shelfunit.
20-12-2010, 15:58
I think Empire are a great army, not just because they can look fantastic fully painted and ranked up, but because of the vast customizability of the army list.
There are very cheap WS4 I4 troops in swordsmen and the others (spears/halberdiers) are not too shabby either. They have cheap and very good ranged core as well, both handgunners and crossbows being excellent.
Knights fill a role and whilst the nature of the game has changed against cavelry a full unit of them can still dish out a goodly ammount of pain.
Greatswords pack a decent punch and with Ld8 Stubborn can stick around for a while against most opponents.
Flagellents are a must as fantastic tarpit troops.
On top of this you have all the mad warmachines which can churn an enemy army to a red/green/dusty mush with only a small amount of effort with the newer template and guessless range rules.
Finally all the characters have abilities and a cheapess to them that allows amazing value for what is paid and for 50pts a captain is one of the best value characters in the game.

At worst I find the empire to be a decent army, and well played can be deadly to any army in 8th.

Jorgen_CAB
20-12-2010, 16:15
In my opinion Empire are perhaps slightly harder to master than many armies of the same reason that make it so great, its versatility.

A good player can usually turn Empire into a challenge against any army with a single army list build. Most other armies have problem doing this and this is what makes Empire a great army.

But as I said, beginners might find the Empire army hard to play with and loose more games than they win. Certain other armies are easier to play with (as a beginner) such as Demons and Chaos. But once you gain experience and can use the different units to support each other and maneuver to disrupt your opponents movement etc... then the Empire army is very competitive.

DaemonReign
20-12-2010, 17:59
@RanaldLoenec

I am sorry dude I never checked back on that thread where we were talking about Empire-competativeness vs DoC. It seems RMacDeezy has helped you interpret what I said in that thread in a more balanced, correct way.

I meant "luck" as in: Wow.. You "win" the Depolyment Phase and manage to pit your every "first choice" unit against exactly the DoC units you want to face.. I mean of course you want your knights charging Daemonettes and you want your steadfast blocks to hold up Bloodletter-hordes.. but unless your opponant isn't even trying to match your deployment (or you constantly play the Meeting Engagement scenario) it's gotta be described as luck to get that match-up.

And WHEN Bloodletter-horde run into Knights while those steadfast Empire-blocks are being outflanked by daemonettes (just examples!) then have all the Engineers in the world (!) you're still gonna be in trouble.

On the other hand: Yes I only play friendly games. Yes I know the guys I play with since pre-school. And yes I am aware that in our group we pretty much know each-other's entire collections by heart (oh! I just saw you painted another Goblin.. good for you!" - that kind of thing) so I am in no way saying you're Wrong or trying start some fueding contest. . . Just so you know.

Ghazbad_Facestompa
20-12-2010, 18:04
As has been said, Empire is extremely versatile. They can get amazing magic defense, great magic, great shooting, and decent combat (once the foe's been whittled down a bit, anyway). They look amazing with a good paint job, and you can field an army all in recent, good-looking plastics (bar the occasional priest or captain). There's a reason I think I'm going with Reikland Empire next.

Odominus
20-12-2010, 18:56
Empire placed top 4 in Ard Boyz this year. Would that be possible if they weren't competitive?

Torpedo Vegas
20-12-2010, 18:58
Of course Empire is a competitive army
Its provides a several different and viable play styles. Want to go calv? Cheap Calvary with decent stats. Want to do a gunline? Empire is (arguably) second only to dwarfs in that respect, plenty of shooty troops and artillery. Want to do all infantry? The detachment system lets you build a finesse army that relies on synergy to win combats.

Your opponents argument is rubbish. Yes, if you run a gunline against, say, foot slogging High Elves, its going to be a tough game for the elves, but that doesn't mean that the entire army relies on luck. It sounds to my that your opponent is just whining instead of trying to actually get better or develop different tactics to beat you.

MrsMuggins
20-12-2010, 19:51
is this a reference to the "which army to beat daemons thread?" if so, you're completely twisting the words of the other poster. iirc, you said something along the lines of your empire army walking through DoC with no trouble whatsoever. that is what caused him to draw the conclusion that you are either extremely lucky or play opponents of no skill. his post was more of a response to your assertion that no DoC army has ever given you trouble, rather than a claim that Empire is a non-competitive army.

keep the discussion between you and daemonreign or don't misrepresent it to others.



I've read the tatics thread and Ranalds post didn't come across that way to me. I got the impression that the initial comment was a bit tongue in cheek.

After that Ranlad just goes on to say how empire can be difficult to play against as they can do dispel dice spam quite well and have good choices for targeting demons weaknesses.

And seen as its a public forum how are you meant to keep anything posted private!

As for Empire been uncompetitve that's a resounding no there a pain as they do everything moderately well.

RMacDeezy
20-12-2010, 20:17
I've read the tatics thread and Ranalds post didn't come across that way to me. I got the impression that the initial comment was a bit tongue in cheek.

After that Ranlad just goes on to say how empire can be difficult to play against as they can do dispel dice spam quite well and have good choices for targeting demons weaknesses.

And seen as its a public forum how are you meant to keep anything posted private!

As for Empire been uncompetitve that's a resounding no there a pain as they do everything moderately well.

the initial comment was tongue in cheek. no one has an issue with that. there's nothing wrong with what he said in that thread, just his representation of it in this thread (if indeed he is referencing it in this thread, which i don't know, hence the disclaimer in my post). and there is a pm function on this forum. anyway, all i'm saying is if this thread is in response to daemonreign's comments, it is blatant trolling. he doesn't accurately represent either side of the argument in the other thread. however, without RanaldLoec's own input, i could be way off base here, throwing out accusations of foul play like a lunatic. i'll say no more on the subject as it is not furthering any worthwhile discussion and i'm sure others wanting to read an "empire competitiveness" thread don't want it cluttered with reprimands and call-outs or what have you.

scarletsquig
20-12-2010, 23:03
Empire is definitely competitive in 8th, they can face off against anyone. Strongest parts of the list are:

- Steam Tank.

- All the artillery. Special mention to 75-point mortars, which are now utterly brutal, especially in a battery of 3 supported by an engineer.

- Warrior Priests and Arch Lectors, war altar is even better now.

- Horde Infantry.

- Cheap 1+ save core cavalry. No other army gets this option.

- Solid cheap character choices that are easy to give tons of armour to. Magic item section is solid, too. Access to all magic lores.

Wakerofgods
20-12-2010, 23:06
I took this as his opinion but I do have to say I disagree, but Iím interested in what Warseer considers of The Empire.

1.Do you think The Empire as a table top army is uncompetitive?

2.Do you consider an Empire army a poor match to any of yours?

3.Do you think any wins with Empire Vs your army is down to luck?

4.Do you think the Empire can create effective army builds?

5.Are there any Empire army lists you see set up and think this is going to be a challenge?


1. I think of the empire as a good army with lots of viable options.

2. I play WOC (and often borrow my friends empire army), they do well against WOC - shooting can work really well. Sometimes specific matchups (shooting heavy list comes up against me when I take nurgle) are bad for the empire, but some are bad for WOC too.

3. Not really sure on this one.

4. Very much so.

5. Make sure the different parts of your armies work together.

ftayl5
21-12-2010, 04:21
Empire sure is competitive. I've heard significant whining about the Skaven Doomrocket, Empire can do essentially the same thing twice a turn, every turn, not just once per game.

The key to empire is probably balance and cohesiveness. Eg. Their combat sucks! If you haven't whittled down the enemy with shooting first or used hexes, augments and other magic stuff.
But if you have, then you'll fare quite well in combat.

But anyway, yes they are competitive.