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Zarryiosiad
21-12-2010, 22:18
I was reading the BRB yesterday, and I happened upon the section concerning special weapons. In it, it said that a model that has a special weapon (halberd, great weapon, etc.) cannot voluntarily choose to use a hand weapon instead of using the special weapon.

Does this mean models like Bretonnian Men-at-arms or Clanrats have to use their spears or halberds instead of claiming a 6+ ward save for the hand weapon+shield combo? Or would a hand weapon+shield be considered a "special weapon" as well?

Zarryiosiad

theunwantedbeing
21-12-2010, 22:23
A hand weapon and sheild is not a special weapon.

Ravenar
21-12-2010, 22:25
Yes, you must use your special weapon (halberd, spear, ...). No, currently hand weapon + shield is not considered a special weapon.

And yes, it is a pain for those models that pay a points premium to automatically take something you when you would just rather use HW+S.

Zarryiosiad
21-12-2010, 22:32
I was afraid of that. Makes for some interesting choices for Marauders, Chaos Warriors and the like. I feel bad for Black Orcs in particular. They just lost a lot of survivability.

Zarryiosiad

Harwammer
21-12-2010, 22:39
The armed to da teef rule actually specifically says black orcs can use choppa and shield over special weapons (if desired) so don't feel bad for them...

Da Crusha
22-12-2010, 01:20
Blackorcs are now some of the most versatile troops in the game!

a18no
22-12-2010, 14:14
The troop that are nurfed for that are mainly core troop that got spears for free. Like high elf spear and dark elf spear. And it made empire spearmen even worst than before.

Whe you pay for upgrade, at least you got the choice.

Happy Christmas!

Zarryiosiad
22-12-2010, 16:51
The two I keep coming back to in my head are Marauders and Chaos Warriors. I modeled 160 Chaos Marauders to be carrying both a great weapon and a shield. 7th edition it made sense, as I could choose the great weapon if I got in a charge and needed the hitting power, or hand weapon+shield if I needed an extra bit of survivability. In this edition, neither choice is optimal: because charging is relatively pointless, it's far better to use a flail so you don't strike last.

Chaos warriors of Tzeentch actually got a buff, in my opinion. Take a unit of Tzeentch Chaos Warriors with Hand Weapon+Shield, and they have a 3+ armor save, and a 5+ Ward Save in close combat. Add to that the Banner of Rage and they become a no-brainer unit.

Zarryiosiad

Jericho
22-12-2010, 19:36
Taking HW+Sh on Tzeentch Warriors is brainless, not a no-brainer. Frenzy means you can't use the Parry special rule.

Zarryiosiad
23-12-2010, 00:27
Ah, forgot about that! So, leave off the Banner of Rage. 2 attacks is just fine.

Zarry

Chiungalla
23-12-2010, 09:37
In this edition, neither choice is optimal: because charging is relatively pointless, it's far better to use a flail so you don't strike last.

With a big sized unit, it's better to take the great weapon, strike last, and still do lots of damage on turn 2+ in close combat.

T10
23-12-2010, 10:17
...In this edition, neither choice is optimal: because charging is relatively pointless, it's far better to use a flail so you don't strike last.


You're right in that flails are the better choice these days, at least for Marauders.

Great weapons will move your initiative from "first-or-tied" to "second" when facing most enemy units. Retaining the +2 Strength bonus for multiple rounds of close combat should in theory make up for striking last, but Marauders are too fragile to stand toe-to-toe and grind down the kind of enemy that needs to Strength 5 attacks to deal with.

-T10

theorox
23-12-2010, 10:28
GW's are far superior. I rather strike with half my attacks at full Str than all of my attacks at Str3... And if i have a big unit, who cares how many die?

Theo

Harwammer
23-12-2010, 14:02
Ah, forgot about that! So, leave off the Banner of Rage. 2 attacks is just fine.

Zarry

Even though Banner of Rage's frenzy gets rid of the parry bonus a model with 3 str 4 attacks, 3+ armour, 6++ ward is still pretty tasty!

If you have a model with MR and/or ironcurse icon in the BoR unit MoT still may well be worthwhile. Likewise if you have a lot of warshrines it may still be worthwhile for a shot at the 3+ ward :)

Greyfire
25-12-2010, 16:45
Does anyone know why this change was made? Forcing units that upgrade their weapons to lose their base equipment has me confused, but I thought repeated plays would help me understand the change. I think I'm missing something though.

theunwantedbeing
25-12-2010, 16:48
Does anyone know why this change was made? Forcing units that upgrade their weapons to lose their base equipment has me confused, but I thought repeated plays would help me understand the change. I think I'm missing something though.

Nobody used the "special weapon", everyone always used the hand weapon and sheild bonus to get the better armour save.
You don't lose your base equipment, infact a lot of troops "base equipment" was a special weapon, that was never used in the previous edition(s).

Greyfire
25-12-2010, 19:20
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something. My saurus with spears would most of the time use spears (in 7th) and only sometimes choose HW+Shield. I got to choose between a possible 20 attacks with normal saves and 10 attacks with a better save, as I needed. Now I don't have that choice during the game. During army construction I have it, but once I pay the extra point for the spear I lose the option to ever use their original equipment in combat. Please understand that I'm not trying to start the old bash 8th ed arguement, so please let's try to avoid that. But after repeated plays I've had some situations where I would have forfeited the extra attack for some bonus to armor. Especially now since the HW+Shield offers a 6+ ward save, and not just a bump to the armor save.

And maybe that's the reason it was changed: because being able to select a 6+ ward save on demand was considered too powerful? So sticking with the weapon upgrades all the time was for balance?

theunwantedbeing
25-12-2010, 19:39
Saurus with spears were the exception to the rule.

Eta
25-12-2010, 21:41
Saurus with spears were the exception to the rule.

Chaos Warriors with shields and halberds, too? ;)

theorox
25-12-2010, 21:50
Chaos Warriors with shields and halberds, too? ;)

That too. And a few others. Being lovely nitpicky, are we? :D

Theo

T10
25-12-2010, 23:18
Does anyone know why this change was made? Forcing units that upgrade their weapons to lose their base equipment has me confused, but I thought repeated plays would help me understand the change. I think I'm missing something though.
This way it is very clear what weapons the unit will use. The only real nuisance is the spear: I feel that getting an additional supporting attack (spear) is worth as much as the improved protection from the parry save (hand weapon). In my opinion, having a shield and spear should cost the same as a handweapon and shield...

Chiungalla
26-12-2010, 07:53
Maybe weapon options will get smaller price tags in the upcoming new army books. We will see.