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View Full Version : Chaplains and the traitor legions



MarshalFaust
22-12-2010, 19:29
so im a little confused about their role maybe someone can help me straighten his out.

What we know:
-Chaplains originated in the word bearers legion
-propagated to all the legions after Nikea to enforce the the emperors edicts on sorcery.
-were apparently used by Lorgar, Kor Phaeron and Horus to spread the warrior lodges and determine which legions he could count on to turn traitor.

but if i recall the old fluff was that all the traitor legions killed their chaplains because they wouldn't turn yet Charmosian is leading traitor Emperors Children against their loyalists on istvaan III and we know that the word bearers chaplains were making contacts with other legion chaplains(iron warriors) in order to set up the warrior lodges. so whats the deal? why dont the black legion, iron warriors, world eaters and night lords still have their chaplains? i can see why deathguard, thousand sons, emperors children and alpha legion dont have them but am i missing a critical piece of background?

Col. Tartleton
22-12-2010, 19:42
I'm sure its in the process of a retcon if it comes up in detail. The Chaplains are part of the fall catalyst. They should be powerful Chaos Lords if they're still around.

Dante101
22-12-2010, 21:53
so im a little confused about their role maybe someone can help me straighten his out.

What we know:
-Chaplains originated in the word bearers legion
-propagated to all the legions after Nikea to enforce the the emperors edicts on sorcery.
-were apparently used by Lorgar, Kor Phaeron and Horus to spread the warrior lodges and determine which legions he could count on to turn traitor.

but if i recall the old fluff was that all the traitor legions killed their chaplains because they wouldn't turn yet Charmosian is leading traitor Emperors Children against their loyalists on istvaan III and we know that the word bearers chaplains were making contacts with other legion chaplains(iron warriors) in order to set up the warrior lodges. so whats the deal? why dont the black legion, iron warriors, world eaters and night lords still have their chaplains? i can see why deathguard, thousand sons, emperors children and alpha legion dont have them but am i missing a critical piece of background?

The word bearer's were the only legion whose chaplain's turned. In almost every other legion, they had to kill their chaplains as well as other loyalist elements when they turned from the emperor (this may be retconned)

A Shadow
22-12-2010, 22:39
It may be that while the Chaplain Edict was established by Lorgar, most of the other Legions Chaplains remained loyal to the Emperor first and the warrior lodges second, whereas the Word Bearers were loyal to Lorgar (and the lodges) first and nothing second.

AlphariusOmegon20
23-12-2010, 00:35
so im a little confused about their role maybe someone can help me straighten his out.

What we know:
-Chaplains originated in the word bearers legion
-propagated to all the legions after Nikea to enforce the the emperors edicts on sorcery.
-were apparently used by Lorgar, Kor Phaeron and Horus to spread the warrior lodges and determine which legions he could count on to turn traitor.

but if i recall the old fluff was that all the traitor legions killed their chaplains because they wouldn't turn yet Charmosian is leading traitor Emperors Children against their loyalists on istvaan III and we know that the word bearers chaplains were making contacts with other legion chaplains(iron warriors) in order to set up the warrior lodges. so whats the deal? why dont the black legion, iron warriors, world eaters and night lords still have their chaplains? i can see why deathguard, thousand sons, emperors children and alpha legion dont have them but am i missing a critical piece of background?

I'd guess that AL never had them in the first place. They just told the Imperium they had them. (Sort of a variant of every AL saying "I am Alpharius" thing. "I am the High Chaplain of Alpha Legion"....)

Nazguire
23-12-2010, 02:59
I don't see any reason as to why this wouldn't be still considered canon. Just because a few didn't support their Traitor Primarchs didn't mean that this can be considered the rule.

Bonzai
23-12-2010, 14:08
By it's very nature, a Chaplain is supposed to uphold the imperial creed, and honor the Emperor. You really can't be a chaplain, and follow Chaos at the same time, as the two are incompatable. So those who turned, simply ceased being chaplains. The same is true of the Word Bearers, but they created a new role for the traitor chaplains to follow. So instead of Chaplains, they have Acolytes and Apostles.

TemujinZero
23-12-2010, 14:24
It makes sense that the Chaplains in the other legions would have strongly resisted the heresy. The Word Bearers basically set up the whole belief structure that dominates the Imperium in 40k. If that survived their own heresy it's not surprising that the chaplains did too. They were not established with heretical intent. Well, not that kind of heresy anyway. I guess the chaplains of the other legions were always distinct from those of the word bearers, since at the time they were set up they would have been upholding the then secular Imperial creed, while the Word Bearers chaplains always upheld the creed of Lorgar and Kor Phaeron. It was the lodges that were used to spread the heresy, not the chaplain brotherhoods.

I've always enjoyed the irony that the Imperium ended up dancing to Lorgar's pre-heresy tune, long after he'd abandoned it. I wonder what he makes of it.

malika
23-12-2010, 14:54
I don't think all Legions had their own Chaplains. The Iron Warriors, Sons of Horus and Alpha Legion were known to have Word Bearer Chaplains working in their Legions. Other Legions such as the Emperor's Children and Night Lords seemed to have had their own Chaplains. This might explain a thing or two...

wilsongrahams
23-12-2010, 22:55
The role of a chaplain in heresy times was likely to be different to the role they now serve as. They were not priests back them, but warriors that were in charge of the warriors spiritual being (sanity from stress as marines were too new to know the effects) and also they were upholders of tradition and lore from the homeworld. Eg a Blood Angels Chaplain would have upheld the rites and tribe traditions performed by The Tribe of Pure Blood. The worship the Emperor stuff would have seeped in over time as the ecclesiarchy developed after the heresy.

TemujinZero
24-12-2010, 08:14
I don't think all Legions had their own Chaplains. The Iron Warriors, Sons of Horus and Alpha Legion were known to have Word Bearer Chaplains working in their Legions. Other Legions such as the Emperor's Children and Night Lords seemed to have had their own Chaplains. This might explain a thing or two...

I think all chapters were supposed to have them as a consequence of the Council of Nikaea. Also I'm pretty sure that the Word Bearer chaiplains were not acting in an official capacity as chaplains when they were out sowing the seeds of heresy in the other chapters. Erebus was with the Sons of Horus before the Council of Nikaea. I think the Word Bearer chaplains are a red herring as far as the chaplains in the other chapters go. They were the inspiration, but they never fulfilled the role that the Council of Nikaea called for, because they never accepted the Imperial creed in the first place. The Nikaea chaplains, at least where they were set up according to the mandate, were from the very beginning in opposition to both the Word Bearers' pre-fall and post-fall agendas. It was only well after the heresy that they started to resemble pre-fall Word Bearer chaplains.

LexxBomb
26-12-2010, 12:23
The role of a chaplain in heresy times was likely to be different to the role they now serve as. They were not priests back them, but warriors that were in charge of the warriors spiritual being (sanity from stress as marines were too new to know the effects) and also they were upholders of tradition and lore from the homeworld. Eg a Blood Angels Chaplain would have upheld the rites and tribe traditions performed by The Tribe of Pure Blood. The worship the Emperor stuff would have seeped in over time as the ecclesiarchy developed after the heresy.

So in essence Lord Cypher was The Dark Angels original Chaplain as his role was to maintain the traditions of the Order and Caliban.

Nazguire
27-12-2010, 02:39
So in essence Lord Cypher was The Dark Angels original Chaplain as his role was to maintain the traditions of the Order and Caliban.

In a sense, but the Dark Angels still got their own Chaplains even with a Lord Cypher (see Fallen Angels)

wilsongrahams
28-12-2010, 07:51
The DA HH books are a little off in the timelines due to the psyker presence in their chapter I think, whereas they were suposed to be introduced later by Magnus I believe.

As to Lord Cypher - this is a traditional position, kept by the Lion, whereas Chaplains are an official position, and over time the occupations probably merged with Lord Cypher taking on the position of chief chaplain - all the worship the emperor stuff has rarely been done by the dark angels anyway, and most marine chapters have never done this as they see him as their commander not their god from the times they fought beside him.