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The Inevitable One
23-12-2010, 08:44
After reading a general summary of what the Grey Knights are and do, I had one question spawn in my mind. Possibly a clever one, but then again, it probably might have already been thought up. Anyways, I would like to guide you through what I was thinking.

I read that the Grey Knights were specifically tailored to combat against the Ruinous Powers, but being an all psyker force has come with a disadvantage. Pariahs or Blanks, as I have read, have the ability to shutdown a persons psychic powers. That or bend them and redirect it at the projector. Is it possible that Chaos could create a sort of counter-psyker force and render the Grey Knights useless? A counter to their counter if you will.

I also had some questions about the Pariah gene itself which would in turn probably answer my main question.


How often is a human with Pariah gene born?
If that human has the Pariah gene, can they pass it off to their spawn?
Is it possible to tamper with non-Pariahs, so that they too can have the Pariah gene?


Thank you very much for reading, I look forward to your replies.

Lord Damocles
23-12-2010, 09:56
How often is a human with Pariah gene born?
'This extremely rare defect [Pariah gene] occurs for no known reason in less than one in a billion individuals, and most find them utterly horrifying. Those who have this defect are known by the name of Pariah, or untouchable...'
Codex: Assassins (2nd ed.), pg.20



If that human has the Pariah gene, can they pass it off to their spawn?
Presumably, the gene must be passed on from parent(s) to child.



Is it possible to tamper with non-Pariahs, so that they too can have the Pariah gene?
If the legends mentioned in 'Shadow games' (Codex: Necrons, pg.9) are to be believed, then the gene would have had to have been added to humanity at some stage by the C'tan/Necrons.

Whether you could implant the gene into a non-Pariah, and end up with an individual with warp-dampening abilities... Who knows? According to Inquisitor Eisenhorn, 'Untouchables are rare, and almost impossible to create artificially' ('Xenos' in Eisenhorn Omnibus, pg.61) implying that Pariahs can be 'manufactured', although what this process might actually involve (adding the gene, or 'activating' the gene perhaps?) isn't clear.

Motsognir
23-12-2010, 11:48
I think chaos will have a hard time to do anything with parias or improving them. as a matter of fact they are immun to the warp and this wax immun to chaos.

Toadius80
23-12-2010, 12:05
Pariahs/blanks are the ultimate weapon against the warp, thus there demand by the Inq. Being completely immune to any warp energies etc, often extending effect a few feet, sometimes meters, thus the gods would have a very hard time having a chat to them, let alone recruiting them.
What would be better would be a Grey knight esq force solely consisting of marines with the Pariah gene. Good night demonic invasion or pesky A+ grade mental on the loose possessed by a Deamon prince.

Shamana
23-12-2010, 12:59
They wouldn't be grey knights, grey knights are all psykers.

Blank marines would be extremely rare - after al, the gene is rare in itself, and the chance of a carrier being sufficiently good to meet the SM selection tests and training is... well, let's say it's close to 0 and call it a day. Training them as assassins might be a better option.

abasio
23-12-2010, 13:25
I read that the Grey Knights were specifically tailored to combat against the Ruinous Powers, but being an all psyker force has come with a disadvantage. Pariahs or Blanks, as I have read, have the ability to shutdown a persons psychic powers. That or bend them and redirect it at the projector. Is it possible that Chaos could create a sort of counter-psyker force and render the Grey Knights useless? A counter to their counter if you will.


They'd still be extremely well trained space marines with a mind prepared for chaosy daemon scum tricks. I don't think that pariahs would be an effective counter unless the aforementioned force of all pariah marines was somehow established. Imagine the recruitment nightmare that chapter would have. One in a billion is a pariah & only one in a million is good enough to become a SM right? So one in a trillion could become a pariah marine, good luck finding those needles.

Askil the Undecided
23-12-2010, 13:42
Of course the other problems would be the inability to communicate with a force with no librarians who also cannot use astropaths, the lack of offensive powers the fact they'd all be instinctually revolted by each other and the hazard to warp navigation any force of any real size would cause both for their navigator and other ships in the area.

Also a sufficiently large force could show up as a false positive for a tyranid swarm.

feintstar
23-12-2010, 13:48
Read Nemesis

Can't say any more than that.

Toadius80
23-12-2010, 15:23
Valid point, maybe a ship full of them a bad idea. Though didn't Issenhorn have a fighting force of the buggers?

MarcoSkoll
23-12-2010, 16:25
they'd all be instinctually revolted by each other
I don't know what the canon says on this, but I disagree.
Humans are instinctually revolted by pariahs/untouchables/blanks because of their ability to subconsciously sense the warp and know that there's something wrong with the person in front of them.
However, pariahs, as they actually cause a null in the warp around them would not notice anything out of the ordinary. There's nothing there, just as (to them) there always is - and that's assuming they can even sense the warp at all.

Psykers are more revolted by pariahs than less psychically sensitive humans and pariahs being the least psychically sensitive humans of all would mean their effect on each other would be the least possible.
So I don't think pariahs are revolted by each other. Anyone who has written otherwise probably wasn't thinking it through properly (unless they can offer a better explanation for why they would).

Col. Tartleton
23-12-2010, 17:11
I had written some fluff quite a while back about a chapter of Marines that seek out pariahs using their long reach of influence. About a dozen all told. They're organized as a special sect of Chaplains. The Chapter is very pious and they're considered extremely valuable. One of the chapter's Chief Librarians came up with the idea several thousand years ago (like any good tradition in 40k) in order to improve his order's abilities. In order to purify their souls they train with the Pariahs. It allows them better control of their psychic powers and is indescribably painful (They're Imperial Fist descendants...) The Pariahs are only deployed against Daemonic Incursions and more recently they were used as infiltrators in a confrontation with the Necrons.

The Inevitable One
23-12-2010, 23:15
Read Nemesis

Can't say any more than that.

Although I have not read it, I have read a summary on Spear, which was my source of inspiration. Spear being a Black (Chaos) Pariah Assassin.

Here is where it gets a bit murky though. When reading the summary on Spear, he was going to be transported to a sun in an Sisters of Silence vessel. So there has to be Astropaths aboard to guide the vessel to its destination. But the kicker is, is that the Sisters of Silence are all Blank/Pariah force. It would negate the Astropaths ability to guide the vessel through space. The only explanation for the Astropaths to still guide the ship through the stars is that the Blanks/Pariahs have to choose whose psychic powers should be shutdown. So I don't think that having an all anti-psyker force being transported is a problem.

I can see the problems in finding an all Pariah/Blank army, seeings as they are very few of them around. But that is why I asked about passing the gene off to their spawn. Chaos could possibly capture one, force them to breed, and then gain more Pariahs.

Eumerin
24-12-2010, 00:17
The only explanation for the Astropaths to still guide the ship through the stars is that the Blanks/Pariahs have to choose whose psychic powers should be shutdown.

Not really. The pariah effect only extends a few meters away from the pariah. And it's unlikely that multiple pariahs grouped together create a bigger bubble. So all that you'd need to do is to keep the Navigators and Astropaths in a different room than your pariahs and you'd avoid any potential issues.


As for the likelihood of marines who happen to be pariahs...

The second post provides a quote stating that less than one in a billion humans is a pariah. There are roughly 1000 chapters of marines with roughly 1000 marines in each chapter. That comes out to approximately 1,000,000 marines - assuming that all of the chapters are at full strength. Or in other words, if you took a completely random sample group the size of the current population of Imperial Space Marines, then chances are you still wouldn't find a single pariah mixed in.

Balgora
24-12-2010, 00:22
I think chaos will have a hard time to do anything with pariahs or improving them. as a matter of fact they are immune to the warp and this wax immune to chaos.

This,

Chaos can never use pariahs as a weapon, they are literally the exact opposite :/.

To a daemon it would be like trying to convince a radioactive rock to worship you.

The Grey Knights really are mostly use for chaos incursions, so people who are likely to have access to pariahs, short of some really really complicated renegade imperial guard plot..are not going to end up fighting grey knights :). Not 100% impossible though, just super unlikely and only possibly very loosely to do with chaos.

MagosHereticus
24-12-2010, 03:40
Although I have not read it, I have read a summary on Spear, which was my source of inspiration. Spear being a Black (Chaos) Pariah Assassin.

Here is where it gets a bit murky though. When reading the summary on Spear, he was going to be transported to a sun in an Sisters of Silence vessel. So there has to be Astropaths aboard to guide the vessel to its destination. But the kicker is, is that the Sisters of Silence are all Blank/Pariah force. It would negate the Astropaths ability to guide the vessel through space. The only explanation for the Astropaths to still guide the ship through the stars is that the Blanks/Pariahs have to choose whose psychic powers should be shutdown. So I don't think that having an all anti-psyker force being transported is a problem.

I can see the problems in finding an all Pariah/Blank army, seeings as they are very few of them around. But that is why I asked about passing the gene off to their spawn. Chaos could possibly capture one, force them to breed, and then gain more Pariahs.

the sisters are untouchables not pariahs big difference and astropaths are not navigators, also big difference

pariahs are only able to focus their powers with the aid of special equipment provided by the adeptus mechanicus to the assassin temples


Not really. The pariah effect only extends a few meters away from the pariah. And it's unlikely that multiple pariahs grouped together create a bigger bubble. So all that you'd need to do is to keep the Navigators and Astropaths in a different room than your pariahs and you'd avoid any potential issues.

in 2nd edition assassin codex it talks about how the cumulation of pariahs on earth i think it was was blocking out the astronomicon, the high lords ordered them to all be killed as a consequence but the master of the assassins secreted some of them away to an orphan planet across the other side of the galaxy and founded the Culexus Temple, pariahs are dangerous, every dangerous, they are very different to the sisters of silence who were resistant to the warp, not the antithesis of the warp


As for the likelihood of marines who happen to be pariahs...

The second post provides a quote stating that less than one in a billion humans is a pariah. There are roughly 1000 chapters of marines with roughly 1000 marines in each chapter. That comes out to approximately 1,000,000 marines - assuming that all of the chapters are at full strength. Or in other words, if you took a completely random sample group the size of the current population of Imperial Space Marines, then chances are you still wouldn't find a single pariah mixed in.

even marine chapters who look for pariahs will come up either empty handed or will not hear from their recruiting marines again, i'm pretty certain the Officio Assassinorum and the inquisition seize upon them jealously, as culexus assassins are much much harder to make than any of the other assassins and probably more valuable, they are a ace in the hole against the most dangerous enemies of humanity

Eumerin
24-12-2010, 05:11
even marine chapters who look for pariahs will come up either empty handed or will not hear from their recruiting marines again, i'm pretty certain the Officio Assassinorum and the inquisition seize upon them jealously, as culexus assassins are much much harder to make than any of the other assassins and probably more valuable, they are a ace in the hole against the most dangerous enemies of humanity

And yet there are still quite a few of them running around who aren't assassins. Sandy Mitchell has probably created the most famous pariah, but there are still plenty of others. iirc, one of the Dark Heresy expansions gives rules for creating such a character as a member of an inquisitorial group.

Yes, the Culexus Temple will no doubt want to get their hands on them, but the Imperium is a very big place and even with as few as there are the Temple is only going to be able to get its hands on a small fraction of them. If another Imperial organization discretely goes searching for some, then they'll probably manage to locate at least one or two - though it might very well take a century of looking given how rare they are...

The Inevitable One
24-12-2010, 06:33
the sisters are untouchables not pariahs big difference and astropaths are not navigators, also big difference

Fair enough, there's a difference. From what I read, Pariahs and Blanks are similar to each other, both being counter-psykers. And as for the Astropath thing, I misinterpreted what Askil said about them.

Vaulkhar
24-12-2010, 07:22
My understanding was that the only difference between a blank and a pariah was one of degree...and on the subject of Spear's disposal, I got the impression that the plan was 'put genetic abomination on ship, point ship at local sun, open engines to maximum, beg the Omnissiah's forgiveness for the destruction of the machine spirits and head down the pub for a beer'*. No warp travel involved and hence no Navigator needed.

*: Giving the crew time and opportunity to get off was, of course, very optional.

MagosHereticus
24-12-2010, 08:18
Fair enough, there's a difference. From what I read, Pariahs and Blanks are similar to each other, both being counter-psykers. And as for the Astropath thing, I misinterpreted what Askil said about them.

the terminology is not rigorous so it's easy to get confused in relation to psykers, blanks, pariahs, untouchables, no biggy, as is often the case in 40k, one author sets a convention and the next author ignores it

and astropath is a commonly confused with navigator (as astrotelemetry is a common scifi buzzword, navigator as a title is just a reference to dune) but astropath stands for astro-telepath



My understanding was that the only difference between a blank and a pariah was one of degree...and on the subject of Spear's disposal, I got the impression that the plan was 'put genetic abomination on ship, point ship at local sun, open engines to maximum, beg the Omnissiah's forgiveness for the destruction of the machine spirits and head down the pub for a beer'*. No warp travel involved and hence no Navigator needed.

*: Giving the crew time and opportunity to get off was, of course, very optional.
the difference between a planet and a moon is one of degree as well



And yet there are still quite a few of them running around who aren't assassins. Sandy Mitchell has probably created the most famous pariah, but there are still plenty of others. iirc, one of the Dark Heresy expansions gives rules for creating such a character as a member of an inquisitorial group.

Yes, the Culexus Temple will no doubt want to get their hands on them, but the Imperium is a very big place and even with as few as there are the Temple is only going to be able to get its hands on a small fraction of them. If another Imperial organization discretely goes searching for some, then they'll probably manage to locate at least one or two - though it might very well take a century of looking given how rare they are...

full on pariahs? omega level negative psykers? i guess if we have a million alpha levels running around cheapening the ranks of the assignment then we can have a million pariahs too, screw detail or degree

Archaon
25-12-2010, 14:22
Grey Knights fighting Pariahs isn't that big of a deal.. sure, they nullify any psychic powers the Grey Knight has but those usually give GK an edge over Demons.

Even with that ability gone they are still elite Space Marines.. no Pariah would survive a Nemesis blade through its skull (even if non-powered) or a bolter round to the chest.

MagosHereticus
25-12-2010, 14:28
Grey Knights fighting Pariahs isn't that big of a deal.. sure, they nullify any psychic powers the Grey Knight has but those usually give GK an edge over Demons.

Even with that ability gone they are still elite Space Marines.. no Pariah would survive a Nemesis blade through its skull (even if non-powered) or a bolter round to the chest.

a pariah (not just a regular run of the mill negativepsyker) could kill or severely incapacitate a grey knight through proximity alone, a space marine being a space marine however, i doubt he would just roll over (maybe hurl his halberd through the chest of the pariah with his last ounce of strength?)

Eumerin
26-12-2010, 08:04
full on pariahs? omega level negative psykers? i guess if we have a million alpha levels running around cheapening the ranks of the assignment then we can have a million pariahs too, screw detail or degree

Apparently you've lost your sense of scale.

The galaxy is a big place. It's a REALLY big place. Think of all of the planets out there that humanity has settled. How many of them have over a million citizens? How many of them have over a billion (btw, the present-day Earth has a few billion)? How many have over a trillion? If you figure that roughly one in a billion humans is a pariah (yes, I know the quoted number is actually "less", but it doesn't say how much less), then a planet with a trillion residents on average has one thousand pariahs scattered across it.

Those numbers add up.

So yeah, there are a lot of them scattered across the Imperium, and the Imperial authorities only get tiny handful of them.


a pariah (not just a regular run of the mill negativepsyker) could kill or severely incapacitate a grey knight through proximity alone, a space marine being a space marine however, i doubt he would just roll over (maybe hurl his halberd through the chest of the pariah with his last ounce of strength?)

Er... he'd just shoot the Pariah. Pariahs are proximity based. There's nothing preventing a marine from picking the Pariah off at range. And given the effect that Pariahs have on psykers, the Grey Knight WILL sense the Pariah's presence before the Pariah can use its abilities against the squad of Grey Knights.

Motsognir
27-12-2010, 12:27
another matter against an all paria sm capter: aren't sm indoctrinated, mindwiped and otherwise modified? at least some of it (all this messing around with the brain) should be done with the help of the warp and so not be possible on parias.

in the ravenor omnibus (or eisenhorn triologie) an untouchable had an "blocker" with which he could shut down his anti Psy aura. In the Codex DJ there is the null-rod, an device that stops psy effects affecting the squad bearing it. incorporate it into an armour and you are done...

MagosHereticus
28-12-2010, 07:11
Er... he'd just shoot the Pariah. Pariahs are proximity based. There's nothing preventing a marine from picking the Pariah off at range. And given the effect that Pariahs have on psykers, the Grey Knight WILL sense the Pariah's presence before the Pariah can use its abilities against the squad of Grey Knights.

i'm not particularly inclined to dive into fanboy ******y and versus arguments

you really have nothing to judge how easily a pariahs abilities can be negated nor do you even know how extensive or potent those abilities are, and only a culexus's abilities are consciously controlled and directed because of their equiptment, an unmodified pariah's abilities are passive

LexxBomb
28-12-2010, 16:09
im fairly sure the group of nulls that Eseinhorn had could control their powers to a degree through training and are the best gauge we have for their field effectiveness.