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Lorgar
26-12-2010, 02:49
Let's say the whole Imperium goes to hell, being attacked from every possible way by untold enemies. Which loyal chapter do you think would be the last to fall and why?

It's next to impossible to answer, I know. Just give it your best shot. I'll try to think of one myself and get back here later.

Hellebore
26-12-2010, 03:02
Probably the Black Templars simply because they are larger and more spread out than any other chapter.

Hellebore

TheLaughingGod
26-12-2010, 03:24
Probably the Black Templars simply because they are larger and more spread out than any other chapter.

Hellebore

Or the Ultramarines because they're conveniently on the other side of the Galaxy.

TheRedAngel
26-12-2010, 07:20
Templars should be right on the money, being the biggest chapter currently.

My other guess would be the Grey Knights (if you count them as a 'normal' SM chapter) due to their homebase so close to terra, probably the last place to fall.

dragonet111
26-12-2010, 08:06
My problem with the Black Templar is that they are so utterly zealous and fanatical that if it is indeed the last stand of the Imperium they will probably fight every battles with even more fury and zeal, trying agaisnt all odds to win.

I vote for the Raven Guard because they will wage an everlasting guerilla.

The Inevitable One
26-12-2010, 08:07
Templars should be right on the money, being the biggest chapter currently.

My other guess would be the Grey Knights (if you count them as a 'normal' SM chapter) due to their homebase so close to terra, probably the last place to fall.

I agree with what Hellebore and TheRedAngel. Black Templars are by far the largest and although they are spread out, that gives them the ability to recruit people from hundreds, if not thousands of planets.

Although the Black Templars are currently stated as being the largest, the Space Wolves may also be the same in size, if not, larger than the Black Templars. This is possibly due to how their Chapter adheres to the Codex Astartes. Some are estimating that each Wolf Lord could command anywhere between one hundred and twenty to over a thousand. And that is only one Wolf Lord. There are twelve Wolf Lords. I don't know if this is true but this is what I have heard.

If not, then I am going to say that the Grey Knights are second in terms of numbers, which ranges around ~3000. Not only that but they are the most qualified, achieving the six hundred and sixty six tests that would quell most other Space Marines.

So, Black Templars would be the last to die, followed by the Space Wolves if rumors are true, then the Grey Knights. That is of course, if they are sensible in their decisions. Numbers alone do not determine who will be last, but also tactics and skill.

Lupe
26-12-2010, 08:27
The Black Templars would suffer massive losses in the first engagements due to their "Chaaaaarge!" approach. Then, the survivors would "Chaaaaarge!" again, to avenge the brethren who had just died in the previous charge.

Flawed
26-12-2010, 09:05
I think if things ever start to go badly enough for the Imperium that the codex number limitations will be lifted and we'll see chapters increase back to Legion strength. So I'd suggest chapters closest to where the geneseed banks are kept will have the advantage in growth and thus survivability.

Simo429
26-12-2010, 09:52
Being a big chapter wont keep you safe if everything came at the imperium. Probably the last to fall would be the Fists because I would assume that if everything were to be heading for Terra so would the Fists to take up their place on the battlements.

Hellebore
26-12-2010, 10:21
The biggest advantage the BTs have is that they are spread across the entire Imperium which means there is a lower % chance that any one BT is attacked. This will increase their life expetency.

As they are also the largest chapter with the widest recruitment range it will be far harder to kill the entire chapter. Most other chapters have a single planet to recruit from and aren't as large.

Hellebore

Polaria
26-12-2010, 10:48
Depends a lot on how everything exactly "goes to hell"...

My list of Last Ones are:

Imperial Fists = Probably the last chapter guarding the gates of Imperial Palace. If everything else falls before Terra does, Imperial Fists will be last to go before it comes to Custodes.

Death Spectres = These guys are situated as far as possible from Terra and ain't coming back. If anything is spared of the galaxy-wide cataclysm, its them.

Raven Guards = They don't do "last stands", "final assaults" and other such things. They cut you, run away to hide and come back to cut you again hundred years later.

SeaSwift
26-12-2010, 11:22
Alpha Legion - if all goes to hell, they're on the devil's side. And they're spread everywhere - nobody would know if all of them were dead or not. :shifty:

mob16151
26-12-2010, 12:36
Alpha Legion - if all goes to hell, they're on the devil's side. And they're spread everywhere - nobody would know if all of them were dead or not. :shifty:

The OP is obviously an Alpha Legion sleeper agent.

Polaria
26-12-2010, 13:27
The OP is obviously an Alpha Legion sleeper agent.

Practically admitting it like that doesn't really qualify one as a sleeper agent anymore :D

ChaosTicket
26-12-2010, 14:20
The Black templars size is an asset only because they have far more widespread recruiting compared to other chapters. I wonder if the chapter poach other chapters' recruits?

But their overall battle strategy is mainly what the original legions did, forward assaults and marine-wave tactics.
-------------------------------------
Raven guard have a pretty high chance as their are guerilla specialists, White Scars also as they are hit & run masters. The chapters that conserve their soldiers more are the most sucessful simply because they dont have to wait 5-500 years to replace each one.

Cythus
26-12-2010, 14:34
I'd have to go with the Imperial Fists because if the Imperium begins to crumble then the last system to go will be the Sol system and you can bet that when it looks like the end is coming, the Imperial Fists will be lining the palace battlements.

ChaosTicket
26-12-2010, 14:57
That is assuming that the enemies dont know that Terra is the home of the Emperor.

Lord_Crull
26-12-2010, 15:37
Or the Ultramarines because they're conveniently on the other side of the Galaxy.

Nah, the Ultramarines would probably be one of the most threatened chapters since the Tyranids are coming in more and more on the Eastern Fringe.

Nasha
26-12-2010, 18:34
ok so while the BTs would be the last to fall to chaos i believe they would be the first to be anhilated...they would be in a fervor to rend and kill the enemies of the emperor and would suffer hug losses during the engagements due to their...lets say unsubtle approach to things.
The space wolves would be bolstered by leman Russ (remember his speech about the Wolf time) so would be spread far trying to better each other in their sagas.
The Blood Angels would be striking like a hammer and crushing the enemy before they had a chance to react, although they would suffer the same as the Templars due to the Thirst.
The Raven Guard are one of the pansy chapters, "oooh i say old boy lets jump in, cut his achilles and then watch him flop about before we finish him off in say 20 minutes", so they would last alot longer than most, aside from perhaps the White Scars due to the lightning fast bike assaults.
Dark Angels is a funny one as they arent really loyal in the first place in my eyes, they spend more time attempting to capture the fallen instead of fighting the emperors foes.
The ultramarines would probably last the longest cause whenever theres a big scrap involving chaos, Roubutes boys are the other side of the galaxy at the time...poofs.
But the Legion of The Damned would be the ones that outlived everyone...they are the epitome of a true space marine IMO, they rule in the sort of attacks that Space Marines were designed for, not wars of Attrition but the jump in kill all and bugger off again sort of fight

kerby

Lord_Crull
26-12-2010, 18:37
The ultramarines would probably last the longest cause whenever theres a big scrap involving chaos, Roubutes boys are the other side of the galaxy at the time...poofs.


Actually no. The Ultramarines keep a company permenantly stationed at the Eye of Terror.

Index Astartes: Humanity's Shield.


Ten thousand years ago. in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy, Roboute Guilliman, the Primarch of the Ultramarines, decreed that his chapter would stand ready to oppose the Traitors that fled to the Eye of Terror should they ever return to plague the Imperium. The Ultramarines took no part in the Battte of the Emperor's Palace, as they were fighting half a galaxy away, and Guilliman was determined that his chapter would never find itself unable to respond to such a threat again.

The solution was to ensure a continuous presence in the vicinity of the Eye of Terror, by maintaining an honour guard made up of individual squads from different companies. In time, the chapter's commitments across the Imperium necessitated that the other Primogenitor chapters - the second founding successors of the Ultramarines, should also provide squads.

For the last ten thousand years this guard has maintained a presence at the Cadian Gate, standing firm alongside the other chapters stationed there to challenge any Black Crusade that threatens Cadia's defences. At the outset of the 13th Black Crusade, the force is comprised almost entirely of Ultramarines squads, alongside which stand a number of detachments from the chapter's successors. The honour guard has already seen action in a number of engagements, notably the Defence of Narsine and the Sarlax Reprisals, lending the legendary courage and honour of the Ultramarines and their kin to the defence of the Cadia Gate.

genestealer_baldric
26-12-2010, 20:57
space wolves beacuse even at the great chuck out period in the sky they will bring back the 13th legion and russ and go straight for the invaders neck, after all in prospero burns horus says they are only one of 2 legions that could of threatened him, and to make the big Horus worried he must know somthing we dont :)

GoblinDan
26-12-2010, 21:27
I would say maybe the Space Wolves. They are more like a legion still and the fact the Fang is supposed to be one of the best defended fortresses after Terra.

But like other people have said, any Chapter which fell back to reinforce Terra as they would have the defenses and Adeptus Custodes to back them up.

Personally I can't see it being the Black Templar's. Despite their huge numbers, I think they would go out In a blaze of glory if things started to get that dire rather than dwindle away.

Lord_Crull
26-12-2010, 21:42
space wolves beacuse even at the great chuck out period in the sky they will bring back the 13th legion and russ and go straight for the invaders neck, after all in prospero burns horus says they are only one of 2 legions that could of threatened him, and to make the big Horus worried he must know somthing we dont :)

That was before Prospero. In Visions of Darkness Horus actually regardes the Wolves as the least of his concerns when the Dark Angels, the Ultramarines and the Wolves approach.

Notanoob
26-12-2010, 22:35
Everyone's saying that the Fists and such would be the last to go, but if everything really was going to hell, then it'd be those guys who get screwed first, buy the escaping Void Dragon. He'd turn the entirety of Mars against them and there's no way Terra would make it under that kind of pressure. It'd be destroyed before the Fists could get there, and they'd then walk right into a huge trap, just like the GK's (they can't beat titan legions!) would have.

Someone mentioned the Death Specters, but being that far out means that they'd probably be under a huge assault by agitated chaos xenos or something of that nature, they'd have no backup or anything and I doubt they'd make it.

The Black Templars, being crusading all the time, would be right in front of any insane enemy assault, and we all know they'd charge into CC with Khorne if he showed is cowardly hide! Safe to say even their numbers wouldn't help.

The Space Wolves would probably come home to find the Fang consumed by a giant Tyranid-esque sea monster, and their whole honor/saga thing would see them pull something stupid. 13th company and Russ would help, but Russ would probably charge into CC against hopeless odds too.

Ultramarines-they'd die due to fan's hatred finally boiling over into an enormous bloodthirster who'd wipe out the chapter to the man and use Calgar's corpse as a boot knife to murder any Ultra-humping chapters out there.

Blood Angles are screwed as is, if things got worse they'd probably all go nutz and zerg rush Khorne's army, only to be surrounded by Tyranids when they're done. The fact that said invasion is imminent means that they'd be gone quick too.

Dark Angles have the advantage of being a pseudo-legion, having a planet sized space fortress and a full company of Terminators. So long as they don't hear about any Fallen (how could they? The warp/Tyranid shadow in the warp would destroy and possibility of communication), they wouldn't act dumb and probably hold out longest of Codex adherent chapters.

The final survivors though, would be the Raven Guard (with Corax's return?), White Scars, any other guerrilla-war loving chapters and maybe the Salamanders but only if they're Primarch shows up too.

Kudzu
27-12-2010, 00:24
Or the Ultramarines because they're conveniently on the other side of the Galaxy.

I would agree to this, but when they do get involved in big battles they lose-- so it's even odds as to if they get wiped out quickly or are off picking daisies out in left field somewhere.

Fallen DA
27-12-2010, 00:31
I'd say the Dark Angels. Mobility has to be taken into account and having a mobile Monestary would give them a Tactical advantage over some other Chapters.[/I]

Lord_Crull
27-12-2010, 00:52
I would agree to this, but when they do get involved in big battles they lose-- so it's even odds as to if they get wiped out quickly or are off picking daisies out in left field somewhere.

Like what battles? Macragge was a victory. Calth was a victory. Ichar IV was a victory. Commrath was a victory. Black Reach was a victory. Ziest was a victory. The Balur Crusade was a victory. Cornith was a victory........

massey
27-12-2010, 02:06
The Imperium is being attacked on all sides by untold enemies. And it has gone to hell. ;) Yet marine chapters aren't dropping like flies. For that to happen you'd have to have some big Ragnarok/end of the world scenario, and who survives (or is the last to fall) depends entirely on the setup of that scenario.

The BIG Tyranid fleet finally gets here? Then the Ultramarines are probably the first to fall, overwhelmed by bajillions of bugs. Alternatively, they could be the last holdouts, for some reason being elsewhere when everything goes down, so they can use their expertise to stop the invaders in mankind's darkest hour.

Final Black Crusade, with Primarchs and everything, come to annihilate the Imperium once and for all? Guys like the Raven Guard and White Scars aren't important in that scenario. It's not their story. Perhaps the Blood Angels would be last then, getting their revenge with the Sanguinor coming in at the end to stick his foot right up Horus' butt crack.

Massive invasion of the Tau? Heh heh, ah, sorry, couldn't help myself. That was funny.

Thematically, the Dark Angels should be the last survivors. They are the first legion, they should also be the last. The stain on their honor can't be lifted until everything has come to an end. The Space Wolves, the Ultramarines, the Blood Angels, all of them are in good standing with the Emperor. They can die in glorious battle, their souls at peace. The Dark Angels have to see it through to the end. What it shouldn't be is some no-name jackass chapter on Lexicanium. "The Silver Templars? Who the hell are they? What do you mean they protect the Imperium from invasion by the Glarberhaber race of the 5th dimension? That's lame!"

Ultrasmurf
27-12-2010, 02:29
Black templers- In my opinion the Black templers would be one of the first to go High marshell Helbrecht would declare a crusade against everything and the Black templers would be slowly wilded down until only a few heroes of the imperium remained then they'd die to.

Blood Angels- Would fight valiantly but they would be wiped out when they are attacked by the Tendril of hive fleet Leviathan and the daemon hordes of Ka'banda they would kill many but more and more Blood angels would fall to the red thirst and the Black rage and it would end in one final battle were Ka'banda would be defeated but Commander Dante would fall.

Dark angels- Will last for a long time but they wont be able to find new recruits since all the human worlds will be destroyed.

Ultramarines- they will do what the blood angels did and ask support from all of their successors over 600 successor space marine chapters will help the Ultramarines fight for Ultramar and there is also the Ultramar imperial guard and PDF forces which number in the millions They have food more space marine ships and more supplies then most space marine worlds.

Lord_Crull
27-12-2010, 02:40
Ultramarines- they will do what the blood angels did and ask support from all of their successors over 600 successor space marine chapters will help the Ultramarines fight for Ultramar and there is also the Ultramar imperial guard and PDF forces which number in the millions They have food more space marine ships and more supplies then most space marine worlds.

No sucessors came to help the Ultramarines when Macragge itself was threatened by the tyranids. No sucessors came when M'kar's forces attacked. (It was the Raven Guard who actually came to help)

Kudzu
27-12-2010, 04:41
Macragge was a victory..

As an emissary of the Hive Mind, if you are calling this a victory then I will have to declare that your 1st company tastes delicious. Please make more so that when something other than a scouting force arrives they can have a tasty treat too.

genestealer_baldric
27-12-2010, 06:20
Dark Angles have the advantage of being a pseudo-legion, having a planet sized space fortress and a full company of Terminators. So long as they don't hear about any Fallen (how could they? The warp/Tyranid shadow in the warp would destroy and possibility of communication), they wouldn't act dumb and probably hold out longest of Codex adherent chapters.


most chapters have a terminator 1st company

and whos to say at the end of the universe its not the emperor on a rampage for being stuck on a comode for so many years just fighting like a madman everything he meets including loyal legions

Lord_Crull
27-12-2010, 13:07
As an emissary of the Hive Mind, if you are calling this a victory then I will have to declare that your 1st company tastes delicious. Please make more so that when something other than a scouting force arrives they can have a tasty treat too.

Since when was Hive Fleet Behemoth a scouting force? Said ''scouting force'' was also annhilated.

And ''my First Company''? I don't have a First Company. I'm not an Ultramarine. I'm a gamer.

Bonzai
27-12-2010, 16:09
I would have to say that it would be the Ultramarines. I'm no fan boy, don't get me wrong. However if the imperium goes to hell, the celestial beacon goes out, and the Emperor dies, rest assured the Ultramar system and a decent chunk of the Eastern quadrant will be secure. Of all the chapters, they are the best at logistics and infastructure. They will keep the cogs of industry running, and who knows? Without having to constantly supply the Imperium, they could devote their resources to themselves. What could the Ultra Marines do with that? Heck, they would suddenly have double the Gene Seed at their disposal. If they wanted to adhere to the Codex Astartes, they could continue to create "Vassal" Chapters, Ultra Marines in all but name, that are in charge of protectorate systems.

Most other chapters would be on their own. The ultramarines would have an entire system at their disposal, with a well armed, well trained human auxillary. Within a reasonable warp travel distance, I image they will have a thriving empire under their control.

Sure, there are plenty of threats in the Eastern Quadrant. Tyrannid Hive Fleets, Tau expansion, Orks, Craft World Iyandan, the Maelstrom, etc... But without centralized control, my money would be that the biggest bastion of humanity would become Ultramar and it's surrounding territories.

Kudzu
27-12-2010, 23:09
Since when was Hive Fleet Behemoth a scouting force? Said ''scouting force'' was also annhilated.


Since all of the current hive fleets are just the vanguard/scouts for the main 'Nid invasion force that hasn't awoken yet and entered the galaxy. Besides that, Behemoth wasn't annihilated-- it was broken off into splinter fleets that are now expanding exponentially.

spetswalshe
28-12-2010, 00:00
space wolves beacuse even at the great chuck out period in the sky they will bring back the 13th legion and russ and go straight for the invaders neck, after all in prospero burns horus says they are only one of 2 legions that could of threatened him, and to make the big Horus worried he must know somthing we dont :)

Bear in mind of course that things did change a little in the following 10,000 years. Making decisions about a Chapter based on what they were like during the Heresy is like asking the Dark Angels over for a cup of tea and expecting them to turn up wearing black and not preoccupied with anything heretical.

I would suggest the Raven Guard, as they're the only ones likely to think of the long game (retreating and fighting a guerilla war, no doubt accounting for more enemy casualties over time than those chapters that use their decades of training and genetic enhancement to act like Ogryns and charge a vastly superior enemy), or the Fists because they'll likely head for Terra at the first sign of trouble and are very good at playing King of the Castle. But in reality, those tactics are not limited to those chapters, in much the same way braiding your hair is not a gimmick copyrighted by the Space Wolves.

I suppose you could rule out certain Chapters, though. The Black Templars (and Flesh Tearers, and possibly Wolves or Blood Angels) are too aggressive to last very long; the Salamanders (possibly Wolves) will likely get killed refusing to leave civilians behind; the Dark Angels' obsession with the Fallen might keep them out of trouble or send them headlong into the thick of it; the White Scars will inevitably run out of petrol.


As an emissary of the Hive Mind, if you are calling this a victory then I will have to declare that your 1st company tastes delicious. Please make more so that when something other than a scouting force arrives they can have a tasty treat too.

Our 1st Company were far from our tastiest soldiers. Polls have shown that the 10th Company, lightly seasoned with geneseed and encased in soft carapace, are in fact the most tender Ultramarines yet. Once your main party arrives they shall be served as entrées. Please note the rumour that the 10th Company have been infected with an horrific toxin intended to spread throughout the Tyranid biofleet and cripple them without a shot being fired is entirely false. Bon appetit, you filthy tentaclebeasts.

Lord_Crull
28-12-2010, 00:26
Since all of the current hive fleets are just the vanguard/scouts for the main 'Nid invasion force that hasn't awoken yet and entered the galaxy.

No, that's speculation, with no proof. Even the codices are vague beyond ''The Tyranids are scary''.


Besides that, Behemoth wasn't annihilated-- it was broken off into splinter fleets that are now expanding exponentially.

No, that's Kraken, Behemoth was almost annhilated at Macragge. (with some minor clean up work after it by the Blood Angels). Even the 5th Edition Tyranid codex (which rewrote much of the earlier Tyranid fluff to make it more Pro-Tyranid) acknowledges that the entire space fleet was lost with only a few creatures remaining on Ultramar.)

madprophet
28-12-2010, 02:44
The Rainbow Warriors!!!! Because they would hide behind the Crimson Fists and would be involved in a rearguard action FOR THE EMPEROR!!:evilgrin:

Besides, whoever was beating the snot out of the Imperium wouldn't believe an Astartes Chapter would have such a lame name and would let them go.:rolleyes:

Sorry, couldn't resist!:D

In all seriousness, the Ultramarines simply because they have the thickest Plot Armor and a stable redoubt that other chapters lack.

massey
28-12-2010, 08:15
The Rainbow Warriors!!!! Because they would hide behind the Crimson Fists and would be involved in a rearguard action FOR THE EMPEROR!!:evilgrin:

Besides, whoever was beating the snot out of the Imperium wouldn't believe an Astartes Chapter would have such a lame name and would let them go.:rolleyes:

Sorry, couldn't resist!:D

In all seriousness, the Ultramarines simply because they have the thickest Plot Armor and a stable redoubt that other chapters lack.

The favored tactic of the Rainbow Warriors is to slip around behind the enemy and engage him from the rear.

Polaria
28-12-2010, 08:58
The favored tactic of the Rainbow Warriors is to slip around behind the enemy and engage him from the rear.

You are thinking of a wrong kind of Rainbow Warriors. The Rainbow Warriors Space Marine chapter is one of the very oldest ones (they appeared in WH40K:RT in 1989) and the names was purely a tribute to the Green Peace ship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Warrior_(1955)). The "omg, its a female marine!" -picture (its really Adepta Sororitas) in the same book where a female in power armor is shooting a bolter at a Space Marine is a tribute to the sinking of the ship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior)... The marine being shot down is Rainbow Warrior and the Sororitas gunning him down is covered in fleur-de-lis symbols (which are very prominent in French heraldry).

Lord of Divine Slaughter
28-12-2010, 09:28
Yup, people seem to forget that this game of ultra machismo and really big guns was created by a bunch of hippies smoking weed at an old farm :p

Polaria
28-12-2010, 09:34
Yup, people seem to forget that this game of ultra machismo and really big guns was created by a bunch of hippies smoking weed at an old farm :p

Bunch of biking hippies to be more exact, but hippies still ;)

Jaraknarn
28-12-2010, 14:34
That is assuming that the enemies dont know that Terra is the home of the Emperor.

Mighty Fearsome Galaxy Destroyer : You! Defiant Space Marine! Tell me where this Emprah of yours is so that i may go destroy him and be done with you!

Defiant Space Marine : Never!

Mighty Fearsome Galaxy Destroyer : Oh drat! Without that knowledge this war is unwinable! How will we ever find him if there is no massive psychic beacon broadcasting his whereabouts? How will we ever follow the bread crumb trail to his hideout without system spanning covoys of high level psykers on route to be sacrificed to him?? How could we ever find him without stumbling across any slightly informed citizen of Imperium?

In all seriousness though, its definately not the fists or any chapter that would flock to Terra. Any enemy general or leader worth his salt would know that it would be well worth throwing everything he had at Terra and the Emperor. It would be the most explicit example of cutting the off the snake. Imperial guard completely demoralised. Space marines having mental breakdowns. Every single sanctioned psyker losing his mind to chaos. And no long distance warp travel without the Astronomicon. Plus not to mention if theiir facing deamons without any 'faith' in the Emprah they'd have no protection.

Guerilla fighting, would last for a time, but the ones that would probably last the longest are the chapters that are borderline loyal.

Lord_Crull
28-12-2010, 14:40
In all seriousness though, its definately not the fists or any chapter that would flock to Terra. Any enemy general or leader worth his salt would know that it would be well worth throwing everything he had at Terra and the Emperor. It would be the most explicit example of cutting the off the snake. Imperial guard completely demoralised. Space marines having mental breakdowns. Every single sanctioned psyker losing his mind to chaos. And no long distance warp travel without the Astronomicon. Plus not to mention if theiir facing deamons without any 'faith' in the Emprah they'd have no protection.


Well you would have to go through the rest of the Imperium to get to Terra. And Terra itself is heavily defended.

But yeah, if you could do that it would work.

Kudzu
28-12-2010, 15:35
Our 1st Company were far from our tastiest soldiers. Polls have shown that the 10th Company, lightly seasoned with geneseed and encased in soft carapace, are in fact the most tender Ultramarines yet. Once your main party arrives they shall be served as entrées. Please note the rumour that the 10th Company have been infected with an horrific toxin intended to spread throughout the Tyranid biofleet and cripple them without a shot being fired is entirely false. Bon appetit, you filthy tentaclebeasts.

Deus ex machina me once, shame on you. Deus ex machina me twice... and you're a writer for the Black Library! :D




No, that's speculation, with no proof. Even the codices are vague beyond ''The Tyranids are scary''.
Page 7 of the new Tyranid codex under the heading of "The Great Devourer" begs to differ, since I was paraphrasing from it.


As to the current topic of killing the Emporer, is the theory that if he dies he will be reborn whole and healthy still floating around? Killing him might be a huge favor.

Lord_Crull
28-12-2010, 15:53
Page 7 of the new Tyranid codex under the heading of "The Great Devourer" begs to differ, since I was paraphrasing from it.


No, that's quite vague actually. As I said, it's not much beyond ''Tyranids are scary''. The closest you might have is ''vanguard elements'' but that could mean any number of things.

Kudzu
28-12-2010, 16:07
No, that's quite vague actually. As I said, it's not much beyond ''Tyranids are scary''. The closest you might have is ''vanguard elements'' but that could mean any number of things.

"With every passing year, the tendrils of the Hive Fleets push deeper into populated space whilst yet others approach from the intergalactic void, their vanguard elements just now beginning to penetrate the galaxy. So vast are the tendrils of the Hive Fleets that their trailing edges still slumber... Only now are the inhabitants of the galaxy realizing the scale of the threat they face".

Yeah, really vague and sounds like the Hive Fleets are very tiny and nonthreatening. Anytime I see the word vast I think small. :rolleyes:

Lord_Crull
28-12-2010, 16:09
"With every passing year, the tendrils of the Hive Fleets push deeper into populated space whilst yet others approach from the intergalactic void, their vanguard elements just now beginning to penetrate the galaxy. So vast are the tendrils of the Hive Fleets that their trailing edges still slumber... Only now are the inhabitants of the galaxy realizing the scale of the threat they face".

Yeah, really vague and sounds like the Hive Fleets are very tiny and nonthreatening. Anytime I see the word vast I think small. :rolleyes:

I never said they sounded nonthreatening. Don't put words in my mouth.

The thing about vanguard elements refers to some tendrils of the Hive Fleets, others are deep into populated space. You can't really saw that Behemoth was a ''scout fleet'' when the description for the hive fleets is vague at best as to their exact timetable.

spetswalshe
28-12-2010, 17:53
The favored tactic of the Rainbow Warriors is to slip around behind the enemy and engage him from the rear.

They have also been known to supply the occasional full frontal.

Rainbow Warriors; a very specific type of pirate.

Jaraknarn
28-12-2010, 18:00
It all basically depends on what kind of end game scenario were looking at really.
If its like a slow methodical march of the Necrons maybe the outliers and diffuse chapters are the last to go.
But if its something like a swift horde of Tyranids throwing bodies against barricades then probably the more centralised defensive chapters last the longest.

Bonzai
28-12-2010, 22:07
I look at it like this... What's the most sure fire way of destroying the imperium? Have the Emperor die. Without him, the beacon goes out, and there is no covering that up. Humanity becomes isolated, shaken in their faith, and begins to fall to infighting.

Terra? Guess what Abbadon and a large chunk of renegades #1 target is? Color the Solar Sector gone. It will then fall to the strongest, most organized chapters to put the pieces back together and salvage what they can. Sure, the Space Wolves will rule their subsector, but they are just as likely to build a tavern than a munitions plant. The Ultramarines are the most likely to keep the war machine rolling, planets in line, and the ideals of the Imperium alive.

Son of Morkai
29-12-2010, 18:44
I strongly disagree with those of you thinking the Templars will be the first to fall. The Imperium is beset on all sides. The end is here. The Black Templars are throwing themselves at everything in one continual crusade of hate and rage and stupidity. And yet they are still here. Hmmm. They really suck at this dying pointlessly thing many of you believe in. Or at least they can produce new warriors fast enough to cover the losses.

It seems that their huge supply of recruiting worlds and decentralized geneseed storage is a huge boon to Marine creation. While other chapters could abandon tradition like the Scythes did and recruit from other worlds, they can't produce geneseed out of nowhere. Tithes could be reissued to their chapters, the AdMech could use the meatslave method to grow additional implants faster, but those resources are located far from most of the chapters that would need them. We have seen how far such measures can go through the Scythes of the Emperor and the Astral Claws/Tiger Claws, but chapters out in the middle of nowhere will not be able to get them in time, if the High Lords even think it worthwhile to try to supply "doomed" chapters.

That taken into account, I feel that the chapters that focus on the defense of Terra aren't in quite as bad a position as it seems. As long as they can keep control of the Segmentum Solar, there is a huge recruiting pool and massive resources to keep them operational - if they abandon their traditions. I suspect that the original chapters probably have the highest chance of rediscovering the pre-heresy method of marine creation, which took a far shorter time. But... they would still die. Other chapters with their own empires, like the Ultramarines, would then be targeted as the last bastions of humanity. Again, while they could last for a while, they would go down eventually.

While the Raven Guard are a post-codex chapter and considered by many here to be the great survivors, the cockroaches of the Adeptus Astartes, able to adapt to changing circumstances, they too would die. They will not make the same mistakes, throwing all of their troops into one glorious battle. Undoubtedly, they will not store all of their geneseed in a single metal vault in the center of a single fortress, just in case. And while they may not have the research into the creating of the weregeld anymore, they probably have records of pre-heresy Marine creation techniques. Just in case. BUT, I feel that they would be too afraid of their own past to use those methods when it comes to making new marines. Again, just in case. They may dabble, but it will come too little, too late. Just personal beliefs there, but meh. No matter how things turn out for the Raven Guard, I think the end is clear. While individuals or strike teams may fight the good fight long past the death of the Imperium, as a chapter, they would be dead. Not beyond rebirth, but dead for the present. They are not the Alpha Legion - they do not operate on a completely decentralized command structure.

As for the last... I say... Blood Angels or Dark Angels.

Both have shown a willingness to go beyond the Codex when necessary, from the BAs taking recruits from their successor chapters to the DAs being a legion with many color schemes. Unfortunately, with the BA's flaws growing stronger and stronger with each generation, I don't believe that rapid replenishment of casualties would end well for them.

Dark Angels also benefit from the same advantages as the Templars - recruiting from many many worlds, no centralized geneseed storage, a large initial force (counting all of their successors).

I'm not sure if they would be willing to risk the necessary laxity in their recruiting/creation process, but I personally believe so. After all, they aren't risking much - the basic Dark Angel isn't really entrusted with vital information beyond "point bolter at non-unforgiven and fire." Any who deviate can be disappeared through the usual Dark Angel sneaky-bastard methods, or used as cannon fodder.

Being fleet-based, they can take their supply chain with them wherever it is needed (or more importantly, away from wherever it shouldn't be). However, this is their greatest weakness - once the Astronomican goes, coordinated fleet movements will be difficult, to say the least. But I am assuming that their enemies will suffer from the same problems. And unlike the Templars, Dark Angels do have the good sense to run and hide when things go to hell.