PDA

View Full Version : What if: The Great Ultramarine Conspiracy



Polaria
26-12-2010, 11:26
Okay, lets go back into 40K history a bit. Ten millenia ago one legion did not get massacred in Istvaan Drop Site and did not take part in Siege of Terra thus being left mostly intact while the progeny of all other Pimarchs were either decimated or turned traitor and thus banished from Imperium. This legion was of course Ultramarines. After Emperor was interned into Golden Throne and stopped direct communication the leader of this legion wrote a Codex Astartes and pretty much forced all legions to be shattered and reorganized by his playbook, going as far as basically threatening former defenders of Terra with another civil war.

Hop ahead ten millenium, come to 41st. The descendants of Ultramarines make up roughly 60% of all chapters and those "rebels" who did not play by Guilliman-rules (Space Wolves, Dark Angels etc.) get driven to sidelines with only a handfull of chapters using their genetic seed. Yet more Ultramarines are the only chapter who have not oone homeworld but a whole sub-sector of worlds and the only chapter whose homeworlds produce literally hundreds of Imperial Guard regiments whereas a "normal" chapter has no regiments to call their own.

What is even more strange is that while Ultramarines are nominally 1000 strong, yet they seem to have taken part of literally each and every battle of any note in the whole Galaxy...

I really start to wonder if Guilliman "accidentally" forgot to break up his legion, instead keeping Ultramarines intact and 100 000 or so strong while generating more chapters from their geneseed (there is a lot of seed in 100 000 marines you know) all the while playing underhanded political games to cripple each and every other legion. I really start to wonder WHO is actually leading the Imperium? Maybe the traitors ARE right, the man on the Golden Throne is dead and False Emperor Roboute Guilliman is holding the threads behind the scene...

Sephiroth
26-12-2010, 11:43
I'm afraid I don't see this.

The Primarchs that didn't want their Legion to be broken up were (have been) the Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, Salamanders and the Iron Hands (the latter seems to have been dropped in favour of the Salamanders).

The Primarchs that did want their Legion to be broken up were the Ultramarines (naturally), White Scars and the Raven Guard.

The Blood Angels, (now) Iron Hands, Dark Angels all seem to abstain, which might be linked to their lost Primarchs before the Second Founding - they probably were willing to go with whoever emerged successful.

Guilliman didn't need to break up the other Legions to take power. Combine the number of Successors with the original.

Space Wolves: 1
Dark Angels: 3
Imperial Fists: 2
Blood Angels: 3
White Scars: 4
Iron Hands: 2
Salamanders: 0
Raven Guard: 3

So combining the above, gives us (including the originals) about 26. The Ultramarines had 25 successors alone, meaning Ultramarines were roughly 50% of all remaining loyalist Astartes. Add to this, Guilliman had the backing of the newly formed High Lords of Terra - The Imperial Fists were fired upon by the Imperial Navy, not the Ultramarines, when they refused to bow.

Guilliman didn't need to hide it or weaken the others - he stepped in as pretty much the First Lord Commander of the Imperium.

Korraz
26-12-2010, 11:43
100 000 ultramarineblue clad guys on Ultramar would catch someone's eye in the course of 11 000 years, dont you think?

ChaosTicket
26-12-2010, 12:33
While I think this is just conspiracy theories(the Ultramarines were fighting off the Word Bearers and fighting who knows how many other traitors while the other loyalists rushed straight for Terra ignoring the rest of the universe), I do say that the Ultramarines have unusually low numbers for a chapter that has a whole sub-sector to recruit from compared to other chapters which have either a single home world or several low population feral worlds.

Do the Ultramarines get so large that every 250-500 years or so they have a successor chapter created using all their additional marines?

shadowhawk2008
26-12-2010, 12:54
who says that the ultramarines ever exceed 1000 marines as their main force (not counting officers and chapter HQ auxiliary staff and others such as techmarines etc). maybe 5-20 marines at most would be the exeption i guess but i somehow doubt that they ever reach such high numbers as to actually have a chapter split.

MarshalFaust
26-12-2010, 13:13
Ultramarines were tied up with the word bearers during and after istvaan V. They weren't just hanging around and waiting. I think it's interesting that guilliman was the proponent for breaking up the legions when he had the most to lose by doing so.

Polaria
26-12-2010, 13:24
The Blood Angels,

Blood Angels didn't abstain. Their Primarch was dead and the legion was demolished after Terra so Guilliman took it over and pretty much did what he wanted with them. At least this is the story current Codex: Blood Angels tells.





So combining the above, gives us (including the originals) about 26. The Ultramarines had 25 successors alone, meaning Ultramarines were roughly 50% of all remaining loyalist Astartes. Add to this, Guilliman had the backing of the newly formed High Lords of Terra - The Imperial Fists were fired upon by the Imperial Navy, not the Ultramarines, when they refused to bow.

Guilliman didn't need to hide it or weaken the others - he stepped in as pretty much the First Lord Commander of the Imperium.

Yup, Ultramarines were the majority EXACTLY because they had stayed away from the fight, just waiting for their time to step over and tell everyone to do as they wanted... and yes, it was Imperial Navy that pointed the actual cannons at Dorn. The Imperial Navy which was, at that time, under the high command of... oh wait, Roboute Guilliman the First Lord Commander of the Imperium.

Quite convenient, eh?

...as for the argument that having more than 1000 blue-clad Ultramarines going around would be noticed. Well, its not like Inquisition or High Lords are doing anything about Black Templars, now are they? and we already know there might very well be 2000, 5000 or even 10 000 Black Templars out there and unlike the Ultramarines they aren't exactly the poster boys of the Imperium and loved by everyone. My point is: If there were 100000 Ultramarines out there instead of 1000, then who is this "someone" who would notice it and take some action? And with what muscles?

Lupe
26-12-2010, 13:36
Ultramarines were tied up with the word bearers during and after istvaan V. They weren't just hanging around and waiting. I think it's interesting that guilliman was the proponent for breaking up the legions when he had the most to lose by doing so.

Well, he probably came up with the idea to break up the legions one day, as he was writing Christmas Cards for his entire legion...

Londinium
26-12-2010, 14:01
What is even more strange is that while Ultramarines are nominally 1000 strong, yet they seem to have taken part of literally each and every battle of any note in the whole Galaxy...


Armaggedon
The numerous Black Crusades
The Age of Apostasy
The Badab Crusade
Medusa V

None of these have seen an Ultramarines presence. The only reason the Ultras get so much focus is because they're the default marine chapter. Fact is they don't get around much more than the other chapters, indeed they barely appear in most of the post 2000 major fluff pieces aside from those involving the Tyranids.

As for the fluff reasons, it's fairly explicitly mentioned that Horus diverted Guilliman to the south to keep him away from the Heresy. Guilliman didn't play any role in the Ultramarines not being able to fight on Terra. Lets also not forget they had to fight the 2nd largest legion, the Word Bearers on Calth and then fight their way through the Galaxy back to Terra. Where they arrived only just after the Dark Angels and Space Wolves.

Col. Tartleton
26-12-2010, 14:19
Seeing as they managed to bump up Legion Sizes by X10 (They used to be about 10,000 now they're 100,000, it would be reasonable to make Chapters 10,000 men and similar to a Guard Regiment in size, if not in quality) as it would give them some real effect. A thousand marines is all well and good, but you're only going to put a few hundred in the field anywhere and even then it's not exactly likely to have several hundred marines in one place. Essentially 1,000 men seems like a waste of resources. 1,000 marines is reasonably large and varied enough in doing things on it's own but how often do they deploy 1,000 marines? Never.

I advise the structure being reformed to more like this:

Chapter Master- Supreme Commander for Chapter
Company Master- Commanding Officer for Company (~1,000 men)
Company Commander- Executive Officer for Company (~1,000 men)
Captain- Commanding Officer for a Company (~100 men)
Lieutenant- Executive Officer for Company (~100 men)
Veteran Sergeant- Platoon Leader (~50 men)
Sergeant-Squad Leader (~10 men)
Initiate

Lord_Crull
26-12-2010, 15:19
Okay, lets go back into 40K history a bit. Ten millenia ago one legion did not get massacred in Istvaan Drop Site and did not take part in Siege of Terra thus being left mostly intact while the progeny of all other Pimarchs were either decimated or turned traitor and thus banished from Imperium. This legion was of course Ultramarines. After Emperor was interned into Golden Throne and stopped direct communication the leader of this legion wrote a Codex Astartes and pretty much forced all legions to be shattered and reorganized by his playbook, going as far as basically threatening former defenders of Terra with another civil war.


Not quite.

First of all the battle at Calth was very bloody for the Ultramarines (If the recent Garro audiobook is any indication) and the Ultramarines where soon bloodied enough after the Heresy during the Scouring.

And Guilliman had his support. Both Corax, the Khan and the former Blood Angels supported him. You forget that Dorn also insulted Guilliman as well asn shares as much blame.


Yet more Ultramarines are the only chapter who have not oone homeworld but a whole sub-sector of worlds and the only chapter whose homeworlds produce literally hundreds of Imperial Guard regiments whereas a "normal" chapter has no regiments to call their own.


Actually no, the Marine codex notes that there are other chapters who rule ''systems or even sub-sectors''. It's not just the Ultramarines. And we don't know if other Marine homeworlds maintain PDF or not. Most Marine worlds are feral worlds or deathworlds, who are cut off from knowledge of the Greater Imperium (Like Baal or Fenris) we have not seen say Deliverance, which would probably have PDF, since it's a heavily industrialised world.



What is even more strange is that while Ultramarines are nominally 1000 strong, yet they seem to have taken part of literally each and every battle of any note in the whole Galaxy...


What are you talking about? The Ultramarines have not taken apart of every battle in the Galaxy. They appear alot because of GW has them as poster boys, but they are hardly omnipresent.


I really start to wonder if Guilliman "accidentally" forgot to break up his legion, instead keeping Ultramarines intact and 100 000 or so strong while generating more chapters from their geneseed (there is a lot of seed in 100 000 marines you know) all the while playing underhanded political games to cripple each and every other legion. I really start to wonder WHO is actually leading the Imperium? Maybe the traitors ARE right, the man on the Golden Throne is dead and False Emperor Roboute Guilliman is holding the threads behind the scene...

Your theory is disproved by the fact that Guilliman is currently frozen in stasis. It's hard to control everybody when you are locked mortally wounded in time.

As for the Legion numbers, I think an entire 100,000 Legion would have had less trouble than an entire chapter in repulsing Kraken.

In fact Chapter's Due pretty much proves you wrong, as it shows the Ultramarines numbers at 1000.


I do say that the Ultramarines have unusually low numbers for a chapter that has a whole sub-sector to recruit from compared to other chapters which have either a single home world or several low population feral worlds.

Do the Ultramarines get so large that every 250-500 years or so they have a successor chapter created using all their additional marines?

No, they have the right nubmers for a chapter. 1000 Astartes (ignoring support staff). They would simply stop recruiting once they filled their quota. There is nothing in Ultramarine fluff that has them constantly recruiting present day.



Armaggedon
The numerous Black Crusades
The Age of Apostasy
The Badab Crusade
Medusa V

None of these have seen an Ultramarines presence.

Actually no. Sicarius led the Crusade at Medusa V. An Ultramarines Honor Company was at the 13th Black Crusade.

Index Astartes Humanity's Shield.


Ten thousand years ago. in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy, Roboute Guilliman, the Primarch of the Ultramarines, decreed that his chapter would stand ready to oppose the Traitors that fled to the Eye of Terror should they ever return to plague the Imperium. The Ultramarines took no part in the Battte of the Emperor's Palace, as they were fighting half a galaxy away, and Guilliman was determined that his chapter would never find itself unable to respond to such a threat again.

The solution was to ensure a continuous presence in the vicinity of the Eye of Terror, by maintaining an honour guard made up of individual squads from different companies. In time, the chapter's commitments across the Imperium necessitated that the other Primogenitor chapters - the second founding successors of the Ultramarines, should also provide squads.

For the last ten thousand years this guard has maintained a presence at the Cadian Gate, standing firm alongside the other chapters stationed there to challenge any Black Crusade that threatens Cadia's defences. At the outset of the 13th Black Crusade, the force is comprised almost entirely of Ultramarines squads, alongside which stand a number of detachments from the chapter's successors. The honour guard has already seen action in a number of engagements, notably the Defence of Narsine and the Sarlax Reprisals, lending the legendary courage and honour of the Ultramarines and their kin to the defence of the Cadia Gate.

But yes, there is nothing that can't be explained by normal chapter numbers.


Blood Angels didn't abstain. Their Primarch was dead and the legion was demolished after Terra so Guilliman took it over and pretty much did what he wanted with them. At least this is the story current Codex: Blood Angels tells.


Actually no,. The whole passage in the Blood Angels codex makes them sound pretty enthusiastic about it. They see the Coex as a way of defeating their curse.



Yup, Ultramarines were the majority EXACTLY because they had stayed away from the fight, just waiting for their time to step over and tell everyone to do as they wanted...

Actually Horus Heresy: Visions of Darkness notes that the Ultramarines where mere hours away from Terra, alongside the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves. This is in addition when the Ultramarines probably hads greater ground to cover then the other two Legions. So if anything the Ultramarines went faster than other Legions.


and yes, it was Imperial Navy that pointed the actual cannons at Dorn. The Imperial Navy which was, at that time, under the high command of... oh wait, Roboute Guilliman the First Lord Commander of the Imperium.

Quite convenient, eh?


Actually no. Guilliman status of First Lord Commander of the Imperium was believed by the Ultramarines themselves, it's possible, but can't be confirmed.

Second, Guilliman risked his own chapter to save Dorn at the Iron Cage. If Guilliman really wanted the Fists to fold he would have simply let Dorn and his die hards perish. In fact Guilliman is noted to be pleading with Dorn to help him.

Index Astartes Iron Warriors:


Roboute Guilliman pleaded with Dorn to let him help but just as Perturabo planned, Dorn was arrogant enough to undertake the mission alone.


...as for the argument that having more than 1000 blue-clad Ultramarines going around would be noticed. Well, its not like Inquisition or High Lords are doing anything about Black Templars, now are they? and we already know there might very well be 2000, 5000 or even 10 000 Black Templars out there and unlike the Ultramarines they aren't exactly the poster boys of the Imperium and loved by everyone.

Actually no. It's noted in the Black Templar Codex that nobody knows how many Templars there are because they are constantly moving around and have no home base. Index Astartes: Black Templars even state that only the Templars have any idea of how many there are, because they are moving aorudn constantly. If the Inquisition actually knew there exact numbers then there would be trouble.

Meanwhile there is an Inquisitorial Fortress world in Ultramar and Chapter's Due confirms that the Inquisition has spy drones on Ultramar.


My point is: If there were 100000 Ultramarines out there instead of 1000, then who is this "someone" who would notice it and take some action? And with what muscles?

The High Lords of course, with the rest of the Imperial military.

Polaria
26-12-2010, 15:44
First of all the battle at Calth was very bloody for the Ultramarines (If the recent Garro audiobook is any indication) and the Ultramarines where soon bloodied enough after the Heresy during the Scouring.

Yet C: SM itself say, and I quote, "Ultramarines emerged from the Heresy almost unscathed"




And Guilliman had his support. Both Corax, the Khan and the former Blood Angels supported him. You forget that Dorn also insulted Guilliman as well asn shares as much blame.

Dorn had just sacrificed most of his Legion defending Emperor when Guilliman the "I passed all the real fightiing" Lord Commander walks in and starts telling Dorn how he should fight... I'd be damn pissed if I was Dorn.



And we don't know if other Marine homeworlds maintain PDF or not. Most Marine worlds are feral worlds or deathworlds, who are cut off from knowledge of the Greater Imperium (Like Baal or Fenris) we have not seen say Deliverance, which would probably have PDF, since it's a heavily industrialised world.

Actually C: SM specifically says Space Marine howeworlds are exempt from using their PDFs in Imperial Guard and that the Ultramar forces are both huge and a huge exeption in this.





Your theory is disproved by the fact that Guilliman is currently frozen in stasis. It's hard to control everybody when you are locked mortally wounded in time.

According to C: SM (yet again) there are eye-witness accounts saying Guillimans wounds have healed... Which should be impossible if he was in stasis field all the time, right?

Lord_Crull
26-12-2010, 15:56
Yet C: SM itself say, and I quote, "Ultramarines emerged from the Heresy almost unscathed"


And then the Scouring took place after the Heresy.



Dorn had just sacrificed most of his Legion defending Emperor when Guilliman the "I passed all the real fightiing" Lord Commander walks in and starts telling Dorn how he should fight... I'd be damn pissed if I was Dorn.


Actually no. It's noted in the Scouring that much of the Ultramarine way of war was passed to other Legions. And the Ultramarines themselves made up half of the Marines during the Scouring and aided the Fists directly against the Iron Warriors in the attack an Olympia.

Index Astartes Ultramarines:


Macragge provided recruits as fast as it could, and soon the Ultramarines accounted for more than half of the Space Marines in the field. After almost a decade of total war, stability was restored to the galaxy and the philosophies of the Ultramarines' way of war had permeated almost every Legion. Under Guilliman's guidance, the holy Codex Astartes was taking shape and its doctrines would shape every future Space Marine force and lay the foundations for the Imperium's conventional military might.

The Codex came after all of that, and even then Dorn's only issue appeared to be with the breaking of the Legions, not with combat doctrine.



Actually C: SM specifically says Space Marine howeworlds are exempt from using their PDFs in Imperial Guard and that the Ultramar forces are both huge and a huge exeption in this.


Actually they may be exempt, but that does not mean they can't raise forces and send them to the Guard if they wish. Plus when the Ultramar PDF regiments enter the Guard they are no longer under the command of the Ultramarines, they quickly get submersed into the Guard.



According to C: SM (yet again) there are eye-witness accounts saying Guillimans wounds have healed... Which should be impossible if he was in stasis field all the time, right?

Actually those ''eye witness accounts'' are essentially just human pilgrims. It's essentially a modern day King Arthur tale. (This is said in the Ultramarine novels and in the Index Astartes article) Guilliman was already dying when the stasis field was set up. Even in the Codex itself, the passage uses in context as ''claims'', a ''regal corpse'' and as ''phenomena''. It's not referred to as an ''eyewitness account'' and it's hardly an ironclad statement.


Not even the Primarch's god-like physique could halt the spread of Fulgrim's poison and, as Guilliman died, the Apothecaries set up a stasis field and transported their leader back to Macragge. To this day, Roboute Guilliman remains entombed within the stasis field, held immobile on his marble throne in the Temple of Correction on Macragge. There are those who claim that the Primarch's wounds are healing, but this is clearly impossible within the time-locked bubble of a stasis field. Despite this self-evident fact, many believe such tales and await the time when Guilliman will be fully recovered.

Note the word ''died''. (The codex itself supports such a statement by referring to Guilliman as a '' regal corpse'') If you released Guilliman from the field he would be dead in seconds from the Chaos poison. Any such things about Guilliman recovering are ''claims'' and ''tales''. Uriel in Nightbringer vists Guilliman's body and notes that while people claim that Guilliman may be healing, he himself does not see how it's possible and his whole tone of thought holds the entire idea in doubt.

Plus, strangely enough, none of the Ultramarines in Chapter's Due think of waking up Guilliman to help them when M'kar invades. We even get to see the personal thoughts of Calgar and Tigurius even.

Retribution
26-12-2010, 16:06
The witnesses who see his wounds healing are over-zealous religious pilgrims, not reliable at all

Londinium
26-12-2010, 17:06
Actually no. Sicarius led the Crusade at Medusa V. An Ultramarines Honor Company was at the 13th Black Crusade.


Ah my bad with Medusa V, my brains a little scrambled at the moment. I knew the Ultras had sent an honour guard in the 13th Black Crusade but it barely does anything in the fluff other than being there. The Dark Angels, Space Wolves, White Scars and Iron Hands all had more substantial contributions to the war out of the loyalist legions. An honour company is pretty much nothing when whole chapters were being deployed to the area.

Drasanil
26-12-2010, 18:31
Actually no,. The whole passage in the Blood Angels codex makes them sound pretty enthusiastic about it. They see the Coex as a way of defeating their curse.

Quick question, how? The codex is in essence a procedural rulebook for marines, there's nothing inherently magical about it so how could it be seen as a way of defeating their curse?

Lord_Crull
26-12-2010, 18:38
Quick question, how? The codex is in essence a procedural rulebook for marines, there's nothing inherently magical about it so how could it be seen as a way of defeating their curse?

Don't ask me. That's just what's mentioned in the Blood Angels codex. Appearantly it's strict structures allow them discipline or something.


Ah my bad with Medusa V, my brains a little scrambled at the moment. I knew the Ultras had sent an honour guard in the 13th Black Crusade but it barely does anything in the fluff other than being there. The Dark Angels, Space Wolves, White Scars and Iron Hands all had more substantial contributions to the war out of the loyalist legions. An honour company is pretty much nothing when whole chapters were being deployed to the area.

Said Honor Company also boarded the Planet Killer and destroyed a few Space Hulks.

Index Astartes: Eye of the Storm.



The Honour Company distinguished itself early in the war, the first action being a bold, space-borne counter-assault against Abaddon's fleet as the Planet Killer closed on the agri-world of Lortox on the outskirts of the Agripinaa sector. The action bought the world's Planetary Defence Force time to evacuate a significant proportion of the population before the world was destroyed by the Despoiler's horrific weapon of planetary destruction.

In the aftermath of the Lortox Evacuations, the Honour Company redeployed to Cadia and the surrounding systems, launching a series of operations to hinder Abaddon's forces as they assaulted the fortress world. These attacks included a series of highly successful boarding actions against the lumbering space hulks being used to transport vast hordes of the Lost and the Damned to reinforce the Despoiler's siege of Cadia. In total, three hulks were disabled on the outskirts of the Cadian system, stranding an estimated 600.000 traitors, mutants and cultists to freeze in the cold depths of interstellar space. A fourth hulk, codified the Herald of Grief. was destroyed as an Honour Company boarding force succeeded in activating a seismic detonator deep within its core, causing the hulk to splinter into a hundred fragments and killing every one of the estimated 200,000 enemy on board.

nagash66
26-12-2010, 21:12
Lord_Crull the passage in the BA dex really too much on reader interpretation.

Our only hope to know how the whole codex/legion split events went down without us simply splitting into pro and against Ultramarines is to hope for more background that will show the truth with 100% clarity.

Lord_Crull
26-12-2010, 21:40
Lord_Crull the passage in the BA dex really too much on reader interpretation.


I don't see how. The Angels where amoung the first to adopt the codex with Azakaellon masterminding the changes. In fact the whole issue is regarded as one of the Blood Angels's lesser concerns.

Lowmans
27-12-2010, 12:26
It should maybe noted that, as the passage states, the Honour Company is not solely Ultramarines.
Furthermore, to fit in with the old 'Banner of Macragge' wargear card fluff it must, at times, have contained no Ultramarines at all!

Lord_Crull
27-12-2010, 13:06
It should maybe noted that, as the passage states, the Honour Company is not solely Ultramarines.
Furthermore, to fit in with the old 'Banner of Macragge' wargear card fluff it must, at times, have contained no Ultramarines at all!

And yet at the time of the 13th Black Crusade it still contained Ultramarines. In fact my earlier quote states they where almost entirely composed of Ultramarine squads with sucessor detatchments in support.

Lowmans
27-12-2010, 14:06
And yet at the time of the 13th Black Crusade it still contained Ultramarines. In fact my earlier quote states they where almost entirely composed of Ultramarine squads with sucessor detatchments in support.

True but you have been referring to this as an Ultramarines honour company - which is a little misleading as a title. As both your earlier quote and the old banner of Macragge fluff shows.

Lord_Crull
27-12-2010, 14:15
True but you have been referring to this as an Ultramarines honour company - which is a little misleading as a title. As both your earlier quote and the old banner of Macragge fluff shows.

Except it is an Ultramarine Honor company. It's almost entirely composed of Ultramarines and is normally led by them. It's set up by an Ultramarine Primarch and supported by Ultramarine sucessors. That's how it's referred to in the fluff and in the various White Dwarf articles.

Lowmans
27-12-2010, 14:25
It is not an Ultramarine company, except in the sense that primogenitor chapters are Ultramarines. The Ultramarines Primarch is also their Primarch. It is mostly Ultramarine chapter at the onset of the 13 Black Crusade - true.
However, the fluff for the banner of Macragge stated that the banner was only brought forth when the entire chapter accompanied it. Which
was why the banner caused fear.
Therefore - there are occassions when there are no Ultramarines in the company at the Eye.

Lord_Crull
27-12-2010, 14:34
It is not an Ultramarine company, except in the sense that primogenitor chapters are Ultramarines. The Ultramarines Primarch is also their Primarch. It is mostly Ultramarine chapter at the onset of the 13 Black Crusade - true.
However, the fluff for the banner of Macragge stated that the banner was only brought forth when the entire chapter accompanied it. Which
was why the banner caused fear.
Therefore - there are occassions when there are no Ultramarines in the company at the Eye.

On occasion, yes. But that's it. An occasion of circumstance, nothing more. Usually it's noted that Ultramarines comprise the vast majority of the company, hence the term Ultramarines Honor Company.

Lowmans
27-12-2010, 15:20
Well that's your chosen interpretation - which is fair enough.

It does crop up quite often in the timeline though -

Behemoth in 745.M41
Battle of the Sepulchre 888.M41
Battle of Corinh?! I think - when the chapter banner bearer fell.
854999.M41 Calgar recalls all Ultramarine chapter to defend Ultramar

The last one being unresolved in fluff and uncomfortably close to 995999.M41 and the start of the 13th crusade where, as you point out, a chunk
of ultramarines are at the eye!

You pay your money you take your choice. I prefer to choose that the Honour company is an old legion thing not an Ultramarine thing!

Lord_Crull
27-12-2010, 15:30
Well that's your chosen interpretation - which is fair enough.

It does crop up quite often in the timeline though -

Behemoth in 745.M41


I don't recall anything about the Honor Company being recalled to the other side of the galaxy for Behemoth.


Battle of the Sepulchre 888.M41


Same here, I don't recall anything in the passage stating that the Honor Company was recalled. In any case that was an exception because the Ultramarines where still rebuilding.


854999.M41 Calgar recalls all Ultramarine chapter to defend Ultramar


Actually they don't all get there, and it's only a couple of companies. that's noted in Chapter's Due. In fact Calgar makes no mention of recalling the Honor Company at the Eye. (Earlier in Dead Sky Black Sun the 13th Black Crusade is in full swing) In any case it would be impractical to recall a unit of Ultramarines form the other side of the galaxy.



The last one being unresolved in fluff and uncomfortably close to 995999.M41 and the start of the 13th crusade where, as you point out, a chunk of ultramarines are at the eye!


Not really. The Honor company is made up from squads from all companies. That's what 80-90 Astartes for a majority? That's a mere tenth of the Ultramarines and not much. It's evenly dispersed over the squads. You can have the entire chapter deployed with each company missing only a single squad.

And the wargear card for the Banner is old anyway, it can't possible mean every single Ultramarine must be present to use the banner. What about the Deathwatch or Astartes on other business in the galaxy? Plus the original article for the battle of Cornith says that detatchments from six chaptrers where present. Nothign about the entrie Ultramarines chapter being present.

But regardless, four (possible) occasions in three centuries is not much at all.



You pay your money you take your choice. I prefer to choose that the Honour company is an old legion thing not an Ultramarine thing!

You could choose to do that, however it does not change the fact that the vast majority of the time it's an Ultramarine thing. The original article uses the word ''necessitated'' and implies that the prescense of sucessor chapters is not something done preferably or as originally intended. The Index Astartes article makes it rather clear that it was intended to be an Ultramarines-primary unit, barring rare exceptions.

FashaTheDog
27-12-2010, 16:17
Well, he probably came up with the idea to break up the legions one day, as he was writing Christmas Cards for his entire legion...

I am writing to wish you and your Legion a most Merry Christmas. We celebrate the holiday season and remember those who fell defending the Emperor's dominion, especially those Primarchs not with us today, Ferrus Manus and Sanguinius and of course we must remember the Emperor himself who now sits upon the Golden Throne.

And as tidings of Christmas joy, we are breaking the Legions into thousand strong organizations called Chapters. Be sure to have this done by the New Year as I'll be checking in on each of you with the Imperial Navy.

Best Wishes,
Roboute Guilliman

nagash66
27-12-2010, 17:22
I don't see how. The Angels where amoung the first to adopt the codex with Azakaellon masterminding the changes. In fact the whole issue is regarded as one of the Blood Angels's lesser concerns.

Was it before or after the live fire incident with the fists?

How was Azakaellon talked into it by Guilliman, was he strong armed or just liked it??

It gives us no context, it just states that the BA adopted it after the heresy and that Gulliman was there and took part in it.

The fact that Ward wrote in this never before talked about massive intervention by his personnal favourite chapter which we know he has twisted backround to make more important and awesome before.

So yeah i would say looking at this tiny passage it depends on how one looks into it.

Lord_Crull
27-12-2010, 17:54
Was it before or after the live fire incident with the fists?


The Blood Angels where stated to be one of the first chapters to adopt the Codex.



How was Azakaellon talked into it by Guilliman, was he strong armed or just liked it??


He appearantly liked it enough to do it. If Guilliman wanted for the Blood Angels Legion to adopt it he would have gone to everybody who had authority in the Blood angels Legion, not just one guy.



It gives us no context, it just states that the BA adopted it after the heresy and that Gulliman was there and took part in it.


Actually no, the passage puts it as actually a lesser issue for the Blood Angels and has them as one of the first to adopt it, implying that it was simply an issue they quickly adopted by themselves.



The fact that Ward wrote in this never before talked about massive intervention by his personnal favourite chapter which we know he has twisted backround to make more important and awesome before.


How exactly was this a massive intervention by his favourite chapter? Guilliman is barly mentioned, much more attention is given to Azakaellon than anything else.



So yeah i would say looking at this tiny passage it depends on how one looks into it.

Not really.

nagash66
27-12-2010, 18:48
The Blood Angels where stated to be one of the first chapters to adopt the Codex.

9 loyal legion left, we take out ultramarines, white scars and raven guard ( the legions who were all for it and took it up from the get go) could easily mean one of the first of the rest.

So yeah 4 out of 9 is one of the first, considering 3 out 9 fought it all the way and 1 out of 9 never took it up puts this in perspective.




He appearantly liked it enough to do it. If Guilliman wanted for the Blood Angels Legion to adopt it he would have gone to everybody who had authority in the Blood angels Legion, not just one guy.

Why?? Marines are soldiers when an order comes down the chain they follow it. You only need to get the guy at the top then you let the chain of command do the rest.

Or are you saying they would a inter BA civil war if just the leader of the Legion gave a direct order??




Actually no, the passage puts it as actually a lesser issue for the Blood Angels and has them as one of the first to adopt it, implying that it was simply an issue they quickly adopted by themselves.

I would disagree, it implys he had a MASSIVE role in the reformation of the Legion into a chapter.




How exactly was this a massive intervention by his favourite chapter? Guilliman is barly mentioned, much more attention is given to Azakaellon than anything else.

He inserted the Ultramarines into a crucial decision which changed the way the chapter would work for the rest of 40k background when they were never mentioned as doing so before.

It would be like having Dante show up and give Papa Smurf tips on how to fight Tyranids and then lead to the Tyranid Veteran squads forming.

It was simply a excuse to once again put HIS favorite chapter in on something.

In any case as i have said the background given can support a number of theorys as there is so little of it.

Until we get more it is simply a case of people putting forth their own views, which will fun will lead to a endless cycle of : you are wrong...no YOU are wrong...no i think you will find that YOU are wrong...etc etc etc.

Lowmans
27-12-2010, 18:52
@Lord_Crull

Each of the specific instances I gave were those where the Ultramarine Chapter, in fluff, was deployed 'in full' or recalled 'in full'.
There's no reason why there would be a specific mention of the Honour Company Ultras (if any were currently at the eye)
being recalled. After all it doesn't specifically mention any squads or companies being recalled in these cases - it says 'all'.
We know the whole chapter fought ar Corinh because
the chapter banner was deployed.

You're stating that the Honour Company is an Ultramarine Chapter thing the majority of the time is a 'fact' I don't think it is. I think it's very open to interpretation.

ryng_sting
27-12-2010, 19:55
one legion did not get massacred in Istvaan Drop Site and did not take part in Siege of Terra thus being left mostly intact


Horus ensured Guilliman and the largest legion were far away before he acted. Everything else follows from that. Even so, they still took a beating at Calth before routing the Word Bearers, and it was the news of their impending arrival (along with the Space Wolves and the Dark Angels) that forced Horus's hand.

Lord_Crull
27-12-2010, 20:20
Why?? Marines are soldiers when an order comes down the chain they follow it. You only need to get the guy at the top then you let the chain of command do the rest.

Or are you saying they would a inter BA civil war if just the leader of the Legion gave a direct order??


There was no leader of the Legion after their Primarch died. Azakaellon was the Herald of the Sanguinary Guard, a figure of much influence, but not the undisputed leader of them all.



I would disagree, it implys he had a MASSIVE role in the reformation of the Legion into a chapter.


Actually the Blood angels themselves would disagree, as the passage states that the reformation of the chapter was one of their lesser issues. (Their dead primarch and geneseed problems later on being more important)



He inserted the Ultramarines into a crucial decision which changed the way the chapter would work for the rest of 40k background when they were never mentioned as doing so before.


Appearantly the Blood angels themselves don't think it's a very crucial descsison.



In any case as i have said the background given can support a number of theorys as there is so little of it.

Until we get more it is simply a case of people putting forth their own views, which will fun will lead to a endless cycle of : you are wrong...no YOU are wrong...no i think you will find that YOU are wrong...etc etc etc.

You can say as much as you want, but it's quite plain to me.



Each of the specific instances I gave were those where the Ultramarine Chapter, in fluff, was deployed 'in full' or recalled 'in full'.
There's no reason why there would be a specific mention of the Honour Company Ultras (if any were currently at the eye)
being recalled.

Why not? In Chapter's Due Calgar was recalling everybody, except those Ultramarines at the Eye (Who should still be embroiled there if my timeline with the books is correct.)


We know the whole chapter fought ar Corinh because
the chapter banner was deployed.


Actually no. The WD 246 and the Third Edition Marine Codex states that detatchments from six chapters where sent. It mentioned nothing about the full chapter being sent and actually implies the opposite.



You're stating that the Honour Company is an Ultramarine Chapter thing the majority of the time is a 'fact' I don't think it is. I think it's very open to interpretation.

Except it is, the Index Astrates essentially states it is.

Index Astartes: Humanity's Shield

(Note here the entire section is listed under Ultramarines in the original source)


Ten thousand years ago. in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy, Roboute Guilliman, the Primarch of the Ultramarines, decreed that his chapter would stand ready to oppose the Traitors that fled to the Eye of Terror should they ever return to plague the Imperium. The Ultramarines took no part in the Battte of the Emperor's Palace, as they were fighting half a galaxy away, and Guilliman was determined that his chapter would never find itself unable to respond to such a threat again.

Note it's talking about his chapter here.


The solution was to ensure a continuous presence in the vicinity of the Eye of Terror, by maintaining an honour guard made up of individual squads from different companies. In time, the chapter's commitments across the Imperium necessitated that the other Primogenitor chapters - the second founding successors of the Ultramarines, should also provide squads.

Note the word ''necessitated'' implying that this is not the original intent.


For the last ten thousand years this guard has maintained a presence at the Cadian Gate, standing firm alongside the other chapters stationed there to challenge any Black Crusade that threatens Cadia's defences. At the outset of the 13th Black Crusade, the force is comprised almost entirely of Ultramarines squads, alongside which stand a number of detachments from the chapter's successors. The honour guard has already seen action in a number of engagements, notably the Defence of Narsine and the Sarlax Reprisals, lending the legendary courage and honour of the Ultramarines and their kin to the defence of the Cadia Gate

Note how the sucessors are described alongside the Honor Company, rather than as part of it's formation.

Overall it looks pretty clear cut to me. There are sucessors, true, but the Index Astartes makes it rather clear that it was orginally an Ultramarines formed squad with forces from the sucessors only being sent in when the Ultramarines themselves cannot come in.

nagash66
27-12-2010, 20:50
You can say as much as you want, but it's quite plain to me.



Good thing this isn't heading too: You are wrong...no you are wrong...


Oh wait....:eek:


In any case while this thread is funny, OP the Ultras get enough hate for good and valid reasons, no need to add to that heap its quit tall enough.

And with that i bid this thread a good day.

Lowmans
28-12-2010, 01:12
@Lord_Crull
As stated in Codex Space Marines Calgar recalls all Ultramarines to Macragge. It doesn't say all except those at the Eye.

We know the whole chapter fought at Corinh because, as I said: The Banner of Macragge was there.

I disagree, in addition, with your interpretation of the Honour Company. I think Guillemans intent was that his legion, as was, not be caught out.
I'm not arguing your interpretation here is provably wrong I think you've chosen to believe a theory, I'm choosing to believe another.

TheLaughingGod
28-12-2010, 01:40
Good thing this isn't heading too: You are wrong...no you are wrong...

And with that i bid this thread a good day.

Some people are just stuck in their own interpretations of things and no amount of logic, rational debate or factual evidence will convince them otherwise. You just gotta know when to bow out gracefully when arguing with those people, because if you're lucky, they're the only ones who think they're right, while the rest of the world can see their folly for what it is.

Lord_Crull
28-12-2010, 01:45
@Lord_Crull
As stated in Codex Space Marines Calgar recalls all Ultramarines to Macragge. It doesn't say all except those at the Eye.


And Chapter's Due shows him recalling all the Ultramarines except those at the Eye. (Keep in mind the Black Crusade just happened going by the timeline in the books)

You have read Chapter's Due have you?


@Lord_Crull
We know the whole chapter fought at Corinh because, as I said: The Banner of Macragge was there.


Except that's not how the more recent fluff has it. In the second edition it may have been that. Now from the Third Edition fluff it's just detatchments from six chapters.


@Lord_Crull
I disagree, in addition, with your interpretation of the Honour Company. I think Guillemans intent was that his legion, as was, not be caught out.
I'm not arguing your interpretation here is provably wrong I think you've chosen to believe a theory, I'm choosing to believe another.

You can choose to believe whatever you wish. Meanwhile I'll stick down to what GW actually wrote.


Some people are just stuck in their own interpretations of things and no amount of logic, rational debate or factual evidence will convince them otherwise. You just gotta know when to bow out gracefully when arguing with those people, because if you're lucky, they're the only ones who think they're right, while the rest of the world can see their folly for what it is.

Correct, I've dealt with alot of guys like that over the years on the forums.

Sephiroth
28-12-2010, 04:45
I got to second Lord_Crull that the background implies the Blood Angels embraced the Codex simply for expediency, without any arm twisting. It isn't really that unexpected, as both the Blood Angels and Dark Angels are Codex Chapters from 2nd edition (Yes, they are, giving your veterans jump-packs, or moving your bike-mounted 7th to the 2nd and giving them a special title, isn't an organizational difference).

Sadly, GW continues with making the adoption of the Codex and splitting of the Legions, synonymous; splitting up the Legions, was mandatory, if you didn't you got fired upon and were generally accused of being a rebel, as seen with the Imperial Fists. The adoption of the Codex however, was optional, something promoted but never forced, as seen with the Space Wolves.

That and Ward just writes bad background...

Lowmans
28-12-2010, 07:55
Lord_Crull

In a conflict between a codex and a Black library book you're welcome to choose which source of background you prefer to believe. You've chosen the Black Library book.

With regard to Corinh you may not like the older background but it hasn't been superseded and the Third ed background regarding detachments from six chapters doesn't exclude it.

You are not sticking with what GW wrote - you are sticking with an interpretation of it.

Polaria
28-12-2010, 09:26
Sadly, GW continues with making the adoption of the Codex and splitting of the Legions, synonymous; splitting up the Legions, was mandatory, if you didn't you got fired upon and were generally accused of being a rebel, as seen with the Imperial Fists. The adoption of the Codex however, was optional, something promoted but never forced, as seen with the Space Wolves.

Breaking up the legions and adoption of Codex were not separate events. The whole chain of events is called "Codex Astartes Crisis" because it all started with presentation of Codex Astartes to the other primarchs. This is clearly written out in Index Astartes books, Codex: Black Templars and other sources.

The meeting where the things between Dorn and Guilliman heated up was primarch-only affair. Leman Russ of Space Wolves and Vulkan of the Salamanders sided with Dorn while Corax of Raven Guards and Jaghatai Khan of White Scars sided with Guilliman. Dark Angels were not represented because their primarch was fighting a inter-legion civil war on Caleban. Iron Warriors and Blood Angels were not even invited because they had no primarchs.

When Dorn finally gave up Salamanders stood with him through that decision also. Wolves just left the building, threw the Codex out of the window and did what they pleased. Iron Hands and Blood Angels weren't really asked as they were, although indirectly, under Guillimans command and did not have a primarch of their own to contest the issue. When Dark Angels finally returned the deed was already over and everyone else except the Wolves had adopted Codex, so Dark Angels were like "yeah, we'll take it too" and then just twisted it to suit themselves.

Sephiroth
28-12-2010, 09:46
You are not sticking with what GW wrote - you are sticking with an interpretation of it.

Its entirely possible for the Ultramarines to be at full Chapter strength, but still have parts scattered around - the Codex recommendatory is a thousand battle-brothers, but that's not a hard and fast line. If some Ultramarine returned from being lost in the warp, deathwatch or the like, and they'd filled his spot, they aren't going to simply shoot him or something.

Epic mentions that Codex Chapters, on crusade, increase their recruitment rate and sometimes even build additional companies.


When Dorn finally gave up Salamanders stood with him through that decision also. Wolves just left the building, threw the Codex out of the window and did what they pleased.

Which makes little to utterly no sense what-so-ever - Guilliman was willing to call out Dorn as a potential traitor and power-monger for refusing to break up his Legion, but Russ just walked away from it without incident...

Added to that, we KNOW they split into another 'Chapter', the Wolf Brothers.

Polaria
28-12-2010, 10:32
Which makes little to utterly no sense what-so-ever - Guilliman was willing to call out Dorn as a potential traitor and power-monger for refusing to break up his Legion, but Russ just walked away from it without incident... Added to that, we KNOW they split into another 'Chapter', the Wolf Brothers.

Imperial Fists was a big legion with healthy geneseed. Had it been allowed to ramain intact it would have probably grown into something that would be a real danger to the Guillimans "New World Order".

Space Wolves was a small legion with geneseed so badly broken that if they ever became a problem it would not be a problem of claiming they have become corrupt and simply bombing them out of the whole galaxy.

Wolves were allowed to walk out simply because there was more dangerous rebels, like several of the Renegade Legions, out there. Later on the Wolves made the concession of splitting up the legion in two and donating geneseed into AdMech vaults like any good chapter.

Remember, Dark Angels were also put in check later on... Since they had nominally embraced Codex and agreed to break up Guilliman or anyone else could not openly accuse them of anything. However, it is quite a coincidence that after second founding Dark Angel geneseed has not been used to create any new chapters (source for this, since you would likely ask, is Codex: Dark Angels). After all Dark Angel geneseed is known to be healthy while "good-codexboy" chapters like Blood Angels and Raven Guards are allowed to procreate more freely even though the problems in their geneseed are certainly no news to High Lords of Terra.

Sephiroth
28-12-2010, 11:14
Imperial Fists was a big legion with healthy geneseed. Had it been allowed to ramain intact it would have probably grown into something that would be a real danger to the Guillimans "New World Order".

Why would Guilliman save Dorn and the Imperial Fists from the Iron Cage, then?

shadowhawk2008
28-12-2010, 11:17
well there was a DA successor chapter formed under mysterious circumstances and BA gene-seed is much more unstable than Raven Guard gene-seed.

shadowhawk2008
28-12-2010, 11:19
Imperial Fists was a big legion with healthy geneseed. Had it been allowed to ramain intact it would have probably grown into something that would be a real danger to the Guillimans "New World Order".

just want to point out that other former legions were larger than the Imperial Fists at this time such as the DA and BA and of these the DA have very stable genetic lines

Polaria
28-12-2010, 11:43
Why would Guilliman save Dorn and the Imperial Fists from the Iron Cage, then?

Why would he not? Iron Cage happened after Dorn had already rolled over and agreed to go by Guillimans plan. Actually Iron Cage happened exactly because Dorn had agreed to go by Guillimans plan... After all the 'collective pain' needed to cleanse the Chapter was decided by Dorn to be an Iron Warriors' fortress, the Iron Cage. The Imperial Fists had suffered staggering losses, but they had proved their loyalty to the Emperor and cleansed themselves of earlier failures.

After Iron Cage Dorn split the remains of his chapter and then spent two decades to rebuild his chapter exactly like Guilliman wanted. When Iron Cage started to go wrong Guilliman did not know how it would end. There was a very real risk that if they did not interfere Imperial Fists would survive, but Dorn would die, leading to Sigismund taking over... and then Guilliman would be back to square one bashing heads against Sigismund who was know to be a die-hard, codex-be-damned, I-R-Emperors-Champion-so-no-one-orders-me-around fellow.

Ka Faraq Gatri
28-12-2010, 11:51
Note how the sucessors are described alongside the Honor Company, rather than as part of it's formation.


Actually, Lord_Crull, you are misreading the passage in question, which I requote below.

...the force is comprised almost entirely of Ultramarines squads, alongside which stand a number of detachments from the chapter's successors.

For a start, you are entirely ignoring that the company is "comprised almost entirely" of Ultramarines, therefore it is not entirely Ultramarines.

Also, and I'll admit that this is a fine and easily-missed point of English, the clause "alongside which stand a number of detachments from the chapter's successors" is actually referring to the "Ultramarines squads", and not to "the force". It's a singular/plural thing.

"...the force" is a singular noun, while the "Ultramarines squads" and the "detachments from the chapter's successors" are plural nouns. For the second plural noun to be referring to the singular noun requires the use of a plural verb - in this case it would be "stands". The fact that the sentence uses a singular verb "stand" means that it can only link the two plural nouns. It's complicated and ridiculous, but that's the English language for you!

Basically, the sentence as written says that the successor chapter forces stand alongside the Ultramarines squads within the structure of the Honour Company.

Polaria
28-12-2010, 12:02
well there was a DA successor chapter formed under mysterious circumstances.

The creation Disciples of Caliban is unusual in that Chapter Master Anaziel of the Dark Angels specifically requested it to the High lords of Terra. At the time, such a request was unheard of and created controversy. ~Codex: Dark Angels



and BA gene-seed is much more unstable than Raven Guard gene-seed.

This is why I find it pretty strange that BA geneseed is used so much. I can only think of two reasons:

1) They are being rewarded for being good boys and not raising fuss during Codex Astartes Crisis

2) They are somehow forging the testing results so even High Lords don't know what deviant mutants they are...

Sephiroth
28-12-2010, 12:05
Why would he not? Iron Cage happened after Dorn had already rolled over and agreed to go by Guillimans plan. Actually Iron Cage happened exactly because Dorn had agreed to go by Guillimans plan... After all the 'collective pain' needed to cleanse the Chapter was decided by Dorn to be an Iron Warriors' fortress, the Iron Cage. The Imperial Fists had suffered staggering losses, but they had proved their loyalty to the Emperor and cleansed themselves of earlier failures.

After Iron Cage Dorn split the remains of his chapter and then spent two decades to rebuild his chapter exactly like Guilliman wanted. When Iron Cage started to go wrong Guilliman did not know how it would end. There was a very real risk that if they did not interfere Imperial Fists would survive, but Dorn would die, leading to Sigismund taking over... and then Guilliman would be back to square one bashing heads against Sigismund who was know to be a die-hard, codex-be-damned, I-R-Emperors-Champion-so-no-one-orders-me-around fellow.

So...

Just let the Iron Warriors wipe them all out. They had no way to escape.

Either Dorn took the entire Legion with him, into the Iron Cage, and thus just standing by would have removed the Imperial Fists...

Or Dorn had already split the Legion into Chapters, and led the 'Imperial Fists' Chapter into the Iron Cage - in which case, Sigismund is still running around, controlling a Chapter, and this his "die-hard, codex-be-damned, I-R-Emperors-Champion-so-no-one-orders-me-around" attitude is already roaming.

If you're suggested Guilliman needed Dorn around to keep Sigismund in line... I think that kind of insults all three parties involved - Guilliman, being Lord Commander of the Imperium, Dorn for now being Sigismund's nursemaid, and Sigismund himself for breaking the spirit of what Dorn wanted, which was to show the "Imperial Fists" were loyal - hence their ongoing crusade of atonement.


This is why I find it pretty strange that BA geneseed is used so much. I can only think of two reasons:

1) They are being rewarded for being good boys and not raising fuss during Codex Astartes Crisis

2) They are somehow forging the testing results so even High Lords don't know what deviant mutants they are...

Well the Ultramarines don't control the creation of new Chapters, the Adeptus Terra do. And logically, their are more Imperial Fists than there are Blood Angel successors. Without a Codex: Imperial Fists, they simply haven't been listed.

The Forge World book which featured the Raven Guard for instance, listed about ten names as possible Raven Guard successors.

shadowhawk2008
28-12-2010, 12:06
anaziel was chapter master until much much after second founding going by your previous comment

Lord_Crull
28-12-2010, 12:09
Lord_Crull

In a conflict between a codex and a Black library book you're welcome to choose which source of background you prefer to believe. You've chosen the Black Library book.


No, the black Library book expands on the detail in this case. Two sentences in the Codex is quite vague.


With regard to Corinh you may not like the older background but it hasn't been superseded and the Third ed background regarding detachments from six chapters doesn't exclude it.


Actually it has nothing to do with me dislking the older backgorund or not, we have more versions of it being differently.

And no, detatchments is not the full chapter.


When Dorn finally gave up Salamanders stood with him through that decision also. Wolves just left the building, threw the Codex out of the window and did what they pleased.

Where is this stated? What happened to Russ and Vulkan's Legions beyond reducing them to a smaller size was never really elaborated on. The Salamanders noticiable contain a large amoutn of non-Codex things.

Really Dorn's descision to make the Fists into a fully Codex chapter appears to be his decision, given that the other chapters got away with various different versions of it.


Why would he not? Iron Cage happened after Dorn had already rolled over and agreed to go by Guillimans plan. Actually Iron Cage happened exactly because Dorn had agreed to go by Guillimans plan... After all the 'collective pain' needed to cleanse the Chapter was decided by Dorn to be an Iron Warriors' fortress, the Iron Cage. The Imperial Fists had suffered staggering losses, but they had proved their loyalty to the Emperor and cleansed themselves of earlier failures.


Actually Guilliman was stated as begging to aid Dorn and indicating that he did not want him to go alone in the Iron Warrior IA. That does not speak of a man he wants his brother to go alone.

Iron Warriors IA


Roboute Guilliman pleaded with Dorn to let him help but just as Perturabo planned, Dorn was arrogant enough to undertake the mission alone



After Iron Cage Dorn split the remains of his chapter and then spent two decades to rebuild his chapter exactly like Guilliman wanted. When Iron Cage started to go wrong Guilliman did not know how it would end. There was a very real risk that if they did not interfere Imperial Fists would survive, but Dorn would die, leading to Sigismund taking over... and then Guilliman would be back to square one bashing heads against Sigismund who was know to be a die-hard, codex-be-damned, I-R-Emperors-Champion-so-no-one-orders-me-around fellow.

Nah, a Primarch should be > a normal Astartes in such matters. In fact Sigsmund's postion on the codex was not stated.



For a start, you are entirely ignoring that the company is "comprised almost entirely" of Ultramarines, therefore it is not entirely Ultramarines.


Except the earlier passage has it normally as almost entirely Ultramarines. It's even mentioned that sometimes other sucessors squads have to come in, but here it's indicated that it's mostly a primarily Ultramarine operation.


Also, and I'll admit that this is a fine and easily-missed point of English, the clause "alongside which stand a number of detachments from the chapter's successors" is actually referring to the "Ultramarines squads", and not to "the force". It's a singular/plural thing.

"...the force" is a singular noun, while the "Ultramarines squads" and the "detachments from the chapter's successors" are plural nouns. For the second plural noun to be referring to the singular noun requires the use of a plural verb - in this case it would be "stands". The fact that the sentence uses a singular verb "stand" means that it can only link the two plural nouns. It's complicated and ridiculous, but that's the English language for you!

Basically, the sentence as written says that the successor chapter forces stand alongside the Ultramarines squads within the structure of the Honour Company.

I'm afriad I'm going to have to disagree here. If it was almost entirely Ultramariens then there would be no point in mentioning ''detatchments'', like they meant something.



1) They are being rewarded for being good boys and not raising fuss during Codex Astartes Crisis

2) They are somehow forging the testing results so even High Lords don't know what deviant mutants they are...

Or it could have been before most of the geneseed problems where discovered.

Polaria
28-12-2010, 12:17
If you're suggested Guilliman needed Dorn around to keep Sigismund in line... I think that kind of insults all three parties involved - Guilliman, being Lord Commander of the Imperium, Dorn for now being Sigismund's nursemaid, and Sigismund himself for breaking the spirit of what Dorn wanted, which was to show the "Imperial Fists" were loyal - hence their ongoing crusade of atonement.

Guilliman wasn't stupid. He wanted to build and Empire out of the ashes of Horus Heresy. He wanted the Empire be built his way. So yes, first Dorn was a liability because he was against Guillimans plan. After Dorn finally came over to Guillimans side he was no longer a liability, but instead a valuable asset. After all, Ultramarines were not big enough to form an Empire on their own. They needed the other legions, but they needed them alive and loyal to Guillimans vision.

Look at it this way, if Guilliman had let Dorn commit a mass-suicide of Imperial Fists he would lose a whole legion that had already agreed to follow his plan, the Iron Warriors would keep their planet and, eventually, Guilliman would have to find someone else to conquer Iron Cage or sacrifice his belowed Ultramarines in it... Like I said the man wasn't stupid.

As for Dorn being Sigismunds nursemaid... Well, I think the results speak for themselves. Sigismund was given a chapter of his own and behold, they threw codex right out of the window the same second and resulting Black Templars are nothing like Guilliman wanted. This might have been exactly what Dorn intended, but it was definitely not in Guillimans interest.

Lord_Crull
28-12-2010, 12:26
Guilliman wasn't stupid. He wanted to build and Empire out of the ashes of Horus Heresy. He wanted the Empire be built his way.


How odd, given that Guilliman appearantly was described in the Index Astartes as leading the Ultramarines for the next hunderd years before getting poisoned. That does not sound like Empire-building.

If he was ruling the entire Imperium of mankind in secret, he would not be leading his chapter in the field for the next hunderd years.


After Dorn finally came over to Guillimans side he was no longer a liability, but instead a valuable asset. After all, Ultramarines were not big enough to form an Empire on their own. They needed the other legions, but they needed them alive and loyal to Guillimans vision.


Except that falls apart when we look at Chapters like the Space Wolves and Salamanders, who got away with alot of Non-Codex stuff and the Wolves where noted to retain a good amount of political influence afterwords.


Look at it this way, if Guilliman had let Dorn commit a mass-suicide of Imperial Fists he would lose a whole legion that had already agreed to follow his plan, the Iron Warriors would keep their planet and, eventually, Guilliman would have to find someone else to conquer Iron Cage or sacrifice his belowed Ultramarines in it... Like I said the man wasn't stupid.


Actually the Iron Cage was strategically worthless, it was mentioned in the Iron Warrriors IA as essentially beign a giant trap.

IA Iron Warriors


The Eternal Fortress was a sophisticated trap. At its centre was a keep sitting in the middle of twenty square miles of bunkers, towers, minefields, trenches, razorwire, tank traps and redoubts. Radiating out from the keep in the shape of an eight-pointed star were underground tunnels that connected the surface fortifications. All the entrances to the underground network were concealed and the keep itself was a decoy of no real value. Most fortifications are limited by the need to protect something. The Eternal Fortress was twenty square miles of killing ground.

And Guilliman did throw his Ultramarines in there to extract the Fists (Who, from reading the IA, might possibly not be the full Legion, just the die-hards.)

IA Imperial Fists


Dorn knew that many of his Battle Brothers did not wish to found new Chapters as the Ultramarines were eager to do. There would be far too many left for one of the new thousand strong Chapters. Leaving Phalanx, he led these die-hards against the Iron Warriors in their lair.

This passage implies it was just part of the Legion.


As for Dorn being Sigismunds nursemaid... Well, I think the results speak for themselves. Sigismund was given a chapter of his own and behold, they threw codex right out of the window the same second and resulting Black Templars are nothing like Guilliman wanted.

Actually we don't know that. We don't know how the Templars organization came to be after the Heresy or what Sigsmund did with it.


This might have been exactly what Dorn intended, but it was definitely not in Guillimans interest.

Given the fact that the Salamanders and the Space Wolves got their codex divergences just fine. I think as long as the Templars where at 1000 intially, Guilliman would not have cared.

Index Astartes: Codex Astartes indicates that the primary objective of the Codex was to prevent the problems of the Heresy.


The Horus Heresy had revealed weaknesses in the geneseed of several Space Marine Legions which had been exaggerated by the accelerated zygote harvesting techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength. The powers of Chaos exploited this growing physical and mental corruption to turn Horus’s troops against the Emperor. The prime objective of the new Codex Astartes was to recognise and expunge these weaknesses.

And if Guilliman really wanted to rebuild the Imperium in his image, he was remarkable lax about his rules.


The Chapters that rigidly follow the recommendations of the Codex Astartes are sometimes referred to as Codex Chapters. These Space Marines adhere to the Codex as the model for their organisation, identification markings and tactical doctrine. Of all the Codex Chapters the most famous is the Ultramarines, the Chapter of Roboute Guilliman himself, and many of the other Codex Chapters are descended from their genetic line.

Most Chapters, however, do not stick so rigidly to the Codex patterns laid down either for organisation, tactical roles or other processes. Many Chapters are largely organised according to the Codex but are further shaped by their home world and the personality of their Primarch. The Blood Angels and Dark Angels are prime examples of this. A small number of Chapters are vastly different from the Codex, and owe nothing at all to it. The most famous of these ‘wild’ Chapters are the Space Wolves, whose strongwilled Primarch, Leman Russ, moulded his Chapter very much in his own image irrespective of other influences.

Here the Codex is referred to as recommendations and then it ntoes that most Chapters don't follow the Codex exactly. It then notes that Russ did not follow it at all.

In far, for the entire article, the actual Codex Astartes( Combat doctrine, tactics, organization) is referred seperately than the reduction of numbers during the Second Founding.

Lowmans
28-12-2010, 13:04
Lord_Crull

I disagree - Chapters Due contradicts the codex IMHO.

Old Fluff states the whole chapter would be present at Corinh.

As I say there are a number of interpretations which can be made from the background - there isn't a 'right' one!

Polaria
28-12-2010, 13:06
How odd, given that Guilliman appearantly was described in the Index Astartes as leading the Ultramarines for the next hunderd years before getting poisoned. That does not sound like Empire-building.

Primarch Roboute Guilliman, after the Horus Heresy, took command of the entirety of the Imperial armed forces and took the title Lord Commander of the Imperium in order to stabilise the Imperium and begin the reforms for which he is famous. He was the only person in the history of the Imperium to control all of the Imperial armed forces (before this, the Imperial war machine was administered by the War Council). The Lord Commander of the Imperium was one of the High Lords of Terra during its use. (Codex: Ultramarines, 2nd ed.)




If he was ruling the entire Imperium of mankind in secret, he would not be leading his chapter in the field for the next hunderd years.

Yeah, like Emperor didn't rule the Imperium and lead troops in field... Oh, wait...




Actually the Iron Cage was strategically worthless, it was mentioned in the Iron Warrriors IA as essentially beign a giant trap.

So basically what you are saying is Dron was stupid as hell and only wanted to commit a mass suicide? Okay, but it still doesn't change the fact that Guilliman probably didn't want to kill off Fists now that they were on his side...




And if Guilliman really wanted to rebuild the Imperium in his image, he was remarkable lax about his rules.

Or he wasn't stupid. Considering that unveiling Codex Astartes almost caused a new civil war how much more could he think he could get away with?

Also, looking at the results (60% of all marines are still his geneseed and the chapters that didn't go with his rules are a small minority) he didn't actually do a bad job.

Lord_Crull
28-12-2010, 13:15
Primarch Roboute Guilliman, after the Horus Heresy, took command of the entirety of the Imperial armed forces and took the title Lord Commander of the Imperium in order to stabilise the Imperium and begin the reforms for which he is famous. He was the only person in the history of the Imperium to control all of the Imperial armed forces (before this, the Imperial war machine was administered by the War Council). The Lord Commander of the Imperium was one of the High Lords of Terra during its use. (Codex: Ultramarines, 2nd ed.)


Susposedly. It's noted in the same source that the Ultramarines believe this, but it's not flat out confirmed. Or at least that's how it was last time I checked my copy.



Yeah, like Emperor didn't rule the Imperium and lead troops in field... Oh, wait...


Actually the Emperor's role seemed to be more of a strategic role. He only appeared to go out intothe field of battle occasionally. Plus the Emperor is probably superior to Guilliman in that sort of thing anyway.



So basically what you are saying is Dron was stupid as hell and only wanted to commit a mass suicide? Okay, but it still doesn't change the fact that Guilliman probably didn't want to kill off Fists now that they were on his side...


Actually no. If the Fists there where all the die hards then Guilliman would only benefit from seeing them all dead. Yet he threw his own Legion to rescue them.



Or he wasn't stupid. Considering that unveiling Codex Astartes almost caused a new civil war how much more could he think he could get away with?


Actually much of the blame for the threat of civil war can also be found with Dorn, who also escalated things and insulted Guilliman. I don't think Guilliman could have anticipated his brother's reactions perfectly anyway.

Also, the Codex Astartes was introduced at the behest of the High Lords. Both the Index Astarteas and the Insignium Astartes mention this.

Index Astartes: Codex Astartes:


The newly created High Lords established the organisation of the Imperium that remains familiar to this day. The first High Lords laid down the structure by which the Adeptus Terra operates, and described the feudal responsibilities and duties of planetary lords. One of their most important accomplishments was the reorganisation of the Imperium’s armed forces. This task was undertaken almost singlehandedly by the Primarch of the Ultramarine Legion of Space Marines, Roboute Guilliman, who quickly and efficiently codified the structure of the Imperial Guard, the Fleet and the Space Marines.

Insignium Astartes


In the wake of the Horus Heresy the newly formed ruling council of the Imperium, the High Lords of Terra, set about rebuilding and repairing the damage wrought during this terrible civil war. In most need of reorganising and restructuring were the devastated Space Marine Legions as these great armies had borne the brunt of the treachery done by the Warmaster Horus and his traitors. The High Lords tasked the Ultramarines Primarch Roboute Guilliman with the job of reordering the Imperial military forces. His first duty was to revise the organisation of the Space Marines and to codify their institutions, doctrines and armorials. His conclusions became the almost mythic book known as the Codex Astartes, a work so important its contents still form the basis of Space Marine organisation and tactics ten thousand years after it was originally compiled.


After the traitors of Horus and been defeated and banished the High Lords of Terra decreed that never again should so many Space Marines fall under the sway of one man, however noble his intent.


Also, looking at the results (60% of all marines are still his geneseed and the chapters that didn't go with his rules are a small minority) he didn't actually do a bad job.

And most of those don't follow the Codex exactly or do anything beyond serving the Imperium. And Guilliman himself was frozen in a stasis tube, yet the Imperium still continues.



I disagree - Chapters Due contradicts the codex IMHO.


You can disagree all you want. In the meantime I shall go with what GW wrote down and expanded on.



Old Fluff states the whole chapter would be present at Corinh.


Old fluff states nothing of the sort apart from a wargear card that was contridicted by multiple other sources.



As I say there are a number of interpretations which can be made from the background - there isn't a 'right' one!

That's your opinion. I'm just going with what GW wrote down.

Polaria
28-12-2010, 14:41
Susposedly. It's noted in the same source that the Ultramarines believe this, but it's not flat out confirmed. Or at least that's how it was last time I checked my copy.

Very few things are flat out confirmed. There is several ways to interpret the sources and some of them are conflicting. Like Imperial Fists on Iron Cage. Some sources say Dorn deliberately lead ALL of his legion there as it was supposed to be their last great moment together before breakup. You say he might have only lead the die hards... Conflicting sources.

My wild conspiracy theory is based on the end results and the possibilities how it came to be. It is pretty hard to deny that Ultramarines are far more powerfull in many ways than any other of the original legions. 60% or more of current chapters are Guillimans geneseed. Codex Astartes is used by vast majority of chapters and those that deviate from it are looked funny. Ultramarines have a whole sector to govern and huge army to back it up. Last chapter that was NOT Ultramarines who tried to take over a whole sector for themselves got blasted out of space (see Badab War). Ultramar itself is a major religious center and Roboute Guillimans memory is honored by far wider circle of followers than any other primarch. These are the facts written explicitly down in multiple GW sources.

Nothing really explains how it came to be in conclusive way so there are several chances:

- Blind Luck. Ultramarines just happened to be in right place at the right time. They avoided all the bad things and got pure gold everywhere they went.
- Pure Awesomeness. Ultramarines really are as awesome as their PR officer says. All the other chapters are mere children with defect geneseed and bad temperaments.
- Conspiracy. Roboute Guilliman was a strategic genious, he had a vision of what he wanted to do and he implemented it quite ruthlessly.

My theory is based on the last option since it makes most sense when all factors are considered. Sure, there are holes in that theory, but there are holes in the other two theories also.

Lord_Crull
28-12-2010, 14:56
Very few things are flat out confirmed. There is several ways to interpret the sources and some of them are conflicting. Like Imperial Fists on Iron Cage. Some sources say Dorn deliberately lead ALL of his legion there as it was supposed to be their last great moment together before breakup. You say he might have only lead the die hards... Conflicting sources.


Not quite. the Imperial Fists IA says die hards. The Iron Warrioras IA is actually rather vague. It says that the ''rest of the legion' followed the intital forces in, but that does no specify if that was the Legion before or after the making of the Crimson Fists or Templars.


It is pretty hard to deny that Ultramarines are far more powerfull in many ways than any other of the original legions. 60% or more of current chapters are Guillimans geneseed.

How does that benefit the Ultramarines or make them more powerful? Barring rare exceptions, new chapters can only be raised by order of the High Lords, and that's done because the Ulramarine geneseed is the most functional and pure of all the chapters they are willing the trust. Everyone else has some problem except for the Dark angels.


Codex Astartes is used by the majority of chapters and those that deviate from it are looked funny.

No they don't. The Index Astartes article notes that most chapters don't follow it 100% and the Adeptus Terra can't enforce it absolutely.

Index Astartes: Codex Astartes


Most Chapters, however, do not stick so rigidly to the Codex patterns laid down either for organisation, tactical roles or other processes. Many Chapters are largely organised according to the Codex but are further shaped by their home world and the personality of their Primarch. The Blood Angels and Dark Angels are prime examples of this. A small number of Chapters are vastly different from the Codex, and owe nothing at all to it. The most famous of these ‘wild’ Chapters are the Space Wolves, whose strongwilled Primarch, Leman Russ, moulded his Chapter very much in his own image irrespective of other influences.

The Adeptus Terra has never felt it necessary to enforce the Codex absolutely. Indeed it is doubtful whether it could. However, with subsequent foundings they have always favoured the Ultramarines' gene-seed and created new Codex Chapters from their line. With the passage of time, some of these Chapters have subsequently strayed from the strict letter of the Codex, introducing new variations but remaining broadly faithful to the principles laid down by Roboute Guilliman many thousands of years before.

Even amoung Guilliman's sucessors there is deviation.

Insignium Astartes


The vast majority of the newly created Chapters took up the Codex Astartes and its doctrines as their guiding law. These Chapters were and are still known as the Codex Chapters. They pride themselves on following the ancient text and applying its principles of warcraft and devotion to the Emperor. In the 41st Millennium there are relatively few of the original Codex Chapters surviving as they have been either destroyed in battle or disbanded. Through the ages other Chapters have developed organisations and heraldries that are so variant with the Codex that they can no longer be considered as such. In truth most Chapters retain the basic organisation and markings or something close to the original though only a few can claim to be Codex Chapters.

This is supported here as well. Some of the original Codex Chapters survive, others change and do new things.


Ultramarines have a whole sector to govern and huge army to back it up.

No they don't. They have a sub-sector at best with the PDF and a defense fleet. It's nowhere near the size of a sector.


Last chapter that was NOT Ultramarines who tried to take over a whole sector for themselves got blasted out of space (see Badab War).

Except it was a sub-sector system that existed prior to the Ultramarines ever being formed and before the Great Crusade, they inherited it.

And there is nothing in the codex that prevents Chapters from taking more than one homeworld or having a PDF. The Chapter Master entry even notes this.

Plus the whole Huron thing has outside intervention hinted in it.


Ultramar itself is a major religious center and Roboute Guillimans memory is honored by far wider circle of followers than any other primarch.

Actually no. The 3rd Edition Blood angels codex states that it's ''Sanguinius alone'' who stands among the Emperor int he cathredrals.

Guilliman is a pilgramage route, true, but it seems more of a tourist thing. There is nothing stating that he is more popular than other Primarchs.


These are the facts written explicitly down in multiple GW sources.


No, check your sources again.



Nothing really explains how it came to be in conclusive way so there are several chances:


Actually they all do. It's all explained and given reasons in various fluff sources.



- Blind Luck. Ultramarines just happened to be in right place at the right time. They avoided all the bad things and got pure gold everywhere they went.
- Pure Awesomeness. Ultramarines really are as awesome as their PR officer says. All the other chapters are mere children with defect geneseed and bad temperaments.
- Conspiracy. Roboute Guilliman was a strategic genious, he had a vision of what he wanted to do and he implemented it quite ruthlessly.


It actually is the first thing. That's how it's stated so far.

Lowmans
28-12-2010, 22:58
Lord_Crull like Nagash_66 I give up on you.

You cannot see that there are multiple possible interpretations of the background, it seems from your post history, in any circumstance! Despite conflicting and incomplete sources.
Good luck to you.

Lord_Crull
28-12-2010, 23:12
Lord_Crull like Nagash_66 I give up on you.

You cannot see that there are multiple possible interpretations of the background, it seems from your post history, in any circumstance! Despite conflicting and incomplete sources.
Good luck to you.

I can see the multiple possible interpretations of the background. However I just go with what GW wrote in any case.

And I don't think the Third Edition Marine Codex is ''incomplete''

Lowmans
28-12-2010, 23:20
For goodness sake......
That would be YOUR INTERPRETATION of what has been written!
:)
Good night

Lord_Crull
28-12-2010, 23:37
For goodness sake......
That would be YOUR INTERPRETATION of what has been written!
:)
Good night

I'm afriad I have to disagree. I've seen only one real alternative here.

TheLaughingGod
29-12-2010, 03:40
I'm afriad I have to disagree. I've seen only one real alternative here.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to quote myself here.


Some people are just stuck in their own interpretations of things and no amount of logic, rational debate or factual evidence will convince them otherwise. You just gotta know when to bow out gracefully when arguing with those people, because if you're lucky, they're the only ones who think they're right, while the rest of the world can see their folly for what it is.

You might want to watch the authoritarian tone there.
You're bordering on aggressively disrespectful, and frankly, your arguments aren't any more valid than anyone else's here. If anything, you're in the vocal minority.

Just some friendly advice before this spins out of control and the mods come through.

EDIT: (The irony is not lost on me) You might also think about not editing every single post you make after you made it to change your wording or add additional content. It's a bit of a forum faux pas. Just wait until they've made their counter point and post again.
(And at the very least, you could indicate what's been changed with your edits)

Lord_Crull
29-12-2010, 04:00
You might want to watch the authoritarian tone there.


What authoritarian tone?



You're bordering on aggressively disrespectful, and frankly, your arguments aren't any more valid than anyone else's here. If anything, you're in the vocal minority.


How I am disrespectful at all? I don't recall anything I've said that's disrespectful. I don't really take kindly to others forcing their opinions on me.

And I don't care if I'm in the minority or not. If I see something in error I will call it out.



Just some friendly advice before this spins out of control and the mods come through.


I would take your advice, except I honestly think I don't need it. If anyone has been offended by me, then yes, I apologize, but otherwise I don't see any problem at all.


EDIT: (The irony is not lost on me) You might also think about not editing every single post you make after you made it to change your wording or add additional content. It's a bit of a forum faux pas. Just wait until they've made their counter point and post again.
(And at the very least, you could indicate what's been changed with your edits)

No, I go back to fix spelling and add quotes or to respond to multiple posts. It's how I've always done it for years and it's not going to change anytime soon. Sorry.

Ka Faraq Gatri
29-12-2010, 09:43
Except the earlier passage has it normally as almost entirely Ultramarines. It's even mentioned that sometimes other sucessors squads have to come in, but here it's indicated that it's mostly a primarily Ultramarine operation.

I'm afriad I'm going to have to disagree here. If it was almost entirely Ultramariens then there would be no point in mentioning ''detatchments'', like they meant something.

...what?

Seriously, what?

My point - which you have studiously ignored - is that you misinterpreted the passage that you quoted, so talking about an earlier passage is so irreleveant that it borders on the deliberately obtuse, then steps over that border in a blatant invasion of nonsense-land.

You also manage to reinforce my point while trying to simultaneously refute and ignore it - the Honour Company is almost entirely Ultramarines. That means - 'cos you seem to be missing this obvious point - NOT entirely Ultramarines. Which inevitably leads to "includes non-Ultramarines".

And your second paragraph quoted above actually makes no sense. I've read it twelve times, and it still makes no sense, by itself or in the context of my earlier comments.

It is clear that you are blatantly ignoring the points that myself and others on this thread are making in favour of a hideously blinkered view of events that, sadly, doesn't even make sense as a narrative in its own right. With that in mind, I'm quitting this thread and leaving you to your own, slightly scary, devices.

Lord_Crull
29-12-2010, 12:26
You also manage to reinforce my point while trying to simultaneously refute and ignore it - the Honour Company is almost entirely Ultramarines. That means - 'cos you seem to be missing this obvious point - NOT entirely Ultramarines. Which inevitably leads to "includes non-Ultramarines".


No, I never denied that it did not include Non-Ultramarines. But that does nt tchange the fact that it is a primarily Ultramarine operation. Just because there are squads of sucessors does not change that fact.



And your second paragraph quoted above actually makes no sense. I've read it twelve times, and it still makes no sense, by itself or in the context of my earlier comments.


How so?



It is clear that you are blatantly ignoring the points that myself and others on this thread are making in favour of a hideously blinkered view of events that, sadly, doesn't even make sense as a narrative in its own right. devices.

Nope, I've read them and I've considered them, but I'm not convinced by your opinion. I hold a different one.


With that in mind, I'm quitting this thread and leaving you to your own, slightly scary, devices.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

nagash66
29-12-2010, 15:27
Actually no. The 3rd Edition Blood angels codex states that it's ''Sanguinius alone'' who stands among the Emperor int he cathredrals.




This goes even more back to 2 ed, and i quote:

"Of all the Primarchs of the Space Marines it is Sanguinius whose temples rise aside those of the Emperor, and whose name is cherished by ordinary folk in gratitude for the life that was taken and the life that was spared. Alone of all the Primarchs his memory is honoured by a sanctified day of celebration, the Sanguinala, when Adepts across the galaxy wear upon their breast the red badge of the Lord Angel." 2nd edition Wargear Book

Lord Crull is 100% in this, Sanguinius is the most famous and popular primarch to the common imperial citizen.

Lord Malice
29-12-2010, 16:41
Okay, lets go back into 40K history a bit...

What else can you expect from a Chapter whose motto is 'Our Presence Remakes The Past'?

It's interesting to read the Index Astartes article from White Dwarf 97 which says that the Chapter Ultra-Marines was founded on the first day of the thirty-second Millennium, making it a Third Founding Chapter given the number 13 formerly assigned to one of the Treacher Legions banished to the Eye of Terror as well as the gene-sperm, zygotes, rituals and other paraphenalia of indoctrination of the banished 13th Legion.

If you were to view the slow re-writing of the background by Games Workshop as an in-universe re-writing of history then it sheds a whole different light on the Ultramarines. I forget just where I read it now but in some of the earlier background the Codex Imperialis/Codex Astartes was often credited to Lynol Jacobsen/Jonsen the founder of the Dark Angels as well as a myriad of Imperial Officers and soldiers of the Imperial Army. BAck then it was not the sole work of Roboute Gulliman, whom, incidentily was quite dead as his bones rested in the Reclusiam on Macragge. Even Macragge has gone from being a world almost covered in dust oceans to an icy wasteland.

Even the Primarchs themselves went from being Imperial Agents who had founded a Chapter to demi-gods. If viewed in terms of in-universe re-writing of history all of these things add up to create a picture quite different from the one presented in the current Edition of 40K where the background as written is usually presumed to be a simple ret-con of the background rather than anything more interesting.

Lord_Crull
29-12-2010, 16:53
What else can you expect from a Chapter whose motto is 'Our Presence Remakes The Past'?


It is? Was this in First Edition? Otherwise I don't ever recall the Ultramairnes having this. From what research I've done, the inscription is on the Chapter Baner. It's not the Chapter motto, which would be ''Courage and Honor'' since Second Edition.

Lord Malice
29-12-2010, 17:16
Courage and Honour is the Chapter's battlecry but the motto as written on the Chapter Banner is Our Presence Remakes The Past. It might not be the Chapter's only motto but it is significant given its presence on a Chapter Banner.

TheLaughingGod
29-12-2010, 22:02
Courage and Honour is the Chapter's battlecry but the motto as written on the Chapter Banner is Our Presence Remakes The Past. It might not be the Chapter's only motto but it is significant given its presence on a Chapter Banner.

There was a fan idea a while back that the True 13th Legion was the Crimson Fists and Guillieman was THEIR Primarch, but the High Lords decided to make the Astartes easier to control, forged the Codex and made the Ultramarines their pawns in the far reach of the Galaxy. I enjoyed that idea a lot better.

LokkoRex
29-12-2010, 22:49
so did i, god i loved that theory, it was so awesome.

Lord Malice
29-12-2010, 23:10
Yes, the Orwellian view of 40K, it makes things a lot more interesting I find. It doesn't even need a huge leap of the imagination either: we know the wounds duffered by the Emperor during His battle with Horus and yet the artwork shows the Emperor looking nothing like He should so therefore, with an Orwellian view, the person on the Golden Throne is not the Emperor.

The Eye of Terror was warp space anomoly that 'opened' every so often and allowed passage between it and the outside galaxy, on the whole it wasn't such a bad place, certainly not the daemon infested gateway to hell it is now.

There're loads of good ideas for that approach to the background.

Londinium
30-12-2010, 00:16
There was a fan idea a while back that the True 13th Legion was the Crimson Fists and Guillieman was THEIR Primarch, but the High Lords decided to make the Astartes easier to control, forged the Codex and made the Ultramarines their pawns in the far reach of the Galaxy. I enjoyed that idea a lot better.

Good lord that's a stupid idea even for fanfic :shifty:

nagash66
30-12-2010, 00:37
What else can you expect from a Chapter whose motto is 'Our Presence Remakes The Past'?


Never knew that, looks like Mat Ward really took it too heart when he wrote the codex tho.






Good lord that's a stupid idea even for fanfic :shifty:

While i too do not believe the idea hold any merit, simply calling it stupid while giving nothing else to the topic ( not even a good solid derail idea:D) is in itself more stupid then any idea ever presented on war seer ( tho i also do it from time to time:eek:).

Lord Malice
30-12-2010, 01:09
Never knew that, looks like Mat Ward really took it too heart when he wrote the codex tho.

Well the Games Designers have been banging on about the holy grail of Games Design which is Game Balance and I remember back when 3rd Ed came out that the changes to the game itself seemed useful up to a point but it is clear now to see Game Balance as merely the way in which armies are nerfed so that you have to purchase more models; when I first started playing I used two five man combat squads or just made them one full squad of marines and that was enough to have a great time at the saturday mega-battle but then you had to have two troops and a commander and now a crappy plastic commander costs (and I just checked the price and cannot believe it!!!) £13.50!? What. The. Fudge. £13.50. Unbelievable.

The Space Marines should have been made more elite and not just turned into Mary Sues. It's a shame how things have progressed. Oh for the days of 2nd Ed.




£13.50... I'm so glad I can make my own marines.

TheLaughingGod
30-12-2010, 04:57
Good lord that's a stupid idea even for fanfic :shifty:

Wait, so something clever, grimdark, orwellian and sinister is stupid, but a whole space marine empire of perfect, pure, knights exemplar full of happy beloved citizens who adore their regent and nothing bad ever happens is not stupid?

What game are you playing?

Edit: Also, I hate how people are mis-using the term "Mary Sue" rampantly.

Ka Faraq Gatri
30-12-2010, 07:46
...a whole space marine empire of perfect, pure, knights exemplar full of happy beloved citizens who adore their regent and nothing bad ever happens...

What game are YOU playing? "My Little Pony 40,000"?

TheLaughingGod
30-12-2010, 09:39
What game are YOU playing? "My Little Pony 40,000"?

Dude. Actually READ the Space Marines Codex. That is literally how the Empire of Ultramar is portrayed. Everyone loves Calgar because he's so great and the Ultramarines are just and fair rulers, adored by all.

I wish that part was hyperbole

Ka Faraq Gatri
30-12-2010, 12:24
Dude. Actually READ the Space Marines Codex. That is literally how the Empire of Ultramar is portrayed. Everyone loves Calgar because he's so great and the Ultramarines are just and fair rulers, adored by all.

I wish that part was hyperbole

Codices are essentially propaganda for their army. Mat Ward - who is not, as some like to portray him, a drooling blue-clad fanboy - understands this perfectly, hence the tone of the Ultramarines sections of the book. Even then, you are somewhat overstating it.

Besides, even if it was like that, it would be positively chilling to see an empire where everyone is happy and joyous...ruled over by a thousand giant supermen who could kill you with a gentle shove.

nagash66
30-12-2010, 13:29
Codices are essentially propaganda for their army. Mat Ward - who is not, as some like to portray him, a drooling blue-clad fanboy - understands this perfectly, hence the tone of the Ultramarines sections of the book. Even then, you are somewhat overstating it.


This would only be true if it was written in a in universe perspective, GW has for many many years used this type of narrative to give us the shady parts of 40k background.

Mat Ward does not understand this perfectly and apparently nether do you, the Ultramarine codex is written as solid word of god facts. Its not the in universe history of the Ultramarines as written by them, nether is it a outsider looking in.

It is word of god fact, hence why it received so much hate. Now if Ward had done what you suggest and made it into in universe propaganda or shady history telling it would have been one of the greatest codex in many years, instead it is one of the worst.

Idaan
30-12-2010, 14:52
It is written with an in-universe slant. Otherwise how do you explain that the Fall of Damnos story in Marine codex differs from the Rulebook description of it? I believe Ward understands it - his fault lies in his terrible writing skills for me - but unfortunately most of the fans don't. And then you have people wondering why in two different stories by the same author Marines variously defeat 3000 Dark Eldar without losses or are killed by single bolter shells/lasgun fire.

TrooperTino
30-12-2010, 16:23
Can't it be that the "Ultramiarine" Honor guard at the eye of terror is an ultramarine-force prior by its name? And over the decades it became more of an ultramarine-and their-succesor-chapters honor guard? Come on guys... its an "honor-guard"... so its not really a part of the chapter organisation... maybe there is allways an ultramarine in command, maybe it is not that strict and sometimes there isn't even one Ultramarine in the honor guard at all (but its still called ultramarine honor guard at that time)

And I think if the whole chapter gets called back to maccragge, that doesn't mean every last one of the ultramarines, but every one who is able to get back in time to help in the actual crisis.

And the chapter banner will be used even if there might be a few marines not being present.
I mean its a bit unrealistic:
"We fight the Tyranids... lets roll out the chapter banner!"
"No we can't do this."
"Why"
"Joe and Bob are on vacation, so we are missing two men and we can use the chapter banner only if EVERY ONE of our 1000 brothers is present!"
"OH damn! OK so use the nearly-whole-chapter-banner!"

And my last 2 cents to the topic:
I read about the crimson fists theory once and quit liked it.... the imperium is founded on lies and even their poster marines are a lie... holding the primarch of the CF hostage in the name of the high lords of terra

Lord_Crull
30-12-2010, 16:40
It is written with an in-universe slant. Otherwise how do you explain that the Fall of Damnos story in Marine codex differs from the Rulebook description of it?

Honestly? I don't see much difference. The rulebook explains that the Necrons steamrolled the PDF and the Ultramarines launched a set of daring raids to withdraw the survivors. That's essentially what happened in the Ultramarines account. Only the raids where expanded on in the Ultramarines account. Nothing in the accounts really contridict each other.

Drasanil
30-12-2010, 17:24
*snip* Mat Ward - who is not, as some like to portray him, a drooling blue-clad fanboy - *snip*

Come Again? Perhaps you haven't properly considered the evidence? (http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb206/Vaktathi/1292972246864.png)

Hive Mind 33
30-12-2010, 17:47
Wait, so something clever, grimdark, orwellian and sinister is stupid, but a whole space marine empire of perfect, pure, knights exemplar full of happy beloved citizens who adore their regent and nothing bad ever happens is not stupid?

What game are you playing?

Edit: Also, I hate how people are mis-using the term "Mary Sue" rampantly.

Its not clever, grimdark, orwellian, or sinister, it is just stupid. Can you show any in universe evidence to prove it? You can not take something that is pure trash and pretend that it is anything but. Crimson Fists are a second founding chapter of Rogal Dorn, i can point to in universe writing for that. I can also point out that Guilliman is the primarch of the Ultramarines. Thus showing it is one of the dumbest ideas about warhammer 40k.

Polaria
30-12-2010, 17:55
Come Again? Perhaps you haven't properly considered the evidence? (http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb206/Vaktathi/1292972246864.png)

Oh. My. God. It was worse than I thought... Especially the part how "all marines want to be Ultramarines"

This really puts my Great Ultramarine Conspiracy to whole new light...

Lord_Crull
30-12-2010, 18:09
Oh. My. God. It was worse than I thought... Especially the part how "all marines want to be Ultramarines"

This really puts my Great Ultramarine Conspiracy to whole new light...

Well if Ward wrote it nobody seems to really be following it.

For example, 10 Raven Guard show up in Chapter's Due. Their Captain treats Calgar like an allied commander instead of a ''spiritual liege'' and the Raven Guard actually awes Uriel with his stealth and tells him that they are more suited to that sort of stuff than the Ultramarines.

Another Ultramarine shows up in Headhunted and in Exumed and he is simply treated as another member of the team.

And that's just for stories after the 5th edition Codex was published. Before that the Ultramarines interacted as equals with many other chapters.

Polaria
30-12-2010, 18:28
"Of all the thousand and more Space Marine Chapters, it is the blue-clad Ultramarines that, in the mind of countless billions of Emperor's subjects, personify everything that the Adeptus Astartes stands for
...
Across the domains of the Emperor, the Ultramarines are celebrated as heroic, virtuous, and noble defenders of Humanity, their deeds celebrated in devotional works the length and breadth of the galaxy."

~Deathwatch RPG Rulebook, p. 54

Oh, and I think Raven Guards are actually counted amongst those "exceptions with severe mutations" like Blood Angels ;)

Lord_Crull
30-12-2010, 18:31
"Of all the thousand and more Space Marine Chapters, it is the blue-clad Ultramarines that, in the mind of countless billions of Emperor's subjects, personify everything that the Adeptus Astartes stands for
...
Across the domains of the Emperor, the Ultramarines are celebrated as heroic, virtuous, and noble defenders of Humanity, their deeds celebrated in devotional works the length and breadth of the galaxy."

~Deathwatch RPG Rulebook, p. 54


.........And? That speaks of the common people seeing them as posterboys. I don't see how that affects their relationship with other Astartes.


[I]
Oh, and I think Raven Guards are actually counted amongst those "exceptions with severe mutations" like Blood Angels ;)

Actually no. The Raven Guard are a highly respected First Founding Chapter. Read Cadian Blood. The Cadians highly respect the Raven Guard and there is even a shrine world with statues of Raven Guard heroes.

In addition the Raven Guard are noted to follow the Codex rather closely in organization, but with their own twists in combat doctrine. Corax was noted as welcoming the Codex. Unlike the Blood angels, there mutation does not prevent them from following the Codex to their choosing.

In fact, most, if not all of the First Founding follow their own brand of the Codex. the only one 100% Codex alongside the Ultramarines are the Fists. The White Scars, the Iron Hands, the Salamanders, the Dark Angels, the Blood Angels and the Raven Guard all follow their own brand of the Codex suited to their needs.

Sephiroth
30-12-2010, 18:43
Codices are essentially propaganda for their army.

I don't agree.

Codices, are designed to highlight the character of the army - their strengths mostly, also possibly their weaknesses, if it adds characterful depth - but not simply be "these guys are the best thing since sliced bread and you should play them because they will totally own!". :rolleyes:

Polaria
30-12-2010, 18:59
.........And? That speaks of the common people seeing them as posterboys. I don't see how that affects their relationship with other Astartes.


Ah, I forgot you've probably not read that book. In this case, I'll explain a bit: In Deathwatch RPG one of the advantages of Ultramarines is getting special rules and leadership bonuses for leading other Marines (even from non-codex chapters) because they are held in such a high regard. In addition to this they also get reputation bonuses for interaction with all imperial organizations. The disadvantage of Ultramarines is that, I quote, "their pride can sometimes blind them to reality and make them arrogant and uncooperative when the battle would dictate they work with lesser warriors". Ruleswise the "lesser warriors" mean all other Astartes that are NOT Ultramarines.

nagash66
30-12-2010, 19:01
Come Again? Perhaps you haven't properly considered the evidence? (http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb206/Vaktathi/1292972246864.png)

You dare bring that heretical abomination of a text in these sacred halls:p

But yeah Mat Ward has admitted he is a fanboy and that the codex was meant to be codex: Ultramarine's for a while in development in that regard its easy to see why the Ultramarine fanboys will die to defend it and Ward.

Idaan
30-12-2010, 19:09
Honestly? I don't see much difference. The rulebook explains that the Necrons steamrolled the PDF and the Ultramarines launched a set of daring raids to withdraw the survivors. That's essentially what happened in the Ultramarines account. Only the raids where expanded on in the Ultramarines account. Nothing in the accounts really contridict each other.

The Marines codex doesn't mention the battleship Nobilis being destroyed in orbit and falling on the defenders' heads. A several kilometers long lump of metal making orbital entry is a pretty major dealbreaker. Also the account introduces the Dreadnought's generator somehow working as a nuke and destroying every Necron in the spaceport. Aside from the question why Marines don't just drop Dread generators from bombers to destroy all opposition, it serves to give the Marines last word and a finger to the Necrons.

Lord_Crull
30-12-2010, 19:12
Ah, I forgot you've probably not read that book. In this case, I'll explain a bit: In Deathwatch RPG one of the advantages of Ultramarines is getting special rules and leadership bonuses for leading other Marines (even from non-codex chapters) because they are held in such a high regard. In addition to this they also get reputation bonuses for interaction with all imperial organizations. The disadvantage of Ultramarines is that, I quote, "their pride can sometimes blind them to reality and make them arrogant and uncooperative when the battle would dictate they work with lesser warriors". Ruleswise the "lesser warriors" mean all other Astartes that are NOT Ultramarines.

Actually I have read the book. I wonder why they have pride as a disadvantage when they are described essentially the opposite earlier.

Deathwatch pg. 54


"The Ultramarines are rightly held as exemplars of all that a Space Marine can and should be. They are noble and virtuous, self-sacrificing and stoic, and truthful and just in thought and deed. Unlike the Battle-Brothers of some other Chapters, they are not arrogant in their dealings with the common man, and have served and died alongside warriors of every other military force in the Imperium.This attitude is instilled in the Ultramarines from a very young age, long before consideration is given to recruitment into the Chapter. The people of Macragge in particular, and of Ultramar as a whole, are raised in a culture of discipline and service."


In all of their duties, from battle to study, the Ultramarines are thorough, analytical, and attentive to every detail. They are slow to anger and rarely make a rash decision. By constant recourse to the articles of faith enshrined within the Codex Astartes, the Ultramarines are able to face any eventuality with well-practised battle drills and established doctrine.
In their dealings with Battle-Brothers from other Chapters, Ultramarines often fulfil the role of facilitator and peacemaker. While Battle Brothers of some Chapters display extremes of character, from hotheaded to taciturn, the Ultramarines are balanced in their approach, and often able to broker agreements between wildly differing points of view. This is evidenced in the fact that a high proportion of Deathwatch leaders are drawn from the Ultramarines and their successors, a fact that has more to do with their outlook and character than it does with their numerical superiority.

I note the bolded. So far this speaks of the Ultramarines own skill and charisma at tactical acumen and leadership abilities than anything else. This description is essentially the opposite behavior of their curse.

However on the Primarch's Curse, it's noted that you have to have Insanity points in order to suffer from it. In that respect those Ultramairnes who suffer from the ''pride'' curse are not really ''normal''.


The Marines codex doesn't mention the battleship Nobilis being destroyed in orbit and falling on the defenders' heads. A several kilometers long lump of metal making orbital entry is a pretty major dealbreaker.

Because that was before the Ultramarines arrived. In fact The Codex even states there where wreckage in the atmospheare and acknowledges that the Necorns have effectively gained control of the planet except for the capital.


Also the account introduces the Dreadnought's generator somehow working as a nuke and destroying every Necron in the spaceport. Aside from the question why Marines don't just drop Dread generators from bombers to destroy all opposition, it serves to give the Marines last word and a finger to the Necrons.

And? How that does change the outcome or contridict anything? The Necrons still control the rest of the planet.

nagash66
30-12-2010, 19:19
Well that just ruined the Deathwatch book for me,


"This is evidenced in the fact that a high proportion of Deathwatch leaders are drawn from the Ultramarines and their successors"

Really? I mean seriously? What next maybe the Ultramarines are the source of the Grey Knight Geneseed soon!

Lord_Crull
30-12-2010, 19:23
Well that just ruined the Deathwatch book for me,

"This is evidenced in the fact that a high proportion of Deathwatch leaders are drawn from the Ultramarines and their successors"[/QUOTE]

Really? I mean seriously? What next maybe the Ultramarines are the source of the Grey Knight Geneseed soon![/QUOTE]

That's hardly game-breaking or Mary Sue at all. A high porportion of Ultramarines are drawn to be leaders, but they are not all leaders nor are the described as the best at all in the rulebook. Each Chapter has it's own niche. The Blood Angels, Wolves and Templars are good at CC, the Dark Angels are stubbron, etc, etc. Since the Ultramarines where noted in previous edition of fluff to have good relations with Imperial organizations (Defenders of Macragge) and experiance when ruling a realm, it makes sense that they would be leaders.

Idaan
30-12-2010, 19:25
This just means that they're better at commanding, with the knowledge of tactics, strategy and logistics. It also means that they're probably worse at actual fighting, psychic powers, hit and run and all other myriad things. Being a good human resources manager doesn't make you Mary Sue.

edit: ninja'd

nagash66
30-12-2010, 19:29
If they are so great at being leaders why is it that in the only instance when their own Leader ( calgar ) was present at a major conflict alongside other chapters he ASKED another ( Dante Armageddon 2) to lead THEM:confused:

Oh that right they hadn't become the living avatar of crappy writing yet.

Sephiroth
30-12-2010, 19:33
If they are so great at being leaders why is it that in the only instance when their own Leader ( calgar ) was present at a major conflict alongside other chapters he ASKED another ( Dante Armageddon 2) to lead THEM:confused:

Because it's ******** Commander Dante. :p

Edit: Fr*ggin' was censored? What? Is that even a swear?

Lord_Crull
30-12-2010, 19:34
If they are so great at being leaders why is it that in the only instance when their own Leader ( calgar ) was present at a major conflict alongside other chapters he ASKED another ( Dante Armageddon 2) to lead THEM:confused:

Oh that right they hadn't become the living avatar of crappy writing yet.

Because it's not a hard and fast rule. True they are good at leading, but that does not mean they are the best choice all the time or that they all are good leaders. It just means they have a higher porportion of people suited to lead.

And Dante was a legend in the Imperium, over a thousand years old and one of the best commanders in the Imperium. There is nothing wrong in following his lead.

Oh, and Calgar has led two multi-chapter crusades (The Balur Crusade and the Cornithan Crusade) and Sicarius led a multi-chapter crusade. (The Ziest Crusade)

TheLaughingGod
30-12-2010, 19:35
Its not clever, grimdark, orwellian, or sinister, it is just stupid. Can you show any in universe evidence to prove it? You can not take something that is pure trash and pretend that it is anything but. Crimson Fists are a second founding chapter of Rogal Dorn, i can point to in universe writing for that. I can also point out that Guilliman is the primarch of the Ultramarines. Thus showing it is one of the dumbest ideas about warhammer 40k.

Except that in Rogue Trader the Crimson Fists were First Founding Legion and the Ultramarines were a subsequently founded Chapter.

I know you hate anything that might defame the Ultramarines or make you have to actually think past the text and the agenda of the Imperium, but there you have it.

nagash66
30-12-2010, 19:42
Because it's not a hard and fast rule. True they are good at leading, but that does not mean they are the best choice all the time or that they all are good leaders. It just means they have a higher porportion of people suited to lead.

And Dante was a legend in the Imperium, over a thousand years old and one of the best commanders in the Imperium. There is nothing wrong in following his lead.




So in point fact the Ultramarines and successor consisting as they do aproximatly 60% of ALL marines are not better at leading, they are simply not bad at it and hence if all chapter get to lead once they would BY DEFAULT lead more then avarage.

But what use logic when we can simply state they are the best at something right guys?

Whats that Bob?:higher proportion ?? Simple math makes this easy to explain and nothing special have no fear !Dont be silly Ultramarines MUST be the best at it!

And no there is no reason for them to be the best at it, there are nether more charismatic or smarter then other chapters who are not as some would say single minded ( Wolves or Templar's).

Would someone explain why they are better then Salamanders or Imperial fists then??

See i dont mind when they state someone is the best at something when there is good reason to do so ( say Vanhallans and ice world fights for example) even tho in the Imperium being the best cannot be truly said as who knows what esle is out there.

But saying Ultramarines as the best at leading just because??

Edit:Oh and if its not a
Because it's not a hard and fast rule then its not a rule at all, its just something that might happen on some occasions, a frequent occurrence which is explained by the fact that they constitute over half the marines in the galaxy.

Lord_Crull
30-12-2010, 19:51
So in point fact the Ultramarines and successor consisting as they do aproximatly 60% of ALL marines are not better at leading, they are simply not bad at it and hence if all chapter get to lead once they would BY DEFAULT lead more then avarage.


But all the Chapter does not get to lead. All Chapters send there best into the Deathwatch. And the Ultramarines generate a higher porportion of leaders because of their chapter background and experiance in logistics and tactics.


And no there is no reason for them to be the best at it, there are nether more charismatic or smarter then other chapters who are not as some would say single minded ( Wolves or Templar's).


Actually there is. The Ultramarines where always noted to relate well with other Imperial organizations even before this book. Combined with their legacy in logisitics and organization. (Their Primarch wrote and edited the book of how the Astartes fight after all) and it makes sense.


Would someone explain why they are better then Salamanders or Imperial fists then??


They are not nessecarily 100% better all the time, but on average your average Deathwatch Ultramarine member would be better at leading then the others.

The Fists have a tendency to self-sacrifice and the Salamanders have their own Promethen creed of ''slow and steady''. The Fists have the links ot other Imperial organizations, but lack the logistic and organization legacy of the Ultramarines.


But saying Ultramarines as the best at leading just because??


They in general are best at leading because of their organizational and logicistical legacy. Their Primarch was noted for his organizational skills. The Ultramarines deal with organization of an entire realm. They are noted to be level headed and slow to anger. It makes sense.

Just as the Blood Angels and Wolves are good at CC, the Black Templars good at Crusading, and the Dark Angels stubbron and hard to shift, the Ultramarines are good at organization and leading because that is their legacy and that's what they often do when interacting with other Imperial organizations.


Edit:Oh and if its not a then its not a rule at all, its just something that might happen on some occasions, a frequent occurrence which is explained by the fact that they constitute over half the marines in the galaxy.

No, the geneseed does not make you a leader. The passages refer to the organizational skill of the Ultramarines and the general temperment of them and their sucessors. It has nothing to do with numbers.

nagash66
30-12-2010, 20:11
But all the Chapter does not get to lead. All Chapters send there best into the Deathwatch

Why not? All the chapters have their own leaders and positions of command it is just as likely that they would send someone who has experience in commanding as a ultramarine and then it would come down to who is better.


And the Ultramarines generate a higher porportion of leaders because of their chapter background and experiance in logistics and tactics.

Logistics?? in the deathwatch?? This isnt a marine force out on its own having to find its own supplies.

The Inquisition would be in the position ( if anyone in the imperium is its them) to make sure they would be no logistical problems that a marine has to worry himself with.

Unless you put forward that the Inquisition forces them to provide for themselves in some kind of cruel joke?

As for the tactics are you truly serious?? IF anything the other chapters who are more open minded and would be willing to use outside the box thinking and tactics IN addition to the standard codex ones would be better here.

And before you say some of them would simply be too focused on a single tanet i put forward again the more codex chapters like Fists, Iron Hands, Salamanders and successors.


Actually there is. The Ultramarines where always noted to relate well with other Imperial organizations even before this book.

We are not talking about other Imperial organizations we are talking about leading a marine kill squad. I dont care how well they get along with the navy in this instance they work for the Inquisition they have all the clout, power and authority they will ever need.


Combined with their legacy in logisitics and organization.

Which again a death watch kill team has little to no need of i don't see how this is relevant, what is the main issue how to organize the squad into fire teams??


They are not necessarily 100% better all the time, but on average your average Deathwatch Ultramarine member would be better at leading then the others.

And again i would say why? Other then a self fulfilling argument of they lead because they are better, they are better because they lead you have said nothing to explain WHY they are better.


The Fists have the links ot other Imperial organizations, but lack the logistic and organization legacy of the Ultramarines.

So they will stand a greater chance of running low on ammo? Or that they will not organize the kill teams as well??:shifty:


in general are best at leading because of their organizational and logicistical legacy. Their Primarch was noted for his organizational skills.

Yet he dint lead anything till the Emperor and half the remaining loyal primarchs were ether dead or in command of skeleton legions.

Even then when he tried to lead the legion into chapters it took gun boat diplomacy ( quite literally here) to get half his brothers to fall into line.

So unless you are arguing that him leading the IG and IN in the scourging somehow makes his sons better at leading the sons of the brothers who he could lead 10k latter makes them naturally better i fail to see you're point.

If anything going by Primarchs then the universally beloved Sanguinius or Horus are the only natural leaders who you could make this point for and what do you know the oldest most respected marines commander out there is a son of Sanguinius ( Logan also gets major points).


The Ultramarines deal with organization of an entire realm. They are noted to be level headed and slow to anger. It makes sense.

And this makes them lead small pre selected teams of other Astartes better how?

If anything Raven Guard leaders who regularly lead small elite behind enemy line kill teams would trump Ultramarines on this point too.



Pls don't get me wrong, i am not trying to drag the Ultramarines down out of spite or something, i am just angry that this no sense rule was given.

Lord_Crull
30-12-2010, 20:24
Why not? All the chapters have their own leaders and positions of command it is just as likely that they would send someone who has experience in commanding as a ultramarine and then it would come down to who is better.


No, it's a general chapter trait, as Ultramarines do often interact with other Imperial organizations and other chapters the most. How many of those leaders get along well with other chapters?



Logistics?? in the deathwatch?? This isnt a marine force out on its own having to find its own supplies.


Last time I checked the Deathwatch don't find their own supplies. they get the best of everything from the Inquistion. Read Headhunted.



The Inquisition would be in the position ( if anyone in the imperium is its them) to make sure they would be no logistical problems that a marine has to worry himself with.

Unless you put forward that the Inquisition forces them to provide for themselves in some kind of cruel joke?


Logistics is more than just getting supplies. It's calucalting what's needed and how to get it among many other things. Logistics exist on a small scale action as well.



As for the tactics are you truly serious?? IF anything the other chapters who are more open minded and would be willing to use outside the box thinking and tactics IN addition to the standard codex ones would be better here.


I am serious. The Tyranid Codex, Battle of the Abyss and the Deathwatch rulebook all state that the Ultramarines have a high total of tactical acumen.



And before you say some of them would simply be too focused on a single tanet i put forward again the more codex chapters like Fists, Iron Hands, Salamanders and successors.


The Iron Hands are barely a Codex chapter and the Salamanders contain significant divergences. the closest you have is the Fists and they lack things that the Ultramarines have.



We are not talking about other Imperial organizations we are talking about leading a marine kill squad. I dont care how well they get along with the navy in this instance they work for the Inquisition they have all the clout, power and authority they will ever need.


Except other Marine chapters also come under organzations. This is explained in the Deathwatch rulebook. The Ultramairnes are very level headed and stotic and can find good comprimises between differing viewpoints.



Which again a death watch kill team has little to no need of i don't see how this is relevant, what is the main issue how to organize the squad into fire teams??


Soo select which members would be best for which mission, to calculate the terrian and what equipment would be needed. Etc, etc.



And again i would say why? Other then a self fulfilling argument of they lead because they are better, they are better because they lead you have said nothing to explain WHY they are better.


I have, multiple times in fact. the Deathwatch rulebook even explains why they are good leaders. Have you read the quotes earlier?

Deathwatch pg 54.


In all of their duties, from battle to study, the Ultramarines are thorough, analytical, and attentive to every detail. They are slow to anger and rarely make a rash decision. By constant recourse to the articles of faith enshrined within the Codex Astartes, the Ultramarines are able to face any eventuality with well-practised battle drills and established doctrine.
In their dealings with Battle-Brothers from other Chapters, Ultramarines often fulfil the role of facilitator and peacemaker. While Battle Brothers of some Chapters display extremes of character, from hotheaded to taciturn, the Ultramarines are balanced in their approach, and often able to broker agreements between wildly differing points of view. This is evidenced in the fact that a high proportion of Deathwatch leaders are drawn from the Ultramarines and their successors, a fact that has more to do with their outlook and character than it does with their numerical superiority



It's explained that they are analytical, attentive to detail and slow to anger. They in addition, since they are the balanced, jack-of-all trades sort of Astartes they can mediate between other Astartes chapters who may have different extremes of character.

It's quite well explained.
So they will stand a greater chance of running low on ammo? Or that they will not organize the kill teams as well??:shifty:


Maybe, maybe not. The Ultramarines in general have a better legacy.

And once again, logistics is not solely ammo.


Even then when he tried to lead the legion into chapters it took gun boat diplomacy ( quite literally here) to get half his brothers to fall into line.


Actually I was talking more about the Scouring in which the Ultramarines formed half the Marine forces in the field and worked well alongside the Imperial Fists.

Index Astartes Ultramarines:


After almost a decade of total war, stability was restored to the galaxy and the philosophies of the Ultramarines' way of war had permeated almost every Legion. Under Guilliman's guidance, the holy Codex Astartes was taking shape and its doctrines would shape every future Space Marine force and lay the foundations for the Imperium's conventional military might.

The whole reorganization thing was quite seperate. And Dorn's issue with was the splitting of the Legions, not Guilliman's tactics.

In fact I was talking about his organization skills when you quoted me. Not his leadership skills with other Primarchs.



So unless you are arguing that him leading the IG and IN in the scourging somehow makes his sons better at leading the sons of the brothers who he could lead 10k latter makes them naturally better i fail to see you're point.


No, that's now what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when they formed half the Marines in the field and their way of war spread to other Legions. That takes some impressive organization skills.



If anything going by Primarchs then the universally beloved Sanguinius or Horus are the only natural leaders who you could make this point for and what do you know the oldest most respected marines commander out there is a son of Sanguinius ( Logan also gets major points).


Those are individuals. Speaking generally Ultramarines serve better as leaders because of their disposition. Since they are level headed and analytical, they serve well as leaders and mediators. Plus Ultramarines have led several multi-chapter forces as well.



And this makes them lead small pre selected teams of other Astartes better how?


Who says the teams are pre-selected?



If anything Raven Guard leaders who regularly lead small elite behind enemy line kill teams would trump Ultramarines on this point too.


Because they might not get well with others? the Index Astartes Raven Guard notes they hold the Blood Angels in some contempt.



Pls don't get me wrong, i am not trying to drag the Ultramarines down out of spite or something, i am just angry that this no sense rule was given.

Sense has been given, seemingly multiple times in fact. The Ultramarines where always the human resource managers of the Astartes and they continue to be.

All chapters have their niche. It's explained in the Deathwatch rulebook. Everyone has their strength. The Ultramarine may not be the best CC combat fighters, the best marksmen, the most ferocious, the most stubbron. But they are the best at mediating and leading chapters because of their balanced and analytical nature.

nagash66
30-12-2010, 20:49
No, it's a general chapter trait, as Ultramarines do often interact with other Imperial organizations and other chapters the most.

Leadership is not, logistics have always been the chapter trait and i have already pointed out how that doesnt come into effect.




Last time I checked the Deathwatch don't find their own supplies. they get the best of everything from the Inquistion. Read Headhunted.
Logistics is more than just getting supplies. It's calucalting what's needed and how to get it among many other things.

See here i get the sense you responded as reading my post instead of reading the whole thing and then responding, in addition to contradicting youre self.

If like you also agree the Inquisition can get them anything they need they logistics don't play a part, choosing supplies to take with you is not logistics its tactics, logistics is making sure you have what you need when the time comes to select.


I am serious. The Tyranid Codex, Battle of the Abyss and the Deathwatch rulebook all state that the Ultramarines have a high total of tactical acumen.

If anything the other marines in battle for the Abyss pretty much did they own thing, if that is a example of Ultramarine leadership i shudder to think how they survive this long.

The Deathwatch rulebook is what we are arguing over now so how THAT can be used to reference youre point i dont know.

The nid dex i have not read yet so i cant comment on.




The Iron Hands are barly a Codex chapter and the Salamanders contain significant divergences. the closest you have is the Fists and they lack things that the Ultramarines have.

See again you point out their weaknesses as if it a good thing, chapter like the Iron Hands which are kinda codex would be BETTER as they provide everything a strictly codex chapter would AND more. In addition they are not so far gone as to make them in any way less stable and capable then Ultramarines.




Except other Marine chapters also come under organzations. This is explained in the Deathwatch rulebook. The Ultramairnes are very level headed and stotic and can find good comprimises between differing viewpoints.

No they don't, Adeptus Astartes are a entity separate from anything else in the Imperium, they like the Mechanicum consist of separate allied members rather then a Imperial Organization which answers and lies within the Imperial command structure ( High Lords).

As for them being more level header and stoic ( i think i am not sure is stotic is a typo or not) then say the Imperial Fists i say BS, that Wardian ( yes i made that a word) nonsense.




Soo select which members would be best for which mission, to calculate the terrian and what equipment would be needed. Etc, etc.

That where the Inquisition comes in, they make the calls not the Marine in charge of the kill team, they pick the missions they choose who goes and where.




I have, multiple times in fact. the Deathwatch rulebook even explains why they are good leaders. Have you read the quotes earlier?

I am honestly confused here, you are asking me if i read the passage to which my objection started this conversation?? Or is this Irony ( which the text form kinda kills).




Maybe, maybe not. The Ultramarines in general have a better legacy.

And once again, logistics is not solely ammo.


Logistics is the management of the flow of the goods, information and other resources in a repair cycle between the point of origin and the point of consumption in order to meet the requirements.

Information does not apply here the Inquisition deal with that, supplies and goods again the Inquisition.

So what else does logistics compile of that i aint getting? Choosing equipment is NOT logistics, again not that there is much choice, if there is a particular anti xenos weapon in need i would think that the Inquisition in the form of the Ordo Xenos would actually know more then some Ultramarine.

Actually I was talking more about the Scouring in which the Ultramarines formed half the Marine forces in the field and worked well alongside the Imperial Fists.

Index Astartes Ultramarines:



The whole reorganization thing was quite seperate.




No, that's now what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when they formed half the Marines in the field and their way of war spread to other Legions.

The reason they formed half the Marines is because the other half were dead, and again they DINT lead the survivors who were lead by their own Primarchs/leaders they lead the human side of the Imperium.








Sense has been given, seemingly multiple times in fact. The Ultramarines where always the human resource managers of the Astartes and they continue to be.

Quite right, a pity then that the Death Watch is not comprised of humans but Astartes.

Lord_Crull
30-12-2010, 21:01
Leadership is not, logistics have always been the chapter trait and i have already pointed out how that doesnt come into effect.


Except your definition of logistics is clearly different from the rest of us.



See here i get the sense you responded as reading my post instead of reading the whole thing and then responding, in addition to contradicting youre self.


How have I contridicted myself? There is a difference between getting the stuff you need and allocating it properly.



If like you also agree the Inquisition can get them anything they need they logistics don't play a part, choosing supplies to take with you is not logistics its tactics, logistics is making sure you have what you need when the time comes to select.


No, logistics is also choosing what you need in addition to getting it.



If anything the other marines in battle for the Abyss pretty much did they own thing, if that is a example of Ultramarine leadership i shudder to think how they survive this long.


Except Cestus was not really the leader, and he was in an entirely new situation. Nobody ever thought they would be fighting Astartes.


The Deathwatch rulebook is what we are arguing over now so how THAT can be used to reference youre point i dont know.


Because it already explains my point many times over.



See again you point out their weaknesses as if it a good thing,.

How am I doing that? I never intended or wrote it that way.



chapter like the Iron Hands which are kinda codex would be BETTER as they provide everything a strictly codex chapter would AND more. In addition they are not so far gone as to make them in any way less stable and capable then Ultramarines.


No, being a ''kinda codex'' chapter like the Iron Hands does not make them better. The codex's point was to be flexible. The Iron Hands are paranoid and distrustful, and would not make good team leaders. Others like the White Scars focus too much on one type of warfare rather than being all-rounded. The Ultramarines meanwhile are noted to be even-headed and able to form good relationships with others. The closest that can get to them in terms of being al all-rounder and with good relations between chapters is the Fists. And even they have some issues with not retreating.



No they don't, Adeptus Astartes are a entity separate from anything else in the Imperium, they like the Mechanicum consist of separate allied members rather then a Imperial Organization which answers and lies within the Imperial command structure ( High Lords).


How does that relate to them not being able to find different viewpoints between Marines of other Chapters? None of that answers my point, which was talking about the Ultramairnes acting ad mediators between chapters and finding common ground between different viewpoints.

When I state ''under organizations'' I speak of organizations as seperate from the Ultramarines.



As for them being more level header and stoic ( i think i am not sure is stotic is a typo or not) then say the Imperial Fists i say BS, that Wardian ( yes i made that a word) nonsense.


I don't recall them being more level-headed. However the Fists have been known to stay put when they really should't.

You are acting if all Ultramarines become leaders. They don't.



That where the Inquisition comes in, they make the calls not the Marine in charge of the kill team, they pick the missions they choose who goes and where.


No, the Deathwatch maintain Watch stations and while they often respond to missions, they don't always get to choose who goes. The Watch Commander and his Watch Captains choose that.

It's in the book.

And where did you get that quote? Also, that quote actually supports my assertion. You have to manage it well as well as getting it.



I am honestly confused here, you are asking me if i read the passage to which my objection started this conversation?? Or is this Irony ( which the text form kinda kills).


You asked why the Ultramarines got this reputation. The quote explains that quite throughly.



Information does not apply here the Inquisition deal with that, supplies and goods again the Inquisition.


Once again, logistics is more than that. It's also alocating your resources properly.



The reason they formed half the Marines is because the other half were dead, and again they DINT lead the survivors who were lead by their own Primarchs/leaders they lead the human side of the Imperium.


That does not however take away from the organization feat. The Idnex Astartes notes that the Ultramarines grew during the period and other Legions learned from them.



Quite right, a pity then that the Death Watch is not comprised of humans but Astartes.

I was using that as a comparison. You do realize that me using ''human resource'' means in the sense of being a good manager/organizer/mediator right? I was not refering just to normal humans but Astartes as well.

nagash66
30-12-2010, 21:35
Except your definition of logistics is clearly different from the rest of us.


Since you appear to agree with the definition i provided i fail to see how.




How have I contridicted myself? There is a difference between getting the stuff you need and allocating it properly.

Kindly elaborate, do the Ultramarines have some secret skill which lets them do what ALL other marines have to do better? Or do they know better anti xenos weapons and load outs then the Ordo Xenos?




No, logistics is also choosing what you need in addition to getting it.

No, logistic is the science of supplies, making use of those supplies is not logistics, getting the things where they need to go in sufficient volumes and in a timely fashion this is logistics.

Choosing weapons loadouts and kit is not.

"Logistics means having the right thing, at the right place, at the right time." And in Deathwatch kill teams having a Ultramarine in command will not in any way shape or form change this ability then having any other chapter in a similar position. You want to show me how this isnt true go ahead, but simply saying that they would doesnt do it for me.




Except Cestus was not really the leader, and he was in an entirely new situation. Nobody ever thought they would be fighting Astartes.

I was not the one who used the book as a example of Ultramarine leadership capabilities.




Because it already explains my point many times over.

Using the passage i disagreed with to show me how i am wrong is exercise in futility.




How am I doing that? I never intended or wrote it that way.
Because they got everything the Ultras got ( barring the logistical support and experience i have covered see below) and more. Hence their strict codex mindset is worse then what others can provide.



Last time I checked the Deathwatch don't find their own supplies. they get the best of everything from the Inquistion. Read Headhunted.

Logistics is more than just getting supplies. It's calucalting what's needed and how to get it among many other things. Logistics exist on a small scale action as well.

You stated that they get the best of everything from the Inquisition and then go on to say how they are better at getting what is needed right after. So if they get the best of everything from the Inquisition would make their logistical abilities pointless. In addition the Inquisition is already given them the BEST so calculating what is needed is also redundant.

Hence the contradiction.




No, being a ''kinda codex'' chapter like the Iron Hands does not make them better. The codex's point was to be flexible. The Iron Hands are paranoid and distrustful, and would not make good team leaders. Others like the White Scars focus too much on one type of warfare rather than being all-rounded. The Ultramarines meanwhile are noted to be even-headed and able to form good relationships with others. The closest that can get to them in terms of being al all-rounder and with good relations between chapters is the Fists. And even they have some issues with not retreating.

More even headed that a chapter famed for being utterly cold and logical?
Or of the Imperiums best siege masters? And white scare specialize in that type of war fare, the key word being specialize, meaning they excelled in that but perform the bog standard codex formation, because to specialize you need to have mastered the basics.

There more even headed then the HOT heads that is true, but not everyone is a Space wolf or Templar, plus examples like Uriel Ventris show us that not all Ultramarine's ( a captain no less) are like this ether.

In fact those same books showcase how Ultramarine pride can be counterproductive in leading other chapters ( what was that Srg name? The one who objected to pretty much everything his own Ultramarine superior did?)




You are acting if all Ultramarines become leaders. They don't.

I am saying that there is no special reason they should.




No, the Deathwatch maintain Watch stations and while they often respond to missions, they don't always get to choose who goes. The Watch Commander and his Watch Captains choose that.

Which again are under the supervisions and ultimate command of the Ordo Xenos.




And where did you get that quote? Also, that quote actually supports my assertion. You have to manage it well as well as getting it.

Nothing crazy a basic google search.




You asked why the Ultramarines got this reputation. The quote explains that quite throughly.

And my disagreement with that explanation is what brought us here, bringing it up again and again doesn't serve any purpose.




Once again, logistics is more than that. It's also alocating your resources properly.

We have been over this they have the best resources that exists for the Imperium, they get them from the Ordos, they allocate them according to the species they face which would be again reliant on Ordo xenos briefings.

So unless they alone know the secret of giving the heavy weapons to the heavy weapon specialist they got nothing.





That does not however take away from the organization feat. The Idnex Astartes notes that the Ultramarines grew during the period and other Legions learned from them.
All of which given them 0 extra skill in leading a ordo xenos kill team.

Lord_Crull
30-12-2010, 21:52
Since you appear to agree with the definition i provided i fail to see how.


You don't appear to use it correctly.



Kindly elaborate, do the Ultramarines have some secret skill which lets them do what ALL other marines have to do better? Or do they know better anti xenos weapons and load outs then the Ordo Xenos?


It's not some secrt skill or anything. They ar enoted to cooperate with other chapters better and more frequently. Add to their experiance in ruling a realm and it makes sense.



No, logistic is the science of supplies, making use of those supplies is not logistics, getting the things where they need to go in sufficient volumes and in a timely fashion this is logistics.


No, making use of supplies is logistics.



Choosing weapons loadouts and kit is not.


Yes it is.


"Logistics means having the right thing, at the right place, at the right time." And in Deathwatch kill teams having a Ultramarine in command will not in any way shape or form change this ability then having any other chapter in a similar position. You want to show me how this isnt true go ahead, but simply saying that they would doesnt do it for me.


They would, considering that's always been considered the Ultramarines niche. I can't describe exactly since we don't see much of Astartes logistics described, but it's there.



I was not the one who used the book as a example of Ultramarine leadership capabilities.


Which is why I used it as an example of their tactical acumen instead.



Using the passage i disagreed with to show me how i am wrong is exercise in futility.


It seems futile when you are seemingly ignoring it. You asked for me ''why'' and I answered you.



Because they got everything the Ultras got ( barring the logistical support and experience i have covered see below) and more. Hence their strict codex mindset is worse then what others can provide.


No, the Iron Hands are noted to be insular and somewhat distrusted because of their close ties to Mechanicus and haterd of weakness. They would make poor team leaders. They don't have everything the Ultramarines have, not by a long shot.

Index Astartes Iron Hands


They are increasingly doubtful of the strength and worth of their brother Chapters, becoming resigned to the fact that they alone can stamp out the deficiencies that they see besetting humanity from all sides. They perceive weakness in everything around them, and prepare for the day when Ferrus will at last return to them; that time when they will stand firm with their Primarch in the final reunification of Mankind.

It flat out says they doubt the strength and worth of other chapters. Those are very undesireable traits in a leader.


You stated that they get the best of everything from the Inquisition and then go on to say how they are better at getting what is needed right after. So if they get the best of everything from the Inquisition would make their logistical abilities pointless. In addition the Inquisition is already given them the BEST so calculating what is needed is also redundant.


No, they are best at taking what they have and putting it to good use.



More even headed that a chapter famed for being utterly cold and logical?
Or of the Imperiums best siege masters?


How are the Fists noted for being utterly cold and logical? And how would a specialised trait matter to an all-rounder?

Or are you speaking of the Hands? The Hands are cold and logical to an extreme, hating all forms of weakness and being distrustful of others. They doubt the abiltities of other chapters.

By comparison, the Ultramarines don't really do that. The only possible exceptions are those afflicted by insanity. (And those who are would not really be considered normal Ultramarines at all)


There more even headed then the HOT heads that is true, but not everyone is a Space wolf or Templar, plus examples like Uriel Ventris show us that not all Ultramarine's ( a captain no less) are like this ether.


How is Ventris not like that? He got along fine with the Raven Guard and other Astartes in Chapter's due and Dead Sky, Black Sun and with the Guard on many occasions. The only possible exception is the Mortifactors, and the Mortifactors lied to him and he was under the influence of the Nightbringer at the time.



In fact those same books showcase how Ultramarine pride can be counterproductive in leading other chapters ( what was that Srg name? The one who objected to pretty much everything his own Ultramarine superior did?)


Learchus did not object to everything Ventris did, only things on occasion. He also never lead other chapters's Astartes.



I am saying that there is no special reason they should.


Good, because all Ultramarines don't become leaders. They just have a higher porportion.

They do however, have advantages because of their temperment and ability to mediate between Astartes.



Which again are under the supervisions and ultimate command of the Ordo Xenos.


Not on the battlefield and not when organizing.



Nothing crazy a basic google search.


No, I would like the website cited please.



And my disagreement with that explanation is what brought us here, bringing it up again and again doesn't serve any purpose.


No, it serves a fine purpose. It explains exactly why it happens and exactly how the Ultramarines have a higher porportion of leaders. Earleir oyu asked why and I gave it to you.



We have been over this they have the best resources that exists for the Imperium, they get them from the Ordos, they allocate them according to the species they face which would be again reliant on Ordo xenos briefings.


No, they allocate them according to their own experiance and descisions.



So unless they alone know the secret of giving the heavy weapons to the heavy weapon specialist they got nothing.


No, there are many, many factors when issuing equipment. Terrian, weather, individial skill and type of foe are just one of the manty varied tactical reasons. A good commander takes all of these into account and judges accordingly.



All of which given them 0 extra skill in leading a ordo xenos kill team.

No, such experiance with organizing armed forces would be good. I was just using it as a precedent for Astartes organization. The codex dealt with everything, from small-unit action to large formations.

nagash66
30-12-2010, 22:03
Look this is simply getting to the point where we repeat ourselves ad nauseum.

You have you're view i have mine it is as simply as that.

For good or ill the Deathwatch rpg included this view one that i do not share.

I do not believe ether of us is going to convince the other with there argument so that is that.

Chem-Dog
31-12-2010, 05:08
Sorry to wade in at such a late stage and sorry if the stuff I say has already been covered, but there were a few points I wanted to make and the posts were getting awfully long and split by millions of split quote responses...



Do the Ultramarines get so large that every 250-500 years or so they have a successor chapter created using all their additional marines?

Interesting question. One assumes that when starting a new Chapter it's first fighting battle brothers will either have to come from another (or more) Chapter OR have trained and fought alongside a "Mentor" chapter(s) until such time as . Whichever way you pick it's very likely that Subsequent foundings have "time in" with other chapters.



Yup, Ultramarines were the majority EXACTLY because they had stayed away from the fight

Perhaps more to do with their disproportionately high legion strength to start with. Readers of Thousand Sons will know what I'm alluding to.



.....Armaggedon

None of these have seen an Ultramarines presence.

Ultras formed fully one third of the Armageddon relief during Armag II (the first Ork one) Calgar and Tu'Shan both defered to Dante because he's the cool kid.





Your theory is disproved by the fact that Guilliman is currently frozen in stasis. It's hard to control everybody when you are locked mortally wounded in time.

Technically out of time but yeah.....Perhaps it's all a subtle ploy, he wouldn't be the first Military commander ever to employ a double ;)


Actually no,. The whole passage in the Blood Angels codex makes them sound pretty enthusiastic about it. They see the Coex as a way of defeating their curse.

ACTUALLY. It's regarded as a way to prevent potential infighting within the Legion as popularity started to polarise around potential successors to Sanguinius.




Actually no. Guilliman status of First Lord Commander of the Imperium was believed by the Ultramarines themselves, it's possible, but can't be confirmed.

Fixed by adding two words...De Facto.:D


Second, Guilliman risked his own chapter to save Dorn at the Iron Cage. If Guilliman really wanted the Fists to fold he would have simply let Dorn and his die hards perish.

You're fighting to hold the territory you've fought for during the crusade, that you've fought for once again in the wake of a cataclymsic civil war, every fighting man essential for keeping the Imperium together....You don't let a Primarch and hundreds of useful soldiers get chewed up just because you happen to disagree on an issue so relatively trivial....:rolleyes:

Nor do you risk another rogue.....




Dorn had just sacrificed most of his Legion defending Emperor when Guilliman the "I passed all the real fightiing" Lord Commander walks in and starts telling Dorn how he should fight... I'd be damn pissed if I was Dorn.

Sacrificed most of his Legion and FAILING to defend the Emperor (in his mind at least). Dorn was far from thinking clearly at the time.

Lord_Crull
31-12-2010, 13:42
Technically out of time but yeah.....Perhaps it's all a subtle ploy, he wouldn't be the first Military commander ever to employ a double ;)


Then appearantly his own chapter is unaware he is still walking around.



ACTUALLY. It's regarded as a way to prevent potential infighting within the Legion as popularity started to polarise around potential successors to Sanguinius.


Not really. I read it more as a way to get it done and over with.



You're fighting to hold the territory you've fought for during the crusade, that you've fought for once again in the wake of a cataclymsic civil war, every fighting man essential for keeping the Imperium together....You don't let a Primarch and hundreds of useful soldiers get chewed up just because you happen to disagree on an issue so relatively trivial....:rolleyes:

Nor do you risk another rogue.....


Except if Guilliman where the tyrant that is ''susposedly'' is then getting rid of any potential counters to his power, any possible equal, would be a good thing. Only another Primarch would truely threaten Guilliman.

[lexus]
31-12-2010, 15:44
Except if Guilliman where the tyrant that is ''susposedly'' is then getting rid of any potential counters to his power, any possible equal, would be a good thing. Only another Primarch would truely threaten Guilliman.

Thats what a short sighted tyrant would do yes, but Guilliman is also one of the smartest guys around at that time. If he truly wanted power and all, it would be much easier for him to keep useful people like other primarchs around. All you have to do is make them loyal to you.

If he lost them, he would have to further stretch his resources to defend his realm at a time when everything is already stretched to the breaking point.


@OP, not sure if people already covered these points. Anyways, by now a lot of Space Marine chapters control entire subsectors.

The reason for why they got a lot more successor chapters is because they got pretty much the best geneseed with the least amount of mutations (if any).

As for them joining every major battle, look at the time span. Its quite possible since all the major battles arent fought at the same time.

Lord_Crull
31-12-2010, 17:41
;5213221']Thats what a short sighted tyrant would do yes, but Guilliman is also one of the smartest guys around at that time. If he truly wanted power and all, it would be much easier for him to keep useful people like other primarchs around. All you have to do is make them loyal to you.

If he lost them, he would have to further stretch his resources to defend his realm at a time when everything is already stretched to the breaking point.


Except at that time the Scouring has just concluded and the Ultramarines where still by far the largest Legion. Even if Dorn died the Fists would still be split up. Dorn himself went into seclusion for years, retraining his Chapter before he got out.

Chem-Dog
04-01-2011, 03:09
Then appearantly his own chapter is unaware he is still walking around.

I was speaking as if the hypothetical scenario presented by the OP was the truth. Of course, you could then argue that he's now trying to out-Alpharius Alpahrius ;)




Not really. I read it more as a way to get it done and over with.


Two quotes from BA Codex. Pg 8.
"The Death of Sanguinius left no clear line of succession and factions within the Blood Angels swiftly polarised around potential candidates".

"Arguing that of all the questions facing the Legion, how it should henceforth be ordered for battle was by far the least of their concerns...."

Yeah, it's Potatoe/Potatoe depending on how you read it :)

Sephiroth
04-01-2011, 03:58
Two quotes from BA Codex. Pg 8.
"The Death of Sanguinius left no clear line of succession and factions within the Blood Angels swiftly polarised around potential candidates".

"Arguing that of all the questions facing the Legion, how it should henceforth be ordered for battle was by far the least of their concerns...."

Horrible writing with terrible logic. A highly efficient, independent military force doesn't have a chain of command?

Müller
04-01-2011, 07:11
I found this hillarious. The original points of why this theory would even be more than a theory have been shot down multiple times by canon fluff.

And yet more non-vital anti-blues small examples appear just for the sake of arguing against the blueberry boys once more (as these threads always tend to turn out).

I've enjoyed the read so far but one thing is constantly bugging me; how certain users here are assuming that the Ultramarine Successor chapters are an extention of the Ultramarines themselves, there are multiple instances where Ultramarines have explicitly stated their hatred towards some of them for being "twisted".
The only example I remember the exact source however is in the Ultramarine Novels when the (awesome in my opinion) Successor chapter Mortifactors are called upon to aid Uriel Ventris against the tyranid threat where both the chapter's rites are repulsing to the Ultramarines as well as their unorthodox tactics along with doing the Inquisitor's bidding by sacrificing an entire world (exterminatus) to slow down the tyranids when Uriel wants to help as many of them escape the doomed world instead.

So please, stop referring to their successor chapters as basically extentions of the Ultramarines.

[lexus]
04-01-2011, 10:22
A successor chapter is basically a chapter that uses the same gene seed right? I thought that Ultramarines simply had the best gene seed with the least amount of mutations and thats why their gene seed is preferred when a new chapter is set up. Thats also the reason why they have the largest amount of successor chapters. And yeah, that doesnt mean these chapters are always good friends with each other.

I always assumed that they did this because the standard sm rules are based on the Ultramarines and unless you play specifically with a different chapter, you use a Ultramarines successor chapter that is based on their standard template.

shadowhawk2008
04-01-2011, 12:32
There is a little more to it than just gene-seed purity. The High Lords / Inquisition also look at how well the chapter works with other Imperial institutions and how their combat conduct is and so on... That would be one of the main reasons why Ultramarines and Imperial Fists get picked so much (Ultras more than the Fists of course).