PDA

View Full Version : Of Eldar and Craftworlds



The Inevitable One
27-12-2010, 04:26
After watching the Lord of the Rings, I became very interested in the Eldar or Space Elves as some people have come to call them. Although there is probably a fair amount of information about the Eldar, I have only skimmed the top of it. That being said I was wondering if I could bring about some questions relating to the Eldar and their Craftworlds.*


Question One: Of the Eldar that used to span this Milky Way Galaxy, has there ever been a Craftworld or a group of Eldar ever moved onwards to another galaxy begin anew with a building another empire? Not only that but escape Slaanesh?


Question Two: Although the Eldar are extremely strict about how they go about their lives, are there any that continue to do the things that they did back before the Fall, but in moderation? Completely avoiding your obsession only makes your craving for it worse, but in moderation, you can enjoy the best of both worlds without being screwed over by either.


Question Three: Since the population of the Eldar is on a downwards slope, why are they not having children as they should be? Other races like the Tau and Humans are having children, so I see no reason why the Eldar should have to go extinct because they might be feeding Slaanesh.


Question Four: Why don't all of the Craftworlds bulk together to form a more fighting chance? I know that the Craftworlds are massive, but then again so are Hive Fleets, Necron World Engines, etc. If they bulked together they could possibly obliterate anything that came in their path.
Thanks for reading, I look forward to your replies.

*Although there are a few questions here, I may think of some more up and edit this thread post.

chromedog
27-12-2010, 05:45
Question 1:
Eldar don't use WARP TRAVEL. Their craftworlds are the remains of their trading fleets agglomerated over time. The furthermost ones have only got there (where they are) in the last 10,000 years - and the exodites left BEFORE them. They would have had to forsee it coming 50,000 years before the event to even have a hope of leaving the galaxy and that would merely have dropped them into the void between our galaxy and the next closest.
Question 2. Eldar were designed to feel things more intensely. Like humans, they also learned the value of moderation (often a little) too late.
Question 3. Eldar breeding takes longer than humans. Both parents need to be in the right mindset in order to conceive. Their consciousness extends to that level.
Question 4. The Craftworlds (as noted) are the remnants of Empire commercial fleets. It's not inconceivable that these fleets had their own rivalries. They are divided over how they view themselves and the other races in the galaxy.

Shamana
27-12-2010, 08:04
Chromedog has it right imo, but I'd like to add a bit regarding the last two questions:

3: The eldar are having children, obviously. They may even have a path about it, for all we know (although it doesn't help that their mother goddess isn't around like Khaine), the main problem is that they may not be enough to counter the negative trend from all the deaths and those who take the way of the outcast. Not to mention a few GW authors have taken a liking to killing craftworlds, especially recently...

4. Having the craftworlds band together means that a single strike could threaten several at once, and possibly would make them even more of a lure for Slaanesh than they already are. And when She-Who-Thirsts really wants to get her/him/itself some Eldar... Well, there's a story about a craftworld called Kher-Ys.

Also, craftworlds used to be almost autonomous long before the fall. It is quite conceivable that they acquired their own culture and traditions, like clans. This became even more so after the fall, when they grew a lot bigger, became fully independent, and communication between them and the other eldar became even more strenuous. In many ways, they may be as different as separate countries today. The 4E codex states that there have even been (armed?) conflicts between them when it details Saim-Hann.

FarseerMatt
27-12-2010, 09:23
Question 2. Eldar were designed to feel things more intensely. Like humans, they also learned the value of moderation (often a little) too late.

This. Eldar do not flat-out deny themselves their emotions (they probably already know this would be pointless), but they focus them towards one aspect of life at a time. This allows them to enjoy things just as much, but the slower pace is anathema to Slaanesh, and so it does not draw her attention. Of course, some Eldar get impatient with the Craftworld way of doing things, which is why there are outcasts. That said, I have always seen the Path of the Outcast a way for Eldar to face up to their dark passions in a similar way that the Path of the Warrior confronts their bloodlust.



Question 3. Eldar breeding takes longer than humans. Both parents need to be in the right mindset in order to conceive. Their consciousness extends to that level.

Also, the Dark Eldar codex notes that the Eldar gestation period is several years (possibly human years, possibly Eldar years, but either way a long time). A craftworld left to its own devices would probably grow in population, but most craftworlds find themselves embroiled in war more often than they would like, and their birth rate cannot always keep up with the rate of attrition.



4. And when She-Who-Thirsts really wants to get her/him/itself some Eldar... Well, there's a story about a craftworld called Kher-Ys.

Must resist urge to derail thread with list of plot holes in that story... :mad:

To add to Chromedog and Shamana's points, the craftworlds are connected via the webway, so they can shuttle troopa around with relative ease to support each other. However as stated they have their own agendas and cultures and do not always wish to work together. This is changing to a degree - people like Ural Asur and the Harlequins dedicate themselves to fostering inter-craftworld relations, and the Medusa V epilogue noted that the war helped to forge bonds bonds between the craftworlds.

Alsharoth
27-12-2010, 09:45
Question 1 - Maybe but it has never been written about.
------------Craftworlds take ages to move be cause they drift and arn't directly powered.
Question 2 - The dark eldar to a degree how ever in "The cronicals of Malas Darkblade" there is a secreative cult of slanash.
Question 3 - Myth has it that souls are limited and with eldar trapping souls to keep them from Slanash it is possible that birthrate is low. Then again with the Eldar constantly at war I doubt there is much chance to have a child.
Question 4 - As stated if they join they could all be wiped out in one go.
------------ The Craftworlds are Clan based with the leading houses controlling the goings on.

Polaria
27-12-2010, 09:56
Question One: Of the Eldar that used to span this Milky Way Galaxy, has there ever been a Craftworld or a group of Eldar ever moved onwards to another galaxy begin anew with a building another empire? Not only that but escape Slaanesh?

Craftworlds seem to need stuff that is available only from stars and planets. It is not a sure if a Craftworld could survive the massively long travel in completely empty void between the galaxies. Also, Halo Star zone which surrounds the outer edges of the galaxy seems to be pretty damn dangerous to cross as it regularly seems to swallow whole imperial crusades whole.




Question Two: Although the Eldar are extremely strict about how they go about their lives, are there any that continue to do the things that they did back before the Fall, but in moderation? Completely avoiding your obsession only makes your craving for it worse, but in moderation, you can enjoy the best of both worlds without being screwed over by either.

Eldar don't do moderation. They can't. The whole concept is as alien to them as their minds are alien to humans.




Question Three: Since the population of the Eldar is on a downwards slope, why are they not having children as they should be? Other races like the Tau and Humans are having children, so I see no reason why the Eldar should have to go extinct because they might be feeding Slaanesh.

Good question. It is not sure if it is a matter of attrition of constant warfare or some sort of deeper sociological problem. Maybe all that "path of whatever" stuff just makes their females suffer from constant headaches and thus nobodys getting any, if you know what I mean ;)




Question Four: Why don't all of the Craftworlds bulk together to form a more fighting chance? I know that the Craftworlds are massive, but then again so are Hive Fleets, Necron World Engines, etc. If they bulked together they could possibly obliterate anything that came in their path.


The patent solution of Eldar Craftworld meeting a Hive Fleet or a Necron World Engine is FLEE. And, as history has shown, the only thing a huge number of people can do to make their escape easier than just fleeing is to SCATTER and FLEE. The Craftworlds took care of that "scatter" part a long, long time ago and thus do not travel together anymore.

Hendarion
27-12-2010, 10:00
Eldar don't use WARP TRAVEL.
They are capable of doing so, since they do have warp engines. But they prefer not to use them if possible. That doesn't mean they never use them though.
We had that discussion too often to continue it though and I think that is basically enough said towards the topic.

Idaan
27-12-2010, 13:30
Question Two: Although the Eldar are extremely strict about how they go about their lives, are there any that continue to do the things that they did back before the Fall, but in moderation? Completely avoiding your obsession only makes your craving for it worse, but in moderation, you can enjoy the best of both worlds without being screwed over by either.

Which things? Things they did right before the Fall, like eating Eldar flesh, hunting humans, painting pictures with faeces and blood, composing symphonical works for string instruments with strings made from sentient beings' intestines, capturing souls of others into paintings, sacrificing other Eldar to the newly made-up dark gods? No.

Things they did before they fell into decadence, leading normal lives? Yeah, Craftworlders do that all the time. They're not really that strict about what they do - they just tend to focus their attention to one thing, but an Aspect Warrior can still sculpt and write poetry to unload the tension. Read "Path of the Warrior" for a really good vision of Eldar day-to-day life.


Question Three: Since the population of the Eldar is on a downwards slope, why are they not having children as they should be? Other races like the Tau and Humans are having children, so I see no reason why the Eldar should have to go extinct because they might be feeding Slaanesh.They are having children. It's just as conception, gestation and raising of children all take so long, they could only rebuild their pre-Fall population in a stable environment. And if they have to continuously fight for survival, they tend to die. Either way, population decline isn't the main problem they have. The only Craftworlds described as empty are those that suffered catastrophic events - Iyanden and Kaelor for instance. On the other hand Alaitoc is teeming with Eldar - again, see "Path of the Warrior"

Their decline is much more deeply ingrained and pretty unslovable - it's cultural. They're a dying culture, forgetting ancient myths and traditions, forced to change the way they live out of necessity. They once dominated the whole galaxy and 99% of them, overtaken by grim fatalism, lost faith ever to return to this state. They're dying first as a culture and only second as a race.

Compare Native American cultures and Ukraine - the first are declining culturally, the second is one of the few countries to have a catastrophic population decline. Which do you see called "dying" in the media?


Question Four: Why don't all of the Craftworlds bulk together to form a more fighting chance? I know that the Craftworlds are massive, but then again so are Hive Fleets, Necron World Engines, etc. If they bulked together they could possibly obliterate anything that came in their path.There's no need to. With Webway, they're theoretically able to send massive reinforcements in no time to their neighbours in need. But the thing is, this is always conveniently handwaved (Tyranids attacking Iyanden messed with reinforcements arriving) or just forgotten by people who include Eldar only to bitchslap them (Matt Ward)


Craftworlds take ages to move be cause they drift and arn't directly powered.They are directly powered and can travel through warp and Webway. Just look at the 3e Eldar codex map with Imperial encounters with craftworlds to see that they move around in different directions faster than light. Or just see 5e rulebook for how Iyanden has covered about 1/10 of galaxy's radius in just 7 years (since its encounter with Kraken in 993.M41). It would be impossible without means of FTL travel.



Question 3 - Myth has it that souls are limited and with eldar trapping souls to keep them from Slanash it is possible that birthrate is low.Not true. No source says anything like that, and besides it makes no sense. If no new souls could be created, they could never grow their population (which they did for the entirety of their history up to the Fall) and no new Eldar children could be born after the Fall. Almost every Eldar character we know with the exception of Eldrad and the Phoenix Lords was born after the Fall. So no, this is not an option.



Eldar don't do moderation. They can't. The whole concept is as alien to them as their minds are alien to humans.
They can. They were moderate throughout their entire history, before they created vicious circle between them and Slaanesh, urging them to go deeper and deeper into anything they did. Also their mind aren't alien. They are remarkably similar to human, with analogous thought processes and emotion - they're only more intelligent and prone to obsession.




Good question. It is not sure if it is a matter of attrition of constant warfare or some sort of deeper sociological problem. Maybe all that "path of whatever" stuff just makes their females suffer from constant headaches and thus nobodys getting any, if you know what I mean ;)
I know this is meant as a joke, but someone could take it as serious, so: no, Eldar have no problems having sex. If anything, they're much more open than modern humans. Again, see "Path of the Warrior" for how lightly they treat it, even considering courting outdated and preferring to cut to the chase right away. There's even a sexual encounter between two Aspect Warriors in the middle of their training (though it's interrupted, because obviously sex is inapropriate for young readers while in-depth descriptions of dismembered corpses are).

And no, sex isn't Slaaneshi and doesn't lead to corruption. No more than eating or breathing is. It's a normal, healthy activity - or would you imply that rabbits are Slaaneshi because they breed a lot?

ChaosTicket
27-12-2010, 13:45
Harse, but yes, the Eldar before the Fall were just short of being Slaanesh cultists, which not simply paintings, but paintings of blood, and other freaky things.

As for combined fleets, the Eldar cannot really combine for they are rivals, like the Saim Hann rejected the decadence before the other craftworlds and they have a closer connection to the Exodites.

They also cannot survive if they became a very visible target, enough that not only 1 craftworld(Iyanden) but many fleets would be targeted, when the Eldar target is escape and evasion. They dont have brute force or numbers, as birth rates are not only low, but the whole Eldar population is probably less than a single imperial Hive World.

Yes the webway is very useful, as for example Maugan Ra and a large force of Dark Reapers helped Iyanden, keeping it from being obiterated, but that doesnt mean a Craftworld could go through a portal. Craftworlds DO have actual propulsion systems, they are better made than Space hulks(randomly made from various things lost in the warp).
--------------------------------------------
The Eldar's technology is ment to compensate for their lack of armor, brute force, and especially low numbers. It pretty much explains any question you will ever ask about them.

Shamana
27-12-2010, 14:09
Actually the population of the craftworld eldar is never set nearly straight... It is very small compared to the orks or Imperium, but that doesn't mean much. It can be anywhere from millions to hundreds of billions - even in the latter case it wouldn't mean much compared to the countless lives the Imperium can throw at a whim.

Idaan
27-12-2010, 14:11
Actually, in the youtube interview, Phil Kelly stated variously that minor Dark Eldar Kabals have millions of Warriors (which are only the cream of the crop members), are comparable to minor Craftworlds and have comparable military power to an average Imperial planet.

ChaosTicket
27-12-2010, 14:28
Understand that the Eldar Craftworlds contain entirely militia and professional Aspect warriors, compared to Imperial Planets which have billions on the small size, hundreds of millions on the large(comparaing Civilised to Hive worlds).

Dark Eldar also have mainly warriors, simply because slaves do the labor.

Imperial planets actually have ECONOMIES, so there are some that dont fight.

Shamana
27-12-2010, 14:39
I don't think the difference is as big as you say. Craftworlders train as militia, but on the average day most of the pointy ears will be busy doing their usual work - taking the smaller pointy ears to school, baking space elf bread, creating world-destroying weapons, arranging rock gardens, etc. If they are mobilized, they will serve - but most times, they aren't, and even when the autarchs need reserves they will likely only call for a small portion. I'm not sure how different that is from most Imperial planets - in case of emergency, I would suppose that there would be mass mobilizations there as well.

With Kabals, there are many who aspire to be warriors, but I think the majority of the kabal is composed of non-warrior eldar. You can't trust the slaves with everything, the damn mon-keigh (which doesn't only mean humans, btw). I would suppose there are at least 3-4 regular kabalites for every one that can be called a warrior.

The main difference is that the IoM has a whole lot more planets than the CE has craftworlds or the DE kabals/cults/covens. They could mass-sterilize a hive city like Armageddon (after the first war) and just call in colonists without too much of a problem.

Retribution
27-12-2010, 21:11
The story of Kher-Ys is just...so...dumb. 40k fluff is just getting ridiculously bad for the poor old xenos

Shamana
27-12-2010, 22:20
Wellllll... I think Kher-Ys was far from the worst piece of fluff on craftworlds. Let's just say I found the story of its fall a lot more convincing than those of Idharae or Malan'Tai. A LOT more convincing. I mean, Kher-Ys might be bad, but those two were among the most "WTF" pieces of 40k fluff ever written.

FarseerMatt
27-12-2010, 22:42
Actually, in the youtube interview, Phil Kelly stated variously that minor Dark Eldar Kabals have millions of Warriors (which are only the cream of the crop members), are comparable to minor Craftworlds and have comparable military power to an average Imperial planet.

Right. And the DE codex also states that Craftworlds were each designed to accomodate "an entire planet's population". While this number is open to interpretation, we could easily be talking about one or more billion for the "average" craftworld.



Wellllll... I think Kher-Ys was far from the worst piece of fluff on craftworlds. Let's just say I found the story of its fall a lot more convincing than those of Idharae or Malan'Tai. A LOT more convincing. I mean, Kher-Ys might be bad, but those two were among the most "WTF" pieces of 40k fluff ever written.

Perhaps we should start another thread for this. I have a lot I could say about both...

Jaraknarn
27-12-2010, 23:01
The path of the warrior is a path that a lot of eldar tend to take at least once in their lives. Its like getting an honourable discharge after serving ur time but being part of the reserves in case sumat goes down. So to say all craftworlders are either aspect warriors or militia is a slight over statement. There are bond to be a large percentage of the population that have yet to take or feel the calling of the warrior path.

Whats this Kher-Ys story? Anyone feel like PMing me a brief synopsis?

FarseerMatt
27-12-2010, 23:06
Whats this Kher-Ys story? Anyone feel like PMing me a brief synopsis?

Can do. It's in the Daemon codex, give me a minute while I dig out my copy.

Jaraknarn
27-12-2010, 23:06
Perhaps we should start another thread for this. I have a lot I could say about both...

Yes, i have plenty of 'Goto'-Bashing to do!

Bring on the "What the Fluff?!?!" Thread.

Jaraknarn
27-12-2010, 23:09
Can do. It's in the Daemon codex, give me a minute while I dig out my copy.

By, u love a good synopsis don't u Matty

Shamana
28-12-2010, 08:08
Added the "What the Fluff" (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287720) thread. Bash on, ladies and gentlemen :)
.
BTW, regarding the OP first question, I think there was a craftworld which supposedly had been cooperating with the Harlequins about a way to leave the Milky Way, possibly into the Webway. I think it was called Lugganath... does anyone know anything more about it?