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View Full Version : Need Help, 2k HE vs Lizard Dudes



1.6blackout
29-12-2010, 06:55
I'm new to fantasy and need help overcoming an obstacle (lizard dudes)

The dude runs a typical slann(light magic)/templeguard, skink priest, 2x saurus warriors, 2 salamanders, camo skinks

i have unlimited spearmen and archers, 7 dragon princes, 25 whitelions, couple of mages, tiranoc chariot, 2 eagles, 3 bolt throwers, nobles on foot

what can i do to best combat these lizards. im thinking of taking the book or teclis out of desperation.

please help me, he kicks my "butt" every tournament

1.6blackout
29-12-2010, 19:38
brothers, please help this is dire

gamerguy1470
30-12-2010, 02:51
ok so being a high elf player what are ur usual strrong points? and waht are ur race weaknesses and what are his? u have always strike first with I5 or higher, u have strong magic, ok so the options i would try is try and out magic him, the slann is awesome and counts as etheral so any kind of spells that effect a entire unit or templete(purple sun)will really cripple him for instance a lvl 4 archmage with a silverwand/staff of saphery will combat the slann pretty well. take a lvl 2 with a couple pump spells from lore of life and a feedback scroll, the slann will get a spell off but he def might regret it make the noble a bsb with banner of socercy or maybe banner o balance both good, feild like 25 spears 2 units of basic 10 archers, white loins are good on a flank where they can break ranks and tear up troops with strengh 6 i like giving them the banner of disipline so they are a stubborn ld9, swordamsters will chew through his army if u can protect them from shooting(screen them behind crap unit) and magic give them protection maybe caradyran i havent been keepin track of points lol hope this helps

Trains_Get_Robbed
30-12-2010, 04:54
kjngkjsgjsng

High Elf Tactica is a great place, however, help is here. :D

That list your opponent (brother, friend, etc. . ) runs is quite mean. If he cut out the Skink and ran Life magic, I think that would be Ard' boys ready. . . maybe a Steggie too! ;)

I have a played a good friend of mine of late that I don't normally get to play alot, he is the the best tactican in our group of gamers, and takes the same list every game (similar to above with exceptions that I listed.)

This being said, if you really want to spank him, then do most of the following:

1. DO NOT TAKE REPEATER BOLT THROWERS, they are an absolute waste at a 100 points and have ridculosuly low cost-benefit ratio (especially no in 8th ed.).

2. Take a Lvl 4 with Book of Hoeth, and also, take a White Sword, AoC, G.P and lastly T.o.L Prince to pop any nasty Scar-Vets/Old Bloods bunkering in T.G (you will not have the points to take the Prince if playing a 2,000 point game or if playing a 2,500 and you take Teclis instead). If you can/want to run Teclis instead, you my as well do it. The chesse he is bringing will justify it especially if he is running Beclaming Cog, or Cupped Hands.

When going with the Lvl 4 look to take Death Magic or Shadow (I personally would run Death, because one can generate more P.D with Llore ability, however don't forget about Soulblight, or D.D, I would never pass those up save for PSX).

For Hero level charcters, a BsB, on B.Steed, G.W, Tegadmors' Gauntlets, and (insert Item here) -mind you this is if you run a White Sword Prince. Normally BsB load outs consist of AoC, G.P and G.W, your done, however, because your Prince has it, run the above instead). Also could run, him on B.Steed Dragon Pendant, and ++5 item from the BrB, this is up to you.

Next, and your last charcter choice should be, a lvl 2 mage (for back up, its always good to have). His lore for me is always the hardest to choose, if you are running Teclis then the smart thing to do would take either A.C or the Sigil. The A.C will just further limit his csating dice, essentially shutting his magic down to an already lower level (as Teclis is giving you +D3), though if you have the Sigil, you could possibly make him forget two spells in one game, on a +4 and also gives you two scrolls to use. A Slann does become kind of useless without Dwellers, Flesh to Stone or Regrowth. However, I would be tempted (this is my playstyle here speaking and what I do) to give my Lvl 2 the Silver Wand, and Reaver Bow (I throw the Reaver Bow in there because I don't really know what else to give him, and the S5 Bow can come in handy for picking off Sallies).

With the Silver Wand, I take Life Magic, and try to get these spells: Flesh to Stone, Regrowth, Signature Spell, Dwellers in that order. Throne of Vines isn't worth it because its a 'once cast' and with the Lore of Death resupplying your P.D pool, Teclis will eventually run out of things to cast and it will be your Lvl 2's turn, the more spells for him to continually cast each turn the better.

3. Mhmmmmm, White Lions. If you could have any special choice troop, White Lions would be the ones to have! :D Run a unit of 20, with Bannner of Sorcerey, and stick your Prince in this unit. If you have no Prince, then run 21 W.L.

4. It would really help if you have another sp. block for troops! if you could run say 21 S.M or proxy them in some how, and Armor Piercing Banner (only run the A.P banner against high A.S troop armies obviously) or even better yet, for a Death/Shadow Archmage, or Death/Shadow Teclis, then 19 P.G.

5. 5 naked D.Ps, or if you give them up grades, the only one should be a s.b with the Ellyrion Standard. Treats all terrain as open ground, and cleans up any sallies as they are essentially Fire proof, as well as Chem Skinks, as they have 3D6 Charges, and high M vaule. If you afford it then run 6 D.Ps

6. Lastly, 2 Great Eagles. These guys job is to just get infront of his units, and slow up the already slow moving and reacting Saurus and T.G blocks. If they charge, take it and force them to charge you at an unfavorable angle to force combat win reform as opposed to overun, and essentially lock them in place until your W.L arrive to stomp the yard -uf your magic for some reason just sucks, if it didn't, they will be more than likley mopping up.

If your opponet deploys his Chem skinks to harass your blocks of Spears, or other troops, then use the Great Eagles to Charge them instead. Don't be afraid to use two Great Eagles to clean up ten skinks, ten Chem Skins can easily kill one Bird in a stand and shoot.

Other Tactics: Always let PSX/Pit, randomize at the beginning of your magic phase, before dispelling it to recast it agian (unless its going to hit your own troops, or isn't going to hit anyone).

Think of combinations of spells to work with being that of inside just one lore, or mulitple lores, for example, use D.D on the Slann, before Spirit Leeching him.

Always use Death Magic First, as it gives you more powerdice to use!!!

Try to get a plan ahead of time for the magic phase, for example: you have 10 P.D, he has 5 D.D, portion out three for D.D on the Slann -he lets it go waiting for PSX- then you throw 2 at Spirit Leech -now he has a choice, watch his slann maybe die/take wounds and let PSX go, or dispell, and pray that PSX dosen't hit his lines.

Bunker your LvL two in some LSG if you have a Silver Wand, Reaver Bow/Crown of Command Mage.

Don't forget aobut Spears, and LSG, these can be crucial in helping flank charges and tipping scales in combat. Just remeber, they will have a hard time beating out Saurus 1v1 unless, buffed, having the Saurus debuffed, or having a BsB/combat charcter amond their ranks (which in this list is where the BsB would go, in one of the two blocks of Spears, or if at 2,500 points, in the block of spears, and Lvl 2 mage in LSG.)

Lastly, watch for sneaky tricks from the Slann, there are many a item combinations that can kill Teclis, or an Archmage: Feedback Scroll and Bane Head combo come to mind.

*****If you can't win now dude, I have no hope for you, and you should melt your models/give them to someone else and stop playing High Elves. Just saying.

-If you can't proxy in/get ahold of 19 P.G, then try to run a second block of Lions with proxy/bolster them with a new box or two of the plastic W.L. If not that, then run a second/thrid unit of Spears, and then with the extra points, a chariot to help with Chem and Skink infestatinon, or even *gulp* a RBT or two. *I shudder a little when I say that.*

1.6blackout
30-12-2010, 07:29
Yes, at my location we play 2000points

thank you very much Mr. Train. i appreciate your time and thoughts very much. Yes he is running Cupped hands with Lore of Life.

Would relying on Teclis casting Flames of the Phoenix on his Slann/temple guard be a safe enough bet?

Lastly i am confused, I thought i could only take a maximum of 500 points worth of HQ in a 2k point game? Like i said i am extremely new to fantasy (4 games) and having a new edition come around the corner right as i start playing doesnt help either.

hlaine larkin
30-12-2010, 10:56
don't rely on magic :P and you can take 500 points of Lord AND 500 points of heroes :)
but like i said, don't rely on magic, the right slaan build can easily go toe for toe with teclis and pretty much nullify him (if he knows how to build it right) so just talke advantage of the slaan now being rubbish and temple guard aswell, wack some swordmasters in there. stick a character (possibly BSB) with the loremasters cloak (no magic banner) and charge him in the face. most of the time, with a unit of 21 swordmasters, you will be getting ~20 attacks, hitting on 3's with a re roll wounding on 3's and he gets a 6 up save + the hero/lords attacks and you will slice and dice the unit of templeguard, as he has to use a halberd. Combine that with say glittering robe, giving you a 3+ save basic or lore of life/beast spells to boost toughness and you will be set. but that unit will take on anything.
That way you rely on the odds, not on magic which is throughly unpredictable (a fantasy tip is use magic to bolster a good army, don't take awesome magic and expect it to carry a weak army)

Also... Kill the skink priest! if he is a lizardman player worth his salt, he will use this seemingly ineffective wizard as a casting point for his slaan's magic, so remove that element.
Shoot at saurus to wittle them down and let them charge a unit of seaguard, the saurus are nails and will be your biggest problem, so try and get multiple units into the fight, but depending on his skill level as a lizardman player, he will likely begin to crumble once his templeguard/slaan are dead.

SUmmary-
Swordmasters, loremasters cloak and go kill some templeguard. (you could consider running them 10 wide, take 30, his shooting won't kill many, that way its 39 attacks + the character for horde rule, try telling someone you just decimated there templeguard.)

Points to remember....
1-You CANNOT opt to use hand weapon/shield you must use halberds (Page 89,Paragraph 1 WHRB)
2- if your I is higher than theres, you get a re roll :)

LASTLY-The stubborn rule (meaning the templeguard are ld 9 with 3 dice all the time) only lasts as long as the slaan is in the templeguard, if you mow them down- which is doable in a turn/2 the slaan is not stubborn as soon as the unit dies.

E.G
If the slaan and 3 templeguard remain, you aim to kill the templeguard and kill all 3. The slaan is now on his own and not stubborn, so assuming you have a BSB and a rank still he will be testing on -5 to his LD. 3 dice is good, so make them have to roll low!


I hope this helps, i play both lizardmen and high elves so i hope you enjoy the game!

(however, i would advise against tailoring lists against people usually, but he is being mean to a new player so go get him :) )

hlaine larkin
30-12-2010, 10:58
also, second to no bolt throwers. i run 2 blocks of 40 spearmen, 2 blocks of 28 swordmasters, 2 level 4's and some fighty characters at 2500. does me well :)

1.6blackout
30-12-2010, 23:38
Mr. Hlaine Larkin, thank you so much for your time on this. I truly appreciate your words of wisdom and advice. May your path be bright and your loins bountiful

hlaine larkin
30-12-2010, 23:43
Thats quite alright :) let us know what list you go with, and if you want an advice on the specific list and how the game goes :) good luck!

1.6blackout
31-12-2010, 06:11
k, heres my gathered list...

Teclis (life)

Lvlvlvlvlv 2 mage (death) w/ silver wand loremaster's cloack

Noble w/ Armor of Caledor, amulet of fire

28 spearmen full command

28 spearmen full command

10 archers

8 princes full command w/ Elyrion Banner

21 white lions full command w/ Banner of Arcane Protection

Tiranoc Chariot

2 Great Eagles

comes out to 1994.

Im going to put the noble with the Lions, Teclis with a unit of spear men, and the mage with another unit of spearmen

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
31-12-2010, 16:16
Just wondering if maybe Life would be better on the 2nd Lvl. Mage and Death on Teclis. Only reason is that Teclis already ignore miscasts and can reliabily cast spells to add more dice to your power pool for the 2nd Lvl. to cast. Also Throne of Vines (if you roll it for the Lvl. 2) would mean that you'd have 2 mages that can possible ignore the chances of miscasting. Just a thought.

1.6blackout
31-12-2010, 19:12
you speak wisdom

Trains_Get_Robbed
31-12-2010, 19:32
^^^ Agree with Pointy Headed Elven Paladin

Have Teclis take Death, and have the level 2 take Life. Again with the level two, your looking to take: Earthblood, Flesh to Stone, Regrowth, Dwellers, Shield of Thorns etc. . . in that order.

BEFORE THIS THOUGH, your math is wrong. :p

Your pushing closer to 2,500 than 1,994. lol

I would consider dropping the F.C on the Dragon Princes as its not really worth the Champion's extra attack for 20 points (is it?) and same goes for the musician. If your rallying from fleeing after a paticaularly brutal combat then you have LD 9, and needing a a quick reform isn't really worth anything much with Cav. :/

However, if you want to keep the F.C in there, thenconsider giving the Champ a magic item for 25 points. It essentially makes him like a mini-charcter. Look towards the Helm of Fortuane, or something similar.

As is the Lvl 2 with the Loremasters Cloak. It fits neatly into his point allotment, but it dosen't really do anything. I would instead look into taking the Crown of Command if your adament in sticking him in a block of Spearmen.

I would though put him in the unit of W.L because his main point after Teclis regenerates all his points back is to buff up that W.L unit or other units around him. The more W.L you can kill with the better off your combats will be, and nothing ensures that then a +2 boost in T and a +5 regen save. If you stick your Lvl 2 in here though, there is not need for the Crown so instead just take a generic +5 ward from the Main BrB Tally of Endurance, this will at least give the mage some protection at the front lines if he gets targeted.

The Noble you have up is already immune to fire attacks with the Dragon Armor, so to take the Amulet of Fire is kind of redundant. Instead take the Guardian Phoniex. This will give him a +3/4 followed by a ++5 against almost everything in the L.M army.

I would also consider dropping the 10 archers, they wont do anything and with the remaining 110 you can give that Noble the BsB marker (which always helps, can you say I can play that stubborn reroll LD nine game too? :P).

Magic Resistance is really all that useful because all the actual good "killy" spells now require a test or die. Although, Lore of Light does have a magic missile or two, its not really thretening when you your losing 1-4 spearmen with a +6 save as opposed to the entire unit.

With the Banner of Sorcery, on the W.L, you would essentually gurantee yourself a good magic phase every phase with +D3 +D3 p.d, and he has only 4 d.d because you rolled two fours.


Teclis (Death)

Lvl 2 mage (Life) w/ silver wand and Talisman of Endurance

Noble w/ Armor of Caledor, Guardian Phoniex, Great Weapon

25 spearmen full command

25 spearmen full command

5 D.P's Bearer w/ Elyrion Banner

19 white lions full command w/ Banner of Sorcery or Armor Piercing Banner (-4 Armor Save negates any armor in a L.M book, something also to consider) I took Banner of Sorcery for the point totals.

Leaves you at 1,868 without any of the below:

Tiranoc Chariot

2 Great Eagles

Teclis goes in Spear Block 1. Lvl 2 Mage and Noble BsB in W.L unit run 7 wide.

You could put in another D.P and then run 2 Great Eagles. Run a Chariot next to the W.L unit and give it wounds back from Lore of Life attribute and add in another W.L/ D.P. There is alot you can do.

---

I was even considering this too.

ALTHOUGH, THIS CAN BE GIMMICKY AND RELIES ON VERY GOOD TARGET PRIORITIZING AND CAN LEAVE TECLIS UNIT VULNERABLE IF HE DOSEN'T ADVANCE WITH MAIN BLOCK

You said you had multiple Hero on Foot models right?

Well, drop the Banner of Sorcery ont he W.L, and drop the Musican from Teclis unit. Give Spear Block 2 the +1 LD banner from BrB.

With the remaining points, take a second Noble give him Tekagdomor's Gauntlets, Shield, Sword of Might, Heavy Armor and Shield, put into Spear Block 2. Make this guy your General.

Put the Lvl 2 mage in block of Spearmen 2, but instead of the Tailsman, give him the Crown of Command.

Add one W.L to the W.L unit, and your done. This puts you at 1,999.

The tactic/idea here is that, you now have two fercious combat blocks.

First being the W.L with the +2, ++5 A.S BsB, and the Second being Spear Block 2 with the General and Lvl 2 Mage.

Advance both blocks simotanously within 12 in' of one another towards the Temple Guard or Saurus or whatever. Both units have Stubborn and both units are testing on LD 10 rerollable. Take that Cold Bloodniess.

While the +2 T W.L could tear up the front of the T.G, you have +5 Regen Spearmen (with the general which makes the Spearmen combat viable attack the flank, or guard the flank of the W.L and take on Saurus or Sallies/Skinks nearby. :evilgrin:

It would be better to try the orginal list you have posted, and bust this one out at a later time manily because you only have 4 units on the field, one of which isn't even supposed to get in combat and is there for Bodyguard/mop up duty. In addition the alt. list above dosen' really have anything to take care of Chem Skinks, the bane of Teclis Body Guard unit.

Thats my two cents yet again, I'm hungry, so peaceskis.

1.6blackout
31-12-2010, 20:49
k, revised here is my list

Teclis (death)

Lvl 2 Mage (life) w/ talisman of endurance, silver wand

24 spear elves full command

25 spear elves full command

5 Dragon Princes w/ Banner of Elyrion

20 White Lions w/ Banner of Sorcery

Great Eagle

Tiranoc Chariot

Trains_Get_Robbed
01-01-2011, 22:48
Yeah, you should do quite well against the L.M, then again the dice gods can always be finicky. ;)

1.6blackout
02-01-2011, 09:26
thank you for all of you. you have earned the respect of cs pro blackout