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snikch13
18-03-2006, 01:18
Not an attempt at rule creation, this was merely a thought that had occurred to me. What would people think of chaos dwarfs being released as an allied contingent, not unlike kislev? I think it could work very well this way. Have most bad guys armies, dow and ogre kingdoms be their friendly allies, have skaven as their unfriendly, and leave out tombkings & VC. Have 2 core, combat chaos dwarfs and deamonic blunderbuss's, 1 special, bull centaurs; and 1 rare, the hellcannon. Characters could be a here level fighter and hero level sorcerer (or better, my idea for a daemon engineer). last, give the bull centaur champion the hero level stats and you've got all notable units and characters hero-level down represented. Put out a couple lord level special chars (like kislev) and you have a decent army.

I put forth the above idea, because I think something should be done about the Chaos Dwarfs. Most folks would agree, however, most seem divided about exactly what to do. All would agree tho, that it is not fair to leave gamers waiting to see if their army will stay legal or become the next squats. The way I propose, would give us the legal list, and still make them viable when coupled with an ally.

Essentially, I see chaos dwarfs as a very small exception to the overall dwarf race. Likely, they are simply dwarfs gone extreme in their mixing of outlawed forms of runesmithing and engineering; hence the hell cannon being half daemon, half machine. Being that they are likely a small offshoot as described, they would not entirely be about waging war, but rather obsessed in their rune/engineering pursuits, likely only coming out of the darklands to defend themselves or sell their machines. Thus their overall ally role.

By handling the Chaos Dwarf situation in this manner, we then have a good foothold for the race so they wont go extinct from gw lore, but have also defined who they are and relegated them to their essential role. I could see alot of players picking up a few units of chaos dwarfs to flesh out their evil armies (i know ive already dreamed of adding a hell cannon and dow dwarf unit to a mortal chaos army). Essentially, it lets us gamers grab hold of this lost army, and it gives GW an easy fix to a long standing problem. A little story about the clans that went east after being exiled (dwarfs dont kill other dwarfs perhaps) for their misguided ways, and you're done.

Now to the naysayers, I would posit that if you want to field a chaos dwarf army with hob gobbo slaves, it is still entirely possible to do so. the dow regiment is very well suited for this role, additionally if taken as an "ally" for orcs & gobs you have the chance to create that evil dwarfs enslaving greenskins army you all dream about. Not much is lost (the earthshaker, death-rocket, and sneaky gits), but much is gained (hell cannon, possibly more characterful blunderbusses, and chaos, darkelves, o&g, skaven, OK, etc as allies). So, what do you all think? If enough of us agree maybe we can create a sister article outlining the rules for the proposed chaos dwarfs allied contingent later?

Knightmare
18-03-2006, 02:07
I like it.

Hell,if GW were to do that(and sculpt models in line with the Hellcannon crew),I'd start playing WFB myself.

snikch13
18-03-2006, 07:13
I like it.

Hell,if GW were to do that(and sculpt models in line with the Hellcannon crew),I'd start playing WFB myself.

thanks.

...and yes, i would agree that the hell cannon crew would be a better concept than the current "big-hats" one. :rolleyes:

macbeth
18-03-2006, 09:36
I disagree.

First, some of their greatest units, such as their artillery, would disappear. This is not insignificant. The Earthshaker is possibliy the best weapon of teh game, and far better than the unmanagable Hellcanon.

The, this would truly sign the death of the CD. They did such a list for the Kislevists as they had never been an army before. But the CDs were an army. They've had a list since the 3rd edition, with all they strange machines such as the whirlwind and so on... But making them an allied contingent would, I thin, ruin any hope that they became a true army one day.

Plus, I don't see them as taking so much allies. After all, they goal is to enslave people, not to be mercenaries...

Lab Monkey
18-03-2006, 11:05
The Chaos Dwarfs have enough potential to have a full army list, armies book and model range.

Starbane
18-03-2006, 13:07
By handling the Chaos Dwarf situation in this manner, we then have a good foothold for the race so they wont go extinct from gw lore, but have also defined who they are and relegated them to their essential role. I could see alot of players picking up a few units of chaos dwarfs to flesh out their evil armies (i know ive already dreamed of adding a hell cannon and dow dwarf unit to a mortal chaos army). Essentially, it lets us gamers grab hold of this lost army, and it gives GW an easy fix to a long standing problem. A little story about the clans that went east after being exiled (dwarfs dont kill other dwarfs perhaps) for their misguided ways, and you're done.



unless I've misread it, the new dwarven army book indeed states that this are a sort of corrupted, lost clans. Those relatives who stayed with the other dwarves thus lost their kin, became some sort of orphans, and were mostly adopted by the other clans

It sound good, but I'd rather see it as some sort of temporary list untill they (hopefully) fully redo CD.

In the meantime, you can always try and let your gaming group decide if you can play like that and then come back and tell us what you've found out..

Lord ZaeQ
18-03-2006, 14:59
No, If GamesWorkshop cares about the hobby they shall remake Chaos Dwarfs

Elannion
18-03-2006, 15:26
I do like it in some ways but i still would like to be able to field a full army, for some reason they have really caught my attention.

Crube
18-03-2006, 15:44
I don't think it's a stupid idea, but that's what i voted, cos I dont think its a good idea... I agree that the ideas done so far would support a full army list that could be characterful and entertaining, without the limitations of being a Kislev stye allied contingent.

The Hellcannon crew are a good starting point for the range, rather than the big hat brigade...

Cacodemon
18-03-2006, 17:05
Although I'm all for Chaos Dwarf's getting their very own list, I still think that allied contingent is better than nothing. It could also give GW a chance to rework the image and test the waters before launching a full line.

Chaos Dwarfs have very lot of potential if explored to the full. Think about steel golems, gorgons (the bull versions) that turn enemies into stone, Chaos Rune weapons... anything's possible at this point.

snikch13
18-03-2006, 17:58
I anticipated this sort of reaction, and I think it is a shame. With the uncompromising postion most Chaos Dwarf lovers have taken I don't think we will ever see them get a full list. It is apparent that most of GW would rather them die, otherwise we might see more of them. Getting an allied contingent list with updated rules is better than an outdated ravening hordes list.

Keep in mind too that my proposal is just that, only a proposal. I'm not commited to seeing the allied contingent idea only come out as I described, surely we/they make room for a few other units like the golems mentioned and another artillery. Keep in mind too, that an allied contingent list would give GW a reason to make new models, and breathe life into an otherwise EXTINCT ARMY. Every year that goes by without many new players of Chaos Dwarfs is another nail in their coffin... especially if Gav retires, afaik he is the only one comitted to them returning someday.

Max_Killfactor
18-03-2006, 20:18
I wish your poll had an option that said:

"Decent idea, but I'd much rather see a full army list."

I'd rather have your idea than nothing, but then I'd be afraid that GW would leave them as an allied contigent list and never get around to making a real army book.

Lord ZaeQ
18-03-2006, 21:59
I anticipated this sort of reaction, and I think it is a shame. With the uncompromising postion most Chaos Dwarf lovers have taken I don't think we will ever see them get a full list. It is apparent that most of GW would rather them die, otherwise we might see more of them. Getting an allied contingent list with updated rules is better than an outdated ravening hordes list.

Keep in mind too that my proposal is just that, only a proposal. I'm not commited to seeing the allied contingent idea only come out as I described, surely we/they make room for a few other units like the golems mentioned and another artillery. Keep in mind too, that an allied contingent list would give GW a reason to make new models, and breathe life into an otherwise EXTINCT ARMY. Every year that goes by without many new players of Chaos Dwarfs is another nail in their coffin... especially if Gav retires, afaik he is the only one comitted to them returning someday.

I am ready to back you up in this idea, but what should we do? GW doesn't care about the players anylonger, they just cares about the player's money. But still, I support you in this for keeping Chaos Dwarfs alive

snikch13
19-03-2006, 00:55
I wish your poll had an option that said:

"Decent idea, but I'd much rather see a full army list."

I'd rather have your idea than nothing, but then I'd be afraid that GW would leave them as an allied contigent list and never get around to making a real army book.

consider it as at least a strategic point of defense. if they make new models, and an allied contingent list at least the possibility of them being removed COMPLETELY has been averted. after that point of defense has been erected we can all continue with the "full list battle" so to speak.

additionally, some folks out there i know really consider the chaos dwarfs to be dumb and hope for them to be removed from the game entirely. to avert this we would need to get more players interested in them... ultimately the allied army players might warm to them and buy a few units.

RGB
19-03-2006, 23:57
1. A Chaos Allied List that will bring artillery, just lovely.
2. More daemons, less Mesopotamian-ness and cool hats. Not great as well.

I wouldn't mind them as an AC but seeing what a botch job Kislev was I'm not enthusiastic. And threats of "it's either this or they get erased from the fluff" don't help your cause.

Sorry, not buying this just yet.

snikch13
20-03-2006, 04:27
1. A Chaos Allied List that will bring artillery, just lovely.
2. More daemons, less Mesopotamian-ness and cool hats. Not great as well.

I wouldn't mind them as an AC but seeing what a botch job Kislev was I'm not enthusiastic. And threats of "it's either this or they get erased from the fluff" don't help your cause.

Sorry, not buying this just yet.

I'll bet you don't even play chaos dwarfs, but you'll sit there and be a jerk towards someone trying to get an honest dialogue started. What is your problem? For the number of harshly negative responses I've recieved I'd think I was challenging a religion, and not putting forth an idea for a tabletop game.

I never said that it was either "this way or they get erased from the full". I did mention that they are going no where, and that it is possible they could go the way of the squats. My only point ever was that something needs to be done other than sitting around, demanding a "full book" with no plan, or ideas for the short term.

Really, the fact that everyone sits around hollering that they don't want the chaos dwarfs to be deleted when noone playes them is just ludicrous. GW is a corporation, and a corporation's only obligation is to deliver a profit for it's shareholders. Demanding a full list and nothing less when almost noone plays them will go no where. Whatever, I try to put forth a new idea......