PDA

View Full Version : Dark Elves Second Wave?



sturguard
30-12-2010, 20:51
I actually have asked a few others about this including GW themselves but really haven't gotten much in the way of answers. Does anyone know why Dark Elves got skipped over on their second wave of minis? High Elves, Skaven, Dwarves (I see rumors of Beastmen) - but no dark elves. Their release included just one core, one elite and a rare (so 3 total kits) which seems very light compared to other races. Do Dark Elves not sell enough to warrant more minis? I don't know GW's policy when selling/creating kits but it seems dark elves really got the shaft. I mean most of their models are extremely dated (at least in my opinion) and certainly could use an update- meanwhile, just about every high elf and skaven model have had a remake. This thread really isn't about bashing other races but more about understanding why GW wouldn't make more of an effort with the dark elves. I am looking forward to the Tomb Kings release but I don't want to buy in to an army and get the same treatment, having a few models done but the majority left as is.

Thanks for your input.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
31-12-2010, 01:58
GW decided to make the rules so good, so they could load off the poor old minis to the tournament players and then save the money on developing new ones.

But take a look back and think of the high elves. They didn't get much modelwise with their 7th ed. book, and now suddenly they're all plastic pixies :)

sturguard
31-12-2010, 03:42
I am kind of mystified by the whole process. Skaven get everything all in one shot? Space Wolves which seem to be extremely popular (I basement game so I can only go by what I see on Warseer and online) but they get just 2 plastic kits (the SW Pack and Termie) while the BA, get what 4-5 plastic kits, plus 2 more on the horizon, meanwhile, GW doesn't make a TW model? Orc and Goblins get 2 makeovers in less than a dozen years and are due for another in a few months? Part of me thinks its just profit- which models of which armies are popular and will see- let's face it, the rules in this edition favor armies like Skaven and Goblins and Empire so we see all three getting all kinds of models to fuel the model fire, but yet you don't make a TW model for SW players (which seems like it would have been model gold) and Dark Elves (which a few months ago seemed to be at the height of their popularity with the army book being so good) seems a missed opportunity? So I am boggled- do the sculptors just sit around and say, who wants to make models for army x and if only one or two guys raise their hands, thats all they make? Like I said, if anyone has any ideas on how to predict how much of a release an army will get before hand, I would love to hear it because dark elves have already been a dead end of me as far as models go and I would much rather start a second army that is model rich and will be supported sooner rather than later. Unfortunately, I dont like skaven, empire, dwarves etc- but TK, Bretts and OK might be okay if the models were done right. With dark elves I get all the infantry, magic and monsters I need, I would rather have a bit of artillery as well which the TK, Bretts and OK might have - although I dont want a gunline like dwarves and empire are capable of.

Thanks.

StarFyreXXX
31-12-2010, 04:19
i wish lizardmen got new plastic sets...

the cold ones are still the worst plastic models in fantasy IMHO...

Sanjay

Ludaman
31-12-2010, 04:51
i wish lizardmen got new plastic sets...

the cold ones are still the worst plastic models in fantasy IMHO...

Sanjay

Yeah those things are horrendous!

Honestly though this thread asks a good question. I only play in a small club, and no one plays empire because they don't like the puffy clothes and poncy-hats, and we have like 3 chaos players.

My assumption though is that they replace models based on either what has sold well in the past or what market research shows will sell well in the future. Or perhaps even cost to develop/sculpt/produce vs. margin of profit. Who knows though, In my experience most corporations are run pretty poorly. Kinda like an octopus on rollerskates, each arm seems to be doing a whole lot, but the body still doesn't go anywhere.

sulla
31-12-2010, 05:01
heh, yeah... regardless of how many plastic kits we have, DE still have an awesome range, and as the new HE plastic kits have shown, plastic does not neccessarily make for a more affordable or better looking army.

We don't really need plastic dark riders since fast cav are not that good in 8th (certainly not better than harpies or shades). Plastic executioners will certainly look worse than the current models. Witch elves and black guard may look better but will almost certainly be incompatable with the current models (I just can't see them being able to sculpt similar in plastic so they will probably go back to the 5th edition styles of both). Really, the only thing we are lacking is the chariot. And since chariots are not that great in 8th in terms of damage output (gimme cauldron buffed knights anyday), and the age of warmachines makes it lethal to field characters on chariots, we're not even that desperate for those.

I'm content to wait while other armies get some much needed love. Go plastic savage orcs and TK, I say.

sturguard
31-12-2010, 13:34
Again, how do they determine who gets what? Did skaven really need a makeover of every model in the line or was it simply because their army is one of the best in 8th edition? Are Orcs and Goblins that popular an army for all the updates they get? Does popularity even matter in the decision making process, does GW look at a stat sheet showing sales before they even start making molds?

Sulla I would disagree with you about the dark elf models- the warriors wear crab shells on their heads, the crossbows are horrible, the spear hands are huge, the halberds for the black guard are always bent no matter how careful you are, the witch elves would be fantastic if they gave them the dark eldar treatment- and think of the executioners done as Incubi, we wont even go into how bad the harpies are- GW has the means of doing some fantastic new models for dark elves, whether they do them or not of course is a different matter.

Haravikk
31-12-2010, 15:22
I don't think that Dark Elves are too bad, the core units are okay as the dark elf warriors aren't as horrible looking as the high elf spearmen, and repeater crossbows still look cool. Corsairs of course look better overall, but none are exactly hideous.

My main interest are the Witch Elves, I do quite like the metal models, but I'd love a plastic kit for them, as they don't look as much like a frenzied mob as I would like. I'm working towards building a Witch Elf army at the moment, though I'm mostly just nabbing suitable characters here and there at the moment, as if a plastic Witch Elf kit does seem likely then I'll be waiting for it.
Cauldrons of Blood as well, I don't dislike the models again, but something that looks like it actually could be moved would be nice, and some more options for the death hags. I do enjoy a bit of conversion work, but I've no idea what to do, probably make some kind of suitable cart for them maybe, and try to find other models for the death hags so I can make a good BSB model out of one.

red_zebra_ve
31-12-2010, 16:18
I am now slowly painting (a unit every 1 to 2 month) my old 3rd/4th/5th DE after more than 15 years of playing with gray elves.

I smile when the current range is disliked, when all it got where praises several years ago :)

I must say I love my old plumed helmets minis, they remind me of very good games, nice victories and horrendous defeats. And will go on painting them instead of replacing them with new minis.

sulla
31-12-2010, 23:04
Sulla I would disagree with you about the dark elf models- the warriors wear crab shells on their heads, the crossbows are horrible, the spear hands are huge, the halberds for the black guard are always bent no matter how careful you are, the witch elves would be fantastic if they gave them the dark eldar treatment- and think of the executioners done as Incubi, we wont even go into how bad the harpies are- GW has the means of doing some fantastic new models for dark elves, whether they do them or not of course is a different matter.Warriors and crossbows are the same kit, and no worse than the tomb kings skellies or HE spears or archers. Beter IMO than the ogre bulls with their boat shoes and boring pose.

I'd love to see awesome plastic WE or BG, but I don't want to see WE with bodybuilder arms like the Eldar wytches, or BG who look as poor as the new phoenix guard.

The harpies are fine for a sacrificial unit (use gamezone's ones if you need beter looking harpies) and the executioners are better than the incubi; whell, the poses are more dynamic and the weapons are better, anyway.

AlexHolker
01-01-2011, 00:46
My main interest are the Witch Elves, I do quite like the metal models, but I'd love a plastic kit for them, as they don't look as much like a frenzied mob as I would like. I'm working towards building a Witch Elf army at the moment, though I'm mostly just nabbing suitable characters here and there at the moment, as if a plastic Witch Elf kit does seem likely then I'll be waiting for it.
Plastic Witch Elves are also the reason I'd want a DE second wave, if only because it would be GW's first all-female plastic kit.

(You might also be interested in rumours that Avatar of War's second plastic kit might be female Dark Elves)

Ivellis
01-01-2011, 01:19
I just got my first Dark Elf buy for Christmas and the warrior kit is A LOT nicer than I expected. Not perfect of course, but definitely not horrible.

Promethius
01-01-2011, 10:20
There does seem to be a wide variation in no of kits for releases, and I agree DE could do with a few more. However, you mention dwarves as a race with tons of plastics, but actually there are only four, same as the de, and a lot of their models (like the hammerers) are ancient. I'm also puzzled at the lack of tw, but then I'm still waiting for plastic stormtroopers (admittedly not a faction lacking in kits).

Chainaxe07
01-01-2011, 11:40
Hello,
well i do think, indeed, that a few more plastic kits for every race could do. I have never seen a plastic release look worse than a metal one, including new he swordmasters, pg and all the items in iob. They look rather better than their metal counterparts, i'd say. Slimmer blades, more defined edges etc etc.
The only kits that, on average, look worse than the metal ones are, oddly enough, characters, with the only notable exception of the empie wizard and the he wizard from iob.
I'm always a bit surprised when i hear DE are (or were) considered a powerful army, i say they rather fit in with most second tier army, and rak definitely behind dwarves (the overall nastiest list from 3rd edition onwards), DoC, Lizardmen, HE and Skaven. I'd put them on par with empire, O&G and Woc.
I'd love plastic kits for bitch elves, that would allow modellers a lot of variety, i also think execs and black guard would look decent, but dark riders are probably the models that need the plastic treatment the more imho.
Cheers!

Haravikk
01-01-2011, 12:13
(You might also be interested in rumours that Avatar of War's second plastic kit might be female Dark Elves)
Oooh yes, though I already have the two AoW sorceress type models for my Witch Elf army so I dunno if I want to go all out on them since I do like taking my armies into the store to play, it'd seem wrong to have the whole army by somebody else :D

The Dwarf berserker kits AoW made are really sweet, but naturally they appeared right after I got a load of second hand metal GW slayers, never mind though as I do like the metal slayers, just not as nice for building a regiment as a plastic kit.

So I'll probably still hold out to see if GW does anything, though I expect I'll get a couple units worth of the current metal minis anyway, and proxy for the rest (Dwarfs can dress up as Witch Elves, right? :D) and see what happens.

sulla
01-01-2011, 15:07
Hello,
well i do think, indeed, that a few more plastic kits for every race could do. I have never seen a plastic release look worse than a metal one, including new he swordmasters, pg and all the items in iob. They look rather better than their metal counterparts, i'd say. Slimmer blades, more defined edges etc etc.
The only kits that, on average, look worse than the metal ones are, oddly enough, characters, with the only notable exception of the empie wizard and the he wizard from iob.
!My 6th edition rat ogres are much better looking than either the 7th edition metals or plastics. The plastic phoenix guard are definately not as good as the old metals; the helmets are goofy and the cloaks are too bulky IMO. The empire knights were probably worse than the old metals. Heck, I don't even know if I'd say the plastic chaos knights are better than the 6th edition metals. The plastic dire wolves are dreadful; and the plastic ghouls are ...strange. Daemonettes and mounted daemonettes... Bring back the old ones please.

Generally, gw do a great job on their plastics, but it's not always perfect. Even the newest eldar wytches are not without flaws. There are no feminine arms in the set, which makes me wonder if their current plastic technology is capable of making posable elf-lady arms. The similar sized arms on daemonettes had to be posed in very static positions. Also, theres the danger that the current wild hair might dissapear in favour of the old 80's models punk bushy hair. Gw seem to be abandoning a lot of the concept work from the 6th edition elves in favour of the older 5th edition styles. I really don't want to see them go back to those like they did with the plastic daemons and to a lesser degree with the cold one knights helmets.

AlphaLegionMarine
01-01-2011, 15:28
Hmm let's see:

Plastic:
Spearmen
Repeater Crossbowmen
Corsairs
Cold One Knights

Metal:
Blackguard
Witch Elves
Cold One Chariot
Executioners
Hydra
Reaper Bolt Thrower
Dark Riders
Harpies

Things that I would like in plastic:
Dark Riders
Cold One Chariot
Witch Elves
Harpies

We will see what happens, IF we ever get a 2nd wave. It is certainly not in the first three months of the year. I do notice we are lacking in the plastic department for our army however. Only 3 plastic kits really... I know I would not buy any Blackguard or Executioners as I already have 20 of each, and I do not need Witch Elves (I have 59 metal ones). I would buy 2 Cold One Chariots, and a box of plastic Harpies. I doubt I would buy the Dark Riders, because I already have 2 units of 5, so maybe I would buy one box.

AlexHolker
01-01-2011, 15:45
There are no feminine arms in the set, which makes me wonder if their current plastic technology is capable of making posable elf-lady arms.
Seeing as Wyches are a bunch of combat drug-abusing gladiators, it's possible this was done on purpose. Even if it wasn't, they were still limited by GW's choice to put male Wyches in the kit, meaning the arms had to work for both.


Gw seem to be abandoning a lot of the concept work from the 6th edition elves in favour of the older 5th edition styles. I really don't want to see them go back to those like they did with the plastic daemons and to a lesser degree with the cold one knights helmets.
Neither do I. The plastic daemonettes are a perfect example of why vast improvements shouldn't be thrown away out of misplaced nostalgia.

Lord Dan
01-01-2011, 16:08
I think the OP answered his own question. There is nothing random about the models chosen to be redone in a new release. They consider data on kits sold in the past, anticipated sales based on the army's effectiveness in the current edition, and, yes, popularity. Why do you think Space Marines get some kind of release every year?

Despite popular belief GW does not have infinite money, and despite equally popular belief GW is a business first. As a result they do what makes good business sense and release what they believe will sell, regardless of how fair it might be to certain armies.

AlexHolker
01-01-2011, 17:14
Why do you think Space Marines get some kind of release every year?
Because GW is working with incomplete information, and doesn't really get the idea of diminishing returns?

Think of it this way: GW has five different plastic Space Marine Dreadnought kits (AoBR, Standard, Ironclad, Venerable and Furioso). Excluding trees and hermaphrodites, they've got zero female soldier kits. Do you really think an entire gender can't muster the popularity to get even a single plastic mould to call their own, when "half-dead Space Marine in a walker" gets nine?

Chainaxe07
01-01-2011, 17:52
My 6th edition rat ogres are much better looking than either the 7th edition metals or plastics. The plastic phoenix guard are definately not as good as the old metals; the helmets are goofy and the cloaks are too bulky IMO.

I know it's a matter of personal perspective, but while i agree on rat ogres i think the plastic pg are at least on par with the metal ones, and the halberds themselves look a lot less bulky. The whole look is sleeker and more "elven".
Again, i undestand its a matter of personal preference.




The empire knights were probably worse than the old metals. Heck, I don't even know if I'd say the plastic chaos knights are better than the 6th edition metals. The plastic dire wolves are dreadful; and the plastic ghouls are ...strange. Daemonettes and mounted daemonettes... Bring back the old ones please.


Again i could not disagree more about daemonettes and chaos knights.
Well, to each his own.





Generally, gw do a great job on their plastics, but it's not always perfect. Even the newest eldar wytches are not without flaws. There are no feminine arms in the set, which makes me wonder if their current plastic technology is capable of making posable elf-lady arms. The similar sized arms on daemonettes had to be posed in very static positions. Also, theres the danger that the current wild hair might dissapear in favour of the old 80's models punk bushy hair. Gw seem to be abandoning a lot of the concept work from the 6th edition elves in favour of the older 5th edition styles. I really don't want to see them go back to those like they did with the plastic daemons and to a lesser degree with the cold one knights helmets.

The new (well, in 2008) cok were definitely the best imho, and the helmet change was, i think, for the better. Not much love for the manga robot/gundam 7th edition helmets round here. Also that look is more unified compare to the revamped dark eldar, a very similar design but for the crest, shared by just one archon. Well, most of all i think plastic kits are a lot easier to convert, that's probably my main reason for loving plastics! :)

kyussinchains
01-01-2011, 18:44
my only issue is that GW have pulled the metal chariot and harpies, yet haven't released replacements, so you've either got to trawl ebay and bugger about with paint stripper and the like, or spend extra time and money converting your own models.....

my only concern is that every unit detailed in the army book is available to buy.....

sturguard
01-01-2011, 18:53
Lord Dan,

I was speculating, and confused as I always thought Dark Elves were a good sell- so if that is the case, why not more love for the model line? Are Skaven really that good a sell to justify just about every model in their range to be redone? Orc and Goblin is another army that seems to get model after model, are they a big winner? Does anyone have any ideas on how much the armies sell in comparison to each other?

giant stegadon
02-01-2011, 03:50
Because GW is working with incomplete information, and doesn't really get the idea of diminishing returns?

Think of it this way: GW has five different plastic Space Marine Dreadnought kits (AoBR, Standard, Ironclad, Venerable and Furioso). Excluding trees and hermaphrodites, they've got zero female soldier kits. Do you really think an entire gender can't muster the popularity to get even a single plastic mould to call their own, when "half-dead Space Marine in a walker" gets nine?

Sisters of Battle? Oh right, not all that popular.

I wanted new Dark Elf plastics until GW started pricing them the same as metal (uh thanks?). LM Temple Guard seemed to be a strange exception when they were released.

AlexHolker
02-01-2011, 04:02
Sisters of Battle? Oh right, not all that popular.
Metal Sisters of Battle that cost 50 pounds per squad are not popular. That's just common sense: if Space Marines were 2.5 times more expensive, never recieved a multipart plastic kit, and were stuck with degrading moulds made in the '90s they'd be unpopular too.

fastcarfreak
02-01-2011, 08:22
As a dark elves player, the only models I would like to see done would be dark riders, harpies and a new chariot. I don't really think there is a need for anything else. To be honest, I think GW has far more pressing matters with most of their other mini ranges. Specifically when it comes to some of the neglected armies that not only need new minis, but new army books as well... Bretts, Wood Elves, Tomb Kings, Ogre Kingdoms... i think GW should spend the next year, only concentrating on these 4 armies for Fantasy main releases. If they want to do a new kit here or there for some of the other armies, fine... But for no reason should they do full lines of new models for other armies. Skaven was in dire need of a few of the models, because for most, they didn't even have an old model to represent some of the army...

giant stegadon
02-01-2011, 14:30
Plus, Dark Elves got a lot out of Dark Eldar's cool re-release that can be incorporated into fantasy.

Venkh
02-01-2011, 21:01
Bretts, Wood Elves, Tomb Kings, Ogre Kingdoms...

Those armies have a more complete and (mostly) more recent model range than dark elves. The books need upgrading but the model ranges are comparitively fine.

Hopefully a 2nd wave is on its way.

Lord Dan
02-01-2011, 21:06
Lord Dan,

I was speculating, and confused as I always thought Dark Elves were a good sell- so if that is the case, why not more love for the model line? Are Skaven really that good a sell to justify just about every model in their range to be redone? Orc and Goblin is another army that seems to get model after model, are they a big winner? Does anyone have any ideas on how much the armies sell in comparison to each other?

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that GW felt a lot of the DE model line was still sellable - executioners, bolt throwers, black guard, and even the warrior kit all have decent models. I'm sure some are inclined to disagree, but it's obvious GW redid the models that everyone agreed were terrible (the hydra and the cold cow knights), ensured all major core troops were plastic (corsairs), and moved on.

I must also point out that the skaven still have plenty of outdated models, many far more horrendous than anything lingering in the DE line. As the 2nd wave for this month has been confirmed we now know that poison wind globadiers, jezzails, plague censor bearers, several weapons teams, and gutter runners all get to have ugly metal models for quite a while longer. I'd also argue that the night runner and rat ogre kits are completely unusable alongside the new line, but that's beside the point with so many other kits still to do.

lilloser2010
02-01-2011, 21:45
I'd argue that the biggest part of the DArk Elf range that needs updating are the character models.

Druchii are quite a stylish and evocative race. We have seen just how good evil elves can be with the Dark Eldar range. I'd love to see the same level of dedication and skill that was applied to our futuristic kin, to their fantasy counter parts.

To echo other sentiments expressed here, I don't think that Dark Elves are in that bad a shape looking at other armies that were released during the same period. Tomb kings need an overhaul, miniatures and book. Wood Elves need a new set of rules, and so do Bretonians. The only gaps we have in the miniatures range are the Cold one Chariot and the harpies, bits of which can be quite easily converted from other existing ranges.

I can wait for Jes to become available for our new line. Even if it takes a few more years.

LilLoser

someone2040
03-01-2011, 01:35
my only issue is that GW have pulled the metal chariot and harpies, yet haven't released replacements, so you've either got to trawl ebay and bugger about with paint stripper and the like, or spend extra time and money converting your own models.....

my only concern is that every unit detailed in the army book is available to buy.....
You can still get Harpies, they're in the Beastmen section however.
Cold One Chariot is kinda a mystery why you can't still get it. Lots of people expected it was for a plastic kit second wave, but obviously not happened. Given you can still get a Sorceress on the old cold one, doesn't really make sense why they stopped making the chariot.

Scythe
03-01-2011, 11:50
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that GW felt a lot of the DE model line was still sellable - executioners, bolt throwers, black guard, and even the warrior kit all have decent models. I'm sure some are inclined to disagree, but it's obvious GW redid the models that everyone agreed were terrible (the hydra and the cold cow knights), ensured all major core troops were plastic (corsairs), and moved on.

Funny, I was less than impressed with the last release. I actually prefer the old cold one riders over the new ones (I don't dislike the battle cows, and the new riders are pretty bad compared to the old metal ones), prefer the metal corsairs, and while the Hydra has definitely improved, its handlers look like **** compared to the excellent previous models.

Anyway, the 2nd wave DE is not directly needed imho. Sure, it would be nice to get some (properly done) plastic witches, dark riders and harpies, but I think the current elite infantry are still some of the best sculpts out there.

A good BSB model (plastic or metal) would be nice though.

hashrat
04-01-2011, 16:37
I for one wouldn't mind if 2 chariots wouldn't cost me 50. COK box and 2 HE chariots.
Could have done without making Harpies from Deamonettes, shy Deamonettes at that.
Nice Manticore, but can we have a Crone Hellbron or Master to ride it instead of the current growth on its shoulders?
Dark riders, I am happy enough with green stuff and glade riders.
I would add rptr bolt throwers to my list, but they wouldn't cost less.
The biggest thing in my army is a HE dragon, surely we deserve a centrepiece of our own?

Other than those whines, I like the range.

Scelerat
04-01-2011, 18:03
All our elites need to be plasticized, IMO. If not for aesthetics and poseability, for practical reasons:
-Executioners' blades fall off horribly. They are beautiful minis, but their lack of poseability is off-putting.
-Witch Elves are too static, and suffer from Travesty Face Syndrome: cheekbones protruding and ridiculous facial expressions are not a good mix. If Goodwin put his magic to work in this kit it'd be undoubtedly beautiful. Lithe limbs are perfectly do-able, and dynamic poses too. Also, I'm sick of all the horrid Daemonette+Corsair conversions.
-Black Guards are terribad. Their arms are too long, and the helmetless head is... Well, ridiculous. The style and imagery are gold. The Orang-utan arms and silly banner are not.
-Chariots: For Khaine's sake. Please. Now.

I consider the Phoenix Guard + Dragon Princes + White Lions release a good omen, but that's just me being optimistic.