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Palimpseste
02-01-2011, 09:50
Hello everybody,

I was thinking of building a small force of CSM when a question strikes me :
what happened to the CSM Apothecaries ?

They aren't mentioned in any CSM codice and I can't find anything about them .

So if any of you knows or speculates something about them, let me know .

Thanks a lot .

Pal'

Born Again
02-01-2011, 09:56
AFAIK, it's one of those things that's never been mentioned. Bile is probably the closest thing to a Chaos Apothecary. Interestingly enough, however, there are several mentions of the recruitment process and fighting over or stealing gene-seed. This would indicate that someone is still doing the work. As they've never been mentioned, they either stay in the shadows, and if they fight on the battlefield are just like regular marines, or it's a non-Astartes doing the work. The Dark Mechanicus' equivalent of the Magos Biologis, perhaps?

Devastator
02-01-2011, 09:58
at least IW ones are called fleshsmiths(?)

Mage
02-01-2011, 10:14
I think one is mentioned in the CSM book about the Red Corsairs attacking the Space Wolf ship, I think.

Scalebug
02-01-2011, 10:26
It's one of those things that show up all the time in the background but are not in the army list. E.g Fabrikus of the World Eaters in the short story Apothecarys Hounour in the "Dark Imperium" anthology.

Usually the plot revolves around them torturing people and stealing gene-seed from fallen loyalist Marines.

ChaosTicket
02-01-2011, 12:02
Old Legion Apothecaries have since become mad scientists like Techmarines, both fulfilling their designated roles, but with them changing their ways to deal with the mutating power of chaos, such as daemon infested vehicles, or creating new organs from stolen genseed.

New Ones would be possible to recruit, even captured POWs from Loyalists chapters.

Overall Chaos chapter/legions would probably have the same officers, but they would be twisted, and GW decided not to create any rules, but rather just say they all became Champions or Lords of various warbands, and their tools have mysteriously vanished.

Old-Four-Arms
02-01-2011, 12:06
There was some information in the old "Slaves To Darkness" book :

World Eaters Apothecaries only remaining duty (apart from general maiming and killing) was to retrieve the geneseed of their fallen brethren.

Emperors Childrens Apothecaries fluff said something about them rendering down victims into new (combat) drugs, if memory serves me right (since I sold the book)...

Also, Aaron Dembski-Bowden's character Talos is a former Apothecary of the Night Lords Legion

Hope this helps,

Old-Four-Arms

Born Again
02-01-2011, 12:18
I think one is mentioned in the CSM book about the Red Corsairs attacking the Space Wolf ship, I think.

Yes, although the way it is phrased, "once Chief Apothecary of the Astral Claws" (my emphasis) would imply that, for the Corsairs at least, the position no longer officially exists, or the role has changed so dramatically that it was renamed.

Vaulkhar
02-01-2011, 12:40
'Former Chief Apothecary of the Astral Claws' could be interpreted as 'was Chief Apothecary of the Astral Claws, until the position ceased to exist because the Astral Claws became the Red Corsairs, probably fragmented a bit as various captains blamed Huron for the loss of the Badab War and started picking up renegades from under every rock near the Maelstrom."

Palimpseste
02-01-2011, 14:58
Thanks for all your replies, I think I'll be including Apothecaries in my coming Night Lords force =) .


and stealing gene-seed from fallen loyalist Marines.
I don't really get this point: the gene-seeds contains the essence of the chapter, its traditions,legends and so on.
It's also told that some memories are "written" in the gene seeds so how could a CSM be created with the gene-seeds of a loyal marine ?

Surgency
02-01-2011, 15:15
while the memories are written in the gene seed, they still require training, conditioning, and hypno-therapy to make the Marine what he is. Without that, he's just a really strong, really big, abhuman. Add into that the CSM own version of "hypnotherapy" and you can imagine how ineffective the gene memories might be

Idaan
02-01-2011, 15:25
Necrosius, the Nurgle Sorcerer in Siege of Vraks vol. III is an ex-Apothecary of the Death Guard. So I imagine most of them found more interesting and less servile roles - because let's face it, what worshipper of Chaos will help others for a living?

DeSnifter
02-01-2011, 15:55
I would imagine to some extent that the apothecaries of the traitor marines are far to valuable to have a primary battlefield role. Without the apothecaries and their knowledge the traitors would be hard pressed to maintain their numbers as best they could. That could be one reason to explain their apparent absence from the chaos books. Or the design team just said lets get rid of everything a space marine command squad can have and add spikes.... Genius! This army is totally different now!

orangesm
02-01-2011, 16:13
Yes, although the way it is phrased, "once Chief Apothecary of the Astral Claws" (my emphasis) would imply that, for the Corsairs at least, the position no longer officially exists, or the role has changed so dramatically that it was renamed.


'Former Chief Apothecary of the Astral Claws' could be interpreted as 'was Chief Apothecary of the Astral Claws, until the position ceased to exist because the Astral Claws became the Red Corsairs, probably fragmented a bit as various captains blamed Huron for the loss of the Badab War and started picking up renegades from under every rock near the Maelstrom."

In AI9 (pg 180), Apothecary Vivisectors/'corpse takers' recover the gene-seed of any fallen Space Marine. It is a unit in the Tyrant's Legion list.

ashc
02-01-2011, 18:23
I would imagine it very much depends on the personality of the apothecaries/warbands/legions in question. Some may still serve as traditional apothecaries, others having branched off to experiment and either rule warbands themselves or hide away to perform their insane experiments.

Some warbands may have no apothecaries at all, and instead rely on other methods of recruitment, such as techniques from the Dark Mechanicus and persuading other traitors to their cause.

Tenzing
02-01-2011, 18:41
They've been mentioned now and again, but all the "hard and fast" info was in Rogue Trader era, so no longer reliable.

Fabulous Bill was an Apothecary though, so presumably they went "Frankenstein crazy" when all the spikes and tentacles started appearing with no good reason!

spetswalshe
02-01-2011, 18:59
No matter how evil you are, you still need medical officers, particularly if you're an army that requires a pretty hefty medical investment to begin with. Whether they would still have the exact same position and role with the renegades as they do with the loyalists is probably a pretty easy question to answer; sometimes. Things change when you start growing spikes; Chaos Apothecaries (or Apocalypsaries, as they probably call themselves) likely spend as much time staving off/encouraging/controlling their unit's mutations as they would standing over the medtanks containing the new recruits ("Apothecary-master! Uncontrollable mutation is ripping through subject #22's body!" "What does the cardio read-out say?" "Um... Cardio signs are normal." "He's probably fine, I'm hitting the strip-club. If he escapes brain him with the lamp or something.")

Ertle
02-01-2011, 21:16
In the book Soul Hunter the main protagonist Talos was a former apothecary. Due to equipment failure he's lost his narthecium and reductor over the course of the Long War. He merely extracts the gene-seed with a combat blade but other than that acts like a normal Astartes albeit a chaosy one.

Jackal_Strain
02-01-2011, 21:38
I imagine most traitor legionnaire apothecaries probably banded together and formed separate factions or at least consolidated their positions of power as quickly as possible when they fled into the eye of terror.
Think about it. They were (are?) the only ones with the necessary knowledge and skills in creating new marines. Once they threw of the shackles of loyalty to the imperium and the monastic lifestyle of servitude and duty, it's pretty likely that the only ones they remained loyal to were themselves.
This probably means that the former apothecaries could charge what prices (within reason) they deemed appropriate for their services, and most chaos lords would outbid one another in order to secure their loyalties.

Goatboy
02-01-2011, 22:46
I expect they exist. But as most CSM groups are more like warbands then any surviving(and mortal) front line officers are probably covered by the existing Lord and Sorcerer choices.

Covering Fire
03-01-2011, 07:21
If I recall correctly there has been mentions of something called Chirumeks in BL CSM novels (Storm of Iron and the Word Bearers series). They seem to do some of the Apothecary duties (ie extracting geneseed).

MagosHereticus
03-01-2011, 07:55
they are not represented on the battlefield because they dont act like medics, they dont care for helping wounded marines, they are complete bastards

sgtspiff
03-01-2011, 09:55
I would say that they're still needed. They have the knowledge of creating new marines and most of the CSM seems to do that.
Though if I was a CSM Lord I would have kept at least one in a leash. So that I get new marines (and he doesn't get mad and brings just monsters).

Earthbeard
03-01-2011, 15:26
Necrosius, the Nurgle Sorcerer in Siege of Vraks vol. III is an ex-Apothecary of the Death Guard. So I imagine most of them found more interesting and less servile roles - because let's face it, what worshipper of Chaos will help others for a living?

I'd say any worshiper would for a price :P

MagosHereticus
03-01-2011, 15:26
I would say that they're still needed. They have the knowledge of creating new marines and most of the CSM seems to do that.
Though if I was a CSM Lord I would have kept at least one in a leash. So that I get new marines (and he doesn't get mad and brings just monsters).

i'm sure it's just easier to pay the various factions able to make new marines then have one kept as a slave, probably safer too

i'd also like if they expanded upon captured marines being brainwashed into joining chaos as well

prowla
03-01-2011, 20:00
You would expect the more regular Chaos Marines needing some patching up after battles, too, and maybe give 'em an augmentic or two. Which reminds me, why isn't there any cyborg-wannabe CSMs around? You'd think a few millenia of battle would result in several limb loss, especially for guys like Alpha Legion who's connection to the Warp is reduced and hence they are less like to grow tentacles around.

Aliarzathanil
04-01-2011, 08:50
Many Iron Warriors have cybernetic replacements and are noted for cutting off mutated limbs and replacing them. Most CSM, if suitable devoted and evil, probably just grow a new limb (although what form it takes might not be entirely of their choosing).

Covering Fire
08-01-2011, 08:54
they are not represented on the battlefield because they dont act like medics, they dont care for helping wounded marines, they are complete bastards

In Dark Creed on p. 346 it says the following: "[..] and hunched chirumeks attended to the wounded."

This was when the Word Bearers had just returned to their ship in orbit, so it may be true that they do no accompany the Chaos forces on the battlefield. But it seems clear that they do tend to the wounded. Then again, I don't know if this should be treated as canon, but there it is.

MagosHereticus
08-01-2011, 11:45
In Dark Creed on p. 346 it says the following: "[..] and hunched chirumeks attended to the wounded."

This was when the Word Bearers had just returned to their ship in orbit, so it may be true that they do no accompany the Chaos forces on the battlefield. But it seems clear that they do tend to the wounded. Then again, I don't know if this should be treated as canon, but there it is.

what's a chirumek?

Sorrow Seer
08-01-2011, 11:49
Cross between a chirurgeon and mech?

They are held in high regard are they not, considering the rarity of them and the high need, not likely to see them on the battlefield.

ChaosTicket
08-01-2011, 15:12
More like Apothecary/servitors and with a splash of daemon for dark admech measure.