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blackstork
03-01-2011, 15:40
Hello,
I invite you to discussion about new Tomb Kings, which probably will come in 5-6 mounths.
What changes must be made that TK will be a solid army? What things would be funny or interesting? Please rational and considered answers.

I think all Undead units should be immune to poison.
Constructs need a better armour.
TK are similar to ancient Egypt, so maybe a great treasures to make your characters more survivable and powered. A lot of magic items would be a good pretext for allow more than one champion in units (as in Dwarf Slayers) with option to equip each in magic item to 25 points.
My brother has idea to improve Tomb Scorpion. It would be nice when during the movement phase Scorpion (normally deployed) go underground and use It came from bellow rule.

What's your thoughs? Maybe something we will find in armybook. Let's try!

Caitsidhe
03-01-2011, 16:04
By in large, the single greatest fix would be a massive reduction in prices. Fear simply isn't that great an ability anymore and Tomb Kings pay a premium for it. Their core are awful. Charge them what they are worth and increase the size of the blocks and this alone would make them vastly more competitive. If they had the ability to swamp opponents with an endless horde of mediocre but appropriately priced models, the balance of power would shift.

Magic needs work. How they mean to put it more in line with 8th Edition, I have no clue.

Novrain
03-01-2011, 16:19
25% to 30% decrease in core and special choices for the most part.

BaSe
03-01-2011, 16:22
If they reduced costs but left magic as it is i could see them become too powerful. The magic has the potential currently to be too unstoppable which doesn't matter at the moment due to the over priced/ weak units. It's going to be interesting how they fix them.

Bgmique
03-01-2011, 16:32
Just leaving the costs for characters would be ok, but the core and special choices definately need a reduction, a boost in stats, or a compromise between the two.

I'd like my King to learn how to ride a horse.

Voss
03-01-2011, 16:40
I think all Undead units should be immune to poison.


A specific anti-undead poison has been part of the warhammer background for over two decades. No dice.


As to what they need-
they need to not be saddled with two separate, overpriced characters as vulnerabilities. As necessary as the priests are, the Kings are the focal point of the army, and the army-wide crumble rule should reflect that, not picking on the nearly defenseless priests.

They need to be interesting. An undead army with shooting attacks is nifty, but the army needs to do something beyond castle up and fling attacks as rapidly as possible.

Sexiest_hero
03-01-2011, 16:44
Not much. you seem to want way to many things.

I think their works fine it's unique.

1. Return of Mummies. It's a glaring omission now.

2.White dwarf Construct Litch lord added. Maybe some God possesed Statute or something.

3. Hate towards Vampire counts. If not hate for all living armies. The undead hate the living But they Hate the Vampire counts more.

4. Skeletons can stay the same cost granted they get more perks. Hand weapon shield AND slings. Like their Egyptian counterparts. Or maybe A sand storm rule that counts them as having an Iron Curse Icon.

5. Something with Pharaoh in the name

6. Two different spell lists Like VC. Curses for Kings and Incantations for priests.

Curses. Curse of boils. Hex Target unit that attempts to march takes a wound on a 6 for each model in the unit. (it hurts just thinking about it)

Curse of the Baking Sun. Hex Lower any stat by 1 to a Min of 1. (leather straps crack, swords become painful to hold sunstroke and dehydration set in)

Curse of the first born. Hex roll a dice for every enemy unit. On a 6 the unit is visited by the herald of death. Roll another dice for each model in the unit on a 6 it is removed from the game with no saves at all. Lords, monsters, and heroes only take one wound Look out sir can be taken. (yes this is an army wide hex, as the Herald of death lingers over until dispelled!)

Curse of the Angry GODS! A target unit is struck by the worst plague possible. The unit becomes an Abomination to existence itself. All friendly units within 12" must take a LD test on their on LD. IF failed units without ranged attacks will do 2d6 hits at the base Str of the firing unit as they hurl swords, shields, boots, helms, and whatever else they can at the unspeakable horror before them. All ranged units will use their ranged attacks. and Wizards will attempt to cast a vortex or direct damage spell using 2 free power dice that can not cause a miscast if IF is rolled. If any model in the hexed unit is left alive, all units within 12" must make a normal panic check(friend or foe). Note this panic check would affect tomb king allies.

theorox
03-01-2011, 16:52
I would like the models to be a bit more generic, and a liiittle less Egyptian. Then i could make a Barrowkings army of the north. :D

Theo

Voss
03-01-2011, 17:07
Not much. you seem to want way to many things.
Was this irony? Your list is very long indeed.


3. Hate towards Vampire counts. If not hate for all living armies. The undead hate the living But they Hate the Vampire counts more.


We have two hate-based armies already. Another is simply ridiculous. And the TK troops are either mindless puppets (which precludes hatred) or could be re-imagined as just plain folks who happen to be undead (which would be more interesting, and keep in with the 'neutral' attitude reinforced in 8th ed)

Sexiest_hero
03-01-2011, 17:36
Most of the OP's requests want to overcome all the weaknesses of the TKs. Mine simply add flavor to them. Scorpions that can re burrow are a lot more OP than skeletons with slings that still cost 10 points. Hatred VS VC is no near more than one unit cham that can take 25 points of magic weps. The King curses I added just for fun.

ooglatjama
03-01-2011, 17:47
Why does everyone want another generic shambling horde of lolskeletons? VCalready tried that and it is boring. TK should break the mold and be fast, elite undead. They've been battling and maybe sentient for thousands of years, why would they be content with "uugh shamble forward and poke the enemy".

DeathlessDraich
03-01-2011, 17:51
@Sexiesthero - Yes adding 'flavour' makes the army tastier. :)

I also prefer changes that generate greater interest but which is still in keeping with the Egyptian desert theme.

The problem is, translating that theme into actual rules is rather difficult

So here’s my list based on that theme:

1) Master of the Sands - The TK army are masters of the harsh desert conditions and are able to move and manoeuvre far better than their enemy.
Army wide rule except for Flyers, all mounts and Warmachines. All units with this rule benefit from It came from below. Banner with this rule modified to auto emerge?
In addition when rolling to charge against TK units all dice rolls of 6 have to be re-rolled.

2) Dune - The Tomb King converts a hill into a huge dune.
If a Tomb King is present in the army, the TK player can nominate 1 hill before deployment and convert it into a dune. Replace that hill with an appropriate terrain.
A Dune gives +1CR to any TK on the hill when charged. When charging from the hill the TK unit gains +2CR instead of the normal +1CR?
It came from below does not work on the Dune.

3) Sandstorm (Khamsin) – A huge sandstorm is created which momentarily blinds the enemy and stops them from moving.
New Incantation ( or 1 use magic item). Magical vortex. Small template scatters Artillery dice. Affected units cannot march,shoot or charge in the next turn?

4) Sunstroke – Liche Priest ability –The Sun God Ra favours his devoted Liche Priests and will smite their enemies in battle
Enemy units wishing to target a unit with a Liche Priest suffers -1 to Wound penalty?

5) Parched (One use Skeleton Warrior Magic Standard?) – The desert takes it toll on those who are unprepared.
Any enemy unit in combat with the bearer or his unit suffers -1WS cumulative with Fear. This lasts for all subsequent combat rounds. If the unit has WS1 it suffers -1S instead?

6) Mummified (Character upgrade) – Anubis, lord of the underworld send those who fail in battle to fight again or regain their honour.Any slain character immediately re-emerges 6” from the point where he died with 1 wound and other stats/items intact.

7) Casket upgrade – Quicksand By decree of Indiana Jones
Any enemy unit within 6” of COS takes a Dangerous terrain test?

8) Riddle of the Sphinx No one may find the unit anointed by the Sphinx before the battle commences
One unit may be re-deployed at the end of the deployment phase before Vanguard movement

Yamabushi
03-01-2011, 17:52
More hex/buff incantations would be nice...
Perhaps some static boost to I and WS if a King/Prince is in a unit.
No UBER doom-spells
Constructs in Lord and Heroes section
Price drop is almost a certainty

Brother Alexos
03-01-2011, 19:18
I agree with the price decrease. I currently play a TK list against a friend with Skaven. He gets two Rats for every Skeleton I have, so he wins most battles, and only ties in others.

I think that magic should be a larger role in the TK book, along with tougher skeletons. An elite army of undead is extremely interesting to me, I could imagine that, since Nehekhara was the undisputed champions of the world back in their time, they would have had alot better units and better troops altogether.

But I think that, if TK do become a more elite undead army, we need either more Warmachines, or more Cavalry options. As it is, our cavalry sucks, and we have one warmachine, which makes our options for softening up large units almost nothing. Something like a Bolt Thrower, or a form of Egyptian mythology that would be the equivalent of a cannon.

EDIT:
Maybe something like the Engine of Ra, being some form of Gigantic Magnifying glass, that causes multiple flaming attacks? Using the egyptian gods as a basis would work, in my opinion. That, along with some more Lords and Heros. I mean, sure the Kings and Priests are the main attraction, no army can operate efficiently with only two or three commanders. I mean, how many princes can one guy have? My dad can barely handle me and my two brothers.

muggins
03-01-2011, 19:55
Was this irony? Your list is very long indeed.



We have two hate-based armies already. Another is simply ridiculous. And the TK troops are either mindless puppets (which precludes hatred) or could be re-imagined as just plain folks who happen to be undead (which would be more interesting, and keep in with the 'neutral' attitude reinforced in 8th ed)

GW wouldn't go back on all the fluff (and the Black Library current line of books) where Nagash basically screwed over the people of Nehekhara.

Hypna
03-01-2011, 20:48
I'm going to go ahead and second the motion for a more elite style undead. Not to say that the shambling skeletons need to go, but that some elite infantry and cavalry would be an excellent edition.

Pharolyx
03-01-2011, 20:55
Giant carrion mount
Tomb Giant w/ bow (bolt thrower)
Sphinx-type monster
Better item customization, atleast for kings and liche priests.
More competitive magic

Pulstar
03-01-2011, 21:12
Core to cost less and have larger unit sizes. Chariots have full ranks if three wide, or classed as MC.

Turn Heavy Horsemen into mounted tomb guard and moved to special.

LP/HLP priest to use winds of magic to cast death/shadow magic. TK and TP still use incantations, but bump to 2 per TP, 3 per TK.

Tarliyn
04-01-2011, 01:36
LP/HLP priest to use winds of magic to cast death/shadow magic. TK and TP still use incantations, but bump to 2 per TP, 3 per TK.

I love this idea

Charistoph
04-01-2011, 05:20
In the last TK Wishlist, someone suggested a slight WS upgrade for the skeletons. These aren't the reluctant dead, dragged from their graves by necromantic magic, but soldiers who dedicated themselves to their Princes and Kings and stepped into the tombs expecting to rise and fight for their lords. The Liche's magic is also more stable and stronger than the Vampire's Necromancy, allowing more of the body's original spirit to operate the bodies of the dead. BS upgrade would be nice, too, but for balance, they'd have to lose their special shooting rule, which I am not a fan of.

I'm all for mummies. Let's the wrappers onto the field.

Bone Giant options and even that character Liche Priest that encased himself in a Bone Giant and made Ushabti Core would be nice.

Trains_Get_Robbed
04-01-2011, 06:04
Seshemet, Price drops, increase in stats, more varied incantaions, a rework of incans. so that they are bound spells that can fail (having something work on a 1 is F*ing stupid) and perhaps throwing in the Sphinx and other mount options for the Kings/Princes shouhld do fine.

Enigmatik1
04-01-2011, 06:16
I can't co-sign on the cheaper skeletons deal even though the precedent is there given how utterly bad they are now...which is saying something considering they were bad in 7E.

No, simply make them worth their point cost via a stat increase or other abilities and be done with it. There is next to no differentiation between our skeletons and Vampire Count skeletons save theirs are slightly cheaper (but still terribad) and they can't shoot. This would extend even to the Tomb Guard.

The rest of the list I have little issue with, although the constructs collectively are not durable enough given how tough as nails constructs usually are in other games. There are usually only a handful of ways to actually hurt/destroy a construct and while I'm not saying that they should be that hard to destroy, they need better saves and/or an additional save to reflect their durability. Carrion are in bad shape due to movement changes. I'm not sure how to fix them honestly...I didn't use them much before b/c I don't like the models even though I own 5 of them (a gift).

Liche Priests either need to be cheaper and less essential or as essential as they currently are and flat out better. I view them as a massive, but necessary liability when building lists. At most I'll field two and that's only if I'm running a Casket. Otherwise, I load up on combat characters because they're the only way our overpriced and underpowered units will have a prayer against other armies core units.

Kings and Princes are fine for the most part. Maybe more MWBD options to tailor your list to suit your playstyle. The ability to ride a horse is nice but will be largely pointless unless the cavalry get increased in effectiveness...which I'm not really seeing.

Then there's the Icon Bearer. This guy, while the only cheap unit in the book relatively speaking, still has tons of issues. He should be a Tomb Guard unit upgrade, not a Hero since taking him reduces the magic phase considerably, we can't use most of what makes BSBs useful and we have no good banners over 50 points.

smithers
04-01-2011, 09:03
I'm with those here saying "cheaper is not the fix"

The whole playstyle of TK is based on weak/moderate units that have to be used together and supported by magic to be effective. I love that about the army and just wish there was more variety in the units an in the magic.

Seriously, if GW just did some cost adjustments and rolled out some new models I'd probably sell my army and quit the hobby. Thankfully they have a lot more creativity than that!

Anyways, chariots need to rank in 3s that's an obvious fix, and since GW would love for more people to go buy a boatload of em (like I did when I started TK in 7th) I bet there will be some other nice perks to encourage chariot heavy armies.

Tomb Guard need to lose the 25 model cap and I'd like to see another boost. Heavy armor doesn't fit quite right, and GW makes them too much like grave guard, so maybe some new special rule like "On TK player's turn, a wounded TG unit gains d3 models back, to starting size".

Would love to have Carrion receive "It came from above" as deploy option

Bone Giant could get a free upgrade option: shield or javelin

So many of our magic items, chariot upgrades, etc... became irrelevant with 8th. I can't wait to see what that list looks like in the upcoming book! Incantations should stay pretty close to what they are now, but I could see 3 going to six to include a hex and a couple buffs (poison attacks please!)

I like the Icon bearer and think he's a viable choice even now but hopefully the new item/banner list will cause him to get fielded more often. Currently we have some really cool banners that are just almost useful; it's frustrating!

Oh, and yeah, I guess a liche encased in an Ushabti champ would be pretty damn cool! I'm less keen on other huge monsters though there just aren't enough points to go around I usually can't even fit a bone giant in.


So anyways, I guess what I'm hoping is that the list is revised by someone with a lot of experience playing TK who actually likes the way the army works. I guess I'm against big point adjustment, since if you price skellies to compete with other core then the kinds of magic synergy that makes TK work becomes prohibitively overpowered.

Hitsugaya Toushiro
04-01-2011, 09:59
-Ushabti hero-level choice

-Changed and improved (expecially more various) magic

-Units can march if 6" near a Liche/king/prince like the Vampire VC rule

-Ushabti improved expecially with an AS/WS/regeneration

-Improved bone giant

-Improved Tomb Guard expecially making them like Grave Guard...with great weapons etc

-Mummies unit with flails/gr.weapons

-Heavy Cavarly with better AS and with flails.....or make them as Mounted Grave Guard

-More useful light chariots and option for flails for crew

-Skeleton Warriors that are useful

-Poison Arrows option for Skeleton Archers even without Khalida

-Improved Casket of Souls with new powers

-new monster unit...Sphinx...or Giant Sand Worm....or something else

Spiney Norman
04-01-2011, 15:24
I can't co-sign on the cheaper skeletons deal even though the precedent is there given how utterly bad they are now...which is saying something considering they were bad in 7E.

No, simply make them worth their point cost via a stat increase or other abilities and be done with it. There is next to no differentiation between our skeletons and Vampire Count skeletons save theirs are slightly cheaper (but still terribad) and they can't shoot. This would extend even to the Tomb Guard.

The rest of the list I have little issue with, although the constructs collectively are not durable enough given how tough as nails constructs usually are in other games. There are usually only a handful of ways to actually hurt/destroy a construct and while I'm not saying that they should be that hard to destroy, they need better saves and/or an additional save to reflect their durability. Carrion are in bad shape due to movement changes. I'm not sure how to fix them honestly...I didn't use them much before b/c I don't like the models even though I own 5 of them (a gift).

Liche Priests either need to be cheaper and less essential or as essential as they currently are and flat out better. I view them as a massive, but necessary liability when building lists. At most I'll field two and that's only if I'm running a Casket. Otherwise, I load up on combat characters because they're the only way our overpriced and underpowered units will have a prayer against other armies core units.

Then there's the Icon Bearer. This guy, while the only cheap unit in the book relatively speaking, still has tons of issues. He should be a Tomb Guard unit upgrade, not a Hero since taking him reduces the magic phase considerably, we can't use most of what makes BSBs useful and we have no good banners over 50 points.

Fixing skeletons eh? I would dearly love to see them remain their current price, but the question of how to make them worth it is a tricky one. Essentially because brainless dead things animated by magic really should be worse at fighting than a living, trained soldier with average to good reactions. My personal feeling is that while they shouldn’t be better at fighting they should be harder to kill. Think of it this way, if you’re fighting a mortal soldier and skewer him through the rib cage he’s down and out, its rather tricky to carry on fighting when you’ve got a metal spearhead sticking through your heart.

Now what happens if you’ve got no heart, and come to that no nerves (ergo no pain), that spear thrust in your chest becomes little more than a minor inconvenience. Think of it this way, you cut off a skeletons sword arm, and he belts you with his shield, you cut off his other arm and he head-butts you, you cut off his legs and he bites at your knee-caps. The scary thing about undead should be that they keep coming, nothing hurts them, and according to generic folk-lore the only way to kill them is to cut off the head and (possibly) burn the body.

I don’t think increased toughness would be warranted but I would advocate either a second wound, or maybe some kind of ward/regen save (not that the skeletons would actually regenerate, think of it more by its 40K name of “feel no pain”, the fact that they can take the damage and keep on going, a skeleton is hardly going to be impeded by an arrow to the ribcage for example). Of course they should have an achilles heel, perhaps magical attacks would ignore their save (representing the magic that binds them being undone) or maybe the save would only work within 12” of the Hierophant (or perhaps improve with proximatey to the hierophant).

Although I rather not be so prescriptive in my desires regarding a new TK book. As long as the end result can compete with Skaven on an equal footing I will be pleased with the result.

As for liche priests I don't take any these days. A high priest, a King and a prince or two generally does me well, occasionally with an icon bearer. I slightly rue the loss of the casket, but 8E is a tough environment for the kings and hard decisions have to be made. I think the bearer has become vastly more palatable in 8E, he can finally contribute to your magic phase (ruby ring) and the battle standard is so useful in the current edition its difficult to say no to, esp if your King is wearing the wizarding hat.

It always made me mad that a single priest had about the same magical output as a L1 wizard, but cost almost twice as many points...

DeathlessDraich
04-01-2011, 17:22
1) An elite Undead army - I hope not - it will be playing HE with Undead modifications

2) Cheaper skeletons, cheaper units costs - I hope not again - It will be playing with the same army only bigger. VC can have the horde style so TK should have something different

I would like to see Interesting changes

A) 'It came from below' for the Whole army except warmachines and flyers
B) Nehekara's Touch - Liche Priests can convert enemy models into skeletons
C) A new Core unit e.g. Undead Slaves - super cheap but with a negative twist e.g. wander off the board when it it loses >half its models

Pulstar
04-01-2011, 18:04
As GW's job is to sell figs, I see them cutting the cost of skeletons and upping the unit sizes. This will mean you have to go out and buy more skeletons.

I see people want mummies, but do they just want mummy models or do they want an uber hard unit? Aren't that what the Ushabti are?

As far as models go..

I'd love to see a plastic Ushabit box set and a change to the rules for upgrade options. Command group, Extra Hand weapons, Great weapons.

I'd also like to see a tomb scorp model the doesn't take two bottles of glue and most of the skin off of your forefinger and thumb to put together.

Caitsidhe
04-01-2011, 18:08
You won't see much the way of changes to stats. One look at the back of the basic rulebook shows you what the stats are going to REMAIN. That means changes will have to be to the numbers allowed in units and other methods which doesn't overwrite what they just published.

gdsora
04-01-2011, 20:38
I want a Large Monster/Mount


It may not be fluffy, seem out of place, may make the army more like the rest.


But when i have to fight against
Dragons
Chimeras
Steam Tanks
Any other "Monster"

And well I have umm my King on a Chariot. You can never get that Awe Inspiring terror in your opponent. (Yes Bone Giant...give it a bow and i will be happy, otherwise I use it...and it just whiffs in combat,WHY WS3...whhhhy, or gets shot down by Magic/machine...quickly)

Liche Priests, either get Stat Changes/Incantation Changes
or point reduction. High Liche Priests are silly expensive, easy to kill, and can only Powerfully cast weak spells.
They are also HUGE liability (Hierophant + Crumble)
Thankfully Tomb kings dont have such a bad time with Crumble as vampires (High LD scores, outside of core) IT still sucks to start losing your army

New Magic items.
Most of our Weapons are flat out useless, while the rest are okay "
Examples Include:
Serpent Staff
Blade of Mourning
Crook & Flail (wouldnt mind so much if it didnt require 2 hands)
As much as I hate to Admit DoE since the FAQ said you can not use its ability during the magic phase

Better access to armor? 8th edition magic items really helped, but sometimes it doesnt seem enough
Yes, I know T5 hero with 3 Wounds, and T5 Lord with 4 wounds and the ability to get healed. But if you think, its not hard for any Enemy Hero/Lord to have S6/7, better WS, Better I, and better Armor, and can be healed.

A Change to Catapults, S3 nerf was no fun, Armor saves is still no fun. Sure I can double shoot it (remember though, im paying HERO/LORD points to do this), and I can place it, but it still can scatter aaawwwaaaay. Also Re-Rollable LD Saves + General LD, means panic is very Rare

Huge reduction in skeleton Cost, or major Stat buff
There price means they will never outnumber a unit, and if they do it probably means there up against a very elite unit

Removal of Heavy Cav/ Make them a Modification of Light Calv
Make Light Cav useful other then charge redirectors. (Flee? so they can annoy people like those empire pistoleers)

Tomb Swarms are fine i guess, I only use them as a road pump for my casket (as they dont block line of sight) or war machine hunting, if i dont need that road bump

Chariots
Rank of 3 please... do not know why this wasnt errated
Allow Characters in chariots to join them (last time i checked, there still was that errata problem, chariot units can have characters join them, but characters in chariots can never join units)
Point Reduction? Stat Change?
They are pricey and similar to ushabti glass cannony. With attacks back it means you cant rely on chariots not taking wounds


Tomb Guard, why are Grave Guard.... the exact same but better? My favorite unit being the toughest while still having good damage output. There Price and Unit cap make it so you can never have enough of them

A Change to Scorpions, Its much riskier to Snipe characters with them thanks to Initiative based combat (They've been cut down before they could even attack)
Though they still can hunt down war machines fine

Change to Ushabti
New 8th ed rules, made them even more Glass Cannony in combat(MORE ATTACKS), and easier to kill (more powerful shooting) outside of combat ( AHHH SKINKS, Armor piercing Xbows, Gun powder Weapons D:)

WarmbloodedLizard
04-01-2011, 22:12
general:
-give all undead a 6+ Wardsave against attacks below S5 (they are bony!)
-no max unit sizes

skeletons:
-All skeletons within 12" of the General get +1WS
-warriors: have LA and may exchange their bows for shields.
-cav: have LA and cost 11 points; may have HA, S + spears for +3pts/model (remove heavy cav)
-TG: may have add. HW or GW for +1pt/model

constructs:
-can always strike back, even if destroyed (the magic in them sticks longer)
-get +1AS (they are bony!)

chariots:
-rank up 3 wide

Charistoph
05-01-2011, 04:24
You won't see much the way of changes to stats. One look at the back of the basic rulebook shows you what the stats are going to REMAIN. That means changes will have to be to the numbers allowed in units and other methods which doesn't overwrite what they just published.

There is no justification for this remark. In fact, it's more likely the other way around. As soon as the 8th Edition Army Book comes out for the army, that has priority, or should we point out all the changes that occurred to armies in 7th Edition, two army books were split into three, and whole unit types changed between armies, and that wasn't the biggest change last edition to army books.

dinobot
05-01-2011, 08:10
To expand on the skeleton buffing idea:

- Give Skeletons WS4 and armour piercing to represent how they were elite troops in their lifetime

- Give them a TK equivalent of runes/marks. Maybe instead of magic standards, they can have standards enscribed with hieroglyphs. You could have multiples of the same hieroglyph in an army, and they could do fluffy stuff like "parching sun: models in contact with a unit bearing this hieroglyph take a strength 2 flaming hit"

- Allow more synergy between skeletons and heroes. The VC army is partially characterised by how it's heroes are so good at buffing their rank&file. The TK could offer something along the same lines, however it could be more symbiotic with the rank&file buffing the heroes in turn.

Example: when a priest is in a unit of skeletons, he summons a sand storm to mask their position, conferring a -1 to hit for all archers firing on the unit. For their part the skeletons, in obligation to oaths sworn in life, sacrifice themselves to protect their master, allowing an accompying priest to reappropriate wounds directed at him onto the skeletons instead.

Spiney Norman
05-01-2011, 10:11
To expand on the skeleton buffing idea:

- Give Skeletons WS4 and armour piercing to represent how they were elite troops in their lifetime

- Give them a TK equivalent of runes/marks. Maybe instead of magic standards, they can have standards enscribed with hieroglyphs. You could have multiples of the same hieroglyph in an army, and they could do fluffy stuff like "parching sun: models in contact with a unit bearing this hieroglyph take a strength 2 flaming hit"


No, absolutely not, there is no way an undead skeleton should be better at fighting than an Empire halberdier, they're animated dead things with no will or memory of their past life. Just possibly I would accept them going up to WS3 with Tomb Guard being raised to WS4. However the reality is that skeleton stats have been largely the same since the dawn of warhammer, and I really can't see GW wanting to make TK skeletons different to VC ones, certainly not that much better

I very much like the hierpglyphs idea, although I anticipate bucket loads of rage from dwarf players if they simply steal the way runes work.



- Allow more synergy between skeletons and heroes. The VC army is partially characterised by how it's heroes are so good at buffing their rank&file. The TK could offer something along the same lines, however it could be more symbiotic with the rank&file buffing the heroes in turn.

Example: when a priest is in a unit of skeletons, he summons a sand storm to mask their position, conferring a -1 to hit for all archers firing on the unit. For their part the skeletons, in obligation to oaths sworn in life, sacrifice themselves to protect their master, allowing an accompying priest to reappropriate wounds directed at him onto the skeletons instead.

Not sure on this one, perhaps priests could grant some kind of bonus to those near them (regen perhaps), with the hierophant offering a greater bonus (the magic holding them together is stronger around the priests). I don't see the Kings/princes effecting the great unwashed though, not particularly fluffy.

gdsora
05-01-2011, 14:45
. I don't see the Kings/princes effecting the great unwashed though, not particularly fluffy.

You kidding?
That is what the Rule: My Will be Done is for!

The book even states "though it is the magic of the Liche Priests that animate the army, It is also by the Will and Force of Personality of the Tomb King himself that they move and fight. Tomb King and Princes are powerful leaders able to instill their warriors with their own vigor."

Would be nice if that extended to WS buff to skeleton units say that have a Tomb Prince, or are within 6 inches of a King

Robotlord
05-01-2011, 15:42
Here's an idea for the give them better longevity camp. An opposite to the scaly skin save, the No Skin Save. +2 armour save ad/or +1ward.

WarmbloodedLizard
05-01-2011, 16:51
Here's an idea for the give them better longevity camp. An opposite to the scaly skin save, the No Skin Save. +2 armour save ad/or +1ward.

that's why I like my 6+ Ward :D against normal strength (S3/4), bones are pretty resilient, but against really strong hits, bones just shatter.


@dinobot:
I agree with spiney: skeleton stats should not be altered. especially not WS4.

hieroglyphs could be nice. But I would design it in such a way that they give very small bonuses: e.g. +1M, +1WS, swiftstride, +1AS vs. shooting, no dangerous terrain tests, flaming attacks, etc.

Caitsidhe
05-01-2011, 18:13
I, personally, don't think their stats will be altered at all. I suspect that their stats will remain exactly as listed in the back of the basic rulebook. The new books already out demonstrate that leaning. I expect they will do as some others here suggest, boost stats in the presence of certain other models, i.e. a certain range. I suspect the following changes:

1. The caps on certain core troops will increase or be eliminated altogether.
2. Prices will be reduced all over the place.
3. The ability to march will be gained in a certain range from characters (all sorts).
4. Stat boosts will be provided in a certain range to certain characters. It is likely such bonuses will stack. Thus, having a King, Lich Priest, and a Prince in range would all provide their little perk.

I cannot begin to guess about the magic.

dinobot
05-01-2011, 18:25
No, absolutely not, there is no way an undead skeleton should be better at fighting than an Empire halberdier, they're animated dead things with no will or memory of their past life. Just possibly I would accept them going up to WS3 with Tomb Guard being raised to WS4. However the reality is that skeleton stats have been largely the same since the dawn of warhammer, and I really can't see GW wanting to make TK skeletons different to VC ones, certainly not that much better

Actually skeletons and wights do remember stuff about their former lives, and to varying degrees that's why Grave Guard are ws 3 and skellies are ws 2. The degree to which they remember is dependant on how they were burried: wights were given pagan rituals, where VC as skeletons are raised from ancient battlefields and so have been given no ritual.

Now, TK skelletons were given extensive rituals by a very ritualistic and advanced culture, as opposed to the barbarians that the Wights come from. It is because of this that I think they should be more adapt at fighting than other undead minions, and certainly more so than the mass produced skeletons the VC have.

WarmbloodedLizard
05-01-2011, 18:44
well, they know how to use a bow :D

Charistoph
05-01-2011, 22:52
Actually skeletons and wights do remember stuff about their former lives, and to varying degrees that's why Grave Guard are ws 3 and skellies are ws 2. The degree to which they remember is dependant on how they were burried: wights were given pagan rituals, where VC as skeletons are raised from ancient battlefields and so have been given no ritual.

Now, TK skelletons were given extensive rituals by a very ritualistic and advanced culture, as opposed to the barbarians that the Wights come from. It is because of this that I think they should be more adapt at fighting than other undead minions, and certainly more so than the mass produced skeletons the VC have.


well, they know how to use a bow :D

Combine that with Khemri troops go to their deaths expecting to be risen, and do so out of loyalty to their lord, as oppossed to the Vampires and Necromancers dragging unwilling victims from their rest, their should be a quality difference between them now that their armies have been seperated.

Col. Tartleton
06-01-2011, 03:10
Why not give them living stats to represent their better magic? WS 3 BS3 and I3 and proper leadership wouldn't be overpowered. Maybe light armor as standard. Basically Empire Troopers with Undead. That would be perfectly reasonable.

I'd also like to see hints of other ancient cultures to make Nekhara a bit less direct Egyptian and more malevolent ancient civilization. A bit of Assyrian and Hittite or even Greek could go a long way. They aren't Khemet, they're Khemri. They could add other influences. I mean it doesn't look like Chaos Dwarves are coming back so a bit of Mesopotamian and Anatolian flair wouldn't step on any toes. The current look for Chaos Dwarves look like Norse Dwarves gone bad (which is better IMO) and those old themes could be incorporated.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Cult of the Golden Bull or something in one of the city states. I mean Undead Egyptians seems pretty... predictable. Egypt should be the major design element but there's more to it than that.

Charistoph
06-01-2011, 05:36
Why not give them living stats to represent their better magic? WS 3 BS3 and I3 and proper leadership wouldn't be overpowered. Maybe light armor as standard. Basically Empire Troopers with Undead. That would be perfectly reasonable.

BS 3 could be overpowered when you factor in their ability to not take modifiers to their shooting at all. If this was dropped, or even reserved for a special banner or sergeant, than it would be workable. Otherwise, they are currently priced for that right now, I think. That Unstable rule can do nasty wonders to drop a unit's worth.


I'd also like to see hints of other ancient cultures to make Nekhara a bit less direct Egyptian and more malevolent ancient civilization. A bit of Assyrian and Hittite or even Greek could go a long way. They aren't Khemet, they're Khemri. They could add other influences. I mean it doesn't look like Chaos Dwarves are coming back so a bit of Mesopotamian and Anatolian flair wouldn't step on any toes. The current look for Chaos Dwarves look like Norse Dwarves gone bad (which is better IMO) and those old themes could be incorporated.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Cult of the Golden Bull or something in one of the city states. I mean Undead Egyptians seems pretty... predictable. Egypt should be the major design element but there's more to it than that.

This isn't a bad modeling direction to include in the army, I think. Most of the ancient armies modeled themselves after Egypt because its effectiveness. Babylon had renowned archers as well. The Khemri region is roughly the equivalent of that the areas between them on our world (yes, VERY roughly, but still), so it would make sense.

smithers
06-01-2011, 10:36
that's why I like my 6+ Ward :D against normal strength (S3/4), bones are pretty resilient, but against really strong hits, bones just shatter.


@dinobot:
I agree with spiney: skeleton stats should not be altered. especially not WS4.

hieroglyphs could be nice. But I would design it in such a way that they give very small bonuses: e.g. +1M, +1WS, swiftstride, +1AS vs. shooting, no dangerous terrain tests, flaming attacks, etc.

I don't like the 6+ ward idea, because it overlaps with HW/shield parry ward, which is really the only reason to even consider passing on the bows. Please... no more changes that reduce diversity on the table! And yes, BS change would make Khemri archers overpowered, even on a banner. (Now a +1 WS/BS incantation, yeah I could see that, and it fits with my overall hopes for how the army is dealt with in the new book)

WarmbloodedLizard
06-01-2011, 10:44
I don't like the 6+ ward idea, because it overlaps with HW/shield parry ward, which is really the only reason to even consider passing on the bows. Please... no more changes that reduce diversity on the table!

it doesn't. it only works for S4 and lower.

theunwantedbeing
06-01-2011, 11:19
it doesn't. it only works for S4 and lower.

Most attacks are strength 4 or 3.
It's basically the same as parry without neeing a sheild.

A standard skeleton just needs to be a little bit cheaper (but not with a bow) to be more useful. It would be nice to see a leadership boost for TK skeletons though, to say...7. Not a massive impact (almost non existent) but it means they can more easily reform on their own and generally work better as an army than regular VC skeletons can.

DeathlessDraich
06-01-2011, 13:05
For those interested in more than just stats - Have a look at this ARMY Book:
http://www.warseer.com/sylass/TheNextEra/Khemet%20and%20the%20Pharaohnic%20legions.doc

Glyphs, sphinxes, mummies, a story about Settra and lots of other goodies!
Enjoy!

It's part of 16 (see below) armies meant to be played against each other but not against the present 15 Fantasy armies.

Kamenwati
06-01-2011, 13:13
As something different I would like to see to make Chariots viable is this.

Three wide for ranks. (Repeat I know but needed)
Expert Charioteers: Basically it works like the Bretonnian Lance Formation but only for the impact hits. So first three get impact hits and full attacks then any chariots on the sides get Impact Hits only. It makes them able to do hideous damage at the risk of having some ridiculous flanks. Plus even with the extra damage, it is still likely that whatever they hit will have more ranks and be stubborn. So you still have to carefully flank charge and even better combine charge them to ensure success.

I'd also like to see a banner that negates Steadfast for any enemy unit in contact with it. That's pure wish listing but it would be a good banner for our cavalry and chariots.

overlordofnobodies
06-01-2011, 13:14
I like the idea of a TK skeleton having WS 3 BS3 and I3. I really dont like the idea of just making them cheaper. That should be VC in my mind.

I just really what to make them skeleton different between the two armys.

The bearded one
06-01-2011, 13:15
it doesn't. it only works for S4 and lower.

? I'm confused? Parry only works for str4 and lower..? :confused:


Fundamental stats like the profile of humans and such tend to not be changed when a book changes, apart from less fundamental stats like initiative or an increase/decrease of leadership. Skeletons will most likely remain as strong as VC skeletons. What you need is a cost reduction because skeletons are just terrible for the points. Don't look at it like "great.. Gw the bussines just forced me to buy 40 more skeletons", rather look at it like "cool, now I have room for the new kingsized chariot that they released!"



I'd say chariot units should get ranks of 3 etc in the same manner as monstrous stuff.

Haravikk
06-01-2011, 15:28
I think the main change would just be to boost combat skeletons a bit, things like improved weapon skill would make the most sense, basically anything to distinguish Tomb King skeletons from Vampire Counts skeletons, since Tomb King armies are meant to be...well, armies! As opposed to hordes of reanimated bodies that could have been anyone in a past life.

Maybe Weapon Skill 3, and and a good Leadership, as it would greatly reduce the effect of crumbling.
Besides which, if they're going to be stuck slogging around with only magically aided marching, then fast-reforms should be easy, or possibly even free (since musicians' rallying ability is of no use to them). Fast reforms made a huge improvement for Dwarfs since they get loads out of their limited movement now.

I mean, if I were to remaster Tomb Kings, I'd probably see them being the undead equivalent of High Elves; mostly elite units, and strong magic. Compared to Vampire Counts being more heavy on the numbers and monsters.

WarmbloodedLizard
06-01-2011, 16:04
? I'm confused? Parry only works for str4 and lower..? :confused:


We we're talking about my "bone ward" that I suggested. (a 6+ ward vs. S4 and lower.) I would give this to all bone-creatures (incl. constructs) of VC/TK.

it doesn't overlap too much with the parry save. (and if it really does, just make it cumualtive with the parry save)

the parry save kicks in even against monster, characters, cavalry, Monstrous Inf., etc. while the bone ward only protects against attacks skeletons should be quite resilient aghainst (Low strength shooting, normal strength attacks). a guy with a GW will still just carve the bony guys up, so a parrysave is still useful.

Jericho
07-01-2011, 17:58
I think that's kinda silly and needlessly complicated.

I think having slightly cheaper troops and giving the characters similar abilities to Heralds would justify points costs. When led by a Prince/King, maybe give the unit +1WS. When led by a Priest, a 5+ regen save.

Constructs will almost surely change, as they suffer some of the worst criticism right now. Bone Giants getting equipment options as per the trial rules, yes please :D

Heiroglyphs are a very cool idea, I can see this working for banners only, where you can take multiples on a single unit up to their maximum allowance. Having Dwarf-like rules for limiting repetition would be a good thing.

Some cool ideas in this thread, hopefully that's an indication of things to come.

Lordsaradain
07-01-2011, 20:11
I think GW should stay true to the Egypt theme and not get too many new wacky units that have nothing to do with Ancient Egypt.

The army needs to be cheaper than it is now, I think it should essentially be a horde army with some elite elements, rather than the other way around.

Sphinx would be cool. :)

soultaker
07-01-2011, 23:13
If Tomb kings should be looked upon as an elite undead army, there is a fairly obvious solution, make wights the standard tomb king infantryman.
Id do the following in the core selection:

1. tomb guard (profile as now) unit size 20+ heavy armour, shields, option for flails, no great weapons, enough armies do that already and they don't fit the theme. remove killing blow, full command options

2. skeleton archers: skeleton profile, unit size 10+ no armour options, slings, javelins or bows(poison?), no command options, perhaps some kind of rule allowing them to evade combat (they'd be light missile infantry)

carrion and tomb swarms could get the dire wolf/bat swarm treatment core but not core.

special I think tomb kings should get a unique cavalry choice, take from the cataphract ideal?
Tomb cavalry: wight profile, skeletal steed, equipped with bow, flail, barding, heavy armour, no shield option (perhaps v. expensive lance option) full command options, unit size 10+ (< than this is pointless anyway), could be a beautiful plastic kit unlike the calamitous current models.

Ushabti: toughen up construct rule sure, perhaps give them a champion upgrade, with a greek fire style fire thrower ranged attack? Add some flavour (miracle statues should hold some oracle style surprises)

Beats me what you'd do with the the more esoteric elements of the tomb kings, but this way access to cheap low quality troops is essentially non existent.
Lore access, aside from their own necromantic lore, light and metal? sun worship and beating off the avaricious (final transmutation and stupidity seems very characterful) probably the fluffiest lores and most importantly contrasts heavily with vc. Point accordingly

smithers
08-01-2011, 01:54
OK there are a lot of good ideas in this thread.
As stated earlier, personally I don't like the idea of cheapening skellies too much and would rather see more magic synergy to make the army competitive. That doesn't at all mean that TK would play like HEs. IMO it is the most unique army in the game, regardless of whether it went in a horde or elite direction.

So here's a fun challenge for you Tomb Kingers:

If you wanted to make the army competitive without modifying base stats or cost, and without introducing units or special rules, what incantations or magic items would you propose? It's kind of a fun exercise.

I'll throw out the following:

Items:

Banner of the Ibex: The unit can march. 25 pts
Banner of the Cobra: When a charge is declared against this unit it may choose to either reform or "stand and shoot" if it is not already engaged in combat 25 pts.
Banner of the Mongoose: Fast cavalry only. The unit can flee when charged. 15 pts.
Banner of the Rhino: Heavy Cavalry Only. +1 Str when charging. Each model that charges into contact inflicts one impact hit.
Sword of the Pharaoh: Tomb Blade. Can only be equipped by a Tomb King. One unit of tomb guard, up to 30 models, may count as core. The bearer of the sword must be deployed with that unit. 50 pts.
Settra's Banner: Usable by chariots only. This unit can form ranks three models wide. In addition, on its turn during the Remaining Moves phase the unit benefits as if an incantation of Urgency had been cast on it at a power level of D6. 40 pts
Khalida's Abandoned Chariot: At the start of close combat, any unit in contact with the character's chariot takes 2d6 poisoned Str 2 hits. The chariot also benefits from a 4+ ward save. 40 pts.
Mirror of Shapesh: The character my reroll failed "Look out Sir!" checks. If he is within a unit he is entitled to a check even if there are less than five RnF models. If he is deployed alone he is always treated as within 4" of a similar unit. Any wounds redirected through passing a "Look out sir" check can be assigned to any model in the character's army. 10 pts. (nice Hierophant protection. Make it an enchanted item so a ward can also be taken. The flying heirophant returns!!! muhahah!)
Staff of the Vulture: When an enemy unit is destroyed completely, roll a D6. On a 3+ a single Carrion model is appears where the unit last stood. Carrion that join the battle in this way may join with other Carrion into units, but they do not count for victory points. 35 pts.



)

New Incantations:


Summoning of the Asp: Until the start of the player's next turn, targeted unit benefits from poisoned attacks.

Settra's Calling: Until the start of the player's next turn, targetted unit receives a 4+ regeneration save

Curse of Darkness: Targeted unit receives -2WS and -2BS until the end of the next turn. In addition, if the unit moves for any reason, it will move in a random direction as indicated by scatter dice a distance half its movement value.

Plague of Locusts (replace current missile) 24" range. 3D6 S2 hits

Winds of Nekriti: A High Liche Priest can use this incantation once per battle. Each enemy unit containing more than one model takes a toughness test. Any unit that fails takes one wound with no saves, which must be assigned to the unit champion if one is present. The Winds can alternatively be unleashed on a single unit or model, in which case each rank suffers these effects as if it were a separate unit, but the saves are made at -1.


Okay, I got a little carried away, but with some magic like this I can see fielding every unit type in a big battle, which was always my plan when I started collecting TK in 7th. A diverse army is just so much more impressive, unpredictable, flexible and fun than the opposite.

Tymell
08-01-2011, 02:58
I've had little first hand experience of Tomb Kings myself, but I'm definitely reading a lot of fun-sounding ideas in this thread.

I like the idea of distinguishing the skeletons more by making them better stat-wise than their vampire counts counterparts, considering they are more willing, and the magic that binds them in unlife is more long-term.

Lots of tasty new unit ideas too, some of which (a Roc as a larger flyer, some kind of sphynx construct) I've heard mentioned before. A bow-wielding bone giant sounds good too. I could well believe the return of mummies considering GW's emphasis on reviving (no pun intended) older things. Perhaps Liches could take on a role more similar to that of Haemonculi in the new Dark Eldar book.

Nice thoughts on new gear too, and I agree on those mentioning increased emphasis on curses.

Overall I'd like to see them gain more of an identity as a swifter, more elite form of the undead. Still not as fast and elite as some armies, but more so than vampire counts, a bit less horde-oriented. Anything furthering the Egyptian (or other similar ancient cultures that could be incorporated) theme gets my vote too.

Charistoph
08-01-2011, 04:51
The army needs to be cheaper than it is now, I think it should essentially be a horde army with some elite elements, rather than the other way around.

So like Vampire Counts, but cheaper, less powerful characters and "elite" options? Basically Undead Orcs?

Please, no.

During the stage of social development that the Khemri had before Nagash and the Vampires, their armies would have operated on smaller scale than due to lack of population. They would have had to be better at it, too, in order to fend of the frequent Greenskin attacks. Since the Liche Priests do not just raise troops where they are, but rather resuscitate established armies, they should have a more elite feel. Maybe not as extreme as Elves, but definitely more than Vampire fodder.


I've had little first hand experience of Tomb Kings myself, but I'm definitely reading a lot of fun-sounding ideas in this thread.

I like the idea of distinguishing the skeletons more by making them better stat-wise than their vampire counts counterparts, considering they are more willing, and the magic that binds them in unlife is more long-term.

Lots of tasty new unit ideas too, some of which (a Roc as a larger flyer, some kind of sphynx construct) I've heard mentioned before. A bow-wielding bone giant sounds good too. I could well believe the return of mummies considering GW's emphasis on reviving (no pun intended) older things. Perhaps Liches could take on a role more similar to that of Haemonculi in the new Dark Eldar book.

Nice thoughts on new gear too, and I agree on those mentioning increased emphasis on curses.

Overall I'd like to see them gain more of an identity as a swifter, more elite form of the undead. Still not as fast and elite as some armies, but more so than vampire counts, a bit less horde-oriented. Anything furthering the Egyptian (or other similar ancient cultures that could be incorporated) theme gets my vote too.

Agreed. Characters should be, stat-wise, weaker than Vampires, but have other nasty tricks waiting in their bandages, while their base troops will be more effective in close combat, while still having the arrow option. Their Special and Rare options also follow a different path than the Vampires, which the Egyptian influence definitely helps provide a far disparate character from the blood-suckers.

WarmbloodedLizard
08-01-2011, 07:34
@ smithers: I like the poison attacks invocation, not so much the rest of the list though. I don't think problems like raking up 3 wide or giving boni to TG should be solved with magic items. I still think special rules and equipment/option modifications are a much better way. (doesn't have to be stats.)

Steam_Giant
08-01-2011, 13:42
I'd also like to see hints of other ancient cultures to make Nekhara a bit less direct Egyptian and more malevolent ancient civilization.

I like this idea and would give GW a reason to make a "Uniforms and Heraldry of the Tomb kings" book, as they have done with Empire and Skaven.

BlackVomit
08-01-2011, 14:31
One thing that has been mentioned elsewhere and stuck with me was that if Chariots were giving the 'Lance formation' on the turn they charged. In later rounds of combat they fight normally.

theunwantedbeing
08-01-2011, 15:00
One thing that has been mentioned elsewhere and stuck with me was that if Chariots were giving the 'Lance formation' on the turn they charged. In later rounds of combat they fight normally.

Or something like bull charge?
+1 strength on the hits, or +1 hit per chariot behind the first.

TK chariots don't hit very hard.
D3 st4 impact hits is really rather pathetic.
They could do with being st5 really, that would solve a lot of problems.

Haravikk
08-01-2011, 23:17
Bull Charge could work really well for chariots; I was thinking of mentioning it for Ushabti so that they fought semi-similarly to the Bone Giant, but for chariots it makes a ton of sense.

For Ushabti it'd be interesting to see different types (based on their heads), but that's more for flavour than anything the army requires to function better, I'd also love a Bone Giant kit with head options as I don't like the current one much, considering it's meant to be built from all sorts of things it just looks like a regular giant that's dead.

For the army dynamic; I'd love to see the basic skeletons be a lot more resilient, more expensive as well mind you but not at all easy to kill, so even though the units would be small they'd be hard to shift, and even small resurrections could become extremely troublesome. Something like a ward save, or even a rule whereby each enemy killed can potentially resurrect a dead skeleton warrior (some nonsense to do with souls or something). They wouldn't be killing machines or anything, but really showing off the resilience that a dead army of skeletons could have.
This would give the Ushabti, Bone Giants, Chariots, and Cavalry a lot more room to do their damage. I mean, the skeletons are where it's at I think, they either need a bit more support or an upgrade, once that's sorted it's only minor tweaks (like the chariots) needed to make it competitive.

Ravening Wh0re
09-01-2011, 03:27
You could make all skeletons partially embalmed. Gives them a 5+ regen (not ward) so it's easily countered with flaming attack.
You wouldn't need to change stats and equipment.
A better regen could be given to Tomb Guard and Princes/Kings

Torpedo Vegas
09-01-2011, 04:11
You could make all skeletons partially embalmed. Gives them a 5+ regen (not ward) so it's easily countered with flaming attack.
You wouldn't need to change stats and equipment.
A better regen could be given to Tomb Guard and Princes/Kings

Your username is hilarious , I felt like I had to say that.
Also, that partially embalmed thing sounds neat.

BlackVomit
09-01-2011, 08:23
According to the Black Library books, depending on the gods they worship, they received different powers...

WarmbloodedLizard
09-01-2011, 15:46
You could make all skeletons partially embalmed. Gives them a 5+ regen (not ward) so it's easily countered with flaming attack.
You wouldn't need to change stats and equipment.
A better regen could be given to Tomb Guard and Princes/Kings

5+ is s bit strong. I'd say 6+ at max.

teddet
09-01-2011, 22:54
Okay -- for what it's worth, this is what I'd do:

BIG CHANGES:

Chariots become core always, ranks of 3.

Replace the liche high priest with a "Tomb Queen" (just change the fluff slightly and say that the men dealt with war, while the women ran the temples). Still need a queen/princess as heirophant.

Hero characters are tomb prince and tomb princesses (Liche priest-like).

Across the board, all the "skeleton" based units get +1 ws/bs and +1 toughness. This represents the fact that they were willingly embalmed, and I think it's enough to keep them at the same points level. (blessings of the asp will be dealt with later)

Add in a special unit called "Temple maidens". Init. 5, WS 4, two attacks, additional hand weapons. (and it lets GW make another plastic unit to sell ;D)

CHARACTERS:

If your general is a tomb king, then the (now slightly better) tomb guard become core. If your general is a tomb princess, the temple maidens become core.

Queens/Princess can take a ushabti/bone giant as a "mount" -- one profile b/c they're bound in it, but they get the armour save/toughness.

Kings can take chariots/horses

CORE:

Here's the big change -- no champions. Instead, for +25 points, you can add a liche priest to your unit. He has a bog standard stat line, but +1 wound. He also allows the unit to march. Finally, each liche priest must represent one of the gods of the khemrian pantheon -- Asp (unit gets blessings of the asp); Cobra (unit gets poisoned attacks; Hippo (devastating charge); Sun (6+ ward save); crocodile (+1 toughness); Jackal (can make a charge reaction)... I'd keep these pretty limited so you have to decide who gets a buff.

bowmen -- stay the same
shield/hw -- stay the same
spear/shield -- they have javelins
Chariots -- as above
Cav options -- I would like a bow/shield/spear option (but that's just b/c that's how I've converted mine)


Special:

Tomb Guard -- same (bigger unit limit)
Temple Maidens -- as above
Ushabti - option for liche champion, maybe 60 points, or better save for 65 points
Scorpions -- as they are now
Carrion -- as they are now

RARE:

Bone Giant: +1 weapon skill, and the options from that white dwarf article
Screaming Skull: same
Casket: just a rare unit, -1 leadership to everyone who can see it, has a magic missile spell that does 2d6 hits, then jumps to another unit nearby on a 4+

MAGIC:

I'd have them generate dice the same way they do now, but you have to buy the spells (maybe like necros? 1 free, then +15 for each), and each spell would have 2 levels...

If you cast movement on 1-3, then you can make a normal move or charge if the enemy is within your normal move. On a 4+, you can make an actual charge.

Shooting: 1-3, you can shoot, but -1 to hit, and catapult always scatters (again, not if you're the unit with blessings of the asp). 4+ normal shooting.

Attacks: 1-3, you make a single attack, 4+ you get your full attacks

Magic missile: 1-3: 1d6; 4+, 2d6 (or however you want it -- this could maybe go higher).

MAGIC ITEMS:

I'd want a 75+ point magic item that makes ushabti core (and maybe a dif't one to make scorpions core). Just to let you have variety, but force you to pay for it.

Ravening Wh0re
09-01-2011, 22:55
5+ is s bit strong. I'd say 6+ at max.

If you say so. One little fireball or flaming arrow/sword would nullify its regen for that phase. Also in combat you wouldn't be able to parry if you used it. It isn't that strong since you can't rely on it all the time.

You might also see a lot of skeletons on foot again.

@Torpedo Vegas - Thanks! :D

teddet
11-01-2011, 00:26
Oooh -- one other idea to add. Rather than a giant sphinx or other monster that would just be the same as what other armies have, what about a flying ship as a new rare?

It could use the float/hover rule (whatever that new rule is that doesn't let you move 20"), and maybe you could stick a unit on it to shoot with (or deliver around the battlefield). IMHO, it could be really neat looking while making TK a sort of "magitech" army, as opposed to the magic/monster based VC.

WarmbloodedLizard
11-01-2011, 08:27
changes

it doesn't look like you thought about balance much.

WS4 core TG

poison arrows/+1T for 25 points, combined with WS3/BS3, undead (that's just not an 8 point unit)

multiple caskets that give -1Ld

and they would lose some originality with your spells solution.

@Ravening whore:

well in 90% of cases a 5+ regen save is just a 5+ ward save. it's not like there are that many units with flaming attacks running around. (regeneration also doesn't really fit skellies)

blackstork
11-01-2011, 09:34
Hmm, and what will you say about a Scorpion Chariot?

Spiney Norman
11-01-2011, 10:03
You kidding?
That is what the Rule: My Will be Done is for!

The book even states "though it is the magic of the Liche Priests that animate the army, It is also by the Will and Force of Personality of the Tomb King himself that they move and fight. Tomb King and Princes are powerful leaders able to instill their warriors with their own vigor."

Would be nice if that extended to WS buff to skeleton units say that have a Tomb Prince, or are within 6 inches of a King

Yes, and we already have my will be done, I was actually talking about increasing the resilience of skeletons, I have no desire to see their combat ability boosted as I se no justification for it.

Wish listing is one thing, but suggesting that every king and prince get a helm of commandment as standard would make TK the cheesiest army since daemons were unleashed on 7th Ed.

Spiney Norman
11-01-2011, 10:24
Replace the liche high priest with a "Tomb Queen" (just change the fluff slightly and say that the men dealt with war, while the women ran the temples). Still need a queen/princess as heirophant.

Its hardly a “slight” change in the fluff, it severely affects both our current special characters (Settra, a man who also functions as a priest, and Khalida a woman who functions as a war leader). Not to mention completely buggering up the Nagash books. It also removes the TK further from real world Egypt, which is not a good thing IMHO.

I would like the fluff to be developed, not totally re-written, some of like a little continuity in our wargame.

Besides, in a large game you may well want a lot of priests, are you really going to have an army with 4 or more queens in?

I also don’t like the idea of temple maidens, the idea that there is a sorority of kick-ass undead women hanging around in the Nehekharan temples that can beat the crap out of most mortal soldiers without problem doesn’t quite sit right with me thematically.



Here's the big change -- no champions. Instead, for +25 points, you can add a liche priest to your unit. He has a bog standard stat line, but +1 wound. He also allows the unit to march. Finally, each liche priest must represent one of the gods of the khemrian pantheon -- Asp (unit gets blessings of the asp); Cobra (unit gets poisoned attacks; Hippo (devastating charge); Sun (6+ ward save); crocodile (+1 toughness); Jackal (can make a charge reaction)... I'd keep these pretty limited so you have to decide who gets a buff.

I’ve been suggesting this for years, although 25pts is way too cheap for an extra incantation (just as over 100pts is too much for one). 50pts for a priest upgrade for a skeleton unit would be fine, make his incant operate at level D6, or even D3. It would also reduce the pressure on TK character slots. There would have to be some balancing mechanism though (like only one unit of each type in the army could field a priest upgrade), I can’t see every unit on the table being host to a priest being a particularly popular move

teddet
11-01-2011, 13:33
Spiney -- you could be totally right on the points levels -- I think 8 points for a ws3 t4 unit isn't that crazy -- ghouls get that with 2 attacks and poison. I would only give them the BS upgrade if you also took away the blessings of the asp rule.

Also, I think that +50 pts for a priest/champ upgrade isn't too terrible either (or maybe a dif't cost based on what unit you were adding a priest to?). And I was trying to suggest a mechanism where the amount of priests were limited -- also, if I was really writing it, i wouldn't give the champriests an incantation -- just a bonus to the unit (march + something else).

As for tomb queens, I think it's a fun fluff change, and doesn't really mess with Settra or Khalida -- Settra is now someone who fulfills both roles, and so is Khalida (from the other side). I was mainly thinking that it means that GW could design a whole new line of princesses that look somewhat like Khalida, but still sell the priests as unit champs. ;D

I think that having more skilled and tougher skeleton units IS fluffy for tomb kings -- they were "volunteer" soldiers, and were prepped for it. And I think Tomb Maidens are fluffy -- they let you get another "mummy-looking" unit in, but aren't the same as the rest of the army (you could also give them just 1 attack, 2 hw, ASF and poison -- like mini-khalidas).

Perhaps the solution on characters making units core is that they would make 1 unit core (i.e. -- Tomb King gets 1 unit of Tomb Guard as core, Tomb Queen gets 1 unit of Tomb Maidens). And I should have added it, but I meant to have caskets as 0-1 (or some limitation in games below 3000).

jimbo2
12-01-2011, 00:02
Here's the big change -- no champions. Instead, for +25 points, you can add a liche priest to your unit. He has a bog standard stat line, but +1 wound. He also allows the unit to march. Finally, each liche priest must represent one of the gods of the khemrian pantheon -- Asp (unit gets blessings of the asp); Cobra (unit gets poisoned attacks; Hippo (devastating charge); Sun (6+ ward save); crocodile (+1 toughness); Jackal (can make a charge reaction)... I'd keep these pretty limited so you have to decide who gets a buff.


This wouldn't work because you are paying a flat points cost for a unit-wide upgrade regardless of how large or small that unit is. A unit of 40 archers should clearly pay more for the Blessings of the Asp ability than a unit of 20 if it is part of an optional upgrade. Having only one or two upgrade choices that are costed per member of the unit would be a better option in terms of avoiding cookie cutter army lists as far as core choices are concerned.

teddet
12-01-2011, 16:38
Jimbo2 -- you're probably right. Then what about 15pts for the priest upgrade, plus 1 pt for every model in the unit? Then it scales, and stays in the same range as before.

iNKayGee
12-01-2011, 23:50
I think itd be neat to somehow combine Skellies with tomb swarms. IDK how really, but the thought of little beetles crawling on and around a unit of walking dead would look kinda cool. Maybe D3 poisoned attacks per rank?

w3rm
13-01-2011, 01:50
I want mummies!

M-4 ws- 4 str-5 t-5 w-3 a-2 i-2 ld 6- 50 points

Flails
Emblamed
Curse- each time one is killed the closest enemy unit within 6" suffers a wound with no armour saves allowed
Bones of the Ancients- All Tomb King units get a 5+ Save unless attacked by a str that is higher then thier toughness. This save is ignored by attacks that ignore armour saves. This save may be used in conjunction with any other save.

ftayl5
13-01-2011, 03:26
Why flails?

Personally I just want our current units to all be more usable. Give heavy horsemen WS 3 and/or make them cheaper.
Make tomb swarms not 0-1 would be nice
Remove unit caps
Give Light cav the ability to flee from the charge and then auto rally.
Give Carrion... something that makes them better.
And make Chariots be crewed by tomb guard, just without Tomb Blades.
Making the Bone Giant T6 would be good too, but probably won't happen.

As for new units...
Maybe skirmishing skeletons with bows or javelins or something.
And make our units immune to the effects of Khemrian sinking sand.

Charistoph
13-01-2011, 05:50
I want mummies!

M-4 ws- 4 str-5 t-5 w-3 a-2 i-2 ld 6- 50 points

Flails
Emblamed
Curse- each time one is killed the closest enemy unit within 6" suffers a wound with no armour saves allowed
Bones of the Ancients- All Tomb King units get a 5+ Save unless attacked by a str that is higher then thier toughness. This save is ignored by attacks that ignore armour saves. This save may be used in conjunction with any other save.

You forgot unit type...

Personally, I always thought that a Cursed Mummy unit would be more interesting.

M-4 . WS-3 . BS-2 . S-3 . T-4 . W-1 . A-2 . I-2 . Ld-7
Slot: Rare
Unit Type: Infantry
Weapons: Cursed Wrappings
Special Rules: Undead, Skirmisher, Regeneration, Flammable
Cursed Wrappings: A Cursed Mummy is always looking for those to pass the curse on to. Cursed Wrappings provide Killing Blow, and model defeated by Killing Blow will be added to the unit as the Curse grows!

teddet
13-01-2011, 16:43
The old white dwarf list for zombie pirates had "bloated corpses" that blew up (small template) when they lost their last wound. Maybe a cursed mummy could work similarly -- wanders around the field, and if you kill it, the unit takes 2d6 s3 hits (or a template's worth).

Haravikk
13-01-2011, 23:31
I think a curse seems more damning than directly damaging.

I just get the picture of the Mummy films in my head; something like a mummy character regaining wounds depending on how many models it kills, potentially making it unstoppable if you can't do enough damage in return?

Malorian
14-01-2011, 00:24
The old white dwarf list for zombie pirates had "bloated corpses" that blew up (small template) when they lost their last wound. Maybe a cursed mummy could work similarly -- wanders around the field, and if you kill it, the unit takes 2d6 s3 hits (or a template's worth).

Please no... those things were more annoying and time consuming than tactically useful...

teddet
14-01-2011, 17:18
I think they could work well with a small update to the current rule environment - give them the small template, but make anything touched by the template get hit. Voila, lots of fun with exploding mummies :angel: