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OldMan
03-01-2011, 20:34
Why not? Its a cool army, with new book far away, yet very far from perfect right now.

I would change how Silver Helms work. I would make them with shields for free, and barding as upgrade, so they would be MV9 all time. I would make them core again. Around 18pts naked?

archers 10 pts.

Dragons a lot more cost-effective.

Lion-chariot stubborn.

High Magic should be more powefull. It still should cling to buff/balanced aproach, yet be more effective. Also it should be more powerfull fluwise - ie spells that manipulate time&space, fate&probability ("fortune is ficle" back - at least as a name) that interfere with most basic powers. Stronger version of flames of feniks - starting at S5. Fury of khaine scalable similar to basic fire spell.

New spearelf.
New units:
- stone thrower - similar to RBT in design, possibly in one box. For anti-horde deprtament
- return of queen's handmaidens ( it think they had rules at a time) - female elfs are cool and it will be nice to have them in "good" version, there is never too much elite infatry in HE, there is some nice fluff about deamons murdering the everqueen. Averlorn ( the of everqueen) is pretty much Athel Loren on Ulthuan, so they can have wood elf feel.
- brazier of holy flame - a big firebrough to battle andd escorted by fenix guard. It could do pretty much anything - buffing troops, killing deamon/undead

papabearshane
03-01-2011, 20:40
Ear Trimming is all the elfs need. Nothing but food for my Orcs

OldMan
03-01-2011, 20:42
I never said there is anything wrong with them. Nor that there have to be for a wishlisting thread to be opened.

Tae
03-01-2011, 21:40
- Remove Teclis
- Remove ASF

That's pretty much my HE wishlist right now.

OldMan
03-01-2011, 21:47
Teclis is understandable.
but why ASF? I thought in 8th it is no longer a problem, and it gives those soft, expensive and not so cost-efficient units a chance to survive the battle - simply by killing people faster than they kill them.

Korraz
03-01-2011, 22:06
It became a problem in 8th.

Looking at your wishes...you essentially want High Elves with some Dark Elf units? Plus a Stone Thrower to deal with one of the weaknesses of the army?

Remove ASF (and Hatred of the DE) and give them something else to underline the "elite army" business.

Jind_Singh
03-01-2011, 22:07
New plastic spearmen/archer models please! Maybe a new elite unit - like those mentioned above, handmaidens.

Silver Helms need lots of TLC, maybe even a re-do for model, seeing them as core would be nice as you might even see some of them on the field of battle!

I don't think they need any new warmachine as such, they already do well with their bows, bolt throwers, and high strength combat units - anyone every been on the wrong end of a White Lions axe? IT bloody hurts!

Tae
03-01-2011, 22:08
Teclis is understandable.
but why ASF? I thought in 8th it is no longer a problem, and it gives those soft, expensive and not so cost-efficient units a chance to survive the battle - simply by killing people faster than they kill them.

Going first. not a problem.

Getting re-rolls to hit against virtually everyone, not a problem.

Going first and getting re-rolls to hit against everyone except some characters whilst wielding a great weapon = FUBAR

Leogun_91
03-01-2011, 22:36
I would like each kingdom to have a unit of it's own, most do but not all.

I would like:
Maindenguard of Averlorn, they used to exist and work, they should still be able to work.

Merwyrms of Cothique, merwyrms used to exist in the old Storm of chaos list and Cothique is famed for all the seamonsters that hang around there so why not give Cothique merwyrms (it also makes use of the sea creature rule).

X of Yvresse, Yvresse deserves a unit too but I don't know what it should be.

I would like to make an army of Cothique but without any distinguishing units it just doesn't feel as fun.

OldMan
03-01-2011, 22:45
Looking at your wishes...you essentially want High Elves with some Dark Elf units? Plus a Stone Thrower to deal with one of the weaknesses of the army?
.

Well, with introduction of the lion chariot the first step has been made. DE have black guard, who are pretty much swormasters and with stubborn for less point ( thank you hag greaf banner), and hydras are actually better than the dragons (for the points).

But seriously, at the moment everyone have some kind of weird buff/debuff unit( warshrine, engine of gods, blood cauldron, war altar, screamiong bell&plague furnace, even anvil and casket of souls could get into that category even if hardly). So Why not brazier for pheonix guard?
As for queens handmaidens - what not to like in good female elfs? They don't need to be half-naked-crazied chiks, who throw hunreds of low S poisoned attacks on the enemy. As i sad i see them rather as a middle ground between waywathers and war dancers. Mayby with ambush rule.
And stone thrower. Is it really so difficult to construct a small catapult on the basis of RBT? And it is not to cover their main weakness. It is to cover probably the most popular and effective tactics in 8th edition - spamming huge unbreakable blocks.

bluemage
03-01-2011, 23:00
Hmmm wishlisting for High Elves.

Plastic Great Eagle and Shadow Warriors- I'd like everything to be plastic.
Remove Teclis, or make him an overcosted character that won't be taken.
Ditch ASF, it was a lazy way to make High Elves special.
Bring back Maidenguard
White Lions to go back to striking last and their weapons do d3 wounds again.
Also something to represent the other regions.
Make core a bit more interesting than it currently is.

TwoKingMick
04-01-2011, 00:06
I would be happy with new plastic Silver Helms, new plastic spearmen (like the test piece they had at GD) and plastic eagles.

Torpedo Vegas
04-01-2011, 00:40
High Elf wishlist:
Remove ASF on great weapons
Remove re-rolls if higher initiative (ties in with ASL)
Cheaper Calv options

Trains_Get_Robbed
04-01-2011, 01:56
H.E Wishlist:

Plastic G.E and S.W as someone mentioned. With comproable rules, you never see S.W because they suck.

Everything dropped in points and a reworking of ASF.

Silverhelms core. Archers gain K.B at short range (Ilithmar tipped arrows).

Madienguard brought back, and put into rare section, rewored rules.

With reworked ASF, something that lets them use their I to their advantage. Every army has 'their' trick/chesse, and H.E really don't have anything once you drop the ASF rule.

A super stat boost or points drop on Dragons, and as someone else brought up, the introductoin of Wyrms.

Don't introduce "a brazier" to H.E, its very un-high elf like, same as Stone Thorwer, though I would love to see the RBT increase in shots like 2 D6 +2 S4. . ., shots a turn like now for 100 or 150 points., and perahps the addition of a monster, like stated above.


PS. AS A HEADS UP, ITS A WISHLIST NOT A "OH ASF AND TECLIS IS BROKEN-LIST." You wouldn't see people complaining about how good T.K's Ubshaupti are in a thread of similar idea, so why comment: "ASF removed," and thats it? Its quite lame, at least provide reaosn or some other things that they should add or take away

tmarichards
04-01-2011, 03:31
ASF and High Elves are really not as broken as everyone likes to make them out to be...

Some internal balance would be a nice addition for them, to make the army competative outside of a few builds and allow for some flexibility.

Silver Helms moving back to core could be interesting, there's still no reason to take them in 8th edition.

Dragon Princes need a 1+ armour save to be competative really, and could do with going up to S4 basic like Cold One Knights.

Archers don't need any rules buffs, just a pts decrease.

Spell_of_Destruction
04-01-2011, 03:36
I agree with most of your suggestions Oldman.

I think they need a bit of a shooting buff - archers are still too expensive and the RBT is not worth the points. They should have a fair balance between shooting and CC.

As Trains_Get_Robbed pointed out, the problematic question is how do you make HE viable in the current environment without ASF?

Yeah the way it works is kind of lame, but their elite infantry (particularly SMs) need to be ludicriously destructive - how else can you justify 15pts for a T3 5+ save model? Most armies have more than enough shooting to deal with them.

Make Teclis uber buff with a corresponding points value so that you can't take him in normal sized competitive games.

AlexHolker
04-01-2011, 04:03
New plastic spearmen/archer models please! Maybe a new elite unit - like those mentioned above, handmaidens.
These are the two I'd like to see. Replacements for the monkey fist core troops and women getting some single gender plastic kits for a change.

Stuffburger
04-01-2011, 04:14
I'd like to see teclis smacked with the nerf bat, the book of hoeth removed or toned down- maybe 50 points and double 5 or 6 is IF instead of everything?

Like all armies I want their cavalry to be usable again- make helms core, cheaper and shields included, and make reavers come with bows or reduce the base price by three points. I also thought it would be cool and fluffy if they could fire their bows while charging.

Everything else seems where it should be- infantry frail but hitty and disciplined, shooting precise but not all that powerful, strong magic.

BigbyWolf
04-01-2011, 09:14
Cheaper Calv options

Cheaper what now? :shifty:

Allow Nobles to ride Griffons, or perhaps a cheaper version of one. Makes use of all the IoB ones kicking around.

Hitsugaya Toushiro
04-01-2011, 09:56
Swordmasters with WS 6+ for Dodge (like Gutter runners)

the Arrows cutting rule for 6th codex was cool...but arrows aren't a real problem today in 8th for SM...

they need to be useful and expecially be good as white lions....today white lions are too better than SM

Colonel_kex
04-01-2011, 11:25
I agree with Hitsugaya, a Dodge save for the SM would be characterfull while making them more elite.

That and dropping the rerolls from ASF on GW's. Not take it away by any means, just get rid of the rerolls

Chiungalla
04-01-2011, 12:03
My personal wishlist:
- No more ASF, but ignoring the ASL of great weapons (Ithilmar weapons?).

- Lords and heroes a little bit cheaper

- Archers one point cheaper
- Spear elves a point cheaper
- Silver Helms again core (and I like the idea for shields without upgrade and barding as upgrade) and a bit cheaper.

- Swordmasters maybe skirmishers and a fancy special rule to make them a good bodyguard for mages. Maybe rank up in close combat with wizards in the second rank?
- Lion chariots stubborn
- Shadow Warriors with armor piercing arrows BS 5 and extra handweapon

- Dragon riders as rare choice on dragon hatchlings. Dragon princes armor and stat line as flying monstrous cavalry or flying monstrous beast. They don't need a incredible statline for the mounts, I will just love the sight of units of dragons in my high elf army.

Algovil
04-01-2011, 12:48
My personal wishlist:
- No more ASF, but ignoring the ASL of great weapons (Ithilmar weapons?).

- Lords and heroes a little bit cheaper

- Archers one point cheaper
- Spear elves a point cheaper
- Silver Helms again core (and I like the idea for shields without upgrade and barding as upgrade) and a bit cheaper.

- Swordmasters maybe skirmishers and a fancy special rule to make them a good bodyguard for mages. Maybe rank up in close combat with wizards in the second rank?
- Lion chariots stubborn
- Shadow Warriors with armor piercing arrows BS 5 and extra handweapon

- Dragon riders as rare choice on dragon hatchlings. Dragon princes armor and stat line as flying monstrous cavalry or flying monstrous beast. They don't need a incredible statline for the mounts, I will just love the sight of units of dragons in my high elf army.

I agree that something has to be made about GW elves ASF, either striking in initiative order, or striking last with rerolls, or striking first, but without rerolls. To me, striking in initiative order but with rerolls could work, little overpowered with their high initiative, but not OP vs combatcharacters like now.

Decrease archers 1 point would be nice. Spearmen I do not know, they are OK as they are I guess, compared to other armies they are not that expensive statswise with ASF and extra rank. With the special choices of HE it is fair that core is not the best. HE are elite, they should always be outnumbered IMO.

Silver Helms for core would work well i believe, if pointdecrese, then just slight, otherwise they would be far to good compared to for example empire knights. Do you think reavers are OK or should they be decreased in points?

Swordmasters - No
Lion Chariot - Yes
Shadow Warriors - Sound overly complicated, but something has to change

I would like to see:

Tone down magic, slightly, make High magic worth taking, with buffs and protection spells, keep drain magic.
Rework ASF with GW.
Rework the units that are not worth taking, not pointdecrease all over, this is HE, not skaven... please no extra rules for each and every unit, small changes could do it !
Make shooting stronger, decreasing archers to 10 points would maybe be enough! Or just for fun: give them ability to fire twice with -1 to hit for both shots, do not know if points should change!
RBT I do not know, seems OK to me, volley fire, 6 s4 -2as shots looks great, never played it though, what is the problem with RBT??

Odin
04-01-2011, 12:54
The absolute first thing I would do with High Elves is get fid of the SoA rule. It was designed to fix problems with 7th edition which no longer exist in 8th, and it makes no sense.

Obviously they'd need a new army-wide rule, not sure what that would be. Possibly something to do with pride/arrogance.

I definitely agree with Silver Helms becoming Core again. Moving them to special was another part of the 7th edition "papering over the cracks" fix to prevent all HE armies being all-cavalry, but now that core infantry are worth taking it's not an issue.

Chiungalla
04-01-2011, 13:03
Spearmen I do not know, they are OK as they are I guess, compared to other armies they are not that expensive statswise with ASF and extra rank. With the special choices of HE it is fair that core is not the best. HE are elite, they should always be outnumbered IMO.

Actually I dropped ASF in my wishlist.
With the changes from 8th edition high initiative is enough, ASF isn't needed any more. That is as long as the infantry with great weapons strikes in initiative order.


Do you think reavers are OK or should they be decreased in points?

I would say 1 point less per model, and 1 or 2 points less for the bows.

Maelstorm
04-01-2011, 15:41
The problem with RBT is that they are 100pts, which is not worth it. OnG gets their bolts for 35 pts, and the only difference then is that they have bs3 and donīt get to volley. The volley is sweet, but itīs not worth those 65 pts extra and there are lots, lots, lots of better choiches for those 100 pts.
Also, with the warmachine rules in 8th, it dies from everything.

If it where 50-75 pts, many more would take it. Rework that, and also:
Nerf BoH
Help those poor shadow warriors.
Silver helms need something that distuingish them from DP, as now there is no reason to take SH
A HE version of warhawk riders, pegasus knights would be nice. Preferably young dragons, like someone said, or just eagles here as well.

druchii7
04-01-2011, 15:52
my WL:

change ASF for something different (-1 to be hit on CC)
additional HW and light armour for archers with no point increase.
nastier ellirions (S4? better WS/BS?)
drop elites to 14 points
harder shadow warriors.
do something with RBT (point drop/power bost)
change great eagles so that they are played as powerful and sacred beings, not as worothless wolf riders
make lion charriot a lot more expensive an RARE slot, but mend their poor resilience (T5, 5W,3+ AS)
LSG getting scout, vanguard or any other rule like that
drop caledor armour overpower

Pulstar
04-01-2011, 16:05
Silver helms as a core choice would be nice. RBT @ 75 points would be nice.

Other then that the army list is just about right. (I do miss my old high elf lord on a Pegasus model)

I won't go into the whole SoA with GW and the whole reroll thing. If you let GW HE get into combat vs your good units you are going to be into trouble. But the die when you shoot them, and you can tar pit them large blocks of cheap troops.

Odin
04-01-2011, 16:15
change great eagles so that they are played as powerful and sacred beings, not as worothless wolf riders


I agree with this, as a Wood Elf player. They're very useful as sacrificial units, but it's just wrong. They need +1A and +1I at least, an increase in points and perhaps hit-and-run.

OldMan
04-01-2011, 17:46
My personal wishlist:
- No more ASF, but ignoring the ASL of great weapons (Ithilmar weapons?).

- Lords and heroes a little bit cheaper
- Archers one point cheaper archers
- Spear elves a point cheaper

Cheap and HE don't go in pair. Though archers are indeed overpriced.

- Silver Helms again core (and I like the idea for shields without upgrade and barding as upgrade) and a bit cheaper.

thanks :D

- Swordmasters maybe skirmishers and a fancy special rule to make them a good bodyguard for mages. Maybe rank up in close combat with wizards in the second rank?

It desn't fit the feel of sword-master, unless You want them to turn them into Warhammer witchers (who would fit WE much more anyway)

- Lion chariots stubborn
- Shadow Warriors with armor piercing arrows BS 5 and extra handweapon

BS 5 for SW is enough IMHO. I think they would be used if not the lack of it.

- Dragon riders as rare choice on dragon hatchlings. Dragon princes armor and stat line as flying monstrous cavalry or flying monstrous beast. They don't need a incredible statline for the mounts, I will just love the sight of units of dragons in my high elf army.

Great idea, but it would require retcon/progresion of timeline. Dragons are dwidling too, and dragon raiders belong to the glorious past.



.
I agree with this, as a Wood Elf player. They're very useful as sacrificial units, but it's just wrong. They need +1A and +1I at least, an increase in points and perhaps hit-and-run.

Excellent idea.

Can any of the longberds tell what were the old rules for maidenguard? Mayby not even the exact rules, but what the unit was supposed to do in theory?

Algovil
04-01-2011, 18:30
my WL:

change ASF for something different (-1 to be hit on CC)
additional HW and light armour for archers with no point increase.
nastier ellirions (S4? better WS/BS?)
drop elites to 14 points
harder shadow warriors.
do something with RBT (point drop/power bost)
change great eagles so that they are played as powerful and sacred beings, not as worothless wolf riders
make lion charriot a lot more expensive an RARE slot, but mend their poor resilience (T5, 5W,3+ AS)
LSG getting scout, vanguard or any other rule like that
drop caledor armour overpower

-1 to hit is a good idea, but I fear it wont help against all attacks coming there way, I for one actually like SoA, but it gets a little bit to much with great weapon and rerolls to hit at the same time, nerf something for GW and it is just fine!

Archers need to be better at shooting, not a standard closecombat troop with weak bows. 2 shots at -1 to hit each, overpowered?

Ellirions might need a buff I agree but increasing strength or toughness for elves doesn't feel right, a special rule, shot and flee, break for combat, or something would be nice IMHO.

Elites are just fine :)

Agree!

Powerboost!

Yes, please!

This would be great! HE could use a few more rares, got quite a few special choices as of now. A tough lion chariot, could be really interesting.

LSG are very nice troops in my opinion, maybe buff their shooting the same way as archers. Or a crazy idea just give them better protection vs shooting, using special formation for shooting, taking cover behind shields or something, giving them a ward save vs shooting S4 or less making them a defensive choice.

Why is Caledor Armour OP? It is one of a kind, and quite situational. Is there a combo I am missing?

Xyon
04-01-2011, 18:53
For archers, remove long range penalty, gain always wound T4, T5, and T6 on a 4+ with shooting, and increase the volly so the whole unit may shoot.

For reavers, make them 18 pts with spear and bow, lose all shooting penalties, gain +1 to wound with shooting.

for RBT, remove range penalty, increase the single bolt to a strength 7 d6 wound (with a +1 to hit) instead of strength 6 d3 wound. Change the volly so that it wounds t1-t3 on a 2+ t4-t6 on a 3+ and t7-t10 on a 4+, keep the armor piercing -2, then they'd be worth the 100 pts, maybe a little more, this way they're not cheap so you cant spam them, but they should be worth the points. I'd probably also increase their save, since the war machine now uses the crew as wounds, the machine itself could be used to represent armor save added in addition to their light armor, so maybe... 3+ save?

UberBeast
04-01-2011, 19:41
They simply have to get rid of ASF.

After that I would say, redo the spearmen and archers, give the spearmen an option for heavy armor, add new great eagles.

theunwantedbeing
04-01-2011, 20:30
Intrigue at the Court
:angel:


Cue loud whiney noise

Oberon
04-01-2011, 20:43
Are the people talking about the ASF actually HE players or not? I think it is a great rule that helps our often weaker troops to have an impact before dying and make them feel like _elite_ troops that they are. After all, they cost 9-15pts each. Sure, getting re-rolls with GW is a bit too much but getting rid of ASF completely is IMO a bit of overreacting.

@Xyon: longbows that always wound on 4+ or better, without long range penalties, are you serious? O_o

Stubborn, a bit more survivable lion chariot and better shadow warriors would be great though. Oh, and longbows for LSG!

I checked the old army book, fortune is fickle&drain magic sure were sick back then. But then again, the units were laughably bad (A1 princes, only sometimes stubborn lions, rare lions&phoenix guard, no ASF anywhere, A1 swordmasters, no ward for p-guard, and so on...), so I'm not too keen to go back. Just toning down the asf+gw-ruling (just fix the FAQ answer, actually), and boost a bit those few units that do not see the table that often.

Chiungalla
04-01-2011, 21:03
Are the people talking about the ASF actually HE players or not? I think it is a great rule that helps our often weaker troops to have an impact before dying and make them feel like _elite_ troops that they are. After all, they cost 9-15pts each. Sure, getting re-rolls with GW is a bit too much but getting rid of ASF completely is IMO a bit of overreacting.

I'am a high elf player, and I think it would be a good idea to drop ASF from the next army book.

There is no need for it any more. In 7th edition we needed ASF to have a chance against charging foes. But since chargers don't go first any more in 8th and since there is the new step up rule, that's not the case any more.

ASF was a workaround for a problem that was perfectly solved with 8th edition. With our high initiative we will go first anyway, or at least strike at the same time as our opponents. Only on rare occasions we will go last.

The only real problem that will come up when you drop ASF would be great weapons. But you can go by a army wide special rule to avoid this. Strike in initiative order.

And even if you don't want the special rule to be army wide, the swordmasters should have it. Sad for characters and white lions then, but with a decent point decrease white lions will still be good.

On another more general point which is related to the above
A major issue with the army design of the high elves is the following:
Fluffwise and in the feeling of the players they should be the ultra elite army.

They should have few models that are very strong.

But on the other hand there should be no models with toughness 4, few models with strength 4, only a decent amount of armor since we all figure high elves as frail and not that tough.

But the problem is, strength and toughness are maybe the most important stats. And armor is very important as well, especially on toughness 3 models.

And there is not much room to increase the other statlines. Maybe Ld 9 in general and initiative 6 or something like that.

So high elves need very strong special rules that justify there elite point cost and feeling.

ASF does a good job for that right now, but it gets a lot of flak and creates a lot of issues especially for weaker close combat specialist armies.

So what we really need is a special rule that justifies the huge price tags on our troops, despite there fragility. Any ideas?

Xyon
04-01-2011, 21:21
Are the people talking about the ASF actually HE players or not? I think it is a great rule that helps our often weaker troops to have an impact before dying and make them feel like _elite_ troops that they are. After all, they cost 9-15pts each. Sure, getting re-rolls with GW is a bit too much but getting rid of ASF completely is IMO a bit of overreacting.

@Xyon: longbows that always wound on 4+ or better, without long range penalties, are you serious? O_o

Stubborn, a bit more survivable lion chariot and better shadow warriors would be great though. Oh, and longbows for LSG!

I checked the old army book, fortune is fickle&drain magic sure were sick back then. But then again, the units were laughably bad (A1 princes, only sometimes stubborn lions, rare lions&phoenix guard, no ASF anywhere, A1 swordmasters, no ward for p-guard, and so on...), so I'm not too keen to go back. Just toning down the asf+gw-ruling (just fix the FAQ answer, actually), and boost a bit those few units that do not see the table that often.

Yes, I am. Except I said for anything up to T6, T7 and higher its normal to wound, so its not too strong against warmachines. This is mainly inspired by the dark eldar now having a ton of poisoned weapons, we'll be able to inflict more wounds with shooting, but there will be no armor penitration from strength or ap so its not too overpowering. I dont think our archers should be cheap, but I think they should effective for their points.


I'am a high elf player, and I think it would be a good idea to drop ASF from the next army book.

There is no need for it any more. In 7th edition we needed ASF to have a chance against charging foes. But since chargers don't go first any more in 8th and since there is the new step up rule, that's not the case any more.

ASF was a workaround for a problem that was perfectly solved with 8th edition. With our high initiative we will go first anyway, or at least strike at the same time as our opponents. Only on rare occasions we will go last.

The only real problem that will come up when you drop ASF would be great weapons. But you can go by a army wide special rule to avoid this. Strike in initiative order.

And even if you don't want the special rule to be army wide, the swordmasters should have it. Sad for characters and white lions then, but with a decent point decrease white lions will still be good.

On another more general point which is related to the above
A major issue with the army design of the high elves is the following:
Fluffwise and in the feeling of the players they should be the ultra elite army.

They should have few models that are very strong.

But on the other hand there should be no models with toughness 4, few models with strength 4, only a decent amount of armor since we all figure high elves as frail and not that tough.

But the problem is, strength and toughness are maybe the most important stats. And armor is very important as well, especially on toughness 3 models.

And there is not much room to increase the other statlines. Maybe Ld 9 in general and initiative 6 or something like that.

So high elves need very strong special rules that justify there elite point cost and feeling.

ASF does a good job for that right now, but it gets a lot of flak and creates a lot of issues especially for weaker close combat specialist armies.

So what we really need is a special rule that justifies the huge price tags on our troops, despite there fragility. Any ideas?
Didnt you see my post? hehe

I have some other ideas too. I'll reply later with my idea's for melee.

Chiungalla
04-01-2011, 21:37
For archers, remove long range penalty, gain always wound T4, T5, and T6 on a 4+ with shooting, and increase the volly so the whole unit may shoot.

For reavers, make them 18 pts with spear and bow, lose all shooting penalties, gain +1 to wound with shooting.

Both would be to good.

The archers would instant-kill nearly every big monster around in warhammer that does not have a decent armor save or regeneration, and even those will have a hard time.

And I can't even imagine something that slays giants as easily as it slays normal humans.

Loose all penalties is a not so good special rule, because it takes away decisions from the player. Should I move or should I hit better? Should I close in to get into close range? I don't care since I get no penalty whatsoever.

+1 to wound is by far better then +1 strength.


for RBT, remove range penalty, increase the single bolt to a strength 7 d6 wound (with a +1 to hit) instead of strength 6 d3 wound. Change the volly so that it wounds t1-t3 on a 2+ t4-t6 on a 3+ and t7-t10 on a 4+, keep the armor piercing -2, then they'd be worth the 100 pts, maybe a little more, this way they're not cheap so you cant spam them, but they should be worth the points. I'd probably also increase their save, since the war machine now uses the crew as wounds, the machine itself could be used to represent armor save added in addition to their light armor, so maybe... 3+ save?

Again, way over the top.

It's no good idea after all, to create something that bypasses the toughness of your opponent to such a high degree. It always creates issues with the balance, since your opponent has paid points for his toughness.


This is mainly inspired by the dark eldar now having a ton of poisoned weapons, we'll be able to inflict more wounds with shooting, but there will be no armor penitration from strength or ap so its not too overpowering. I dont think our archers should be cheap, but I think they should effective for their points.

It will be highly overpowered.
Armor is not that common in warhammer, and especially many creatures with a toughness of 5 or 6 are very expensive and have bad armor saves.

In 40K you at least could always say, you may get my cheap troops but my tanks and terminators would survive. But in fantasy you will take away the hard units with this special rule.

enyoss
04-01-2011, 21:44
The absolute first thing I would do with High Elves is get fid of the SoA rule. It was designed to fix problems with 7th edition which no longer exist in 8th, and it makes no sense.

Obviously they'd need a new army-wide rule, not sure what that would be. Possibly something to do with pride/arrogance.

I definitely agree with Silver Helms becoming Core again. Moving them to special was another part of the 7th edition "papering over the cracks" fix to prevent all HE armies being all-cavalry, but now that core infantry are worth taking it's not an issue.

I think you've put it quite nicely Odin, without resorting to howling about how Adam Troke should be hanged :). As you say, both of these issues were necessary (and in my view welcome) fixes for problems rising from how High Elves functioned in 7th edition. I'd like to see them reversed, although I'm not sure how I'd compensate for it in the list.



harder shadow warriors.


Agreed. Shadow Warriors need some work. A simple points drop, extra hand weapons and loss of hatred would be fine for me.



change great eagles so that they are played as powerful and sacred beings, not as worothless wolf riders


I agree! I think there is a nice space for them as a 3A, S5 flying monstrous cavalry, if that makes sense. Also, changing the role of Great Eagles helps Shadow Warriors re-establish their own skirmish and disruption niche. As it is we have Eagles, Reavers and Shadow Warriors all doing essentially the same thing.



make lion charriot a lot more expensive an RARE slot, but mend their poor resilience (T5, 5W,3+ AS)


I think a fair few other things should be dumped into rare as well, with Phoenix Guard as my first choice. Along with putting Silverhelms in core, this would bring High Elves in line with everyone else such that they don't require special get-out clauses in army composition.

Apart from that, I wouldn't want to see any major changes to the list. I certainly wouldn't want to see any new units created just for the hell of it (I found the Lion Chariot hard enough to stomach), and would rather not see the reappearance of a plethora of wacky unit-specific special rules a la 5th edition.

Xyon
04-01-2011, 22:08
Well, again, I'd only give the special 4+ wound to archers, not seaguard or any other unit with bows. how about 4+ against t4, 5+ against t5, and regular vs the rest of stuff? the main problem I'm trying to fix is being able to wound tough stuff like dwarfs, orcs, chaos warriors, and stuff that is either high toughness or high armor or a mix of both.

Allandar
04-01-2011, 22:53
I agree with HE striking in initiative order, even with GW.

Archers no long range penalty.

Eagles, I would give them a special rule - Swoop - +2 Strength on the charge. Encourage them to charge and give them a good chance to knock out a war machine.

Reavers - bows for free

Shadow Warriors - BS5 or two hand weapons, would need to be play tested

RBT's = 75 pts.

Silver Helms - same as everybody else, Core etc.

Korraz
04-01-2011, 22:57
That's just ridiculous. I'm sorry. Bows aren't SUPPOSED to easily wound tough stuff.

theunwantedbeing
04-01-2011, 23:01
That's just ridiculous. I'm sorry. Bows aren't SUPPOSED to easily wound tough stuff.

This is a wishlist thread, the whole point is to propose lots of stupid overpowered rules everyone will claim are fine.

druchii7
04-01-2011, 23:31
That's just ridiculous. I'm sorry. Bows aren't SUPPOSED to easily wound tough stuff.

what is ridiculous is to find an elf as cheap as an imperial spearman with shield. elves are few, so elves must be expensive, but elves are fragile... then we have 2 options: make them extremly killy or giving them crazy stuff.

today I find greenskin shot phase a lot more threatening than elven one... when HE or DE fight them, greenskins stay in their place and elves run to engage them... that's stupid and unfluffy, but true.

Ravening Wh0re
05-01-2011, 00:02
I want the return of Intrigue at Court rule. The single most apt rule for the High Elves, encompassing their arrogance and distain for the lesser races.

Never happen though, since it was unpopular :(

Algovil
05-01-2011, 00:20
Chiungalla I think you are spot on! Low strength and toughness for elves, heavy armour could be okey I guess. Fragile elites, with great fighting skill but low toughness. With high initiative ASF only gives rerolls for common troops, losing the rerolls is a big change and not really necessary, I think SoA, ASF should remain for all units without GW. Balancing greatweapons is harder as elves need ASF to do damage before they die.

Would like to see some kind of change to make elves a little less killy, just a bit, but quite a bit harder to kill, not by increasing toughness or armour, but instead some kind of rule to make them harder to hit, reroll to hit rolls vs elves would maybe be taking it a bit to far but :rolleyes:

I find the High Elves a great army, with weaknesses and strengths and three different special choices with small differences, yet all usable for different roles, In my eyes, the High Elf, Dwarf and Empire books are the best in the league. Less is more, warhammer should not be about list building and item choices but skill on battlefield (and luck).

Since no one commented on my earlier suggestion I must ask again, why not give archers the choice to fire 2 arrows instead of one each phase, maybe with extra -1 to hit, that would give them a greater chance of hitting with at least one arrow and a small chance of hitting with two, would increase the damage output. The problem is still heavy armoured units, but I find it just right that arrows bounce of, there are so many thing negating armour anyway! Use ASF swordmasters vs chaos warriors instead ;)

enyoss
05-01-2011, 01:02
Never happen though, since it was unpopular :(

I hated it, mainly because the White Lions bodyguard rule practically depended on knowing who your general was during army creation. The random general part wouldn't be too bad, especially if Pure of Heart was reinstated to at least give your first choice character (the general `on merit' if you will) that little extra to compensate.

Trains_Get_Robbed
05-01-2011, 02:38
As Chiungalla has mentioned, and I will bring up, yes most of the people here wishlisting don't play H.E, nonetheless, the SoA I think needs to be broken. H.E in my opinon boarder now with L.M, Skaven and Dwarves on O.P next to D.Eleves, Demons (these are tourney bulids).

However, when not playing for the Worldwide Warhammer championship, and each opponet takes an average list, I would argue that H.E move into the 'upper categorey' with Demons and D.E. This manily because most people just rush their expensive, or overtly killy models into (what would be my killy models) and they get meat-grindered.

So, I agree that SoA dumping although was inacted to even out 'strength' of H.E army in the IoB set, it really isn't needed anymore. This being said though, IF YOU DUMP AOS, YOU STILL HAVE BALANCING ISSUES ON YOUR HANDS.

H.E are supposed to be the elite of the elite, few in numbers and all-knowing/encompassing of battle tactics, the art of combat, etc . . . So this would justify their points cost no? Obviously not with the stereotypical qualties we associate with Eleves and what they are supposed to be, how can one justify a 15 point model with S3, T3 and a +5 A.S with a Great Weapon and thus is striking last? You can't.

So the real problem I see (as a H.E player, and player in general) is how do you make a low T, low A.S, and low S be worth 15 points? Keeping the models in the army at around the 15 points level will ensure the 'elite army' feel, and is necessary, so what does G.W do?

Their options are: make the Elves killy -which they already are now with the new SoA rule, and many people whine about it, and you can't raise S- make them suffer less wounds/casulaties -but how does one do this without rasing T or A.S? Perahps a dodge save as some have mentioned? However, this could create even more problems- or lastly somehow use WS/BS and I to their advantage in combat (which is their only adavantages agaisnt any army) increase their ability to again kill or survive.

Things that shouldn't be done to the army is nerfing the magic. The magic phase is what the H.E rely on, and if you alter that in anyway, your army is ******d. Seriously, have any of you tried playing H.E with no magic at all? 3 and A.S +5 only gets you so far. Magic is what allows H.E to boost the low S, T and A.S on their models, and or makes it easier to bypass the high S,T and A.S on enemy models. If G.W were to alter the Magic phase, in addition to eliminate SoA and even (as some people that don't play H.E obviously) make them less killy :wtf: you my as well unpack your minis from your bag and then repack them, shake hands and leave beacuse it won't be a match or any fun for that matter, it would be like playing T.K with only core, and no magic allowed.

What I would like to see instead of a nerfing of H.E magic, I would like to see a super defensive magic phase. The A.B goes on and on about Vortexs, and items, and mastery of the magical arts, about how H.E are the greatest defensive magic users in the game, and in game, they aren't even close. Making H.E A.M as good as Slanns in game for defensive magic should be the focus. Like D.E and PoD for example, instead the H.E mages know a basic spell or two like the one below.

Take out the Vortex Shard as an item, and make it a bound spell with a high casting vaule +20 -for those of you that don't know what it does, it ends the magic phase instantly (I don't believe remains in play,perhaps though, don't have book on me right now). So have it soon as it is cast end all magic for the turn in your own or enemy magic phase. Have Drain Magic be a spell that adds +3,+6 or +9 based on the level cast.

In addition, or instead of these spells (if they are too 'outlandish' which they really aren't) to knowing these, have a dispelling bonus as a passive ability. Like:

-For each spell a H.E mage dispells a +2 is added to the casting vaule of every spell the person attempts to cast later in the phase (sets back to zero at start of next phase, this could or could not include bound items).

or

-For every spell a H.E mage dispells, they recieve a +1/+2 (former for Lvl1/2 adn latter for Lvl3/4) to dispell for spells later casted in the phase. This ability can stack as the mage is able to suck more and more of the magic out of the winds.

or

-For every spell the H.E player dispells, the recieve one additional free D.D.

I can understand the hate on the BoH and Teclis, which is fine, go ahead and get rid of doubles = I.F but if you take dump on that for magic, one has to somehow increase their magic prowness, what I have brought up could be an alternative.

UNIT BREAKDOWN: :shifty:

An overall points decrease in the book is needed in my opinon, to fit in with the metagame, and tactical feel of armies now. Instead of having 60 models on a table and feeling 'elite' at now its standard to have 80 or 90 models and feel elite as most people have increased game size and some A.B as of late *cough Skaven, D.E, L.M* have point costed things lower than other 7th ed. armies.

Silvehelms as core as I and many others have mentioned, along with points dropped and Shields for free.

Ellyrion Reavers, this guys wouldn't be so terrible if they didn't cost so much, and suck so much at attacking. Whether attacking in close combat, or shooting from horseback, they can't do anyhting, and cost as much as S.H, which I would glady run in a 1 by 5 formation and pay reforms for movement to Warmachine hunt, at least they have a save.

Drop them by 2 points, and in bows for free, a rule (others have mentioned) no penalty for marching and shooting, and give them "Reaver Bows" that shoot S5 shots instead of S3. Still makes D.Riders and Pistolers top of the game in terms of Fast Cav. but makes the H.E general contemplate these guys or Eagles, or later S.W.

And now onto archers. These guys are terrible. They haven't seen the field since 7th, and frankly never will as they cost exceddingly too much for a S3 hitting on 4's Bowshot. There really isn't a reason to take them save for your in the High Elf player camp of "I love more target priority, and as a result take 2 units of spears, and a unit of archers, instead of a unit of spears and LSG" -this tactic still lacks logic though frankly.

How do you solve this problem? I mentioned in my first post, give the archers either K.B at short range, and S4 (at this point the W.E book will be done already and their shooting will be simliar but even better than this perhaps) due to elves great eye sight and the bow allowing more accuracy to 'shoot for the eyes' mentality, and decrease their points to like 8 or 9. Then maybe, just maybe a H.E general would consider taking them.

There is no room in a army for S3 bow shots that even hit on 3's as some mentioned, as they do nothing. Really, anything that S3 bowshots can wound is going to come en masse and won't feel losing 3-4 pesants or halbreds, or slaves per turn (these even still get a +5 A.S) and anything that is T4 or higher with any kind of armor, won't feel it. And, its not like your taking 25 bowmen a game either for that odd fail of a +1 A.S knight, oyu have 10, maybe 11 or 12 at the most. Archers definitly need fixing.

Shadow Warriors. The most useless unit in the entire book. Really, as with the archers, they have so few abililties and have such a exorbitant point cost that there is no reason to even consider them.

"Oh, well the scout. . ." So who cares? They archers that can scout essentially, and have D.E emo angst syndrome.

To fix them, they need much more than a 2-3 point decrease and 2 hand weapons. Try a point decrease, move to Rare Section, add in BS5 (this is a maybe, if not BS5 then 3 points decrease) and Nagyrthe Bows, that act like the Reaver Bow, but are S4 and posioned. Give two hand Wepons and a Dodge Save, or a shield and H.A.

W.L and P.G I would change two things, drop fear from the P.G and Stubborn from the W.L and would drop both models to 13 points a model.

S.M, 8th kind of nerfed these guys a bit, they already blew chunks at surviving, and now the MSU game taken away, and the inabilty to attack in 2 ranks really hurt these guys.

Looking at them, I would let them not only keep strike at I order with G.W, but also keep AoS only for them and increase their attacks by one, perahps even giving them a dodge/swift sword save.

Chariots point reducitons on both, make Lion Chariot more fierce and more surivable as some have said, with Stubborn and T5 5 wounds.

Dragon Princes dropped in points, raised to a +1 A.S, but otherwise kept the same.

RBT, or in other words, Revered By Two (people). They are so over costed for what they do, and rarley ever do what they are supposed to as is, I never take them anymore, as there are too many better choices. However, if they were dropped to 75 points, and had a S8/9 Bolt that did D6 wounds, and had a volley fire mode of 2D6+2 shots (as I mentioned before), then I would consider taking them (although, the randomness of the shots is unH.E like, it could be explained by the bundles of arrows that stuck together instead of spiltting apart perahps?). Moved to special as well.

Great Eagles are awesome for their points, but were even better in 7th ed. They may not need to be that awesome self-sacraficing unit, however, I would like their image changed a little bit, perhaps something like an increase in I and like someone else said a S boost on the charge. A move to special section as well.

Dragons and mounts, decreased in stats, and SUPER BOOSTED in stats. If I'm paying 370 points for a Star Dragon, the "GREATEST DRAGONS EVER" *in a booming movie guy voice* I want them to actually represent that. Right now. . . they don't at all. If I want a steriod dragon, I'll take a level 2 mage or 4 mage, get Transformation for Kadon and P.Scroll to a Fire Dragon. Hell, this Dragon can even be in units. Also, boositng a cool idea in a Dragon Mage by giving them free Caledor Armor, would be cool.

I would love to see (as I have mentioned before) Maidenguard brought back and reworked so that they aren't 'Superrrrr Sessaaassguards,' and put into rare section. However, I also would like to see Charcian Cavlary! Lion Cav. would absoulutley cool, and one could make them T4 (I know long shot), or what not and essentially be a rare choice as well.

Lastly, I would love to see City/State bonuses for Prince, and Lords. Your Lord is from Caledor? He can take a Dragon for his mount and not cost as many points, also any Dragon Prince unit he joins gains frenzy, lastly, you recieve Caledor Armor for free.

Perhaps your a Prince from Charcian? Well, now you can ride a lion, a Greater Lion in fact, and also give any White Lion unit your in Stubborn.

What is that you say, you have joined/seen the true Asyran, but can't speak it? No biggie, I can hook you up with some really cool guys that have had the samething happen to them. Your a P.G for life, you gain a +3 ward automatically, have acess to even more magic weapons one of which does D6 wounds, and forces enemies to reroll sucessful armor and ward saves, and in addtion any P.G unit you join, recieves Terror.

Ahh, no, you have chosen instead to spend a life in the sword acadamey, protecting mages? Well, sir, you are now a Level 1/2 mage automatically and know spells from the H.E lore of magic, can buy really, really cool items, like the White Sword on Steroids -it would give killing blow- and give any S.M unit your in -1 to hit in combat and shooting, includes yourself.

In retrospect, I would like H.E to have multidues of army bulids and facets that can work and be fun at the same time tactical. Right now I have 2 army builds for every point level, and the only way to really compete tactically or have fun is to bring those lists, but they become boring after awhile, because it jumps them from average to phenominal, no inbetween. :/ Essentially if they were to be on par with D.E, Skaven or etc. . . with the varability of list effectiveness of Skaven or Empire etc. . . I would be happy.

*Yes, the suggestions are radical, its a wishlist.

On a side note on the S.C Teclis. Sure you can raise him up to 575 or 600, thats fine by me, but what he brings to the table isn't worth anymore than a A.M and a H.E Lord from experience (and opinon).

I would love to see Tyrion become the combat monster he is 'supposed' to be as well, he is like the Second coming of Aernaeon in skill and prowness so he needs to start showing it (kind of like Vallateri Flippula for all you Detroiters, all bark, no bite).

Xyon
05-01-2011, 03:52
That's just ridiculous. I'm sorry. Bows aren't SUPPOSED to easily wound tough stuff.

First of all, they're not just bows, they're bows being wielded by elfs, in a fantasy world, where magic and real world physics dont have to apply! Use whatever excuse you want, be it they're very finely crafted bows and arrows, possibly enchanted, or the archers are skilled in hitting their targets in the eye, which will as easily kill a dwarf as a snotling. People keep forgetting warhammer isnt historical, isnt logical, not does it make sense. You're willing to suspend disbelief to accept demons being summoned by magic, and being unstable then they're beaten up. Magic in general, dragons, all kinds of stuff! Whats so different about what I or any of the other people are suggesting as drastic changes to improve things?

Things HE could wound on unmodified 4+ with their bows will either have a high armor save, or tons of models, or multiple wounds per model. At 11 points per model, they should be more effective than s3 bs4, which is worse than many of the bs2 s3 or bs3 s3 shooting because they can get more shots.

UberBeast
05-01-2011, 04:04
RIP IAC...

Edit, for some reason I had to add more to make those acronyms capitalized.

Foxbat
05-01-2011, 04:19
This is my wish list for my HE army:

Unit Revisions (unless noted, no change to current costs):
- Archers: gain Martial Prowess and get a shield equipment option;
- SW: gain Martial Prowess & get “Evade Strikes” special rule giving them a 6+ WS vs. any wound;
- SH: Optional barding, up to a 25 pt magic Banner, & unit champ with up to 15 pts of magic items;
- Reavers: Moved to Core with champ: 10 pts, standard bearer: 10 pts, musician: 5 pts;
- RBT Crew: Get shields;
- RBT: New “Precision Machine” rule that grants +1 To Hit provided the machine is not wounded;
- T-Chariot: Crew get shields;

Revisions to Character equipment options:
- In addition to Korhil, all non-special Characters can take a Lion Chariot; and
- Nobles and Mages can take a Griffon (alternatively, just allow the army’s BSB to ride one).

Revisions to Magic Items:
- Book of Hoeth : model & unit protected against first Miscast effect per Magic Phase (same cost);

Now for the big question on SoA. Personally, I think the rule should remain as is, because to change it would require a large revision to the HE army or a myriad of new rules. For example, if I were looking to revise the SoA, I would make the following minimum revisions:
- New SoA: “Models lose any re-rolls to hit, irrespective of source, if their Initiative is equal to or lower than the Initiative of the HE model they are attacking in close combat.”
- All HE models have Martial Prowess;
- WL Woodsmans Axes are one handed weapons that strike with +2S;
- SM ignore ASL;
- HE models with a mount gain a Parry Save when using a shield and a standard hand weapon;
- All HE standard hand weapons, spears, and lances strike with an additional +1S (non-magical);
- Except for Archamges and Mages, all HE units that do not already have a shield or shield option gain a shield option; and
- Reavers that are equipped with a shield do not lose the Fast Calvary special rule.

Chiungalla
05-01-2011, 06:26
@Xyon:
"Bows not supposed to easily kill tough thinks", need not to be a statement about logic, non-fantasy realism or something like that.

It can also be a very true statement about game design.

The problem with high elf archers is, that they are bad as they are now, for there point cost. They can't get much lower in points because the high elves will loose the elite feeling then. But they can't get to much better, because wood elves will suck then compared to high elves. And wood elf archers can't become much better, because they would be to good then.

High toughness things should not die to "light shooting" like flies.

So what wood elves do with there bows is the top level you should get with shooting bows, with no movement penalty and strengh 4 on short range, and high elves should stay a little below that.

After all shooting isn't on of the main themes of the army. They are hard hitting close combat units backed up with magic. Shooting should only be an addition. There should not be such a thing as an high elf gunline (bowline?). And high elves should take out high toughness opponents with magic or in close combat, and they are perfectly capable of doing both.

First rank shooting two times with a -1 to hit for the entire unit and armor piercing would be good enough for 10 point archers with light armor. It will bring them in line with dark elves (maybe 11 points, if ASF is still in there). But this may still be to good. It should be play tested.

Shadow warriors can have the same rule, poisoned arrows and BS 5 for 15 or 16 points and would be okay, and even good in war-machine hunting.

Pariah-Miniatures
05-01-2011, 08:53
I would really like to see HE get another rare unit, possibly a large mage construct like HORDES megalith, http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/circle-orboros/warbeasts/megalith
Or something similar to the DE CoB.

King_Pash
05-01-2011, 09:18
@Trains

A lot of very interesting ideas here and it's refreshing to see someone tackle it from a tactic point of view rather than just whining because they got pawned by a HE player using a pure cheese list. There's still a lot of radical ideas there that for me, just wouldn't make the cut. Still, there are parts that seemed to make sense and I think could be made to work in a new Army book.

In my opinion, High Elves are not as cheesy as a lot of people seems to say (the loud minority, I would suspect). Overall, High Elves do not even come top 10 in any tournament. It takes a lot of skill to use them well and even then other armies can do the same for cheaper and more special rules (i'm looking at DE, Vamps, maybe LZ). As they are, High Elves are a very good army book but they are not in the top 5 most powerful armies so there really is nothing to whine about.

P.S. I have yet to play with Teclis or the BoH in 8th Edition but since almost all Tournaments in UK ban them, I see little point in exploring their tactical applications.

Korraz
05-01-2011, 10:39
This is a wishlist thread, the whole point is to propose lots of stupid overpowered rules everyone will claim are fine.

I see. Language discrepancy. In the german boards, only serious ideas are allowed. Or at least funny.

And I was talking about game balance. You wouldn't even have to field your big infantry, chariots, monsters or anything expansive and big against a HE army with that rule.
I could see Archers fixed with
-The hypothetical Elite Army rule
-May volley fire with all models in the unit
-May Stand and Shoot with volley fire (maybe only with the usual VF amount)

And SoA, while adressing game issues, opens far too many holes elsewhere. For example, why are High Elves suddenly faster than the speed of light, while their identical brethren with differen colours are not?
-SM strike in initiative order
-WL strike last, but get a slight points decrease
-The "Elite" Rule...I don't know. I honestly haven't got an idea. But it should reflect the mentality, not the physical capability of them.

AramilSairSianontel
05-01-2011, 10:43
I)

And SoA, while adressing game issues, opens far too many holes elsewhere. For example, why are High Elves suddenly faster than the speed of light, while their identical brethren with differen colours are not?
.

And why Brettonians can lance formation while empire can't?

+1 King_Pash

Althwen
05-01-2011, 11:05
I don't really think that ASF benefits High Elves at all. I mean, obvioulsy in terms of rules it does, but my experience with it, is that it makes for boring gameplay. When gamedesigners and rulewriters understood that High Elves needed some fixing they opted for a quick fix instead of a decent, thought-through rebalancing of the army.
I think High Elves is currently one of the most boring looking armies on the battlefield with almost no variety in basesize or models.
I'm just looking at a bunch of blocks made up of white skinny dudes that all vary in terms of choppiness...
I'm not a fan of armywide special rules other than: Undead or Daemonic, but ASF for High Elves takes the cake at killing an army's mojo.

Korraz
05-01-2011, 11:09
And why Brettonians can lance formation while empire can't?

+1 King_Pash

Different training, different horses, different equip. Lance formation is a formation, something that has to be trained and can be learned.

But the three kinds of elves are all three going to war. They might train differently, each one with a different point of focus, but in the end they are all three elves. One of them is more for shooting, so he isn't that good at close combat. But HE and DE? They are virtually identical. Hell, DEs should be better at combat, going constantly raiding. Wearing white isn't magically making you faster than everything.

AramilSairSianontel
05-01-2011, 11:14
Different training, different horses, different equip. Lance formation is a formation, something that has to be trained and can be learned.

But the three kinds of elves are all three going to war. They might train differently, each one with a different point of focus, but in the end they are all three elves. One of them is more for shooting, so he isn't that good at close combat. But HE and DE? They are virtually identical. Hell, DEs should be better at combat, going constantly raiding. Wearing white isn't magically making you faster than everything.

Well DE actually are better at combat. However that's my point exactly. If two human nations, can have different abilities due to different training, and equipment, two elven races, can have different abilities too.
Anyway, still, ASF doesn't make the HE book a powerful, or imbalanced book. If the Elves are to survive the 8th they need drastic changes that will make them last longer on the battlefield than what T3 and heavy armour can provide.

theunwantedbeing
05-01-2011, 11:26
I@C should return, it won't make the slightest difference in game terms.
Change valour of ages to work against all armies, not just dark elves.
Remove SoA on everyone but Swordmasters.

Heavy armour option for spearmen(to make them 10pts each)
Seaguard allowed the same heavy armour option, docked to 12pts a model with everything.
Archers docked to 9pts a model.

Change drain magic to limit dice levels by 1-3pts depending on the level it is cast at.
So the highest level means a model can throw no more than 3 dice at a spell, not 6.

Lion Chariots made 100pts, lions go down to a single in4 ws4 st4 attack each.

All elite infantry goes down to 13pts each.

Shadow warriors get access to an extra hand weapon for +1pt
They get no cheaper than 15pts a model.

All core unit's allowed a 25pt magical banner.
All special unit's allowed a 50pt magical banner.
Phoenix guard and Dragon princes allowed a 75pt magical banner.
All unit champions allowed upto 25pts of magical items.

Dragon mages allowed a lance.

All HE mages add +1 to dispel attempts and may continue to attempt to dispel even after they have already failed to dispel a previous spell in that magic phase.

AramilSairSianontel
05-01-2011, 12:11
If a negative fluff rule should return to HE, then DE and WE should have appropriate "negative" fluff rules to make up for it.

I do not find flaws to most of the things that theunwantedbeing and i like most of it
other than that the problem of the dragon mage is more his survivability than his hitting power...maybe a new kind of hero one that could be either a dragon knight-or mage like the one HE currently have would also be nice for players and sales IF they manage to make him equally balanced and competitive.

Trains_Get_Robbed
05-01-2011, 15:29
King_Pash: At least someone read my post ;P I also agree, that it seems to be a minority from 'whineseer' that is speaking out wanting to dump SoA -not that I wouldn't be a proponet of doing so. However that being said, I did present many a radical ideas -Archers, Reavers and Shadow Warriors come to mind.

This being said, I do believe some ideas could/would be crucial to implement such as the +1/+2 to dispelling attempts for every sucessful dispell (resets every magic phase) or an additional dice added to the pool for every spell dispelled.

To be honest, H.E really aren't that great. Grant it, they do excell in certain situations more than other armies (thats the nature of the game though) however, like you mentioned, they rarley place at the top, or in the top of the Tournament scene. What I find to be the problem is that in friendly games there really isn't a off button/ or tone down switch on H.E, without making your tactics or army compostion completely radiacal -if oyu want a combat heavy light list, what does a H.E player take? More spearmen, ASF still presents itself, hence the totally facelift on list -see a bowline for example.

Most average gamers I see up at my local G.W are there just to throw some dice around (as I'am most the time) and haven fun. However, when the game commences, whether in tournament or friendly play, you still have ASF and the opponet whether trying out Snotling Wagon, or T.K fast Cav. to Demonettes and a Spirit Swallower G.D, the elves will always retain ASF. This can present a problem for the not up to par/ average tactical 'Joe' that I seem to see up at my local meta game, and as a result, creates a hypothetical aura around H.E that ASF is broken. Whe in reality its not.




I@C should return, it won't make the slightest difference in game terms.
Change valour of ages to work against all armies, not just dark elves.
Remove SoA on everyone but Swordmasters.

Heavy armour option for spearmen(to make them 10pts each)
Seaguard allowed the same heavy armour option, docked to 12pts a model with everything.
Archers docked to 9pts a model.

Change drain magic to limit dice levels by 1-3pts depending on the level it is cast at.
So the highest level means a model can throw no more than 3 dice at a spell, not 6.

Lion Chariots made 100pts, lions go down to a single in4 ws4 st4 attack each.

All elite infantry goes down to 13pts each.

Shadow warriors get access to an extra hand weapon for +1pt
They get no cheaper than 15pts a model.

All core unit's allowed a 25pt magical banner.
All special unit's allowed a 50pt magical banner.
Phoenix guard and Dragon princes allowed a 75pt magical banner.
All unit champions allowed upto 25pts of magical items.

Dragon mages allowed a lance.

All HE mages add +1 to dispel attempts and may continue to attempt to dispel even after they have already failed to dispel a previous spell in that magic phase.


Being, your suggestion aren't terrible, its just that they don't really adress the H.E problems of not having SoA and actually more than likley compound it with I@C.

Things I would bring up with what you present:

What is the differenc betweent the Lion Chariot and the Tiranoic one? Fear, 2 S4 A and a single S6 attack? I would pay 15 extra points for that, and I know alot of the H.E community would as well, however, why would I ever consider taking a Tiranoc chariot again?

Archers lowered in points, still wouldn't justify taking them, whether they are 58 points a model, or 9, they still suck.

Why on earth would one raise Spears and LSG? We have a hard time already trying to get decent units on the field, doing this would just further the reason to take minimum core espeically with your proposed drop of special troops. If anything, Spearmen should be given H.A and dropped in points to 7/8, maybe kept at 9 if Marital Prowness intacted. LSG should see a point drop as well to around 11 they come as they are same in the A.B now.

Allowing P.G and D.P to take more banners is kind of useless frankly, taking more special banners that require points take away already from the exorbient troop cost we have, plus the only banner worth taking/H.E have at +50 points, is the Banner of World Dragon, and I find it personally to useless as it can do more harm than good, save for a super horde of S.M that could possibly be dwellerd or Infernaled or 13thed first turn. H.E are S3 T3 A.S +5, there is no reason why one wouldn't want to buff them to T7 or give them a +5 ward save, fixing there inherent flaws.

I like the idea of extra hand weapon, and 15 points a model for S.W, though again they really need something else to make them stick out to actually take.

I@C, would absoultley lame. There is no reason that H.E of all races should suffer from a 'animosity-like' stunt. Hell, for that matter no army should have rules that have detriment towards them unless the rule can pay off mor than it can hurt. I@C dosen't do that. Now if I@C had more/better bonuses possible for a H.E for a army, than yes, I might be on board for a sp. rule that hurts my army, however I@C in its current state really dosen't do that.



The way I see it, an A.B should have choices that are not only fluff-oriented, but compete with one another for army roster space. I believe Skaven of late, D.E capture that well. Yes, they are both top tiered armies, but if all the choices are good, then there is incentive to take/ try to take everything. The key is however, not to make the choices too good, so that the entire book is O.P.

AramilSairSianontel
05-01-2011, 15:42
.
The way I see it, an A.B should have choices that are not only fluff-oriented, but compete with one another for army roster space. I believe Skaven of late, D.E capture that well. Yes, they are both top tiered armies, but if all the choices are good, then there is incentive to take/ try to take everything. The key is however, not to make the choices too good, so that the entire book is O.P.[/COLOR]

That sounds like a nice suggestion...do you think that such a book could be friendly and competitive at the same time? Because i'm always afraid of a beastman kind of book...

In my opinion HE should be an Elite army. An army that excels in whichever it chooses to do, but punishes the mistakes of a general who is not mindful of the precious Ulthuanite lives of his sholdiers...

Algovil
05-01-2011, 16:24
I would also like to see high elves goint elite for real, they should be able to dominate most phases, but with few numbers and expensive costs they are not almighty. Low toughness and strength must remain.

@Trains_Get_Robbed - I've read both your posts and you have som interesting ideas. But frankly IMHO you might be taking it to far. Spearmen for 7-8 points? You know that skeletons are 9 points with spears right? Empire spearman are 6 points each with shields, why does high elves have to have cheap core? There are many other armies where core is more of a liability than helpful, and others where there is no reason to take many special choices at all, I prefer an army consisting of mostly core with other units as support, but I do not agree with lowering spearmen in points, are they not quite fine as is?

About pluses to dispel, we already have dwarfs and empire, high elves are masters of magic but just giving them + to dispel is quite boring IMO, why not a way for them to controll the winds of magic instead? For example, spell which increases or decreases dice for both next magic phase, but then with a backslash in the other direction next turn, when the winds hold back come sweeping in on the battlefield. This could be used for that crucial magic phase, or for halting the enemies for a short while. Fits good with the fluff IMO, need balancing.

Like suggested before with a twist, giving archers the choice to fire twice each phase when standing still? Would make them worthwhile, good for initial fire to thin out the enemy, but not overly powerful vs heavy armoured enemies which arrows should not be. Maybe restrict someway.

I does not have the experience to tell which armies HE have troubles with now. Please think about this for a moment, and then we can take it from there, as well as giving the less useful unitchoices a small but necessary buff.

Great idea with a rule for Nobels and Princes from different areas of Ulthuan. Like powers in addition to items, kind of like bloodlines.

King_Pash
05-01-2011, 16:41
Trains, the posts were quite long so it did take a while to read but you had some valid points so it was worth the eye-strain :P

I think to approach a new High Elf army book you have to look at a wider picture first. Determine what a High Elf force should feel like and what it should look like on the table. Basically, you look at the fluff and try and reflect that into the table top. It would also be a big bonus if the end product didn't suck balls :/

So, what do you think are the highlights and "fluffiest" parts of the High Elves and how would you reflect this in the rules without making it crap/overpowered?

To start us off here are some thoughts:

-High Elves are masters of magic to all bar the Slann. They should be able to control some parts of the phase that shows their intimate knowledge of the winds of magic. Examples: each HE mage gets to re-roll ONE miscast per game and pick the best result; HE mages channel PD/DD on 5+; HE get +1 to cast AND to dispell etc.

-High Elves are an Elite Army. This means there should be less of them on the field than say, Skaven. Now, this inherently means that they will be more expensive than other single models. This might need to be externally balanced against other armies and stat-lines. Examples: (this one's a bit radical) CHANGE THE "TO HIT" CHART, yeah, I said it. The fact that High Elves have a higher average weapon skill than any other race should mean something on the battlefield. I suggest than equal WS is 4+, one or two points higher WS is 5+. The current "more than double" is absolutely useless unless you're fighting Chaos Lord against Skellies. I think it could work if looked across the whole board and would make certain special rules useful again (Fear when fighting Skellies or Zombies etc.).

Just my thoughts, see what you can come up with.

Reimu
05-01-2011, 16:42
No idea if I've posted in this thread yet, but here goes:

I'd like to see regional traits for characters, like a little upgrade for a points cost that helps theme characters. For instance, theming a character after Caledor might bring more cost-effective Dragons, or something. And if that character is your General, Dragon Princes are Core. But if you General had the White Lion trait, White Lions become Core instead. And so on and so forth. Kind of like the 6th Edition setup, but more so.

Make every sort of Dragon cost an extra 20 points, but give them all a better armour save by one point and an extra point of strength with the breath weapon. I dislike having something slightly inferior to other Dragons or otherwise having to pay through the nose for the Star Dragon.

Time to mix up the magic weapons. The mainstays like the Star Lance and magic bows should stay, but no-one ever uses the others because the game is so biased towards strength bonuses. So our magic weapons should be more bizarre or something. Perhaps a magic hand weapon for 100 points that uses the bearer's Leadership score instead of Strength when rolling to wound? Or a sword that adds the user's magic level to their Attacks, Initiative, Weapon Skill and Strength?

Dragon Mages should probably have Dragons as optional, and should have a counterpart Lord choice. Just so they can be accommodated in very small and very large games. Although there should be some bonus for them riding a Dragon as incentive, like more effective magic or the Dragon gets extra Initiative or something.

Riderless Dragons as Rare choices? Or something like, a Sun Dragon is a Special Choice, a Moon Dragon is a Rare choice and a Star Dragon is two Rare chocies.

(I really like Dragons.)

Shooty builds have to become more viable without overpowering shooty units as part of mixed armies. A one point price drop for Archers is in order no matter how you slice it. Similarly, Repeater Bolt Throwers need to have their points cost lowered. More magic bows would be good, especially if there were one or two minor ones for 25 points. Perhaps Hawkeyes could be specifically allowed to take these?

Perhaps Archers could ignore the -1 penalty to long range shots as long as they Volley Fire? Or if they Volley Fire in great enough numbers. Or perhaps Volley Fire could allow every model in the unit to fire as if from the first or second rank?

Similarly, Shadow Warriors also need to come down in points cost. That could really do for them.

Lothern Sea Guard should probably drop a point.

Silver Helms should go back to being Core.

Ellyrian Reavers aren't currently worth their cost.

High Elf characters mounted on Elven Steeds with an armour save of 4+ or worse should benefit from the Fast Cavalry rules (thus allowing Ellyrian Reavers to become a highly mobile and effective retinue for a Death Magic Mage...)

And in a throwback to 5th Edition, Toughness 4 characters. :(

Xyon
05-01-2011, 16:51
@Xyon:
"Bows not supposed to easily kill tough thinks", need not to be a statement about logic, non-fantasy realism or something like that.

It can also be a very true statement about game design.

The problem with high elf archers is, that they are bad as they are now, for there point cost. They can't get much lower in points because the high elves will loose the elite feeling then. But they can't get to much better, because wood elves will suck then compared to high elves.

Why cant they improve wood elfs then? Quite frankly I dont subscribe to the whole, dark elf should be better at, wood elf should be better at, high elf should be better at bullhocky. They're all the same elfs, they can all be as good or bad at anything that they train to be in!

Balancing between elf books doesnt work. Each book should be balanced within itself, and proven effective and fair for their points versus all the other army books. "wood elfs are better at shooting because they live in the woods and spirits help them and they hug trees and bla bla bla' stop it all ready! Making one unit in one army completely worthless to take because you think it should not be better than one unit in one army that is near worthless is dumb.

Chiungalla
05-01-2011, 16:57
But frankly IMHO you might be taking it to far. Spearmen for 7-8 points? You know that skeletons are 9 points with spears right? Empire spearman are 6 points each with shields, why does high elves have to have cheap core?

Skeletons are far to expensive for what they do. They will most likely, or at least should be, dropped to something like ~5 points with the next upcoming army books. Fear isn't good any more. And they have terrible statlines.

High elves at 8 points with an additional rank of attacks and shields and without ASF can easily come in at 8 points, if you compare them to most other "cheap core infantry of elite armies".

If you want them to be more expensive, they need some fancy special rules. With ASF that allows them to reroll attacks against slower foes there price now is okay, but they are still not a very good bargain.


Like suggested before with a twist, giving archers the choice to fire twice each phase when standing still? Would make them worthwhile, good for initial fire to thin out the enemy, but not overly powerful vs heavy armoured enemies which arrows should not be. Maybe restrict someway.

It would be twice as good vs. everything, including heavy armored units.
With enough arrows, and firing twice longbows can do the job, you will even take down chaos knights. But this would even be more of an issue for other elves. Dark elves would not cheer.

In fact I thought that this would be a good option. But now I'am more into the idea to leave archers with just a point or two price decrease. Why? Because high elves are great in every other phase of the game, why do they need good shooting, too?

They are very good in magic, you can argue about if they are the best, but they are for sure strong. They are ace in close combat if they get there, and they are strong in the movement phase as well.

The only weak spot is that archers, and shooting in general is there weak spot. While I still think that minor point reductions on the shooting units seem to be a good idea, in general I think that high elves should not have a above average shooting phase.

High elves are to good in there strong aspects to make them an all rounder.


Why cant they improve wood elfs then?

Because they would be most likely broken if they improve the shooting.


Quite frankly I dont subscribe to the whole, dark elf should be better at, wood elf should be better at, high elf should be better at bullhocky. They're all the same elfs, they can all be as good or bad at anything that they train to be in!

So the only thing we can do here is to agree that we disagree. At least for me there is no sense in still updating three armies, if all do the same things as well as the others.


Balancing between elf books doesnt work.

It's not so much about balancing, but about keeping the armies distinguishable on the tabletop. If all three elf armies will gain the same strong sides, then there would be no difference in playing those three armies.


Making one unit in one army completely worthless to take because you think it should not be better than one unit in one army that is near worthless is dumb.

Archers are far from worthless, if you know how to use them. They are not your shiny "we win the game all alone"-unit. But they are nearly always worth there points in my games.

Algovil
05-01-2011, 17:47
But still with striking in extra ranks and horde etc etc, making core cheaper brings the balance in favor even more for big units of core infantery, we do not need cheaper core. I see no reason to change spearmen in any way. Though I am open for ideas but please not a pointdrop.

Yes you are right, two arrows would be overpowered but with -1 to hit each? If I did the math right this is what I get compared NEW to this OLD way with -1.

Long range OLD 1 shot: 50%
Long range NEW 2 shots is 44 % chance to hit exactly once, and 11% to hit twice. 56% to hit at least once.
Short range OLD 1 shot: 67%
Short range NEW 2 shots is 50% chance to hit exactly once, and 25% to hit twice. 75% to hit at least once.

Compared to before this is always better, but not by very much. 20 Achers firing at long range would hit 10 arrows before, with this change, they would hit 13.3 arrows. At short range they used to hit 13.3 arrows now they would hit with 20 arrows. Did I do this right? I like to think so. Quite a bit better specially at short range, only one shot when standing and shooting of course. Would this way not be great?

I agree they can not be good at everything, but think about it, if they are expensive pointwise, why can't they be a balanced army in most phases, they are still few and can not take a hit.

Actually changing the to hit table for example: the same WS = 4+, one or to better = 3+, more than two better = 2+, one or two worse = 5+, more than two better = hit on 6. Now strength is of very big importance, greatweaponweilding units everywhere.

LAST BUT NOT LEAST: Wholeheartly agreed on that internally balance is the most important, saying that an army is a close combat army only and still giving them expensive worthless missile troops does not work, instead the balance must become more subtle, worth to take a few missile units for support but not to many, so that balanced armies are the norm. Not taking this to far and making it into rock paper scissors, but IMHO all units should be useful in some way, everyone agree I guess. Small difference between unitchoices makes for more varied army lists IMO. Of course all armies have strong and weak sides the thing is that we do not need to take it to the extreme!

Chiungalla
05-01-2011, 18:14
worth to take a few missile units for support but not to many, so that balanced armies are the norm. Not taking this to far and making it into rock paper scissors, but IMHO all units should be useful in some way, everyone agree I guess.

That is exactly where archers are right now in my opinion.
Always worth to take 1-2 units, they will not win the game, but they will not be worthless if you know how to use them right.

Caitsidhe
05-01-2011, 18:16
That is exactly where archers are right now in my opinion.
Always worth to take 1-2 units, they will not win the game, but they will not be worthless if you know how to use them right.

I agree. I always take one unit of about thirty in rows of ten and sometimes a second unit of twenty in rows of ten.

Foxbat
05-01-2011, 18:47
I am really not sure why so many people are focused on attempting to improve the bow efficiency of the Archers. Sure, back in 7th edition this made sense, but now that we are working with 8th edition rules, focusing on this aspect may not really be all that useful.

Right now, all a HE player can really hope for from their Archer units is that they cut a rank here or there, score lucky wound on a monster/war machine, or thin out light troops before typically being easily beaten in combat. While HE players can improve an Archer unitís combat abilities with magic, Archers tend to be too far down the priority list to really see such support in a consistent manner.

I would suggest that to be an ďeliteĒ army, all HE units should have the appropriate equipment options and associated rules to make them close combat capable. HE Archers with an S3 bows are not, nor should they ever be, a stand in for any war machine and with only a light armour equipment option canít really be made close combat capable. This inability to be a close combat capable unit is where I see Archers having a problem. Giving them Martial Prowess and a shield option would make them capable of being combat capable for players that wish to field such units.

enyoss
05-01-2011, 19:44
Giving them Martial Prowess and a shield option would make them capable of being combat capable for players that wish to field such units.

Isn't that basically the role of sea guard? Archers seem fine to me. They're good for knocking off the odd rank (crucial for eliminating steadfast) and wiping out annoyances like fanatics, fast cavalry and to a lesser extent skirmishers. Even better, they can do all of this (i.e. their specified job) for only 110pts, which comes in handy if you are just under the core requirement (whereas 110pts of spearmen or sea guard would be a complete waste of time).

theunwantedbeing
05-01-2011, 20:31
Being, your suggestion aren't terrible, its just that they don't really adress the H.E problems of not having SoA and actually more than likley compound it with I@C.

You think they don't. That's all.


Things I would bring up with what you present:

What is the differenc betweent the Lion Chariot and the Tiranoic one? Fear, 2 S4 A and a single S6 attack? I would pay 15 extra points for that, and I know alot of the H.E community would as well, however, why would I ever consider taking a Tiranoc chariot again?

What does it matter? They're both part of the same plastic kit.



Archers lowered in points, still wouldn't justify taking them, whether they are 58 points a model, or 9, they still suck.

If I made them 1pt a model, you'de still say they sucked.
Archer's will never live up to your expectations unless you give them some unrealistic and overpowered rule. They have longbows, longbows don't gun down everyone unless you buff them with magic, so guess what you need to do?



Allowing P.G and D.P to take more banners is kind of useless frankly, taking more special banners that require points take away already from the exorbient troop cost we have,
Yeah 13pts a model is exhorbient.
13pt st6 stubborn troops with a 3+ save vs shooting?
13pt st4 in6 troops with a 4+ ward save?
13pt st5 2 attack troops?
Oh yeah, they all re-roll psychology tests and you can take upto 6 units of them in a sub 3k game if you want, no size limit either.
Lots of magical item options too...but yeah, they cost too much.



I like the idea of extra hand weapon, and 15 points a model for S.W, though again they really need something else to make them stick out to actually take.

Like being the only scouts in the army?
You do still get hatred, 2 attacks at in5 makes them stupidly good at taking out war machines.
What else do you actually need?



I@C, would absoultley lame. There is no reason that H.E of all races should suffer from a 'animosity-like' stunt. Hell, for that matter no army should have rules that have detriment towards them unless the rule can pay off mor than it can hurt. I@C dosen't do that. Now if I@C had more/better bonuses possible for a H.E for a army, than yes, I might be on board for a sp. rule that hurts my army, however I@C in its current state really dosen't do that.

Lets make all character's leadership 10 instead, keep I@C though, you'll still find reasons to whinge. That 50pt bonus for killing the general is game changing afterall.
Everyone needs ld10 as well, just incase they start losing a combat and rolling 8's or even 9's...we wouldn't want high elves to ever break from a combat would we?

OldMan
05-01-2011, 21:09
Many interesting things said here, especially by Trains_get_Robbed.
My two cents:

on ASF
I fully agree with Trains, that in game where S and T matters most, we need some other way to make HE unnumerus and elite, while keeping them fragile. ASF is good way to do that. Its no longer so irritating as it was, because now You can get to kill an elf. Before SM were perfectly capable of slaughtering whole units without risking any return blows.

on prices
I think 13 pts is too little. If there have to be a point drop, it should be 14. But I think 15 is about right. We might add dragon armor to PG just to make them that little bit better.

on archers:
i agree they are too weak for their cost now. However i would not allow them to fire twice. This would simply made them identical to DE crossbows. There is another thing we should take into consideration about archers. Curse of arrow atraction. I have felt this on my own skin many times, that those lame archers became scary once HE player manages to get that spell off. On the other hand i doubt many will bother since casting dwellers or purple sun is a much simpler way.



This brings us to magic:
The lore power would be control: High mages control over powers from beyond is so great, that they can achieve perfect harmony among winds of magic Before casting a spell High mage may declare he is casting the spell carefully. If so, in subsequent roll all "6" count as "5", preventing both miscast and irresistable force.

0.Drain magic - as it is but with stronger levels - as somebody said.

1. Curse of arrow attraction (exchange spell) - as it is + stronger version that targets up to 3 unit anywhere within 36" from caster ( it is highly tactical spell, it would be shame to get rid of it)

2. Fortune is fickle 10+. The High Mage gently manipulates sensitive strings of fate and probability. The enemy is suddenly struck with unexplicable burst of misfortune
RIP. When the the spell is in effect, whenever opponent rolls artillery dice, roll a dice. On 4+ the result is a misfire regardless of actual result on artillery dice. In addition whenever opponent rolls "hit" on scatter dice, he have to move marker in direction indicated by the small arrow. (or the "no stone throwers" spell)

3. Valour of Aenarion. Gives stubborn, immunity to terror, fear and panic.

4. Fury of Khaine. Identical to fireball spell.

5. Flames of feniks. Stronger version on 15+ that starts at S5.

6. The uber spell. 18+. Walk Between Worlds.
Wizard, and the unit he is with became Etherall and gain +1M and +1I until caster's next magic phase. Stronger version 23+ . All friendly units within 12" of the caster are affected.

Casting powers are totaly subjective. Each wizard can exchange a spell for curse of arrow attraction so it is possible to base strategy on its use. (archers are back :D)

Foxbat
05-01-2011, 21:47
Isn't that basically the role of sea guard? Archers seem fine to me. They're good for knocking off the odd rank (crucial for eliminating steadfast) and wiping out annoyances like fanatics, fast cavalry and to a lesser extent skirmishers. Even better, they can do all of this (i.e. their specified job) for only 110pts, which comes in handy if you are just under the core requirement (whereas 110pts of spearmen or sea guard would be a complete waste of time).Well right now 10 LSG without shields are the same cost as 10 Archers with LA. So, HE players are already dealing with the fact that LSG and Archers can do the same job.

Giving Archers both Martial Prowess and a Shield option makes the Archer unit one that will shoot for one/two turns and then charge on the second/third turn followed up by 3 fighting ranks with 6+ WS. The LSG on the other hand will shoot for one/two turns and then stand and shoot as they receive a charge on your opponentís turn 2/3 followed up by 4 fighting ranks.

Basically with the changes I proposed the Archers become the offensive missile troops while the LSG are the defensive one.

OldMan
05-01-2011, 21:59
Mind if i ask why archers would be an shoot'n'assault troops? By logic it fits LSG thousand times more. They are ship troops, trained at bording enemy ships/ defending their own.

enyoss
05-01-2011, 23:42
Well right now 10 LSG without shields are the same cost as 10 Archers with LA. So, HE players are already dealing with the fact that LSG and Archers can do the same job.


But that isn't the intended job of sea guard is it, to be taken in units of 10 models with no upgrades? They're not even as effective as the archers either, as they are exactly the same in combat but have reduced range on their bows. You'd have to be pretty silly to take 10 bog standard sea guard over 10 archers (no need for the light armour really, so you can save 10 more points too), especially if you were just looking to fill core requirements.

My point is that yes, at the moment they can perform similar jobs, but you wouldn't bother doing it because it's self-defeating: the unit designed to shoot, not fight and be cheap is, no surprise, better at those things than a unit which is not designed for that purpose. Giving archers extra armour and/or shields and special rules seem specifically designed to move them from the role they perform now and into the role sea guard are designed to fill (i.e. mid-size versatile unit), which seems like a bit of a waste of time.

Trains_Get_Robbed
05-01-2011, 23:46
You think they don't. That's all.

Really just me? SO your saying that giving them Intrigue at the court instead of SoA solves the problem, of SoA? If not that than what?

I@C dosen't solve the problem of making elfs killy/suriviable/decent without SoA though. It is a neat fluffy rule that I personally wouldn't despise, however that really isn't keeping with the meta of the army taking away a passive positive bonus for an active bonus that can be either positive or detremential, still leaves elves in cold. The reroll all failed Psychology tests, would be cool. That and perhaps martial prowness on every unit (yes every unit).

If I made them 1pt a model, you'de still say they sucked.
Archer's will never live up to your expectations unless you give them some unrealistic and overpowered rule. They have longbows, longbows don't gun down everyone unless you buff them with magic, so guess what you need to do?

Actually at 1 point, or even 7 points I would love taking archers. However, 11 points just dosen't justify their existance when for the same price of 9 of them you can get a RBT (ovepriced as well) which has yes less shots, however more range, strength and can shoot a Tree Trunk.

If G.W dropped them to 9 points, and gave them A.P, or double shot with no Long Range or Double Shot penalty when not moving (only for front rank) at 8 points, they would see a place in my army. As of now, however they do not.

Yeah 13pts a model is exhorbient.
13pt st6 stubborn troops with a 3+ save vs shooting?
13pt st4 in6 troops with a 4+ ward save?
13pt st5 2 attack troops?
Oh yeah, they all re-roll psychology tests and you can take upto 6 units of them in a sub 3k game if you want, no size limit either.
Lots of magical item options too...but yeah, they cost too much.

13 points a model isn't exhorbinient, its acutally perfectly priced for what they do. Thats my bad. :p However, I was considering (for some odd reason I don't know why) was thinking of them at 15 points that they are currently at.

Its not bad idea giving them options to take banners and such on the P.G, (having the option is nice) though I don't I wouldn't consider banners as in an elite army having as many bodies as I can field is better than extra banner most times, which is what I was trying to say orginally.

Like being the only scouts in the army?
You do still get hatred, 2 attacks at in5 makes them stupidly good at taking out war machines.
What else do you actually need?

Something more than S3? Or a +5 A.S? They have 1 wound each, can't charge the first turn and without a Waywatcher-like bonus could easliy picked out.

S3 can kill a Empire Crew, or Peasants, anything else, why not just invest in its stead a single Noble with Shadow armor and gain a better save, strength and a better bow and perform the same task? If S.W had posioned bows or A.P bows, something that makes their shooting at least viable, then I could care less about points and or special/rare slot even if they were 20.


Lets make all character's leadership 10 instead, keep I@C though, you'll still find reasons to whinge. That 50pt bonus for killing the general is game changing afterall.

Everyone needs ld10 as well, just incase they start losing a combat and rolling 8's or even 9's...we wouldn't want high elves to ever break from a combat would we?

Someone is mocking me. :rolleyes: How ironic, that I'm presenting ideas that solve whining *cough Teclis and BoH*(like others), ideas that others can critque, yet I'm being accused of whining about my H.E. I'm sorry I'm taking a solid, realistic approach towards your and others ideas? :eyebrows:

Frankly, my suggestions, and critques are taking in to account a A METAGAME ARMY CREEP. By the time H.E actually get done, it could be very well into 2013 and a year until 9th ed. :eek: In between that time, G.W will have done what 6 book On their new release schedule? Ogres, T.K, W.E, OnG, Brets, Dwarves all could/will be done in between there, and their points costs and units also justified and reevaulated.

For example, to actually represent W.E Glade Guards prowness, giving them S4 all the time and at short range with double shot with no penalties for moving and shooting, as well as long range. Or instead of perhaps not move penalties and A.P all the time, and K.B at short range. Is realistic to represent their fluff and help compensate for 2 point slave model 'atrocities' in other books ;) at roughly 9/10 points a model.

Perhaps another example? T.K core skeletons with +4 A.S (HW,S /Sp,S) W.S 4, T3, I4. at 6/7 points a model with march, and fear? If a King or Prince is in the unit, a -1 LD is enacted for the fear test penalty? Also, takes -1 less crumble. Something along those lines.

Just to give an idea, where I (personally) see the meta game of Warhammer is going. Not only will raising the average point size of games, but as well as lowering the point cost of the models themselves, sells more models for G.W. :angel:


This is my ten charcters. Response is in grey.

Trains_Get_Robbed
06-01-2011, 00:11
This is awesome:

OldMan came up clutch!
1. Curse of arrow attraction (exchange spell) - as it is + stronger version that targets up to 3 unit anywhere within 36" from caster ( it is highly tactical spell, it would be shame to get rid of it)

2. Fortune is fickle 10+. The High Mage gently manipulates sensitive strings of fate and probability. The enemy is suddenly struck with unexplicable burst of misfortune
RIP. When the the spell is in effect, whenever opponent rolls artillery dice, roll a dice. On 4+ the result is a misfire regardless of actual result on artillery dice. In addition whenever opponent rolls "hit" on scatter dice, he have to move marker in direction indicated by the small arrow. (or the "no stone throwers" spell)

3. Valour of Aenarion. Gives stubborn, immunity to terror, fear and panic.

4. Fury of Khaine. Identical to fireball spell.

5. Flames of feniks. Stronger version on 15+ that starts at S5.

6. The uber spell. 18+. Walk Between Words.
Wizard, and the unit he is with became Etherall and gain +1M and +1I until caster's next magic phase. Stronger version 23+ . All friendly units within 12" of the caster are affected.

I think this is along the likes of H.E magic lore, perhaps a few twists too spells, like Shield of Saph. (I love this spell, and will take this over anything in the list save for FoP, when I play) perhaps make Walk between Worlds a Sig spell like 13th, too make room for S.S? Although, S.S dosen't have to be included, thats just me speaking.

Perhaps the spell can only, A.M can take sub out? Perhaps instead of I5 and M5 (we already have high I and M) make it +1 S and +1 T? Or instead, it gives the unit a +3 Ward save for the turn in addition to Ethereal.

OOOOHH, it gives Ethereal, and allows the unit to make a charge/move anywhere on the board in any facing, even if they are already engaged in combat? I don't know, but I like the basic spell, the name and idea behind it.

"In my opinion HE should be an Elite army. An army that excels in whichever it chooses to do, but punishes the mistakes of a general who is not mindful of the precious Ulthuanite lives of his sholdiers..."

I agree here. Tactical mistakes and elitist snobism should be reflected in tactics whether thats through general mistakes or good rolling from a opponet. Ever troop's death should feel like Ulthaun is erasing the Population of Ulthaun sign and re-markering it with a new number. :P

I doubt they would make H.E underpowered, only because they are 1/7 iconic races that people associate with fantasy stereotype, and G.W promotes within its games it seems. More than likley, we would end up with a book with simpilitic "Do this and this to have fun and be competetive, most other bulids will be handing the game to your opponet." :(

Sorry for double post.

Foxbat
06-01-2011, 01:13
Mind if i ask why archers would be an shoot'n'assault troops? By logic it fits LSG thousand times more. They are ship troops, trained at bording enemy ships/ defending their own.Fits thousands of times more with LSG? Really?

I would expect that a Spear unit receiving and hopefully holding an enemy unit so that itís supporting Archer unit can get a counter flank charge in would be practiced thousands of times more often across Ulthuan than LSG units providing a counter flank charge for a Spear unit. If anything, an LSG unit completing a supporting charge of another LSG unit should be the norm for these units.

Kellindel
06-01-2011, 03:02
I'd like to see teclis smacked with the nerf bat, the book of hoeth removed or toned down- maybe 50 points and double 5 or 6 is IF instead of everything?

Like all armies I want their cavalry to be usable again- make helms core, cheaper and shields included, and make reavers come with bows or reduce the base price by three points. I also thought it would be cool and fluffy if they could fire their bows while charging.



I have to agree on these points here. I used the Book this past week against a Bret army. For three rounds the other guy couldn't dispel anything in the magic phase. I don't think I'll be taking it again.

I used Reavers and Shadow Warriors. Don't know why people don't like the Shadow Warriors, they worked better than the Reavers.

Pariah-Miniatures
06-01-2011, 08:20
I would really like to see HE get something similar to the DE CoB, and get another rare choice, maybe something like a mage construct similar to HORDES megalith: http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/circle-orboros/warbeasts/megalith minus the wood though.

gambler@
06-01-2011, 09:52
to all those that wish to see teclis/book of hoeth/asf/rerolls disapear,
come on get real. you guys obviously are playing against HE and do not like the four main ways HE can still use to win.
its like saying to chaos warriors remove archaon, remove chaos armour etc.
each army has its own powerful areas, do not ruin that simply because you dont like it.

Reimu
06-01-2011, 11:24
Keep ASF and rerolls.

Destroy Book of Hoeth.

Teclis could swing either way. He is supposed to be the best mage ever...

Chiungalla
06-01-2011, 11:32
to all those that wish to see teclis/book of hoeth/asf/rerolls disapear,
come on get real. you guys obviously are playing against HE and do not like the four main ways HE can still use to win.
its like saying to chaos warriors remove archaon, remove chaos armour etc.
each army has its own powerful areas, do not ruin that simply because you dont like it.

You are obviously false. Many high elf players stated that they want this items/choices/rules to be removed/nerfed.

Teclis and the book of hoeth are broken. It's no fun to win with either one of those two choices. I want to win because I'am the better player, not because I have the cheesiest special character/item.

And although I know that ASF isn't a auto-win for high elves, it's a major problem for many other armies. In 7th edition is was a good way to deal with the problems of 7th edition, which are now gone.

It would be better to find another special rule, that can make them as elite, without the many problems that ASF cause today.

monkeydrum
06-01-2011, 13:49
Just a few ideas I would like to see

Keep Asf and rerolls it makes us competitive others wise the cost of all foot units would have to come down and HE would no longer be an elite army.
He have lots and lots of special but few rare we definitely need new rare choices, and a new war machine:
How about a short range ballistae type weapon that fires short range multiple bolts maybe ten or 2D6 bolts at s4 only 12 or 18 range and then change bolt throwers to s7 and 4 strength 5 shots.
Maiden Guard defiantly deserve a come back and can go in as a rare slot but would be more like war dancers than the old rules for them.
I would like shadow warriors armed with two hand weapons and longbows, and get ride of there hatred rule, and see there points come down.
For are core I would reduces archers points by one, and give spearmen heavy armour and LSG longbows.
Silver helm should have shields as standards but lose barding as standard and make it an option, and should get magic banners but limited 25 points, weather they move to core I am not sure I havenít seen a compelling argument for that and sit on the fence as I can still remember when all you saw as core, was silver helms and that just didnít feel right. Although the idea that they can have first among equals rule and if they get the banner they would count as core is quite a good idea.;)
Sword masters should gets some sort of dodge save I think 5+ ward.
I quite like are magic the only spells I think need a little tweak would be have fury of khaine have second level say 16+ and get increased strength to 5 and ignores armour save. Also how about a second level for shield of saphery either 4+ ward or all units in 12 inches for 10+ cast
How about drain magic steal power dice instead of how it currently works say takes 1 dice at cast 5+ 2 at 8+ 3 at 11+ and 4 at 14+ :)

Lastly for today any way donít touch Teclis or the book of Hoeth as they both work and every army has they cheese so why not us, I personnel donít use SCís and never will and donít use book of Hoeth but it is a personnel choice if you want to be dull take them if you want to have real fun drop them. They work as part of are fluff so why change them the only think they gets me with Teclis is the sword WHY I donít get it think its point less.:eyebrows::confused:

Chiungalla
06-01-2011, 14:27
Keep Asf and rerolls it makes us competitive others wise the cost of all foot units would have to come down and HE would no longer be an elite army.

Or there would be another special rule that is as good and gets less flak.
I would go with a army wide ward save, but demons have that one already.

OldMan
06-01-2011, 14:45
This is awesome:

OldMan came up clutch!
1. Curse of arrow attraction (exchange spell) - as it is + stronger version that targets up to 3 unit anywhere within 36" from caster ( it is highly tactical spell, it would be shame to get rid of it)

2. Fortune is fickle 10+. The High Mage gently manipulates sensitive strings of fate and probability. The enemy is suddenly struck with unexplicable burst of misfortune
RIP. When the the spell is in effect, whenever opponent rolls artillery dice, roll a dice. On 4+ the result is a misfire regardless of actual result on artillery dice. In addition whenever opponent rolls "hit" on scatter dice, he have to move marker in direction indicated by the small arrow. (or the "no stone throwers" spell)

3. Valour of Aenarion. Gives stubborn, immunity to terror, fear and panic.

4. Fury of Khaine. Identical to fireball spell.

5. Flames of feniks. Stronger version on 15+ that starts at S5.

6. The uber spell. 18+. Walk Between Worlds.
Wizard, and the unit he is with became Etherall and gain +1M and +1I until caster's next magic phase. Stronger version 23+ . All friendly units within 12" of the caster are affected.

I think this is along the likes of H.E magic lore, perhaps a few twists too spells, like Shield of Saph. (I love this spell, and will take this over anything in the list save for FoP, when I play) perhaps make Walk between Worlds a Sig spell like 13th, too make room for S.S? Although, S.S dosen't have to be included, thats just me speaking.

Perhaps the spell can only, A.M can take sub out? Perhaps instead of I5 and M5 (we already have high I and M) make it +1 S and +1 T? Or instead, it gives the unit a +3 Ward save for the turn in addition to Ethereal.

OOOOHH, it gives Ethereal, and allows the unit to make a charge/move anywhere on the board in any facing, even if they are already engaged in combat? I don't know, but I like the basic spell, the name and idea behind it.

Sorry for double post.

To be honest after a fresh look at the spells, I think they aren't so good. Fortune if fickle would be night useless, as its primary goal is to shut down war machines, but since shooting is after magic, any half wited opponent will just dispell it in his turn.

On the Walk beteewn Worlds. I am afraid it would be too powerfull. Imagine HE turn one against dwarfs. 3 blocks of elite elfs surge forward at full speed. Behind the middle one is archmage with scroll of power. He casts bigger version, making all 3 units ethereal, and faster. Dwarf player i dead now. Unless he has runes on machines, he cant shoot the elfs. If he countercharge, ethereal troops will be taking no damage. And next turn before spell will end the HE thanks to +1M will hit dwarfs line unscrached.
I wanted an uber spell, but i don't know if this isn't too uber.

so let's wait untill i came up wheel :)

+1M and +I is because the troops aren't hindred by terrain, their weapons, armor, or even their bodies. I don't know how wouldyou explain boost in S and T, and ward ssave would be definetaly OTT. To be honest i don't know if it isn't OTT with boost in movement and initiative. I was thorned between removing shield of Saphery and Valour of Aenarion, but since i wanted the ultimate spell to be ultimately protective, i thought there is no need for another one of this kind, but weaker.

Ethereal does what says in BRB and is very powerfull arleady. There is no need to make unit with this spell 7th ed skirmishers, or allow them to leave combat on will. :)

As for Book of Hoeth. Mayby it should provide user with knowledge of every spell in armybook and in rulebook? Same price.

monkeydrum
06-01-2011, 15:23
Or there would be another special rule that is as good and gets less flak.
I would go with a army wide ward save, but demons have that one already.

why a ward save that wouldn't really fit in with are fluff and what rule do you suppose would get less flak any rule that makes us as competitive as ours does is going to get flak
asf with rerolls is good and makes us competitive with out being overpowered, and fits in nicely with highly trained elite army composed of a race with highly developed reflex's and centuries of life to learn. rather a than rabble of semi trained professionals :)

gambler@
06-01-2011, 15:33
You are obviously false. Many high elf players stated that they want this items/choices/rules to be removed/nerfed.

Teclis and the book of hoeth are broken. It's no fun to win with either one of those two choices. I want to win because I'am the better player, not because I have the cheesiest special character/item.

And although I know that ASF isn't a auto-win for high elves, it's a major problem for many other armies. In 7th edition is was a good way to deal with the problems of 7th edition, which are now gone.

It would be better to find another special rule, that can make them as elite, without the many problems that ASF cause today.

the HE players have the choice not to take them (i dont use teclis or the book but that doesnt mean i dont like them) i dont see why they are complaining. having teclis and the book does not mean you are going to win!!!!
teclis is quite easy to die really. he will not last a round of combat, no matter in what unit he is.

Trains_Get_Robbed
06-01-2011, 16:02
OldMan:

"+1M and +I is because the troops aren't hindred by terrain, their weapons, armor, or even their bodies. I don't know how wouldyou explain boost in S and T, and ward ssave would be definetaly OTT. To be honest i don't know if it isn't OTT with boost in movement and initiative. I was thorned between removing shield of Saphery and Valour of Aenarion, but since i wanted the ultimate spell to be ultimately protective, i thought there is no need for another one of this kind, but weaker."

No, I was saying +t or +s instead of +i or +m. That could be very O.P after haveing a second look in retrospect. Perhaps just a single unit can be effected by it and grants the unit either Ethereal or +3 Ward? The players choice?

Trains_Get_Robbed
06-01-2011, 16:07
the HE players have the choice not to take them (i dont use teclis or the book but that doesnt mean i dont like them) i dont see why they are complaining. having teclis and the book does not mean you are going to win!!!!
teclis is quite easy to die really. he will not last a round of combat, no matter in what unit he is.

^^^ True that, I have yet to strut the BoH, and have taken Teclis once this ed. and that was only because we we're playing a huge 15K game aside at my local G.W and I need to generate my own P.D, as the altered P.D pool rules we used gave me still only like 1 or 2.

Regardless, I still haven't lost outside battle royales with my H.E :shifty: and I'm more than a handful of games in.

BoH and Teclis can be a crutch a good amount of the time, however if the doubles thing is eliminated (which would probably not be) one owuld think D.Scrolls would be too. Auto dispelling anyone?

Korraz
06-01-2011, 16:09
the HE players have the choice not to take them (i dont use teclis or the book but that doesnt mean i dont like them) i dont see why they are complaining. having teclis and the book does not mean you are going to win!!!!
teclis is quite easy to die really. he will not last a round of combat, no matter in what unit he is.

PG with 2 nobles. Good luck in close combat.

Chiungalla
06-01-2011, 16:10
why a ward save that wouldn't really fit in with are fluff

Even the name does not have to change. They are so fast, that they can dodge both arrows and blades. Ward save explained fluffwise.


asf with rerolls is good and makes us competitive with out being overpowered

It's good for the high elf players, but it is in my opinion not good for the game in total. That's my opinion. You are, of cause entitled to another opinion.


the HE players have the choice not to take them (i dont use teclis or the book but that doesnt mean i dont like them) i dont see why they are complaining. having teclis and the book does not mean you are going to win!!!!
teclis is quite easy to die really. he will not last a round of combat, no matter in what unit he is.

We are complaining because we want a fair and balanced army book, no cheese, but still hard. This is on top of my personal wishlist, for every single army book.

But I have no problem with Teclis and the Book of Hoeth after all. No one plays with special characters around here, and the Book is forbitten on nearly every tournament around here, too.

OldMan
06-01-2011, 16:23
OldMan:

"+1M and +I is because the troops aren't hindred by terrain, their weapons, armor, or even their bodies. I don't know how wouldyou explain boost in S and T, and ward ssave would be definetaly OTT. To be honest i don't know if it isn't OTT with boost in movement and initiative. I was thorned between removing shield of Saphery and Valour of Aenarion, but since i wanted the ultimate spell to be ultimately protective, i thought there is no need for another one of this kind, but weaker."

No, I was saying +t or +s instead of +i or +m. That could be very O.P after haveing a second look in retrospect. Perhaps just a single unit can be effected by it and grants the unit either Ethereal or +3 Ward? The players choice?

Thats how i understood you. There is no way to explain fluff wise why becaming a ghost will boost strengh and T.
I think after some consideration, that the spell should be just ethereal, and its stronger version should affect d3 units. After all it makes troops pretty much safe from any harm.
i am not found of ward save idea. If added to ethereal, it would be overpowered - not only i can't kill you with non-magical things, but they also got ward against magic.
And just ward seems too little for final spell.

Kal Taron
06-01-2011, 21:56
How about using WS/BS instead of S for armour save modifier as an army-wide special rule?

OldMan
06-01-2011, 22:23
Interesting. Mayby not as army-wide, for there would be a lot absurd situation, like White Lion putting his axe stright into chaos warrior's or grail knight's visier. Same for swordmasters swords, PG's helberd. Actually it wakes sense only for archers and spearelf, but they can just have AP rule. Same for PG (5 vs 4 from helbard). Edit: Swormaster too could just have armor piercing - 6 WS vs 5 S

Uhm not a good idea after all. But mayby as rule for reintroduced maidenguard?

druchii7
06-01-2011, 22:32
How about using WS/BS instead of S for armour save modifier as an army-wide special rule?

I LIKE this very very much. it's not a so broken rule, fits the army concept and would let powerful characters. however it would need a few additional changes.

I've always thought that elves slould be shooty armies and dwarves should be CC like armies but they are the opposite

Malorian
06-01-2011, 22:35
All I want is plastic white lions... is that too much to ask...

Korraz
07-01-2011, 00:05
How about using WS/BS instead of S for armour save modifier as an army-wide special rule?

This man is a genius! Buy him some cookies of his choice!


All I want is plastic white lions... is that too much to ask...

You are being sarcastic, right? (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod900165a&rootCatGameStyle=)

Drasanil
07-01-2011, 01:52
I keep hearing we have to keep SoA or else Asur will have cheaper troops and won't be an elite army any more, this is quite frankly a fallacy, you could easily remove SoA and reduce the cost of units a bit and/or implement a different army wide rule and keep the "eliteness" of the army. Asur are elite, but you have to ask yourself elite compared to what? Compared to your bog standard humans that's what.

They're supposed to be on par with dwarves and dark elves actually supposed to be "more elite" on an individual level while the asur are more disciplined, not to mention Chaos Warriors and Deamons are supposed to be even more elite, a case could even be made for Saurus being "more elite" since their only purpose is to fight.

High Elves have an excellent and fairly extensive citizen army (ie: Spearmen, Archers and Silver Helms) supported by a few more elite troops. SoA is a bad rule because most of Ulthuans armies are weekend warriors and yes while they are good enough to put professional human soldiers to shame they shouldn't have rules that make heroes and other similarily or more "elite" troops look like dolts which is basically what SoA does. Not to mention from a lore point of view it's even sillier when you think about it, why is a hundred year old archer faster than a Dreadlord, or a Chaos Lord or a Bloodthirster for that matter?

--- --- ---

Any ways, now that I got that out of my system here is what I would change.

-Ditch the current SoA (didn't see that coming did you;)), with I5 High Elves will be going first most of the time any ways. Have it give them a 6+ Parry/Ward in close combat (5+ with sword & board) to reflect their discipline and training. This will also help cement some difference between Asur and Druchii, Asur should play more defensively while Druchii should play more offensively.

-Change Valour of Ages to "High Elves may re-roll all failed panic tests." and have it apply against every one not just Dark Elves. Gives them a general elite feel and reflects their arrogance in that they generally don't consider lesser races to be a "proper threat".

-No screwing with the special/rare limits.

-No Intrigue at the Court, yes it reflects the High Elves’ political bent, how ever given the scope of the battles in Warhammer most armies would likely comprise of a Prince’s personal troops and he’s not likely to tolerate someone telling him he can’t command them.

-Teclis, keep the points as is, remove the IR rules simply make him immune to miscast and maybe give him a 4+ or 5+ ward save.


Core Troops

-Archers drop to 9 points come with Light Armour Standard and can upgrade to Heavy Armour for 1 point.

-Spearmen drop them to 8 points standard, 9 with Heavy Armour.

-Sea Guard 11 points with shields, no heavy armor options they're the elven equivilant of marines they shouldn't be running around in heavy armour.

-Silver Helms moved back to core. 18 points standard with Heavy Armour, Shield & Lance, may buy barding for +2 points per model.

-All core units can buy 25 points worth of magic standards, not just one.

This allows High Elves to field slightly larger units to compensate for the shift in focus for the edition while still maintain the elite feel of the army. The Heavy Armour options combined with the previously mentioned Parry rule also gives them more survivability by reflecting their comparative wealth, access to resources and training.


Special Troops

-Swordmasters, drop down to 13 points and have normal ASF, so they can strike in I order when using great weapons.

-White Lions drop down to 14 points, to compensate for the loss of SoA give them a body guard rule like say: “If the general and/or BSB are in the unit they automatically pass all normal Look out Sir rolls, in addition they receive a special 4+ Look out Sir save in close combat.”

-Dragon Princes, keep them as is (they shouldn’t get S4 if CoKs don’t get two attacks :p ) make them 25 points a pop, and let them buy magic banners worth up to 75 points to reflect Caledor’s “old money” and connection to the Anvil of Vaul.

-Reavers, 17 points bows included and let them buy shields for +2 points per models.

-Shadow Warriors drop to 13 points apiece with the option to buy either an additional Close Combat Weapon or Shield for 2 points.

-Tiranoc Chariots drop down to 75 points per model, you may buy up to three as a single special choice.

-Lion Chariot as is.


Rares

-Move Phoenix Guard here, keep them exactly as is, ASF, Ward and all. Give them the option to buy magic banners up to 75 points.

-RBTs 2-for-1 rare, drop down to 75 points apiece.

-Remove Great Eagles, honestly they don’t really cut it anymore as independent monsters and beefing them up is a bit much, they should simply be character mounts.

-Bring back the 6th edition Dragon Riders from the War of the Beard list exactly as is, but make them 1 for 1 rare choices as opposed to 3 for 1.


High Magic

-Kill the Book of Heoth or make it 50 points for 1 turn only.

-Allow High Mages to have duplicate High Magic spells between them.

-For the High Magic "Lore Perk" let the mage choose any one of the eight colour magic perks and have it apply to High Magic for the battle. High Mages are supposed to be masters of all eight winds of magic and this would help reflect this.

-Bring back some of the old 5th ed stuff so say:

0) Drain Magic as is, but known by all mages whether they use High Magic or a Colour Lore.

1) Shield of Saphery keep as is 7+ to cast, 12+ to cast affects all friendlies with in 18".

2) Curse of Arrow Attraction as is 8+ to cast, 14+ affects all units with in 6" of the target.

3) Hand of Glory 10+ to cast, remains in play, all units with 12" of the mage become unbreakable, all fleeing units with 12" of the mage automatically rally.

4) Apotheosis, 11+ to cast, remains in play, a single slain character is brought back to life with in 6" of the mage with all equipment and spells and mount if any (unless it has a seperate profile, like a dragon or gryphon).

5) Flames of the Pheonix, 12+ to cast, starts at Strength 4.

6) The Tempest, 16+ to cast, remains in play, enemy units must take an LD test to move, all flying is impossible, all shooting is at -2 to hit. Nominate D3 enemy units when the spell is cast, and in each of your following magic phases, each unit takes D6 Strength 5 hits.

Brewmaster_D
07-01-2011, 04:10
Hey Team, long time reader, first time poster.

I've read several times on this thread, and in many threads elsewhere on this forum about ASF, and how silly an idea it is to make it a blanket rule for an army. I agree, but to an extent.

In order to fully appreciate the issue at hand, you need to look at the high elves in context of the rest of the armies. High Elves are the close combat heavy hitters among the order side armies. They should absolutely hit like freight trains, bearing in mind in many cases we're paying 15+ points for a model that dies easier than a 6 point swordsman. They cause damage in close combat, but they also pay the price for that; they're expensive and they die just as easy as anyone.

Having said that, should a rank and file high elf be able to pummel another army's lord without said lord even being able to attack back? No, that doesn't make sense. Surely the most elite of other races should at least be able to fight them on even terms.

I highly doubt anybody would be bothered by ASF vs. their cheapest troops. The issue at hand is ASF vs. elite troops and characters.

So how do you retain the feel and viability of high elves, but tone down their effectiveness versus only certain, elite things? Like other people have said, if you remove ASF, you need to give them something else. Otherwise they move out of their niche.

I personally would get rid of ASF, but keep in effect that they ignore ASL. Then I would put in place a rule that says that High Elves treat their to hit rolls like to wound rolls when the weapon skill of the opponent is below theirs. So for example, swordmasters (WS6) would hit other basic elves (WS4) on a 2, but they would hit chaos warriors (WS5) on 3's. This effectively tones them down versus opponents of similar skill level, but gives them an accuracy advantage against lower skilled opponents.

But hey, I don't design games so take it for what it's worth!

Trains_Get_Robbed
07-01-2011, 08:57
:D
Compared to your bog standard humans that's what.

They're supposed to be on par with dwarves and dark elves actually supposed to be "more elite" on an individual level while the asur are more disciplined, not to mention Chaos Warriors and Deamons are supposed to be even more elite, a case could even be made for Saurus being "more elite" since their only purpose is to fight.


^^^ Imo, only to humans? Hmm, last I checked H.E fluff, civilians battle(d) neigh "unstoppable" and "unlimiting" waves of demons to a stand-still and then defeated them. To most races, not just humans.

Their elites 'wiped' the floor 'offensivley' in both fluff and represented currently in game well, too well. If you were to institute some of your changes, for example ASL W.L, no one would pick them as a unit, beacuse half of their +5 A.S troop, T3 model would die before they get to strike leaving in an average sized unit of 20 with a few stranded survivors making their attacks back (only to be massacred in later combat turns.

Regardless, just becasue something is meant to 'fight' dosen't mean it should be better. Should H.E be the smartest then of all the races? Should they know every tactic and recieve some sort of army bonus to represent that? Perhaps if one wants to this route. Again, I digress though, just because an army is played a certain way, dosen't mean it should match the fluff or vice versa -keep that in mind H.E aren't always defensive and D.E always offensive.

I do agree with you on the 'Elite' status of the army and the SoA, against armies in general. H.E (elves in general) represent this already in game by striking before things with their high I vaule, there really is no reason a measly archer should hit a Chaos Lord first.

I also find it funny that few people B * tch about H.E and their rerolls, when D.E essentially have the samething and are even cheaper to offset not having rerolls all the time AGAINST EVERYTHING and have a hydra? Just as many if not more broken things about them. :wtf:

There should just be a hate thread agaisnt all elves :D

Malorian
07-01-2011, 13:31
You are being sarcastic, right? (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod900165a&rootCatGameStyle=)

:eek:

Dear god... I thought only the dragon princes and the phoenix guard got new plastics...

The main thing holding me back from starting HE for years was the fact that white lions weren't plastic yet...

Now I can't wait for my bonus to come in April :D

logan054
07-01-2011, 13:41
White Lions to go back to striking last and their weapons do d3 wounds again

Why not just give them KB, other than that remove ASF, reduce points cost of units to compensate for lose of ASF, bring back the -1 to hit for shooting for SM. If he had to keep ASF them don't allow the rerolls for great weapons, its just stupid.

Drasanil
07-01-2011, 17:31
:D

^^^ Imo, only to humans? Hmm, last I checked H.E fluff, civilians battle(d) neigh "unstoppable" and "unlimiting" waves of demons to a stand-still and then defeated them. To most races, not just humans.

Said civilians militias didn't exist untill much much later, they were instituted under Mentheus of Caledor or Morvellion (IIRC), which happened after the War of the Beard. Secondly, said civilians you mentioned, who actually fought against the deamons, were getting their arses handed to them left right and center and spent the better part of their time running or hiding, with the only hold outs being the province of Caledor because it had a crap tonne of dragons, until Aenarion came along and even then most of the heavy lifting was done by Aenarion, his princes with uber artifacts of doom, dragons riders and Nagarythe's army (ie: dark elves, not high elves:p).


Their elites 'wiped' the floor 'offensivley' in both fluff and represented currently in game well, too well. If you were to institute some of your changes, for example ASL W.L, no one would pick them as a unit, beacuse half of their +5 A.S troop, T3 model would die before they get to strike leaving in an average sized unit of 20 with a few stranded survivors making their attacks back (only to be massacred in later combat turns.

That's why I proposed a bodyguard style rule for the WL in the second part of my posts, a 4+ look out sir roll in CC for BSBs and Generals is pretty awesome. Also WL used to be strike last in just about every edition prior to this one yet people still used them.


I also find it funny that few people B * tch about H.E and their rerolls, when D.E essentially have the samething and are even cheaper to offset not having rerolls all the time AGAINST EVERYTHING and have a hydra? Just as many if not more broken things about them.

Dark Elves get re-rolls in the first turn only and against High Elves all the time, High Elves get re-rolls against 90% of everything all the time... it's a pretty big difference and high elves have a Star Dragon so your hydra argument is invalid. ASF was a lazy fix for a self-made problem back in 7th and now it's an even more ridiculous fix for an even bigger self-made problem in 8th ed.

Korraz
07-01-2011, 19:24
And, by the way, I was always bitching about DE Hatred. It was one of the mainpoints that made the army so OP.
But this is a HE thread, so I bitch about SoA.

Drasanil
07-01-2011, 21:01
And, by the way, I was always bitching about DE Hatred. It was one of the mainpoints that made the army so OP.
But this is a HE thread, so I bitch about SoA.

I've alwys thought it was a stupid rule, druchii only despise asur enough to care, the rest they view as playthings not worth the effort of hating, as it only validates said playthings' existance. Unfortunately it was pretty much introduced as a response to High Elves getting SoA, which more or less spawned a special rules arms race.

Chiungalla
08-01-2011, 07:48
I would love SoA to no longer give ASF but maybe an armywide swiftstride rule and a 6+ (dodge) ward save against close combat and shooting (not magic though) that stacks with other ward saves.

- If you actually break those unlimited overwhelming numbers of steadfast troops, you deserve to get them. Elves are faster on foot, and high elves have tons of discipline.
- It will give them few additional inches of charge range.
- It will make charging with high elves more reliable, since the chances for extreme bad results will get very much lower. This could fluffwise be because of there discipline advantage.
- And it will somehow compensate for the little use for steadfast, because we will nearly always be outnumbered. We may loose close combat and run more often, but at least we will get away.

- The ward save part will help with our toughness issues and the overall weak armor.

Swordmasters should return to always strike in initiative order.

Foxbat
08-01-2011, 13:32
After thinking about it a bit more and if given the opportunity to speak directly to GWís game designers, I would suggest that they consider the following:

Army Wide Rules: No changes

Unit Revisions (unless noted, no change to current costs):
- Archers: gain Martial Prowess and get a shield equipment option;
- SW: gain Martial Prowess & special rule giving them a 6+ WS vs. any wound;
- SH: Optional barding, up to a 25 pt magic Banner, & unit champ with up to 15 pts of magic items;
- Reavers: Moved to Core with champ: 10 pts, standard bearer: 10 pts, musician: 5 pts;
- RBT Crew: Get shields and +1 To Hit provided the machine is not wounded;
- T-Chariot: Crew get shields;

Revisions to Character equipment options:
- In addition to Korhil, all non-special Characters can take a Lion Chariot; and
- Nobles and Mages can take a Griffon (alternatively, just allow the armyís BSB to ride one).

Revisions to Magic Items:
- Book of Hoeth : model & unit protected against first Miscast effect per Magic Phase (55 pts);
- New magic items that are interesting and fun to use

Character Point Revisions:
- Archmege: 30 pt cost reduction
- Mage: 15 point cost reduction
- Prince: 20 pt cost reduction
- Noble: 10 pt cost reduction

Lore of High Magic:
- revised to include interesting spells that compliment a HE armyís combat needs

I would prefer to see a character cost reduction rather than a per model cost reduction for the units as reducing the cost of the rank and file models could result in further unintended issues. For example, a typical 2500 pt HE army under 8th edition rules would see somewhere around 50 pts freed up with a character cost reduction as compared to around 110 pts for an across the board single point cost reduction for units.

And as a final comment, given how much I enjoy 8th edition over any of the editions I played before it (I started in late 3rd edition), I have great confidence in GWís designers coming out with a fun to play and yet competitive High Elf Army Book within the 8th edition (or even 9th edition) rule set, whenever it arrives.

b4z
08-01-2011, 18:12
and high elves have a Star Dragon so your hydra argument is invalid.

Lol this is the most ridiculous statement i've seen for a while.

One requires a Prince [Lord Choice] and then the Star Dragon itself [which is over double the cost of 2 Hydras on its own] and is a minimum total of 520 pts which can only be taken in 2100pt games upward.

The other is a Rare choice which can be taken in multiples from 1400pt games upward and is 1/3 of the total points cost of the above. And is generally agreed to be grossly undercosted for its stats/abilities.

Trains_Get_Robbed
09-01-2011, 00:04
^^^ Imo, I gave up on conversating/anaylzing one another suggestions after seeing that and historical errors (unless stated differently in different A.B).

Hydra > Star Dragon x5. End story.

Drasanil
09-01-2011, 04:56
^^^ Imo, I gave up on conversating/anaylzing one another suggestions after seeing that and historical errors (unless stated differently in different A.B).

Current High Elf AB page 28, third paragraph. Morvael instituted the citizen levies. I got the name wrong, although I was right about Mentheus, since he was his general.

5th edition High Elf AB page 15, paragraph 5, Caledor is noted as the only place where a sucessfull stand was made against chaos until Aenarion's coming.

Page 16 Deamons of Chaos, Ruin of Ulthuan, mentions how the elves were powerless and massacred by the deamons spending decades hiding caves in caves and the like.

Dark Elf AB Page 8, The Doom of Khaine. Aenarion establishes Anlec as a bastion against the deamons and defiant gesture to powers of chaos.

Historical errors you say? Maybe you be more careful before making unfounded allegations, especially in defence of fanboyish assertations like "those civilians are l33t n' pwned teh deamonz lulz!"

Trains_Get_Robbed
09-01-2011, 10:23
]Current High Elf AB page 28[/B], third paragraph. Morvael instituted the citizen levies. I got the name wrong, although I was right about Mentheus, since he was his general.

Historical errors you say? Maybe you be more careful before making unfounded allegations, especially in defence of fanboyish assertations like "those civilians are l33t n' pwned teh deamonz lulz!"


Yes, because my claims are unfounded, unlogical, poorly composed and grammatically lacking. . . . :rolleyes:

Your above post is terribly ironic. Not only have highlighted this post's points exactly in your post (I'am just using this to point it out for you -yes I' am that arragoant now), but are either incredible delusional or just really, really ignorant. Lets' just get this straight here:

Unfounded allegations, really? Did you not get the only name wrong from the H.E book -the only one (out of the others cited) that I own, and thus could have read and known? Though it is unfair of me to assume you know that I do not own those books, and should be same of you to assume that I know Demon and Dark Elf A/B knowledge or facts and own those books. The onus being more on you however, as this is a H.E wishlist thread, and of the following, I already stated:

"(unless stated differently in different A.B)." :eyebrows:


I'm the fan boy here? Really? I don't even know who the **** half of those people/elf/fantasy creatures are, and could care less as Warhammer is just a game I play with my friends to kill time and have fun (Warseer a place to grab all the 'new' rumors) -this goes without stating. Regardless, yes the person that dosen't even know how to spell leet in leet speak and also knows the entire epigy and world history of Warhammer and it's events (however your example was quite prudent for this statement, but it wouldn't prove my point. Alas, I digress.) is obviously the fanboy here. :wtf:

Adressing your final comment in the post, did I ever once use leet speak? *looks down to double check* No, I do not believe I did. So not only is your closing remark incorrect, boderline slanderous and ridcoulously grand, but very, very unjustifed and visually obviously false.

Meanwhile, my orginal closing remark that the hydra is five times better than a star dragon, although snide, holds water like a resovior. The metagame just about everywhere believes that the Hydra is an undercosted and beyond broken tool, that can't be compared with anything outside something of the same category for example, a HPA. (side note, I don't personally think that Hydras are super broken, I would like to see S.Dragons just improve most stats).

SO, maybe next time before getting angst (see D.E fit you well, they also have angst [this is safe to assume as you seemingly know everything in D.E A.B and believe Hydras aren't chesse]) and attacking somone else for pointing out something (that wasn't even directed at you -just waiting for you actually) defending comments that make that little or no sense, actually know, or pretend to know what your talking/claiming.B]

I'm done, I say we place bets now on how long it takes until the mods delete this. I say 4-7 hours.

[B]ACTUAL POST STARTS HERE:

In the mean time . . . .

With cavalry not being as effective in the metagame now, one can see the price drop surely, no? :eyebrows:

What if 'new' H.E cavalry was introduced something that others and myself have mentioned before W.L cavalry?

Would pricing for these and say D.Ps be/stay in the thirties or drop to the twenties, and what part of the twenties? High, low, middle? What would one for example, give to a W.L themed cav rules?

Essentially W.L on White Lions, same rules? I would like to see T4 on a elf unit, they could be the ones to try to implement it, or would this be too much travesty?

Around 26 points for me. Takers?

Ravening Wh0re
11-01-2011, 07:41
I like the armour save being modified by WS, makes the spearmen fearsome :)

Perhaps have the HE channel dispel dice on a 5+? Inversely, DE would channel power dice on a 5+ too.

Of course, these tweaks aren't overpowered enough so won't be liked very much

Chiungalla
11-01-2011, 07:47
I like the armour save being modified by WS, makes the spearmen fearsome :)

As would armor piercing, because it will have the very same effect on nearly all high elf troops, but is less complicated.

wilsongrahams
11-01-2011, 08:14
For me, the only three units that really NEED changing are Archers, Shadow Warriors and Ellyrion Reavers. You notice a theme here? A couple others could do with a change, but less importantly I think.

Well, I'm not about to go off on a rant, but Ellyrion Reavers could do with a little points drop, but I'd otherwise leave them as is. Shadow Warriors could do with two hand weapons as mentioned before so that they are quite deadly in combat in the small numbers they are used in.

As for archers themselves, whilst I think they are far too expensive for just an S3 shot, especially compared to cheaper dark elves with their crossbows, the only issue I ever have with them in games, is being out of range. Instead of Long Bows, maybe they should have Elf Bows or something (like LOTR) and they could fire at longer ranges but still at their S3 to balance this out a bit. Magic Bows for a Hawkeye would help here too as a minor boost that sea guard shouldn't get. Armour piercing would also be useful to allow archers use against tough targets without making them too strong against weaker ones - their accuracy at striking between armour plates etc is a fluff reason for this.

Allowing heavy armour on spearmen would be great, but not a change I feel is as urgently required as something for the archers.

Also Silver Helms need some fix or other to make them useful. With new models being needed, I'd entirely change what they are about when then new models are made, and allow them different weapon options. Make them more flexible, with options for two hand weapons, bows, etc. These are nobles afterall. What they should not become, is the tough, hard hitting cavalry that dragon princes should remain.

Desert Rain
11-01-2011, 10:08
High Elves are fine, just move some special units to the core and rare sections to balance army selection a little and fiddle with some points values. That's more or less all they need in my opinion.

Pulstar
11-01-2011, 14:34
High Elves are fine, just move some special units to the core and rare sections to balance army selection a little and fiddle with some points values. That's more or less all they need in my opinion.

I agree.

First unit of Silver Helm count as a core unit.
Bolt throwers cost 75 points.

Done.

Wyrmnax
11-01-2011, 16:14
Soo... wishlist for HE?

Lets see.

Overall

Speed of Asuriyan is not a good rule. ASF on everything is bad for tatics. There must be some way to keep the HE as "Elites" while not giving ASF for everything. The real problem with it is that it makes DE's Hatred pale im comparation.

A few good ideas have been suggested already - Giving "Armour Piercing" to pretty much all elven units, giving Killing Blow to White Lions while keeping ASF on Swordsmasters, etc.

I think the big question on HE is keeping the army 'Elite' while doing away with ASF.

Cavalry

Cavalry need a overall point reduction. Not only on HE, on pretty much all of warhammer. They are still useful, yes, but they lost a lot of the power they had in 7th, and they need a price reduction to compensate.

Lords and Heros

Small tweaks here and there, but i really want the Dragons to be usable again.

Core

HE Core really needs a overhaul. Its far too expensive. They do need a overall point reduction, and will need a even bigger reduction if ASF is taken out.

Special

Point fixing, mostly. Shadow warriors need a fairly big reduction. Swordsmasters, White Lions and Phoenix Guard are perfect right now. But if army wide ASF is taken out of the picture, they will need to gain some advantages back or get a reduction on their cost. Or maybe both, case by case.

Rare

Eagles could use a price reduction. Small one, but it should be there.

RBTs need to cost half of what they do now to even be considered.

I would really like to have more options on Rare too, if possible.

AlphariusOmegon20
11-01-2011, 17:02
Bring back Maidenguard. They SHOULD be in the book. Such a important unit should be represented.

Silver Helms or Ellyrian Reavers move to Core. There should be a core option for cav.

Phoenix Guard move to Rare. (I think Black Guard should move to Rare for the DE also, to represent their small numbers and super elite status. It would be a better option than the DE way, which is a unit member cap.)

Dragon Princes move to Rare.

Teclis nerf batted. He's way too OP now, ESPECIALLY with the changes to 8th. I play HE and even I think he's way OTT.

Book of Hoeth nerf batted. If you nerf bat Teclis, you might as well nerf bat the book also.

ASF should stay, but ASF with great weapons has got to go. It makes no sense that HE as as fast with a 40# GW as they are with a 3# sword. It also makes no sense that HE get ASF/GW but DE that spend a lot of time at war, thus giving them very practical experience with GW, do not. ASF and ASL canceling each other out like other armies makes sense.

New units for Cothique and Yvresse are needed.

KB on WL would make some sense.

OldMan
11-01-2011, 17:41
How about giving killing blow to swordmasters, rather than white lions?
In fluff swordmasters where always capable of killing in an eye's blink with one swift hit, and they had killing blow rule because of that. I would prefer it rather than giving them any kind of ward save.
And white lions are at the moment the most popular elite choice for HE. I don't think they need a buff.

Any ideas for units for cotique and Yvresse? As far as i remember, Yvresse was a bit sparta-like place, famous for abudance of excellent spearmen.
And Cothique was home of sailors, merchants and artists, a cultural centre. Not much in sense of martial tradition.

Wyrmnax
11-01-2011, 17:50
The idea of giving KB to White Lions would be to balance them loosing ASF

Keep ASF of the Swordsmasters - there is your 'in a blink of a eye'. Just make it normal ASF, that cancels out ASL

And give White Lions KB to compensate loosing ASF.

In any case, both units should get a price drop if this happens.

Chiungalla
11-01-2011, 18:11
In any case, both units should get a price drop if this happens.

And soon enough high elves will outnumber many other armies...

Changes to the army book should not be about troops getting less strong and cheaper.

But about making the strong units different from what they are now (e.g. no ASF) and keep the price. While making those units that are now bad stronger not cheaper, and only where this will not work out lower prices.

High elves should not have a higher number count with the next army book then they have now.

AlphariusOmegon20
11-01-2011, 18:55
How about giving killing blow to swormasters, rather than white lions?
In fluff swordmasters where always capable of killing in an eye's blink with one swift hit, and they had killing blow rule because of that. I would like prefer it rather than giving them any kind of ward save.
And white lions are at the moment the most popular elite choice for HE. I don't think they need a buff.

Any ideas for units for cotique and Yvresse? As far as i remember, Yvresse was a bit sparta-like place, famous for abudance of excellent spearmen.
And Cothique was home of sailors, merchants and artists, a cultural centre. Not much in sense of martial tradition.

KB on swordmasters is fine, but it makes just as much sense on white lions. Swordmasters already get 2 attacks each, they don't need Kb also. The lions have seemed almost like an afterthought rules wise, and could benefit from KB.

Besides, which do you think does more damage and would be more useful at decapitations, a 30-40 sword or a 40-50 axe?

Cothique is a naval center, so first Sea Guard would be a unit you would find in abundance in that province. The medeiros could be added to cover Cothique.

theunwantedbeing
11-01-2011, 18:58
Besides, which do you think does more damage and would be more useful at decapitations, a 30-40 sword or a 40-50 axe?

What are the numbers for?
In anycase, the sword has more of a cutting edge than the axe and so a single blow will carve through far more flesh than the axe will.

Also, which other elves get killing blow and what are they armed with?
Executionairs, and they are armed with swords.
Looks like all you'de be doing is raining on the executionairs parade.

AlphariusOmegon20
11-01-2011, 18:59
What are the numbers for?

In anycase, the sword has more of a cutting edge than the axe and so a single blow will carve through far more flesh than the axe will.

Sorry The numbers were the average weights of such weapons

Awilla the Hun
11-01-2011, 19:01
How about an option to give Spearmen pila-I mean, of course, throwing spears, that they can throw a volley of before charging in (special rule-let them shoot at maximum range in mid charge, AND it's sort of elvenish, as it conserves their extremely limited manpower by pelting the enemy from afar) with the gladius-I mean, of course, hand weapon? A more aggressive option for a core unit, and somewhat Gromanesque, like a lot of the High Elf stuff. In addition, letting them use the shield properly would also be very Elven; again, they conserve their limited manpower with slightly better protection.

That said, I know little about the Elvenist Royalist-Imperialists as they cower on their pathetic Island homeland, so don't mind me.

Chiungalla
11-01-2011, 19:01
Besides, which do you think does more damage and would be more useful at decapitations, a 30-40 sword or a 40-50 axe?

Killing blow is not only about decapitation.
But nonetheless I would go for the sword.

The axe will have it's advantages in a kind of "execution-situation"(head and neck on a solid piece of wood), but in a real combat the quickness and sharpness of a sword would make it way better to perform an decapitation.

A classic axe (not sure about white lion axes though) is to blunt to actually make a real decapitation likely, more often "only" breaking the neck on a solid hit to this region.

In fact even in classic execution-situations, they often used two-handed swords back then.


Any ideas for units for cotique and Yvresse? As far as i remember, Yvresse was a bit sparta-like place, famous for abudance of excellent spearmen.

Spear elves with pike (one more rank?) and heavy armor?


And Cothique was home of sailors, merchants and artists, a cultural centre. Not much in sense of martial tradition.

I would agree that there should be no martial tradition within this region. Maybe something very close in role to the seaguard, but this will be rather redundant I would say.

Tiu
12-01-2011, 01:29
A classic axe (not sure about white lion axes though) is to blunt to actually make a real decapitation likely, more often "only" breaking the neck on a solid hit to this region.


I agree with most of what you said, except this. An axe can be sharp enough to act as a razor. Most modern ones are, at least. And its reasonable to think HE have good equipment...

Trains_Get_Robbed
12-01-2011, 01:40
I don't see a reason to give the W.L Killing Blow, they are already killing most things as is with their S6. The Swordmasters with K.B souds fluffy, and accurate, though if they kept this and 2 attacks, and strike at I/ASF one would be looking at a points increase.

I would love to see the White Sword give Heroic Killing Blow as opposed to normal.

Hrogoff the Destructor
12-01-2011, 08:35
What I want:

-Teclis nerfed. Let’s face it; he’s a one man army.
-Swordmasters get -1 to hit from range. And of all the units in the game, this one deserves ASF the most (assuming they get rid of it).
-Archers cheaper.
-Shadow warriors get two hand weapons.
-Silver helms core.
-Sea Guard one point cheaper.
-Cheaper bolt thrower.
-Cheaper ellyrion riders.
-Another rare choice. Sea creature maybe?
-Nothing better than a 5+ save for infantry. HE’s need to be squishy.
-Disciplines for heroes.
-Unique Sea Guard and Swordmaster heroes.
-If they keep ASF, they need much more expensive GW's for heroes

And to be honest, I hope HE’s keep ASF. I’m not sure how they would function in 8th without it.

The problem with removing ASF is you get expensive but fragile models. Like someone else said, 15 points for a T3 5+ save model is a lot. Remove that rule you get a team that suffers from Grey Knight syndrome (6th edition HE book ring a bell?). It gets to the point where it's difficult to justify how expensive they are considering how fragile they are. ASF was a quick blanket fix for the HE’s without having to add in a dozen special rules needed for each individual unit.

And there are also those who say ASF removes tactics which is complete rubbish. I've found I really have to pick my fights High Elves, if not I get steam rolled. Even in 8th HE suffer quickly from losing a couple of models.


And SoA, while adressing game issues, opens far too many holes elsewhere. For example, why are High Elves suddenly faster than the speed of light, while their identical brethren with differen colours are not?

The different types of elves are absolutely nothing alike.

HE’s are stoic, self-controlled, and genuinely care about each person standing next to them.

DE’s are the polar opposite and let their emotions run wild. They are angry, hated filled, out to protect themselves, and don’t really care about the person standing next to them.

WE’s, while working as coherent units, lack the self control the HE’s do. In HE terms they are barbaric. They are trained in guerilla warfare and wouldn’t work in units the same way HE’s would.

bThere is absolutely no reason why the other elves would train the same way High Elves do.

OldMan
12-01-2011, 18:04
A common wish is to give 2 hand weapons to shades. I don't like this idea, as it makes them too similar to other skirmishers.
I would give them BS 5 and/or A2.
I prefer 2A (for sake of "elitness") to 2 hand weapons for yet another light unit .

AlphariusOmegon20
12-01-2011, 19:39
I would agree that there should be no martial tradition within this region. Maybe something very close in role to the seaguard, but this will be rather redundant I would say.

No martial tradition? Where do you think the majority of the Elven Navy comes from? It comes from Cothique. It actually makes more sense that the Sea Guard should be a Cothique unit, not a Lothern one. Lothern's just the biggest port city and capitol in Ulthlan.

Miredorf
12-01-2011, 20:13
I dont really care much about what they change or not, since its been a long time we mod the books, but to contribute:

-Implement some kind of provincial traits for characters, caledor chars only ones riding dragons for example, cracian chars using 2handers and lion cloaks... Etc.

-Get rid of the ASF bullcrap except on SM, but erradicate the 2 attack infantry aberration.

-Go back to a normal army chart and thus move more units to core and rare.

-Bring back heavy armours on spearmen and add ithilmar armour on elites (4+AS).

-Put barding as an option in Shelms, make them core and Ws 5.

With that id be happy i guess.

RanaldLoec
12-01-2011, 21:02
Rewrite and release The Empire, Woodelves and Warrior of Chaos books.:D

For real though I think highelves core choices ain't brilliant.

Maybe a point reduction for spearmen and some new core choice to match other armies range of core choices.