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Old Ben
04-01-2011, 02:31
I am giving my units of Chaos Warriors the following:

Mark of Khorne
Extra Hand Weapon
Shield

Am I correct in understanding that yes I won't get the CC ward save from the shield because of Frenzy (from the Mark), but I would still get the armor bonus from the shield giving them armor 3+? And lastly they would each get 2 extra attacks 1 from the Extra Hand Weapon and 1 from Frenzy?

tmarichards
04-01-2011, 02:37
The extra hand weapons takes the place of the shield in CC, so no +1 to the armour save in close combat. See pg 89 of the small rulebook.

You would, however, get the benefit against shooting.

Bear in mind that it's a 7th edition book, so the shield upgrade is costed assuming you would get it against shooting and then could choose to use it in combat if desired, so you're paying pts for an upgrade that now only gives half the former benefits if you take them with a special close combat weapon. In my opinion, a 4+ armour save and T4 is proof against most shooting, so I wouldn't recommend taking shields and halberds on ordinary warriors unless you've pts to spare

You're also correct about the lack of a parry due to frenzy.

Essentially, if you're taking Warriors the only 2 combos worth their salt are either Khorne with halberds (with shields if you anticipate a lot of shooting) or Tzeentch with shields for the 5+ Parry.

Two_Hands
04-01-2011, 02:55
Just to add to that, you have never been able to get the +1 to armour for a shield and the +1 attack from the extra hand weapon AT THE SAME TIME. It's always been one or the other (though previously you could choose which if you had both). Not sure if that is what you were asking but it sounded like it.

Shadow76
04-01-2011, 08:41
Essentially, if you're taking Warriors the only 2 combos worth their salt are either Khorne with halberds (with shields if you anticipate a lot of shooting) or Tzeentch with shields for the 5+ Parry.

I dont have my rule book in front of me, but for some reason i didnt think the parry save stacked with other ward saves. Why are you getting a 5+ parry?

Evil Hypnotist
04-01-2011, 08:43
I have always been under the assumption that an additional hand weapon requires an additional hand; therefore the model could not be equipped with a shield as well as 2 close combat weapons. The sacrifice of +1 armour save for +1 attack seems quite logical to me, especially with Mark of Khorne, allowing 4 attacks per warrior.


I dont have my rule book in front of me, but for some reason i didnt think the parry save stacked with other ward saves. Why are you getting a 5+ parry?

Mark of Tzeentch increases a model's Ward Save by 1 if the model is entitled to one.

Pharolyx
04-01-2011, 14:21
I have always been under the assumption that an additional hand weapon requires an additional hand; therefore the model could not be equipped with a shield as well as 2 close combat weapons. The sacrifice of +1 armour save for +1 attack seems quite logical to me, especially with Mark of Khorne, allowing 4 attacks per warrior.



Mark of Tzeentch increases a model's Ward Save by 1 if the model is entitled to one.

You may be equipped with both a shield and an additional hand weapon, but may only use one or the other in combat. Thus, equipping your units with both gives you the benefit not only of being able to choose once engaged in close combat, but giving further protection to your units from ranged damage.

Eta
04-01-2011, 14:23
You may be equipped with both a shield and an additional hand weapon, but may only use one or the other in combat. Thus, equipping your units with both gives you the benefit not only of being able to choose once engaged in close combat, but giving further protection to your units from ranged damage.

That was 7th edition. If you have a special weapon (halberd, additional handweapon, greatweapon, flail...) you will have to use it in close combat in 8th edition. You cannot choose to use the shield instead of a special weapon anymore.

Pharolyx
04-01-2011, 14:35
That was 7th edition. If you have a special weapon (halberd, additional handweapon, greatweapon, flail...) you will have to use it in close combat in 8th edition. You cannot choose to use the shield instead of a special weapon anymore.

Ah yes. Confirmed. I suppose when 8th came out, and I read that in the rulebook, maybe that was the reason I stopped giving shields to my troops like I did in 7th. For months now, I haven't been giving shields because I figured Parry was worthless, but I completely forgot about the true reason! Looks like I'm way past due for a rulebook-reading session. Time to grab the ol' Autobots pajamas and Michael Bolton vinyl!

Odin
04-01-2011, 14:44
Ah yes. Confirmed. I suppose when 8th came out, and I read that in the rulebook, maybe that was the reason I stopped giving shields to my troops like I did in 7th. For months now, I haven't been giving shields because I figured Parry was worthless, but I completely forgot about the true reason! Looks like I'm way past due for a rulebook-reading session. Time to grab the ol' Autobots pajamas and Michael Bolton vinyl!

You figured wrong.

Parry has proven very valuable in many of the games I've played. Very useful for anvil units which you want to keep steadfast. Obviously if you want your unit to kill the opposition you want halberds or great weapons, but shields definitely have their uses.

Pharolyx
04-01-2011, 15:15
You figured wrong.

Parry has proven very valuable in many of the games I've played. Very useful for anvil units which you want to keep steadfast. Obviously if you want your unit to kill the opposition you want halberds or great weapons, but shields definitely have their uses.

Not that they aren't useful at all, but I always take heavy offense now that I have Steadfast to rely on. I don't have any armies with too many infantry blocks, so I don't really have any anchor units. My only two armies are DoC and Dwarves. DoC is obvious, and I don't give my Dwarves shields because I find them (including Warriors) much more successful with great weapons.

I should've been specific and specified that they're useless for the armies I use. :p

T10
04-01-2011, 18:21
What's this? A tactics thread?

-T10

Pharolyx
05-01-2011, 04:54
What's this? A tactics thread?

-T10

Only to the naked eye... :shifty:

Agoz
05-01-2011, 05:01
I dont have my rule book in front of me, but for some reason i didnt think the parry save stacked with other ward saves. Why are you getting a 5+ parry?

the mark of tzeentch stacks with other ward saves, and the parry counts as a ward save, so 5+.