PDA

View Full Version : Lore of Metal Question(s)



Noght
08-01-2011, 17:04
I have a question(s) regarding Lore of Metal.

Metalshifting says that the roll to wound is the unmodified Armor Save of the target.

So if I cast Searing Doom on a unit of Greatswords (Armor Save 4+) I would need to roll 4+ to wound, no armor saves permitted.
What happens if I cast Plague of Rust on the Greatswords next turn lowering the Armor save to 5+? Do I wound on 5+ (don't think so) because the Greatswords are now "Modified" and Metalshifting uses unmodified of 4+.

Follow up: Using the Golden Hounds to target a General with a 2+ Armor Save, so I would need a 2+ to wound, lets say 3 wounds. The General gets a Look Out Sir for each attack and assuming he makes his LOS rolls then his Rank and File would take the wounds even if their unmodified save is 5+ for example? (In effect hitting a Lightly Armored or No Armored unit with an Armored character).

Thinking about using Lore of Metal for my Empire because I never see it out there, looking for a change I guess so I wanted to clarify.

Thanks in advance.
Noght

Palatine Katinka
08-01-2011, 18:49
"Look Out Sir!" is made against hits not wounds. Roll to see how many hits the spell generates, roll "Look Out Sir!" to see how many times random plebs leap into the path of giant mechanical hounds, roll to wound for hits against the character and hits against the unit separately.

sorberec
08-01-2011, 21:44
I have a question(s) regarding Lore of Metal.

Metalshifting says that the roll to wound is the unmodified Armor Save of the target.

So if I cast Searing Doom on a unit of Greatswords (Armor Save 4+) I would need to roll 4+ to wound, no armor saves permitted.
What happens if I cast Plague of Rust on the Greatswords next turn lowering the Armor save to 5+? Do I wound on 5+ (don't think so) because the Greatswords are now "Modified" and Metalshifting uses unmodified of 4+.

Just had to double-check the BRB as I hadn't noticed it mentioning it being the unmodified armour save but yes, I'd have to agree with your logic here - you'd be wounding on 4+ as it's the Greatswords normal AS.

Haravikk
08-01-2011, 22:28
Would mounts and things count as modifying the save then? Specifically ridden monsters, since they can be targeted separately but now grant +1 armour save?
What about armour combining (light armour + shield), is the unmodified save the light armour, then modified by the shield, or are both counted? I assume the latter since they're both regular armour combining normally, so is the modifier then anything more special like magic effects?

You're right though that no-one seems to use it, so I realise now I don't at all know how to use any of the spells, heh :D

sorberec
09-01-2011, 08:16
I'd say that your unmodified save is whatever you started the game with (obviously excepting characters on monstrous mounts whose mount is killed from underneath them).

i.e. a Silver Helm's save is 3+ from the Heavy Armour and Barded Steed. If I were to cast Glitering Robe on him during the game that would improve his save to 1+ but that would be modifying his save, so for the purposes of Searing Doom you'd be rolling on 3+ to wound.

medevilmike
09-01-2011, 13:58
I am pretty sure plague of rust is permanent....thus making you lt armor and sheild an unmodifiesd 6+ to save...now if i could take metal on my beasts and also had banner of rust that would be a modification.
On a side note LO,S is only for template attacks and that hitting a character to try for 2+ kills on a unit can never come up in a game.

DaemonReign
09-01-2011, 14:17
I am pretty sure plague of rust is permanent....

yes it is permanent.

So I have to agree with you here that I am not sure at all that it counts as "modification".

Either way, I wouldn't say it's clear either way from a RAW point of view.. But my group decided to play it like you say: If your AS is permanently lowered, then the "new" armour-save (of course) is your Unmodified armour save.

Not the AS you had at the beginning of the game that you will never have again.

Palatine Katinka
09-01-2011, 15:15
On a side note LO,S is only for template attacks and that hitting a character to try for 2+ kills on a unit can never come up in a game.

It also applies to Gehenna's Golden Hounds because the spell description specifically states that it does. However it is rolled for before the roll to wound so any hits transferred to the unit would wound them on their armour save and not the character's.

sorberec
09-01-2011, 15:40
yes it is permanent.

So I have to agree with you here that I am not sure at all that it counts as "modification".

Either way, I wouldn't say it's clear either way from a RAW point of view.. But my group decided to play it like you say: If your AS is permanently lowered, then the "new" armour-save (of course) is your Unmodified armour save.

Not the AS you had at the beginning of the game that you will never have again.

How can it not be modification?

Using the example from the spell description, your model with Light Armour and Shield gets Plague of Rust cast on it and its armour save is modified by being reduced by one point for the rest of the game. You still have the Light Armour and Shield but you now only get one point of armour save rather than the two you would normally.

If Plague of Rust removed one of your pieces of armour, for arguments sake the Light Armour, then whatever armour was left, the shield, when Searing Doom was cast on the model would be its unmodified armour save, in this case now 6+.

Noght
09-01-2011, 15:51
I feel that we are going around in circles on this.

So by casting Plague of Rust (permanent loss of -1 Armor Save) the Forum feels that you are reducing the chance to Wound from Searing Doom and Golden Hounds?

I could see using Plague of Rust on a Unit you hope to defeat soon, lets say casting it on the Light Armor/Shield guys so you can defeat the unit easier. (Probably not a Searing Doom Target anyway)

Lets muddy it up a bit more, Saurus Warriors with LA/Shield/Scaly Skin for a total of 3+ Armor Save or only 5+ to wound for the "actual" armor?

Noght

theunwantedbeing
09-01-2011, 15:52
It says unmodified save, so greatswords are always affected on a 4+, regardless of how many times plague of rust is cast on them. Even glittering robes won't make them hurt on anything easier than a 4+.

I choose to play differently though, I ignore the word "unmodified".

It's much more fun that way(makes more sense logically a well).
Makes searing doom very handy when somebody casts glittering robes on greatswords, similarly casting plague of rust on them makes it less effective, so there is a tradeoff and a more tactical element is kept.

Same ignoring of "unmodified" for things like magical weapons that cause leaqdership tests.
Although not for stubborn obviously as that would defeat the entire point of the rule!

sorberec
09-01-2011, 16:02
Lets muddy it up a bit more, Saurus Warriors with LA/Shield/Scaly Skin for a total of 3+ Armor Save or only 5+ to wound for the "actual" armor?

Noght

Scaly skin still counts as armour for working out your armour save so 3+

sorberec
09-01-2011, 16:03
So by casting Plague of Rust (permanent loss of -1 Armor Save) the Forum feels that you are reducing the chance to Wound from Searing Doom and Golden Hounds?

No, as evidenced by this thread, opinion seems split.

It just happens that I'm right ;)

antihelten
09-01-2011, 18:42
The problem is that if you count plague of rust as a modifier (which granted makes perfect sense), then you should also count anything else that modifies armour save.

This would include being mounted (this is called an armour saving throw modifier on page 43 of the BRB), scaly skin (regular armour works as the modifier when combined with scaly skin as per page 75 of the BRB), and arguably also shield (the text here doesn't specifically say armour save but rather "the score needed to save").

Now I would personally not normally count any of the above as armour save modifiers, but if plague of rust is then it makes perfect sense that these are too.

So I guess it's fairly unclear what exactly the unmodified armour save of a model is.

sorberec
09-01-2011, 21:11
Now I would personally not normally count any of the above as armour save modifiers, but if plague of rust is then it makes perfect sense that these are

But they're not modifiers, they are your armour - several pieces of armour (or in the case of scaly skin, an innate feature of the model that counts as armour for the purpose of working out its armour save).

Plague of Rust isn't a piece of equipment that gets added to the model giving it a -1 armour to its armour save, it's a spell whose effect is to modify the total armour save given by the equipment (or scaly skin) the model has by -1.

Haravikk
09-01-2011, 21:32
I think regarding playing the game I would be inclined to say that anything that is directly armour (equipment) should count, mounts are the one that I'm most uncertain of though.

Tregar
09-01-2011, 22:23
Another GW &@#$-up with worse than useless use of the term "unmodified". The entire premise of armour saves is based upon you have no armour and then it is modified by the armour worn!

theunwantedbeing
09-01-2011, 22:27
So everyone has an unmodified armour save of nothing, so the lore of metal never does anything.

As per RAW?

I can see this being ruled for at tournaments, but only because judges are there to generate an answer quickly as opposed to knowing the rules inside and out.

Noght
10-01-2011, 00:06
Sorry for the opened can of worms....

I think that your Armor Save at the start of the game is your unmodified Armor Save.

Empire Knights 1+, Brets 2+, Chaos Warriors 3+, Greatswords 4+...whatever.

So Searing Doom and Hounds would wound on that number (unmodified).

If during the Game you cast Plague of Rust (-1/cast for the duration) or Transmutation of Lead (-1 WS/BS/AS) those effects are not your "unmodified" Armor Save.

If a Monster mounted character has it's mount shot out from under him then his gear designates his unmodified Armor Save, i.e. an Empire Capt. on Pegasus is still probably Plate mail for 4+, maybe 3+ with Lance and Shield.

Or I could be totally wrong and you use Plague of Rust to reduce the opponents Armor Save so your Rank and File guys can kill more foes and you hope you roll Blades, Scales, Transmutation of Lead and Final Transmutation for buffs/debuffs/direct damage and not worry about Hounds and Searing Doom unless of course you get a heavily armored foe in a tourney.

Noght

Palatine Katinka
10-01-2011, 01:06
If a Monster mounted character has it's mount shot out from under him then his gear designates his unmodified Armor Save, i.e. an Empire Capt. on Pegasus is still probably Plate mail for 4+, maybe 3+ with Lance and Shield.

Bad example. The pegasus is a Monstrous Beast and can't be killed separately from the rider.

I always asssumed that Plague of Rust reduced the chanc eto wound with other Metal spells. I thought it a funny downside but I generally wouldn't use it on the targets that I'd use damaging spells on anyway. I'd use the damage spells on small elite units and Plague of Rust on large infantry units with 4+ or 5+ saves so my repeater crossbows would have a better effect. I'd run with the idea that a permanent reduction to their armour due to it rusting, flaking and breaking changes what their "unmodified" state is. I can't really back that up with rules though and I guess a Metal mage might be able to temporarily turn the rust back into metal and melt it. Add a touch of aluminium, a little magnesium to bring some heat and your sorted...

pehldog63
10-01-2011, 22:58
I also have a question concerning the Lore of Metal. Does this lore also effect scaly skin. My brother plays Lizardmen and he states it does not effect them because they have scaly skin.

Palatine Katinka
10-01-2011, 23:04
Nothing in either the lore of metal or the scaly skin rules say that the lore doesn't affect scaly skin. There's even a spell that grants scaly skin so I guess the metal mages must be able to exert some magical control over it!

If he doesn't think it is logical just wave your hands and say "It's magic!"

Tregar
10-01-2011, 23:10
He's wrong. Ask him to explain why, but be sure to tell him that "Because I want it to be true!" is not in the rulebook.

Spiney Norman
11-01-2011, 11:06
I feel that we are going around in circles on this.

So by casting Plague of Rust (permanent loss of -1 Armor Save) the Forum feels that you are reducing the chance to Wound from Searing Doom and Golden Hounds?

I could see using Plague of Rust on a Unit you hope to defeat soon, lets say casting it on the Light Armor/Shield guys so you can defeat the unit easier. (Probably not a Searing Doom Target anyway)

Lets muddy it up a bit more, Saurus Warriors with LA/Shield/Scaly Skin for a total of 3+ Armor Save or only 5+ to wound for the "actual" armor?

Noght

Except that Saurus warriors cannot take light armour, so only 4+, Temple Guard would be 3+ however.

Its pretty simple, figure out the armour save that the model/unit started the game with and use that, regardless of any in-game modifiers. Its probably wiser not to ask questions like "how can a saurus' scales rust" as such matters have zero bearing on the application of the rules. Note that the wording for the lore of metal does not indicate any fussiness about whether the armour save is the result of metal plate, leather tunics or scaly hides.

Plague of rust is clearly a modifier as it modifies the armour save of the target, some people will say anything to get an edge. please lets not muddy this thread with a ten page discussion on the definition of "modifier".

Heres an interesting question which I believe would constitute a difference in a models armour save that was NOT a modifier.

My Empire general is kitted out (on foot) with full plate armour and an enchanted shield, the shield is later destroyed by Vaul's unmaking reducing his armour save accordingly. Would the golden hounds wound him on 4+ or 2+ after his shield was destroyed?

sorberec
11-01-2011, 20:01
My Empire general is kitted out (on foot) with full plate armour and an enchanted shield, the shield is later destroyed by Vaul's unmaking reducing his armour save accordingly. Would the golden hounds wound him on 4+ or 2+ after his shield was destroyed?

He'll be on 3+ as the magical properties of the shield have been nullified but he will still have the shield (Vaul's Unmaking doesn't destroy magic items, just removes their magical properties, therefore magic weapons, shields or armour become mundane).

antihelten
11-01-2011, 20:58
Plague of rust is clearly a modifier as it modifies the armour save of the target, some people will say anything to get an edge. please lets not muddy this thread with a ten page discussion on the definition of "modifier".


Why is plague of rust "clearly" a modifier and the increased armour save from being mounted not, when the last one is clearly called a modifier in the BRB and the first one isn't.

And the idea about the unmodified armour being the armour save a model starts the game with isn't supported in anyway in the BRB as far as I can tell.

Admittedly I'm being the devils advocate a bit here, as I actually agree that defining the starting armour save as the unmodified armour save works quite well and painlessly, but it just isn't supported by the rules. So the whole thing is quite muddy whether we like it or not.