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View Full Version : "Smoke and Mirrors" vs DoC Heralds



DaemonReign
10-01-2011, 04:28
Ok here's one that occured to me a while back that I figured would amuse:

Can I use "Smoke and Mirrors" (the Lore of Shadows) to "swap" DoC Heralds so that they end up joining units that they cannot join normally?

I.e. my Tzeentch Herald is in a Horror bunker and casts a Shadow-spell, swapping place with a Khorne Herald in a Bloodletter unit.

Naturally, the respective Locus of the Heralds would Not work on the newly joined unit - but my question is: Could it happen at all?

I can't think of reason "why not" - except for the fact that it's deeply ugly.

Torpedo Vegas
10-01-2011, 04:43
I don't have my DoC book on me, but if it specifies that Heralds cannot join units devoted to a different God, than I would assume it wouldn't let you swap em, as that counts as joining a unit.

T10
10-01-2011, 06:20
The Smoke and Mirrors Lore attribute doesn't come with any further instructions. As such it certainly does appear to override a number of rules regarding characters and restrictions that normally apply to them. It doesn't say "using the normal rules for characters joining units", nor does it say to ignore those rules.

What this means is that you'll probably need to resolve any issues on a case-by-case through discussion with your opponent.

All in all, it's one of those "simple fun" rules that don't seem very well thought out.

-T10

theunwantedbeing
10-01-2011, 07:37
Page 30,
Heralds can't join units not of their god.

Swapping place with the shadow spell would count as "joining" for most people.
No doubt there are instances where you could get your opponent to agree that you are allowed to swap anyway, or that it's not technically "joining" the unit if you swap places or some such rubbish like that.

People are gulliabe things who don't bother checking the rules.
You can get away with a lot when playing warhammer that's blatently illegal as a result.

Ultimate Life Form
10-01-2011, 11:28
"Joining a Unit:

To join a unit a Character must move into base contact with it during the movement phase".

I see neither of these conditions met even to the smallest degree.

Gazak Blacktoof
10-01-2011, 12:14
Surely if you swap places with a model that has already joined a unit, then you have now joined the unit?

Ultimate Life Form
10-01-2011, 12:29
My English skills are reaching their limits, but to my understanding 'joining' a unit denotes the transgression from being a single model to being part of said unit, which happens in a split second and is then accomplished. If I'm informed correctly, it is the occurance of this event that the Daemon book prevents. If we argue that the teleporting model simply takes on the status of the model it replaces, we do have the problem that the 'joining' process has already been executed in the past and thus cannot logically happen at the moment the Smoke and Mirrors effect is resolved.

Note that all of this is neither my opinion (it is now my policy to have no opinion in regards to GW rules), nor would I try to pull this off, but it is still interesting to discuss.

RanaldLoec
10-01-2011, 12:30
Page 30,
Heralds can't join units not of their god.

Swapping place with the shadow spell would count as "joining" for most people.
No doubt there are instances where you could get your opponent to agree that you are allowed to swap anyway, or that it's not technically "joining" the unit if you swap places or some such rubbish like that.

People are gulliabe things who don't bother checking the rules.
You can get away with a lot when playing warhammer that's blatently illegal as a result.

I would have to agree with The Unwantedbeing as he is a paragon of sense and reason in an unreasonable environment.

ULF I shall rename you The Devils Advocate, yes that is the rules definition of joining a unit.

But a hearld who is deploying in a unit in the deployments phase isn't technically joining the unit by this definition.

So read in to that as you wish but I'm with knickers in his avatars mouth man, on this one.

Tregar
10-01-2011, 12:44
Well, if you say that you cannot use this attribute to join units that you cannot normally join, this prevents you swapping characters into combat as well.

Seems the best answer is an arbitrary NO. Just, not by RAW.

DaemonReign
10-01-2011, 16:25
Thanks guys for twisting and turning this issue like you have done.

I have no opinion in this matter. The issue has NEVER arisen in any game I have played, nor do I think it ever will because the whole Locus-deal makes "Smoke and mirrors" really stupid for DoC in most cases..

Still.. Tregar sums it up pretty well saying that the answer should be "no" - but not by RAW.. hehe

Any point in hoping for an Errata? ;)

T10
10-01-2011, 22:20
Any point in hoping for an Errata? ;)

Sure.

-T10

senoja
10-01-2011, 22:37
same thing happens in DE too ive seen a player cast 2 shadow magics spells before combat first swapping places with a deathhag model in an executioner unit and then with his dreadlord (aka getting a non khainite character into a khainite unit)

theunwantedbeing
10-01-2011, 22:39
same thing happens in DE too ive seen a player cast 2 shadow magics spells before combat first swapping places with a deathhag model in an executioner unit and then with his dreadlord (aka getting a non khainite character into a khainite unit)

Not legal to do that.

Tregar
10-01-2011, 23:07
...because that would involve the character joining a unit which is already in combat, which is forbidden, right? ;)

senoja
10-01-2011, 23:28
Not legal to do that.

tell me where in the brb it is not legal and i shall concide nothing states in the smoke and mirrors rules that it follows all the rules for characters joining units it simply states they swap places

theunwantedbeing
10-01-2011, 23:37
It'll be changed to say "even in combat", still doesnt allow a non-khainite character to join a khainite unit.

Tregar
11-01-2011, 00:12
Oh, will it? Thanks for sharing your direct line to the developers with us ;)

a18no
11-01-2011, 14:26
It'll be changed to say "even in combat", still doesnt allow a non-khainite character to join a khainite unit.

I'm still confuse abotu one thing: can the mage use the lore attribut to quit combat.

Let say a mage in a unit of phoenix guard and in contact with an ennemy, with BSB in the same unit but not in contact with ennemy. Can the mage cast any spell from shadow lore (not stead cause not legal), to just swap his place with the BSB after the spell resolve?

Since that move will make a character quit combat and it's forbidden to do that by any other means in the rules...