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The Anarchist
11-01-2011, 19:28
By this queston I mean is it now tradition that new chapters must be formed on basis of the codex asartes? i understand at first they almost inevitabley will, but as time passes do chapters have to stay to the codex?

could a chapter find that is recruiting to well and so grow beyond 1000 marines without censure? is keeping to roughly 1000 marins a tradition thats so obvious people never think to break it or is it an actual law of the Imperium? i know that the space wolves are beyond 1000, as are the Black Templars, however this is due to their nature, history and disposition.

Maidel
11-01-2011, 20:15
HAHA - dont mention 1000 space marines... Ive seen threads saying 1000 marines is wrong. Its a 1000 battle brothers - so most likely all chapters are over 1000 strong (or way under if in a prolonged battle period.) 1200-1500 is the most likely number in a full strength chapter.

But I digress.

If a chapter started recruiting without the imperiums permission (and I mean MASSIVELY) then they would have major issues as soon as they found out.

Add to that the length of time it takes to train marines and harvest their gene seed - well they would have to refrain from any even remotely major conflicts for decades if not centuries in order to build up their numbers quickly (although the more marines you have the faster it grows, its exp. growth curve.)

Chapters are mostly (something like 50-75%) created from the ultramarine/fist gene seed and thus as they are the least 'deviant' then their successor chapters are also less deviant (ok, black templars are very deviant...)

Most of the deviations from the codex tend to come from inate traits of the gene seed - eg space wolves 'pack mentality'. Thus it would be less common to see a deviant chapter formed from the 'normal' stock that suddenly developed a massive deviation from the norm. Sure a few chapters would gain odd traits based on the wars they fought or the area of space they protected, even the ultramarines had the non-codex tyranid hunter teams for a while.

Therefore, to answer your question is three fold:

1) A 'loyal' chapter would be very unlikely to do this (and for the purposes of 'loyal' I do leave the wolves out of this - they are loyal to themselves and to Russ before the imperium)
2) The chapter would know the penalty for this action and would thus either have to be mad, bad or have a very good reason for doing so.
3) The codex astartes is 'law' it was created by guiliman in order to prevent any 1 chapter having the strength to damage the imperium, therefore breaking this goes against the imperium in a big way. The templars get away with it because they are split into crusades, which are effectively 'mini' chapters in their own right. The wolves get away with it because declaring them trator would infact cause the imperium to split because the other 'deviant' first founding chapters would come running and it would be all out civil war again.

Lord_Crull
11-01-2011, 20:17
Only the size limits aseem to actually be enforced. Actual organization and combat docrine are optional.

Index Astartes: Codex Astartes.


The Adeptus Terra has never felt it necessary to enforce the Codex absolutely. Indeed it is doubtful whether it could.

Maidel
11-01-2011, 20:19
Only the size limits aseem to actually be enforced. Actual organization and combat docrine are optional.

Index Astartes: Codex Astartes.

Although according to the bar in the previous marine codex (or is it 2 previous, they change it so often...) the wolves, blood angels and salamanders are all considered to be on the brink of heresy by their 'dubious' attributes/organisation etc.

Ill grab the quote if you want.

Lord_Crull
11-01-2011, 20:23
Although according to the bar in the previous marine codex (or is it 2 previous, they change it so often...) the wolves, blood angels and salamanders are all considered to be on the brink of heresy by their 'dubious' attributes/organisation etc.

Ill grab the quote if you want.

That's the first I've heard of it.

Maidel
11-01-2011, 20:25
That's the first I've heard of it.

gimmie a few and ill find it - here comes the uber crate of doom that contains all my codexes... It used to be a shoe box.

The Anarchist
11-01-2011, 20:37
its always struck me that the chance of the Imperium ever being anything but a defensive force and entity was created by the breakdown into chapters. so if any chapter master ever reached this same thought and decided to follow the orginal idea of the Emperor and build as big a force as he could and set out to conquor for the Imperium he would act upon building much larger than a Chapter 1000 (battle brothers or just marines in any shape or form)

Askil the Undecided
11-01-2011, 20:39
SW and BA I can see being under threat of denouncement due to physical mutation and psychological diversion from base humanity but the Sallies? The Sallies are just chaps with some pigmentation oddities rather like the raven guard but at the other end of the scale.

Lord_Crull
11-01-2011, 20:40
its always struck me that the chance of the Imperium ever being anything but a defensive force and entity was created by the breakdown into chapters. so if any chapter master ever reached this same thought and decided to follow the orginal idea of the Emperor and build as big a force as he could and set out to conquor for the Imperium he would act upon building much larger than a Chapter 1000 (battle brothers or just marines in any shape or form)

The Imperium has offensive power. Much of the Age of Redemption took place over several millenia. Chapters are fully capable of being formed into Crusades when needed.

Maidel
11-01-2011, 20:42
Got what I was looking for (Well part of it) in the 3rd edition space wolves codex there is a full page of 'investigation' into the space wolves chapter by Inquisitor Von Heppel. I wont re-type the entire page, just the parts of his 'conclusion' (appologies for mistakes in this, im typing it very fast...)

To summerise the space wplves maintain a feral warriro code which ould be termed a system of religeous beliefs in only the broadest terms. In many ways I am reminded of the tales ofthe mhystic warior lodges of Davin which legend tells tained Horus in anceint times and brought about the great heresy. The space wolves have already proven their ability to stave off the most determined attcks on their realm, so overt action is out of the question. HoweverI veleive that it is imperatice that thi partiuclar space marine chapter is olosely minitored for signs of abomination and that wahtever influence can be brought to bear upon th inqusition to mtake an interrst in the matter should be applied forthwith'

Askil the Undecided
11-01-2011, 20:43
Also SM crusades have a modular structure with many independant elements capable of acheiving objectives without having to rely on a centralised command structure making them more flexible than both a legion or IG crusade force.

Lord_Crull
11-01-2011, 20:53
Got what I was looking for (Well part of it) in the 3rd edition space wolves codex there is a full page of 'investigation' into the space wolves chapter by Inquisitor Von Heppel. I wont re-type the entire page, just the parts of his 'conclusion' (appologies for mistakes in this, im typing it very fast...)

To summerise the space wplves maintain a feral warriro code which ould be termed a system of religeous beliefs in only the broadest terms. In many ways I am reminded of the tales ofthe mhystic warior lodges of Davin which legend tells tained Horus in anceint times and brought about the great heresy. The space wolves have already proven their ability to stave off the most determined attcks on their realm, so overt action is out of the question. HoweverI veleive that it is imperatice that thi partiuclar space marine chapter is olosely minitored for signs of abomination and that wahtever influence can be brought to bear upon th inqusition to mtake an interrst in the matter should be applied forthwith'

That has less to do with following the codex Astartes and the traditions of the planetary culture.

CasaHouse
11-01-2011, 20:57
The Space Marines all follow the codex about as rigidly as anyone with an internet connection follows Copyright Law regarding music and movies. Sure, there are some puritans, but most just treat it with the minimum amount of respect necessary to avoid censure from the Inquisition.(In both cases)

It's pretty much: "This is what you're supposed to do. Nobody expects you to get it totally right, but if you find yourself breaking it, just don't be a *****."

And I'm eagerly waiting on word of how the Salamanders are on the brink of anything.

Maidel
11-01-2011, 21:00
That has less to do with following the codex Astartes and the traditions of the planetary culture.

Well - thats up for personal interpretation. They are under investigation because they dont 'tow the line' so to speak.

If they were a fully codex chapter they wouldnt do those things and thus, wouldnt be in trouble with the inquisition.

Also - if you look at the 3rd edition space marine codex, back page the blood angels are in trouble with the inquisition for their 'traits':

Blood Angels:
Source - Authorised Report - Inquisitor Damne
Charge: Blood angels and their successors follow unconventional and deviant gene-replication practices that has led to debasement of their gene-seed.


Again - you may want to claim this isnt directly linked to the codex astartes - but, as no copy of the actual codex has ever been published by GW, and im certain that if it was it would include remembering NOT to fix the sample of gene seed sent to the adepus mechanicus - then this is linked.

Maidel
11-01-2011, 21:01
And I'm eagerly waiting on word of how the Salamanders are on the brink of anything.

Ive probably gotten that one wrong :)

[lexus]
11-01-2011, 21:02
its always struck me that the chance of the Imperium ever being anything but a defensive force and entity was created by the breakdown into chapters. so if any chapter master ever reached this same thought and decided to follow the orginal idea of the Emperor and build as big a force as he could and set out to conquor for the Imperium he would act upon building much larger than a Chapter 1000 (battle brothers or just marines in any shape or form)

Julius Cesar also started with conquering for the Roman Empire. But soon, he conquered the Roman Empire. Now imagine this, and the possibility of chaos infestation in that chapter. Nobody in the Imperium wants a second Horus, let alone a second Horus Heresy.

Lord_Crull
11-01-2011, 21:05
If they were a fully codex chapter they wouldnt do those things and thus, wouldnt be in trouble with the inquisition.


No, a Codex Chapter could still get in trouble if there culture could be considered heretical.

A Chapter's culture and the Codex are two different things.



Blood Angels:
Source - Authorised Report - Inquisitor Damne
Charge: Blood angels and their successors follow unconventional and deviant gene-replication practices that has led to debasement of their gene-seed.


Again - you may want to claim this isnt directly linked to the codex astartes - but, as no copy of the actual codex has ever been published by GW, and im certain that if it was it would include remembering NOT to fix the sample of gene seed sent to the adepus mechanicus - then this is linked.

Except we know what the codex is, a treastie on the Marine oganization and combat doctrine. And the Blood Angel's geneseed problems in reality deal more with Sanguinius's psychic death.

True, the codex was also meant to deal with the genetic problems after the Heresy, but nobody knew of the flaw in Sanguinius's geneseed until then.


The Space Marines all follow the codex about as rigidly as anyone with an internet connection follows Copyright Law regarding music and movies. Sure, there are some puritans, but most just treat it with the minimum amount of respect necessary to avoid censure from the Inquisition.(In both cases)


I doubt it's the minimum amount. Index Astartes: Codex Astartes, speaks of how chapters are ''largely organized by the Codex''. There are some that follow it in the minimum, but it seems the majority do follow it since subsequent foundings tend to favor Guilliman's line.

And the Inqusition does not enforce the Codex. Not even the Adeptus Terra can and it's entirely up to the Chapter to follow it or not.

The Anarchist
11-01-2011, 21:08
CasaHouse i love your view on this, i think it very apt.

Lord_Crull i know there is still methods of forming cruades, but crusades in the persent Imperium (with exception of Templars) tend to be an ad-hoc thing or one with very set objectives, rather than the orginal purpose of the Astartes of a great crusade to conqueror the stars.
some have said that te only way to go beyond the basic 1000-esque size would be to avoid any major conflicts. well again the Great Crusade proves otherwise. modern chapters recruit a very small number of possible aspirants each cycle, however gathering a far number of recruits all the time is a possible idea and one thats been done before to build much larger astartes formations.
so should a chapter master decide to become a crusading chapter and then everytime a planet or or opportunity becomes availble takes as many aspirants as there is ready gene-seed to implant, and any that become marines join straight into the chapter (as scouts) and follow normal progression of any Astartes. would this cause censure from the Imperium or be allowed.

Askil the Undecided
11-01-2011, 21:09
The Sallies were on the brink of being more interesting than the Ultrachaps briefly then GW decided to drop the cool fire, magma and lizards stuff and instead that the Sallies would be the "blackspliotation" chapter for a gimick and all the relatively timid chaps and chappettes in the world said something along the lines of.

"errmmm... no tah, I don't want my army to look... well, terrible."

Either terrible as in "I'm terrible at painting and left the skin jet black" or "I'm a terrible racist and blacked up my army like a minstrel show."

The Anarchist
11-01-2011, 21:10
Lexus no-one wants a second Horus or another HH, but look at many of earths great empires and one over agressvie tyrant has expanded his nations empire because he can force power in a way a democracy or council rarely can. so whilst the chapter master who decides to build to big a chapter would be seen as self-agrandising or a risk. he can also be a great chance for expansion and growth in the Imperium

Lord_Crull
11-01-2011, 21:12
Lord_Crull i know there is still methods of forming cruades, but crusades in the persent Imperium (with exception of Templars) tend to be an ad-hoc thing or one with very set objectives, rather than the orginal purpose of the Astartes of a great crusade to conqueror the stars.


Which they can do when needed. But right now the Astartes are far more useful on a defensive role. Right now the Imperium is hard-pressed just to defend the worlds it already has, rather than actively expand.


some have said that te only way to go beyond the basic 1000-esque size would be to avoid any major conflicts. well again the Great Crusade proves otherwise.

How does that prove otherwise? The Great Crusade led to the Heresy, which the Imperium is eager to avoid a repeat of.


so should a chapter master decide to become a crusading chapter and then everytime a planet or or opportunity becomes availble takes as many aspirants as there is ready gene-seed to implant, and any that become marines join straight into the chapter (as scouts) and follow normal progression of any Astartes. would this cause censure from the Imperium or be allowed.

It depends how the chapter handles it.

Maidel
11-01-2011, 21:12
No, a Codex Chapter could still get in trouble if there culture could be considered heretical.

A Chapter's culture and the Codex are two different things..


Hummm - I dont agree. It seems to me that the chapters culture is the thing that makes it deviant from the codex? Thus they are linked.

Like a lot of things in Fluff you can read it one way or the other and it very very rarely states something in black and white thus you have to take your own personal view on the subject.

Lord_Crull
11-01-2011, 21:14
Hummm - I dont agree. It seems to me that the chapters culture is the thing that makes it deviant from the codex? Thus they are linked.


No they are not. I'll pull the quote abut the codex right form the Marine codex itself.


Of all his works the most influential is the Codex Astartes, the great prescriptive tome that lays down the basic organisational and tactical rules for Space Marines. The Horus Heresy had revealed weaknesses in the geneseed of several Space Marine Legions which had been exaggerated by the accelerated zygote harvesting techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength. The powers of Chaos exploited this growing physical and mental corruption to turn Horus’s troops against the Emperor. The prime objective of the new Codex Astartes was to recognise and expunge these weaknesses.


The Codex Astartes further defines the tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform identification markings of the Space Marines. These guidelines have evolved over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the forty first millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history.

It says nothing about culture. Indeed, every chapter has a different culture. The Raven Guard are a largely Codex chapter, but they have a different culture than the Ultramarines. The Fists are noted to be a completely Codex chapter, but they have a greatly different culture than the Ultramarines. The Red Scorpions are a Codex chapter with a culture different than the Ultramarines, the Howling Griffons are a Codex Chapter quite different than the Ultramarines. I could go on and on.


Like a lot of things in Fluff you can read it one way or the other and it very very rarely states something in black and white thus you have to take your own personal view on the subject.

Then it's good that we have something that quite clearly states what the roles of the Codex are.

Maidel
11-01-2011, 21:18
No they are not. I'll pull the quote abut the codex right form the Marine codex itself.
It says nothing about culture. Indeed, every chapter has a different culture. The Raven Guard are a largely Codex chapter, but they have a different culture than the Ultramarines. The Fists are noted to be a completely Codex chapter, but they have a greatly different culture than the Ultramarines.
Then it's good that we have something that quite clearly states what the roles of the Codex are.

You arent really thinking along the same lines as me, so ill spell it out.

Space wolves culture (one aspect of it) = pack mentality.

The pack mentality is the reason why they do not form codex squads.


Blood angels culture (genetic culture at least) leads them to experiance black rage - hence why they form non-codex death companies.


Salamanders culture - 7 clans - this is why they dont follow the 10 company codex structure.

Does that make sense now.

Lord_Crull
11-01-2011, 21:22
You arent really thinking along the same lines as me, so ill spell it out.

Space wolves culture (one aspect of it) = pack mentality.

The pack mentality is the reason why they do not form codex squads.


No, that's one of the reasons why they don't. It's also because the Space Wolves choose to do that. Regardless they are not prosecuted for not following the codex, but because of their culture, something seperate.



Blood angels culture (genetic culture at least) leads them to experiance black rage - hence why they form non-codex death companies.


Actually it's just genetics. The Blood Angels are mentioned as being a largely Codex chapter who try to adhere as much as possible as their geneseed allows. Chapter culture has little to do with it.



Salamanders culture - 7 clans - this is why they dont follow the 10 company codex structure.


However they follow some aspects of the Codex and they are actually not prosecuted at all because of that. So I don't see your point at all here for them.

It's a Chapter's choice to follow the Codex. The Wolves where prosecuted more for their culture. The Blood Angels are not really prosecuted and the Salamanders not at all.


Does that make sense now.

No, it does not.

Maidel
11-01-2011, 21:33
Sigh... are you always this awkward?


Right, from my perspective it works this way.

The chapters genetics influence its culture (appart from a few weird chapters who have off the wall cultures for no apparant reason). The more extreme cultures then affect the way the chapter is structured and how it fights, thus impacting on the way the chapter interprets the codex astates.

You are right, the majority of them are viewed bady by the inquistion not because they dont follow the codex, but because their practices verge on heretical. However it is the same practices that means they dont follow the codex, that also mean they are verging on heresy, so for me, they are linked.

Lord_Crull
11-01-2011, 21:37
Sigh... are you always this awkward?


No, I'm simply following what GW wrote down.



The chapters genetics influence its culture (appart from a few weird chapters who have off the wall cultures for no apparant reason). The more extreme cultures then affect the way the chapter is structured and how it fights, thus impacting on the way the chapter interprets the codex astates.


No, a Chapter's homeworld and history chapes it culture more than genetics. A Space Wolf raised on Macragge would be different than one raised on Fenris. Genetics has a part in some chapters.

Actually it's more based on choice. Or not with the Blood Angels. In the case of the Blood Angels they would like to follow it like the Ultramarines do, but their geneseed prevents it.


However it is the same practices that means they dont follow the codex, that also mean they are verging on heresy, so for me, they are linked.

Except in some cases (Like the Salamanders) they are not prosecuted at all, or in the case of the Blood Angels, it's not practices so much as genetics.

Maidel
11-01-2011, 21:40
No, I'm simply following what GW wrote down.

Well I gave 2 quotes from the codexs that show that 2 chapters are being investigated for their deviant practices, and you say they dont count - so which is it?


Actually it's more based on choice. Or not witht he Blood Angels. In the case of the Blood Angels they would like to follow it like the Ultramarines do, but their geneseed prevents it.

Yes, but the blood angels dont HAVE to tamper with the geneseed that they send to mars - but they choose to. All the chapters are influenced by their genetics, hence the way they react/act/ and administer themselves.

Maidel
11-01-2011, 21:43
No, a Chapter's homeworld and history chapes it culture more than genetics. A Space Wolf raised on Macragge would be different than one raised on Fenris. Genetics has a part in some chapters.

Actually, I disagree. Chapters that are based on the geneseed of other chapters (flesh tearers/blood angels for example) show that the genetics are the biggest influence on how they form. Almost all successor chapters are deviant in the same way as their parent chapter, yet raised on different planets with different cultures. Sure occationally one pops up thats different, but they arent the norm.


Please stop modifying your posts after ive already replied to them, it makes having a coherant discussion very difficult.

Lord_Crull
11-01-2011, 21:44
Well I gave 2 quotes from the codexs that show that 2 chapters are being investigated for their deviant practices, and you say they dont count - so which is it?


I never said they did't count. Don't put words in my mouth.

I was reffering to my quote about how the Codex deals with combat doctrien and practice, not culture.



Yes, but the blood angels dont HAVE to tamper with the geneseed that they send to mars - but they choose to.

But the Blood Angels don't tamper with the geneseed. It's already unstable enough.



All the chapters are influenced by their genetics, hence the way they react/act/ and administer themselves.

No, case in point the Mortifactors. Ultramarines geneseed, wildly different culture because of their homeworld. One of them even says this and compares Posul to Macragge.


Actually, I disagree. Chapters that are based on the geneseed of other chapters (flesh tearers/blood angels for example) show that the genetics are the biggest influence on how they form. Almost all successor chapters are deviant in the same way as their parent chapter, yet raised on different planets with different cultures. Sure occationally one pops up thats different, but they arent the norm.


Actually no. That's more for just one chapter. Look at the Executioners, the Templars and the Fists, all with different cultures but the same geneseed.

Look at the White Scars differences with the Mantis Warriors.

Look at the diffrences between the Ultramarines, the Fire Angels, the Mortifactors and the Howling Griffons.

The Blood Angels are if anything the exception given the multitude of examples we have.

And even then the Flesh Tearers have a different culture than the Blood Angels due to their homeworld. The Angels Vermillion are noted to be different in addition to the Blood Drinkers. The Blood angels Sucessors are not straight clones of the original chapter.



Please stop modifying your posts after ive already replied to them, it makes having a coherant discussion very difficult.

No, I have always posted like such in order to reply to multiple posts and correct spelling errors. I am not changing it.

And may I ask you to not double post?

Maidel
11-01-2011, 21:51
Do you know what.

There was a reason why I stopped posting here - it was because of the general unpleasntness of having conversations with people here.

Lord_Crull
11-01-2011, 21:52
Do you know what.

There was a reason why I stopped posting here - it was because of the general unpleasntness of having conversations with people here.

If there has been an unpleasant nature in this conversation then I apologize, but me disagreeing with you and then supporting my position with quotes and arguments is completely within my rights as a poster.

Askil the Undecided
11-01-2011, 23:49
Maidel, it isn't a discussion if you refuse to prove anything or refine your claim, it's an argument. Those are by definition nasty and are thus discouraged by mods and suchlike.

Claiming genetic determinacy for things is very short sighted indeed, as if genetics = culture then by extention of your logic all space marines would be identical to their gene-lines brothers.

It's tranparently obvious that while genetics have an effect on culture (a group who have a particular set of characteristics will act on them) generally technology and history are more important in determining a culture's development.

You seem to be claiming that all chapters are genetically destined to act like the "legion" chapters they were founded from, this simply isn't true the Black Templars and Imperial Fists are a fine example of this, as are the ultramarines successors the Iron snakes and Mortifactors.

The Inquisition is investigating the BA because they are secretive and unstable, not because of their exceptions to the application of Codex formations.

The Inquisition is investigating the SW because of their staunch independance, highly visible mutations and the highly anti-authoritarian fenrisian warrior code they took from their homeworld not their non-adherence to the codex.

Where and how you learn to function as a sentient being has a far larger impact to how you act than who you are genetically, one does not inherit religious predjudices, cultural preconceptions or personal preferences from their DNA.

Aliarzathanil
12-01-2011, 07:19
Genetics do determine quite a bit about a chapters behavior. The Ultramarine successors aren't really good examples of that, however, as they come from a stable geneseed with no real mutations. They're sort of a blank slate in that regard. In those cases their environment and experiences will shape them. It's hard to know what effects the geneseed has on other foundings as so the lion's share are Ultramarine or unknown. We do have some examples though:

The Fleshtearers already had a culture of well before they settled on a homeworld. Their savagery and bloodthirstiness was part of the reason they chose their homeworld. They were fleet based before that.

The Lamentors tried to escape their genetic legacy, but it appears they will end up much like the Blood Angles.

While the Blood Angel successors aren't pure clones, they do share a lot of the same tendancies.

The Black Templars aggressiveness is speculated to be a result of a genetic divergence.

Your guess is as good as mine (but no better) as to how a Space Wolf successor would act, but it didn't work out when it was attempted.

Now, if you want to believe that culture is the most important factor (as your example of the Mortifactors suggests), why do White Scar successors tend toward rapid assault (Rampagers, Marauders) and Raven Guard successors are noted for employing tactics similar to their parent chapter (Hawk Lords... Well, that's all I have right now)? it seems that. In all likelihood, both can play a role.

jacktheinedible
12-01-2011, 08:51
How interesting, a nature vs nurture arguement about space marines....

i'd imagine the answer is much like it is in the real world, a bit of both.

Continuing the idea of a chapter going renegade, i'd like to propose a potential scenario

A blood angel successor chapter, whose genetics lead them to a tendancy towards close assault and occasionaly bouts of blood thirst and insanity. Combined with a homeworld where taking "trophies" from foes is commonplace (lets go with skulls, to be grimdark), winning at all costs is promoted and where the lives of people who can fight are the only ones considered valuable.

So now we get a whole bunch of superhumans, who like to stab people, go crazy sometimes, decorate their armour with skulls, and don't give a hoot about civilian collateral damage, and to top it off, sometimes have a post battle drink off of their opponents blood (remember that marines can gain memories from consuming DNA, so there could be tactical merit to this).

This chapter eventually falling to khorne seems quite possible, or even just be labelled as renegades due to one too many massacres of civilians for trival tactical advantages.

Tada, genetics + culture = fun for all

Maidel
12-01-2011, 14:02
Maidel, it isn't a discussion if you refuse to prove anything or refine your claim, it's an argument. Those are by definition nasty and are thus discouraged by mods and suchlike.

Im not going to get into this further - but I would like to point out if you had actually read my posts not only have I provided 2 quotes from GW codexes to support my 'claim', but I also have refined my position at least twice and admitted I made a mistake about another part (salamanders).

Hence why I was trying to have a reasoned debate, rather than a semantics arguement.

However above me, someone has made my point far better than I could, so I will leave it in his hands.

Lord_Crull
12-01-2011, 14:17
The Fleshtearers already had a culture of well before they settled on a homeworld. Their savagery and bloodthirstiness was part of the reason they chose their homeworld. They were fleet based before that.


It's still quite different than the Blood Angels.


why do White Scar successors tend toward rapid assault (Rampagers, Marauders)

They do? I'ver never heard of the Rampagers and Maraders combat doctrines. Last time I checked we have barely any information on them other than their name and color scheme.


and Raven Guard successors are noted for employing tactics similar to their parent chapter (Hawk Lords... Well, that's all I have right now)?

Where does it say that? The Hawk Lords are speculated to be a Raven Guard sucessor, but they specialize in Thunderhawks, not guerilla warfare or pin-point drop pod assaults.

Col. Dash
12-01-2011, 14:21
Rather than reading it all. Quite a few chapters, even those of UM decent break with the codex on numbers. They have to or they would be out of full battle brothers very quick.

Marines Errant for example- a chapter that is ALWAYS on crusade. Many of its companies do not make contact with the rest of the chapter for years and decades at a time and each company does it's own recruiting. So not even they have a full idea of how many marines in armor they have. Black Templars are in the same boat.

Do remember though, there is examples of this being taken to the extreme, look at Huron with his 3500 marines in armor and his attempt to recreate a whole new marine legion like times of old to pacify the Maelstrom for the Empire. That didnt work out too well.

Castigator
12-01-2011, 14:34
I think the Space Marine Codex makes it fairly clear that the Adeptus Terra is not enforcing the Codex. Thus: There isn't a single Chapter that follows the Codex because they have to do it.

However, it's a fairly standardized and proven way of military organisation for Space Marines. Thus: you will find a majority of Space Marine Chapters that adhere to it to some degree because they want to/because it makes sense.

Likewise, you will find similar/parallel ways of organizing armed forces around the world... e.g. divided in Squads led by a Sergeant or equivalent, grouped again in something more or less a platoon. Also, divisions into Air Force, Military, Navy, Military Policy, etc.. , Even the marks for military rank are similar. The rank of a "Major-General" exists in over 30 countries worldwide, usually across different "forces" (under slightly different names) and in the vast majority, it's considered a "two-star-general" with an insignia showing "two stars" or two similar icons.

Especially in the Nato, where armed forces often train together or even operate together (e.g. Afghanistan), mirror/parallel structures make things alot easier and have proven their worth.

Nothing is, strictly speaking, stopping.. say.. Canada or Italy.. to organise their armed forces in Space Wolf-style War companies or a BT-style Crusade.
But frankly, they don't. Same with Space Marines and the Codex.

Hedgehobbit
12-01-2011, 16:08
One thing confuses me. From what I've read, there was a codex before and during the Heresy. It detailed how the per-Heresy armies were formed. Sure, it was more flexible and less stupid but it existed. The IG, as far as I can tell, still follows this older codex since their organization didn't change significantly. However, when Papasmurf wrote the Codex Astartes, did he add to the older codex (like some fluff seem to imply since others added after he died) or did he write a brand new Codex that just applies to the Space Marines? If he simply added to it, wouldn't that give other SM chapters the ability to pick and choose different verses to support a wider variety of organizations and such to keep from being totally branded a non-codex chapter?

My understanding was the that Space Wolves rejected Papasmurf's codex but instead decided to keep following the older Codex. So, in a sense, they are still loyal to "the Codex", just the older more better, closer to the Emperor, one.

Lord_Crull
12-01-2011, 16:15
One thing confuses me. From what I've read, there was a codex before and during the Heresy. It detailed how the per-Heresy armies were formed. Sure, it was more flexible and less stupid but it existed. The IG, as far as I can tell, still follows this older codex since their organization didn't change significantly. However, when Papasmurf wrote the Codex Astartes, did he add to the older codex (like some fluff seem to imply since others added after he died) or did he write a brand new Codex that just applies to the Space Marines? If he simply added to it, wouldn't that give other SM chapters the ability to pick and choose different verses to support a wider variety of organizations and such to keep from being totally branded a non-codex chapter?

My understanding was the that Space Wolves rejected Papasmurf's codex but instead decided to keep following the older Codex. So, in a sense, they are still loyal to "the Codex", just the older more better, closer to the Emperor, one.

There was no Codex Pre-Heresy, there was no standardisation at all. where are you getting that from?

The Space Wolves organization was formed from their own traditions. Not any Pre-Heresy Codex.

In fact some Legions, like the Imperial Fists where noted to get more flexible by adopting the Codex.

ForgottenLore
12-01-2011, 16:31
A recent thread on here, I don't know which one, mentioned the Codex Imperialis (I think) and another title as pre heresy tomes of military doctrine.

I don't know what sources those posters were getting their information from or anything, I just know they were mentioned on this board.

found the thread, here are some posts from it.

This is a bit off topic, but I was reading an old WD (126 IIRC) where it talks about the Codex Imperialis which was the Codex that SMs followed before the Codex Astartes was written. Is this still part of the fluff?

But since that Codex calls for a SM Regiment to have 9 companies plus attached stuff (like Scouts), it seems similar to the Codex Astartes but gives a little more leeway on what each company can field.


The "book of doctrine" for Space Marines has been variously called the Codex Imperialis, the Codex Astartes and the Index Astartes. At various times, these names have applied to the doctrinal manual of not just the Space Marines, but to the Imperial military in general - hence why the flat grey beloved of the Imperial Guard is called Codex Grey - it's the standard grey specified by the Codex in lieu of a specific camouflage pattern.


I thought the Codex Astartes was written by Papa Smurf after the Heresy. Was there some sort of Codex before then? If so, what was it called? That old article implied that the Space Wolves followed the original Codex even though the don't follow the new one.


Again, I've never read the article hedgehobbgit was talking about but there is apparently SOME evidence of a pre-heresy codex of some sort.

Lord_Crull
12-01-2011, 16:56
A recent thread on here, I don't know which one, mentioned the Codex Imperialis (I think) and another title as pre heresy tomes of military doctrine.

I don't know what sources those posters were getting their information from or anything, I just know they were mentioned on this board.

found the thread, here are some posts from it.







Again, I've never read the article hedgehobbgit was talking about but there is apparently SOME evidence of a pre-heresy codex of some sort.

If there was a Codex Imperialis it would have been changed since going by the index Astartes and Horus Heresy novels each Legion followed their own organization.

Hedgehobbit
12-01-2011, 18:24
There was no Codex Pre-Heresy, there was no standardisation at all. where are you getting that from?
It was an article in WD 126 by Andy Chambers about the organization of Heresy SMs for Epic (which was set during the Heresy in that version). There really wasn't any standardisation per se, each Regiment had three Battalions but each Battalion could have three companies containing whatever you wanted. Forex, a company could have three tac squads, three assault squads and three predators or nine Land Raiders or six land speeders and three devastator squads, etc. There was really no limits or restrictions except for the total number of certain rare units (recon land speeders forex).

The article gives typical breakdowns for Space Wolves, Ultramarines and Dark Angels IIRC.

Anyway, I guess that article has be defluffified. What is the rule for fluff overruling other fluff?

Lord_Crull
12-01-2011, 18:43
Anyway, I guess that article has be defluffified. What is the rule for fluff overruling other fluff?

There is no real rule. But by the time the Index Astartes and Heresy books had been written that article was most definitely not in use. The Organization of the Space Wolves was wildly different compared to the Death Guard or the Alpha Legion.

Bonzai
12-01-2011, 19:23
To the OP:

The answer is that any chapter that doesn't follow the codex, is viewed with suspicion at least, or labeled Traitor Excomunicatus at worst. In particular, they closely monitor the tithing of Geneseed. If there are any irregularities, then there has to be a VERY good reason, or the inquisition will come knocking.

Spoilers: Regarding the Badab War

Huron was infact attempting to grow the Astral Claws up to legion size, in order to better pacify the Maelstrom and police the surrounding systems. Hence the Iquisitorial investigation, and them shooting it down before they could discover their secret.

I imagine that chapters do go over the acceptable numbers from time to time. I imagine that they are then urged to take on particularly dangerous asignments at that point.

Lastly, I do recall reading some where that the Inquisition views the Salamanders with suspicion. However it had more to do with their aberrant appearance than their irregular orginization. As a chapter, their record is spot less, and their structure actually brings them to less than 1,000 marines (roughly 830, not including Librarians, Tech Marines, and Chaplains).

ForgottenLore
12-01-2011, 20:28
I got the impression from IA9 that the biggest problem with Huron wasn't the number of space marines he had (though that was an issue) but that he was putting the local guard and PDF forces directly and permanently under space marine command. The size of the Astral Claws was certainly a factor, but not the deciding one.

There was also the issue of Huron absorbing the survivors of other chapters into his own that set up red flags when it was finally discovered. Creating more recruits than you are supposed to is one thing, but actually combining 2 separate chapters back into one organization is a no-no.

Ultimately, the impression from the Badab war is that what screwed Huron over was the machinations of his political rivals and that is the real deciding factor on how far a chapter can go in diverging from the codex, how much political influence can you gather to keep everyone quiet.

Bonzai
12-01-2011, 22:07
Politics=>anything.

Ultimately, the straw that broke the camels back was Huron disrupting the important trade routes. That though may have eventually been forgiven. Attempting to create your own legion on top of that makes you a threat. Without politics, he might have pulled it off. Might have even become a hero.

Iracundus
12-01-2011, 22:39
It's a combination of several factors:

1) Refusing Imperial tithes and reserving them for use by the Astral Claws and their own allies

2) Putting PDF and IG forces under direct Space Marine command, and directly governing worlds. This looks incredibly suspicious as it is virtually secessionist private empire building.

3) In IA9 it says only after initial hostilities did it come to light that the Astral Claws were trying to build themselves up to Legion strength.

4) Getting other Chapters to join in this kind of behavior and firing on Imperial forces

The combination of all 4 makes it look like a mini-Heresy in the making, or at the least like someone trying to carve away their own private empire (which ultimately is what Huron was trying to do when he basically said he would keep all resources and forces in his area and refuse to aid the rest of the Imperium ). Even if originally Huron was doing so in order to better able to launch attacks into the Maelstrom or defend against raids, his centralizing of political, economic, and military power under him and the Astral Claws, refusal to countenance any investigation or involvement from other Imperial institutions and his violent response to these other Imperial forces sealed his fate. His view of Space Marines over the rest of humanity wouldn't have won him any sympathy from other Imperial groups.

ForgottenLore
12-01-2011, 22:46
Without politics, he might have pulled it off. Might have even become a hero.

Yeah, very much the impression I get is that things could easily have gone a little different and the Badad sector ends up a lot like the Kingdom of Ultramar.

The Ultramarines have the connections, rep and power to pull it off, Huron didn't.

Iracundus
12-01-2011, 22:53
Huron tried to do too much too quickly. In IA9, there is a little bit about his actions and behavior when the Imperial attack into the Maelstrom had to be stopped.

It sounded like he wanted to do something great and noteworthy within his lifetime, such as conquer/purge the Maelstrom, and blamed his earlier failure to do so on lack of Imperial support and strength. Therefore he took to amassing power to himself, perhaps telling himself he was doing this so he could have another go at the Maelstrom, or to build a bastion of Imperial power like Ultramar. However the manner in which he went about doing so, ignoring the normal humans and other Imperial institutions that had "failed" him earlier, only alienated the rest of the Imperium.

The realm of Ultramar didn't become the way it is overnight. For the Astral Claws to have a similar realm would be difficult given they are not First Founding and would likely have taken a lot longer, under several Chapter Masters, rather than just in one Chapter Master's lifetime.

DantesInferno
13-01-2011, 00:09
To the OP:

The answer is that any chapter that doesn't follow the codex, is viewed with suspicion at least, or labeled Traitor Excomunicatus at worst. In particular, they closely monitor the tithing of Geneseed. If there are any irregularities, then there has to be a VERY good reason, or the inquisition will come knocking.

I was under the impression (and this may well be wrong) that the tithe of gene-seed is a requirement imposed on the Astartes by the Administratum, not necessarily by the Codex Astartes.

Likewise, I doubt that Huron's refusal to provide tithes on the resources of the Badab sector was a breach of the Codex Astartes.

Other Imperial bodies (Administratum/Inquisition) don't have a particular interest in monitoring breaches of the Codex Astartes - compliance with the Codex is an internal Astartes matter. What they do care about is breaches of the Chapter's obligations to the Imperium. While these breaches may also be breaches of the tenets of the Codex, that isn't what is being sanctioned.

ForgottenLore
13-01-2011, 01:10
Huron tried to do too much too quickly.

Definitely


such as conquer/purge the Maelstrom, and blamed his earlier failure to do so on lack of Imperial support and strength.

To be fair he did have a fairly legitimate gripe on that score. He repeatedly started to have success at purging the maelstrom only to have most of his forces redeployed by the imperium when he was only half way done and setting him back to square one. Not hard to see how someone could become angry and bitter about that and decide to take matters more directly into his own hands.

On another note. It is also worth mentioning how the Astartes would do a lot to police themselves without the administratum's involvement. To the astartes, the autonomy of the space marine chapters is one of their most important rights, in order to prevent the high lords and the administratum from interfering in astartes affairs other chapters would likely be pro-active in dealing with deviant chapters that might draw the attention of the inquisition.

Iracundus
13-01-2011, 01:33
On another note. It is also worth mentioning how the Astartes would do a lot to police themselves without the administratum's involvement. To the astartes, the autonomy of the space marine chapters is one of their most important rights, in order to prevent the high lords and the administratum from interfering in astartes affairs other chapters would likely be pro-active in dealing with deviant chapters that might draw the attention of the inquisition.

Not in the case of the Badab War. In that instance, the issue of autonomy became the reason why some of the marines sided with Huron.

The Anarchist
13-01-2011, 01:52
personaly I feel Huron's actions for the most part in building up to Babad War is justified, he's a man who is trying to do a hard task and being constantly re-directed. if he hadn't been foolish in firing on the Inquisition he might have been able to pacify the Malestorm, but for tasks like that larger than chapter forces are needed, thats why i feel the ability to conqorer and pacify areas of the Imperium need larger bodies than Chapters. yes the Imperium is struggling to hold onto what it has, but often we can see in times of our own world history, Empires that ahve risked creating large armies (often under dictators or individuals invested with a risky level of power) and used them to conquorer new teritory and pacify existing trouble areas of the empire actualy takes stress off he general empire as the number of threats is reduced.
Had Huron been succsesful in building a larger than chapter force and in fact pacifying the Malestorm and then reveiled that had had built a legion, might not we see a very differnent reaction to what he had done. as is often the case succses will create forgivness for a number of sins. Chapter Masters with ideas might look at Huron as an example as to how not to go about creating a legion, but use it as a cautionary example as to how it can be done.

Iracundus
13-01-2011, 02:16
Given his reaction with the events that did occur, there is no gurantee that success with the Maelstrom would have been enough to sate Huron. Imagine then trying to get him to reduce numbers or relinquish the extra power he has gained. It might have been the Badab War still, just on a larger scale.

The Anarchist
13-01-2011, 03:57
Huron could well have then become the tyrant he would anyway, looking at Ceaser, Bonaparte, Alexander the Great, are all prime examples of this. however almost all earth great conqurors have expanded as far as they belive they can and then become tyrants, or oppresive. however Huron would want the fame and power i agree, but theres always somewhere new, somewhere more for him to be needed in the imperium, so he would never really get the chance to solidfy and then become a tyrant in the same way. whilst this might create the same problems that occured for the orginal Legions such as Iron Warriors (garrisoning many worlds) or the Dark Angles (leaving an embittered remenant of their force behind) they would not have the same issues of many legions. no chapter master however big his ego would feel personaly abandoned by the Emperor such as Horus, or that their legion is destined to end up eternal polcie of the Imperium and ensuring the tithe is paid. so whilst Huron or any other chapter master who grows his chapter into a legion might feel rather pridefull and arrogant in their power, they wouldn't ahve the issues of the primarchs, and so they could rebel but woudl have less likelyhood or desire absed upon resentment as to their lot.

Iracundus
13-01-2011, 04:20
There is the slippery slope. Suppose he had succeeded in the Maelstrom. Given what we know of his personality, wouldn't it be likely that he would then perhaps seek even greater power and resources under his control to pursue the next objective (again ostensibly for the sake of the Imperium)? It can be an endless process of power accrual, only for him to finally still snap when other institutions eventually at some point say "no more".

The division of Legions into Chapters was to precisely to prevent Space Marines from getting into such runaway grandiosity, and to prevent the Space Marines from essentially launching what amounts to a coup over the civilian structure of the Imperium. We see in how Huron ran his realm a mirror of how the Chaos Space Marines run theirs: Space Marines as an overlord class using the rest of the normal humans as essentially slave labor or human shields. The issue is ultimately one of civilian control over the military and on Space Marines serving humanity (as described in a Blood Angel's self reflection in the 2nd edition Wargear book), and not Space Marines serving themselves at the expense of humanity.

ForgottenLore
13-01-2011, 04:23
Huron could well have then become the tyrant he would anyway, looking at Ceaser, Bonaparte, Alexander the Great, are all prime examples of this.

At the risk of side tracking this thread, I agree with your point, but not your examples. Julius Caesar did set himself up as absolute ruler of Rome but the Republic had basically already collapsed into anarchy and had been torn apart by civil wars for decades. During his rule he was incredibly lenient to his enemies (compared to his contemporaries) and spent basically all of his time and money trying to fix the infrastructure and economy of Rome so that people weren't starving to death (and consolidating his power in the process) maybe he would have turned tyrannical later but he was killed before he could really secure his position. (I assume you meant Julius, Augustus also has a bad rep but it is more deserved, he also spent most of his reign improving things for the citizens of Rome, but he was absolutely brutal to his enemies early in life, curiously he mellowed later and was much more forgiving once there was no possibility of anyone opposing him).

In 40K terms Guillman actually fills the role of the Caesars. He swept in during a period if immense chaos and anarchy, wrangled all the opposing factions, either with force or diplomacy and re-established order and at least a measure of prosperity.

Alexander on the other hand was always a bully and a tyrant who never bothered to actually rule anything. He was a brilliant tactician, strategist and general who conquered the world and didn't know what to do with it. Most of his campaigning was spent reconquering lands he had already beaten because he never tried to consolidate or really hold anything. He was essentially the leader of the most successful biker gang in all of history, they would roll into town, beat up anyone who resisted, take what they wanted and leave, only to come back and do it again in a few years.

Can't speak about Napoleon though, my interest in history largely ends with the fall of the western Empire.


Suppose he had succeeded in the Maelstrom. Given what we know of his personality, wouldn't it be likely that he would then perhaps seek even greater power ...
True, if he had succeeded in pacifying the Maelstron the best course of action for the Imperium would have been to declare him one of the greatest heroes of the Imperium and then sent him on a series of impossible to complete suicide missions to deplete the might he had built up and hopefully result in him dying heroicly for the Imperium. If he then refused it would have been an even bigger war than it was.

AndrewGPaul
13-01-2011, 10:01
It was an article in WD 126 by Andy Chambers about the organization of Heresy SMs for Epic (which was set during the Heresy in that version). There really wasn't any standardisation per se, each Regiment had three Battalions but each Battalion could have three companies containing whatever you wanted. Forex, a company could have three tac squads, three assault squads and three predators or nine Land Raiders or six land speeders and three devastator squads, etc. There was really no limits or restrictions except for the total number of certain rare units (recon land speeders forex).

The article gives typical breakdowns for Space Wolves, Ultramarines and Dark Angels IIRC.

Anyway, I guess that article has be defluffified. What is the rule for fluff overruling other fluff?

The Index Astartes is simply what the Codex Astartes was called in some earlier game books. As usual, portions of the fanbase seem to fall into the "Rogue Trader = Heresy-era" trap, but that's not the case. As for that article on Heresy-era Space Marine armies, there's no need to de-canonise it; it doesn't really contradict anything else. The Horus Heresy novel series doesn't really give any information on the organisation of the Legions, other than "Squad -> Company -> big fuzzy blob -> Legion". That covers a multitude of sins.

As an aside, that "three companies makes a battalion, three battalions makes a Regiment" organisation is what became the "Codex" Chapter formation - nine companies, plus an additional Scout company. There's a page of Jes Goodwin's concept art somewhere (I think from a "History of the Space Marines in 40K" article from WD when the plastic Marines were released) showing the then-new company colours, grouped into three groups of three (and dis0played by painting the entire right arm, not just the shoulder pad rim, but that's not relevant).

The Anarchist
13-01-2011, 18:55
@forgotten lore, I'm a classical civilisations student myself so fully agree with and understand your statements about Alexander and Ceaser. I meant them both as well known examples of a conqeror in our own world hsitory that when they ahve assembled large armies in their Empire and use them pacify or conquoer often tend to later use this army to create for themselves a power base or set themselves up as a tyrant (and i mean this only as a general name for ruler of an empire under one individuals control). In refernce to Huron many tyrants end up ushering in eras of stability that allows growth and expansion within their empire. however the Imperium is just too big to be controlled by one man, the Emperor had 18 sons to help him remember and a much smaller population than modern Imperium. so Huron would never have been able to se himself up as a new Imperator, meerly a powerfull individual in a similar manner to Macharius or any other Warmaster/Lord Commander of a sector

The Highlander
13-01-2011, 20:07
its always struck me that the chance of the Imperium ever being anything but a defensive force and entity was created by the breakdown into chapters. so if any chapter master ever reached this same thought and decided to follow the orginal idea of the Emperor and build as big a force as he could and set out to conquor for the Imperium he would act upon building much larger than a Chapter 1000 (battle brothers or just marines in any shape or form)

Thatís what Lugft Huron tried to do; it didnít work out very well.