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wolfspider
12-01-2011, 17:37
So I was thinking about this last night as I was looking through the Chaos codex and wondered how would Games Workshop do a legion codex? My favorite chaos legion is the Emperors Children so what would needed to be added to make them a valid force in each of the 4 categories (HQ, Elite, Troops, Fast Attack and Heavy Support)?

Castigator
12-01-2011, 17:53
Probably something like this:

HQ: Chaos Lord, Chaos Sorcerer, Daemon Prince, Greater Daemon, Special Characters.
Elite: Possessed, Chosen, Terminators (with options for Icon of Slannesh), Dreadnaught
Troops: Chaos Space Marines (with options for Icon of Slannesh), Noise Marines, Lesser Daemons.
Fast Attack: Raptors, Bikers (with options for Icon of Slannesh)
Heavy Support: Predator, Landraider, Vindicator, Defiler, Obliterators.

Also, pink paint.


Perfect!

Bunnahabhain
12-01-2011, 17:54
The ability to count to 5 , for a start.

GW will, (and should) never do legion books. FW might.

GW should do a Codex: CSM with enough variety, options and internal balance that legion type forces are possible. It doesn't need to be called Codex: Emperors children, it just needs to have sufficient relevant background that players can decide for themselves how to build an EC force.

GrogDaTyrant
12-01-2011, 18:00
The ability to count to 5 , for a start.

GW will, (and should) never do legion books. FW might.

GW should do a Codex: CSM with enough variety, options and internal balance that legion type forces are possible. It doesn't need to be called Codex: Emperors children, it just needs to have sufficient relevant background that players can decide for themselves how to build an EC force.

While I agree with you on this, I think it should also be applied to loyalists as well.

Castigator
12-01-2011, 18:02
While I agree with you on this, I think it should also be applied to loyalists as well.

And to Xenos too I suppose. Three-book 40K!

Bunnahabhain
12-01-2011, 18:10
While I agree with you on this, I think it should also be applied to loyalists as well.

See my sig. So do I.

Gatsby
12-01-2011, 18:11
And to Xenos too I suppose. Three-book 40K!

so only loyalists are deserving of multiple books?

TheRatsInTheWalls
12-01-2011, 18:11
And to Xenos too I suppose. Three-book 40K!

In his defense, it would be much easier to combine the loyalist marines into one codex, than to make a Codex: Xenos. Up until this most recent expansion the main difference in the forces was the models. A Codex: Space Marines with a sufficiently balanced and characterful Chapter Traits section could server.
All that said, I have no problem with having so many marine codices beyond the way they slow the release schedule.

Castigator
12-01-2011, 18:22
so only loyalists are deserving of multiple books?

Why? Xenos currently have just as many.

Gatsby
12-01-2011, 18:27
Why? Xenos currently have just as many.

yea but the playstyle is QUITE different as are the unit choices, whereas marines are rather similar and with something like 80% of the unit choices being the same everyone just codex jumps anyway.

Korraz
12-01-2011, 18:56
Pssst, a tip from your Blood Angel Bro, fellow Necron...he is trolling your circuits.

Nothing needs to be added. Grand Unified Legion/Chapter dexes are a dream. A great dream, but just a dream. In any case, Emperor's Children can be fielded fluffy and valid.

Perfect Organism
12-01-2011, 20:21
In the unlikely event of chaos sub-codexes, I'd rather see something like the Servants of Decay or Servants of Slaughter from the Siege of Vraks books. A mixture of daemons, chaos marines, cultists, mutants, warmachines and possibly some odd stuff like xenos mercenaries.

For Slaanesh forces, I'd go with something like:

HQ: Chaos Marine Lord of Slaanesh, Chaos Marine Sorceror of Slaanesh, Daemon Prince of Slaanesh, Keeper of Secrets, Grand Cultist of Slaanesh, various special characters (including Lucius the Eternal).

Elites: Chosen of Slaanesh, Possessed Marines/Daemonhosts, Chaos Terminators, Emperors Children Dreadnaughts, Xenos Mercenaries.

Troops: Cultists, Chaos Marines (with Fabius as an option for an upgrade character), Noise Marines, Daemonettes.

Fast Attack: Chaos Marine Bikers (with the Doom Rider as an option for an upgrade character), Daemonettes on Steeds of Slaanesh, Fiends of Slaanesh, Raptors, Chaos Spawn.

Heavy Support: Defilers, Predators, Land Raiders, Vindicators.

I'd give Noise Marines some kind of area-effect buff power (maybe anything deep-striking within 12" of them can assault on the same turn they arrive or something) and let Dreads take sonic weapons. Possessed should get powers generally in keeping with those of Slaaneshi daemons (rending claws and fleet of foot seem like reasonable ones). I'd give the Xenos Mercenaries statlines suspiciously similar to Eldar, but avoid actually stating what exactly they are (or maybe give a range of options including some vague hints about decendants of the eldar who didn't make it out of the Eye of Terror).

Gorbad Ironclaw
12-01-2011, 20:38
Mostly you would just need to make Noise Marine versions of every choice in the Codex. If it truly is supposed to be Codex: Emperors Children then everyone will be a proper Noise Marine. So Noise Marine terminators, veterans, bikers, havocs, etc. Add in some specialised wargear, a couple of special characters, Slaanesh demons and maybe a demon engine or two and you are all set.

Seismic
12-01-2011, 21:12
A simple solution, in my opinion, would be to combine the current Daemon codex with a modified cult entry from the default Chaos marine codex.

The cult section could essentially be similar to the Wolf guard entry in the Space wolf codex; Multiple weapons ,equipments and positions in the FoC , with a modified mark option to represent all 4. Add a couple more Daemon engines and a 2 transport option ; Land Raider & Rhinos. Keep the possibility of a pure Daemon list open , add more defined Mono lists possible , One marine entry to the existing book (Maybe 4 Unique Hq options), Done. By doing so you've killed two birds with one stone :The viability of a Daemon book, the direction (or lack thereof) of the regular Chaos codex.

Seeing how the 4 gods already have a template in the Daemon book, i don't see why anyone would want to duplicate that theme again.

daemonicemission
13-01-2011, 01:21
Let Noise Marines TURN IT UP TO 11! Sonic Weapons get +2 Str to shots, -1 to AP, but Gets Hot! Whatever, I don't care rule wise, I just want to declare that multiple times during a game.

Hellebore
13-01-2011, 01:29
So I was thinking about this last night as I was looking through the Chaos codex and wondered how would Games Workshop do a legion codex? My favorite chaos legion is the Emperors Children so what would needed to be added to make them a valid force in each of the 4 categories (HQ, Elite, Troops, Fast Attack and Heavy Support)?

Emperortalons, Emperormissiles and Glaive Imperators?



Why? Xenos currently have just as many.

Well that's falacious reasoning.:rolleyes:

Codex: Eldar, Tau, and Orks would be like having Codex: Imperium.

Defining groups based on 'human' and 'non-human' is ridiculous and only done to try and prove a point that doesn't exist.

Space marines are Imperial forces. Ergo, if there are space marine codicies out there then there should be Codex: Biel Tann Striking Scorpions of the black Shadow, Codex: Vior'la Sept Tau fast reconaissance cadre, Codex: Carmadas Ork Wing boy Waaagh! and so on.

Space marines are part of the imperial war machine - they are from a single Faction in 40k.

If Imperial forces were treated like say the Eldar codex, space marine squads would be single elites choices in a guard army.

EDIT: In fact the eldar codex is pretty much a perfect example of how a codex: imperium would work - guardsmen every where, tacticals and terminators as elites, jump packers and bikes as FA, devestators as heavy support. Pretty much filling the roles that aspect warriors fill currently.

Hellebore

Seismic
13-01-2011, 01:30
Let Noise Marines TURN IT UP TO 11! Sonic Weapons get +2 Str to shots, -1 to AP, but Gets Hot! Whatever, I don't care rule wise, I just want to declare that multiple times during a game.

One louder (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeOXsA8sp_E)

Pontiff
13-01-2011, 01:33
I always wanted to re-label the pots on my amp to go up to 11... for that final push over the edge! :)

Mott
13-01-2011, 02:56
Emperortalons, Emperormissiles and Glaive Imperators? Hellebore

Better yet, Blades of the Children, Childcannon, and the Childrenclaws!

DarkReaver
13-01-2011, 03:11
Better yet, Blades of the Children, Childcannon, and the Childrenclaws!

Then how about Sonic Blades, Sonic Cannons, Sonic Claws, Sonic Missiles etc (you get the idea) and we can all paint blue hedgehogs on our weapons.

Garven Dreis
13-01-2011, 05:09
Don't forget Warp-poison which works like poison only slightly different, and 'Sonic Armour'.

On a serious note, I wish they would let an EC Lord take a Doom Siren, would make my girlfriend happy.

AndrewGPaul
13-01-2011, 07:49
Have the Emperor's Children finally been retconned into being all Noise Marines, all the time? How boring.Noise Marines should be a sub-cult within the Legion, not the defining feature of the army. I'm all for having "upgrade squad to Noise Marines for +x points per model; replace bolters with Sonic Blasters" or similar being an option of every squad, but I don't think it should be mandatory.

Gatsby
13-01-2011, 08:01
Have the Emperor's Children finally been retconned into being all Noise Marines, all the time? How boring.Noise Marines should be a sub-cult within the Legion, not the defining feature of the army. I'm all for having "upgrade squad to Noise Marines for +x points per model; replace bolters with Sonic Blasters" or similar being an option of every squad, but I don't think it should be mandatory.

They're not all noise marines, some are noise terminators, others noise raptors... Edit: OH and noise havoks and noise bikers (they remove their mufflers you know.)


But yes, the defining feature of the Emperors Children is that they like noise... and drugs... and sex... and excess... especially excess noise... while having sex... while heavily jacked...

AndrewGPaul
13-01-2011, 08:51
"They're not all noise marines, some are noise terminators, others noise raptors..."

Raptors and Terminators are still Marines, so what you've just said is "They're not all Noise Marines, some are Noise Marines, some are Noise Marines, others Noise Marines". :) What I was meaning by "Noise Marine" was basically "Mark of Slaanesh and a sonic weapon".

Ugh. Not every Emperor's Children Marine needs to be in the Cult of Noise. The original point of them was that they were a single cult dedicated to one particular kind of extreme sensory stimulation.

"the defining feature of the Emperors Children is that they like noise... and drugs... and sex... and excess... especially excess noise... while having sex... while heavily jacked... "

And the defining feature of the Noise Marines is that they like noise. Not noise and drugs and anything else. Just noise. A good Emperor's Children army, IMO, should allow you to have Noise Cult troops, as well as Berserkers (another form of sensory excess) as well as "standard" Chaos Marines. This creeping simplification of the Traitor Legions is rather depressing.

Born Again
13-01-2011, 11:39
And the defining feature of the Noise Marines is that they like noise. Not noise and drugs and anything else. Just noise. A good Emperor's Children army, IMO, should allow you to have Noise Cult troops, as well as Berserkers (another form of sensory excess) as well as "standard" Chaos Marines. This creeping simplification of the Traitor Legions is rather depressing.

I agree with you there, insofar as if I were doing an Emperor's Children codex, it wouldn't be "all noise, all the time". They would be ONE type of excess the Legion explored. It would be perfectly reasonable and possible to do an army made entirely of noise marines and vehicles with sonic weapons, but there should be something more than that.

Thanatos_elNyx
13-01-2011, 11:48
While I am sure GW will never release a dedicated Legion book.
I do feel that they should.

But failing that, a unified codex that has enough versatility to be able to do any Legion would be nice.
What would also be cool is perhaps a special character who allows you to pick units from Codex: Chaos Daemons.
How cool would that be though I know many people don't like Special Characters change army lists (again would never happen as GW now seem to prefer books that are monolithic without reference to other books).

qwertywraith
13-01-2011, 18:13
1 Chaos Codex should be enough if it is versatile. We don't need more of the same stuff just with different adjectives.

But if we are dreaming it would be great to see an EC codex that develops the fluff away from "Everything Noise!" to excess in all things. Yes, lets have the cult of Noise represented: HQ Maestro. Sonic upgrades for tanks. But also Daemonic Engines, Slaanesh Spawn that are WRONG to look at and are actually useful, elites dedicated to martial combat. These guys should be arrogant, twisted, and evil.

Gatsby
13-01-2011, 18:49
Noise is just the easiest to represent without going to far. I mean I'm ALL for it, but having models to represent the marines "having fun" with a few daemonettes on the table, might lose a few players (or at least the parental units ALLOWING them to play.) Same goes for having a marine shooting up, might not come across all that well (although it is shown to a degree with all the vials they have injecting them with drugs.) The bright visual excess is already done. The noise is already there, if you gave them feel no pain then it would show the excess of kinky they love so much.

In closing, there are more aspects to the Emperors Children than Noise marines yes, but the noise marines encompass all of them with a less offensive name than sex marines, heroine marines or Andy Warhol marines. The ability to sell the army without a massive Adult content ahead ranked warning label is pretty important.

nagash66
13-01-2011, 18:55
I would gladly support any codex that would bring Doom Rider back into our lives.

Truly a Emperors children who knew the meaning of excess.

AndrewGPaul
13-01-2011, 19:42
Noise is just the easiest to represent without going to far. I mean I'm ALL for it, but having models to represent the marines "having fun" with a few daemonettes on the table, might lose a few players (or at least the parental units ALLOWING them to play.) Same goes for having a marine shooting up, might not come across all that well (although it is shown to a degree with all the vials they have injecting them with drugs.) The bright visual excess is already done. The noise is already there, if you gave them feel no pain then it would show the excess of kinky they love so much.

In closing, there are more aspects to the Emperors Children than Noise marines yes, but the noise marines encompass all of them with a less offensive name than sex marines, heroine marines or Andy Warhol marines. The ability to sell the army without a massive Adult content ahead ranked warning label is pretty important.

I already mentioned using Berserkers as Emperor's Children obsessed with the sensations of carnage an melee. Plague Marine or Thousand Sons stats represent Marines who've taken massive quantities of drugs; they feel no pain due to the soporifics in their bloodstream, but their reactions are slowed, and the effect on their memory means they can only use the most basic equipment. Obviously those are simply suggestions for using the existing units in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, but a hypothetical Codex: Emperor's Children could have units with similar rules.

No need to bring up childish strawmen of miniatures posed in positions of fornicating and injecting drugs.

(only one "e" in "heroin", by the way)

TheMav80
13-01-2011, 20:10
It is okay for Dark Eldar to use drugs. I think they could give them to the Emperor's Children as well.

Korraz
13-01-2011, 20:18
The Children are on drugs. The effect is just severly diminished by Space Marine physiology, mutation and 10.000 years of abuse.

Col. Dash
13-01-2011, 23:59
Basically I would be happy if the Emperor's Children APOC formation simply becomes the standard list without the 100 points you have to spend and without the maximum number of total units limit. I have a small list I use based off this for friendly games.

qwertywraith
14-01-2011, 22:41
Noise is just the easiest to represent without going to far. I mean I'm ALL for it, but having models to represent the marines "having fun" with a few daemonettes on the table, might lose a few players (or at least the parental units ALLOWING them to play.) Same goes for having a marine shooting up, might not come across all that well (although it is shown to a degree with all the vials they have injecting them with drugs.) The bright visual excess is already done. The noise is already there, if you gave them feel no pain then it would show the excess of kinky they love so much.

In closing, there are more aspects to the Emperors Children than Noise marines yes, but the noise marines encompass all of them with a less offensive name than sex marines, heroine marines or Andy Warhol marines. The ability to sell the army without a massive Adult content ahead ranked warning label is pretty important.

Some things don't need to be represented on the tabletop. Yes the Wolfmarines have giant wolves and wolf pelts and regular wolves and wolf teeth and wolf guns wolf wolf wolf. It is not necessary to have a Space Wolf model playing with puppies or chewing on a rubber bone. The theme of the army is apparent.

For Slaanesh models, consider: elegant nudes on the armour - they don't need any specific detail, just the outline of the human form. Fine detailing like gems, inlays, chains and silks can be modelled on the armour and vehicles. Instead of the harsh spikes of standard CSM what about a smoother look?

Being excessive doesn't mean you need a giant ***** instead of a gun. And adult content? This is a game where a good number of models carry around severed heads, stretch skin still recognisable as a face across their armour or their own face, and has characters floating across the battlefield with their own intestines hanging out.

GW never really established a Slaaneshi look for 40K or fantasy. Tzeneetch have the Aztec, look, Khorne get's stylized and baroque skulls, Nurgle gets sores, rust, the big belly, gasmasks and picklehaube helmets. Slaanesh has gotten some fine models, but as a whole the esthetic has not been explored.