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Metzler123
12-01-2011, 18:33
Hereís a fun one. Skaven weapons teams are allowed to stand and shoot if charged. However, there is always a chance that they will roll a miscast and blow themselves up. So what happens to the charge if they do blow themselves up -- does it fail, or perhaps count as overrun? If overrun, do the chargers roll an additional overrun move from the point of the weapons team, or their original location before the original charge? In either case can they redirect the charge? Also, the weapons teams often blow up with nice big template. So would you place the template with the charging unit in its original position, or have them touching the weapons team as if they charged it (assuming they didnít fail the charge of course. ) I believe the answer to the last one is that the template effect is resolved with the charges still in their original position, since that's how stand and shoot works, but figured I'd throw it in there too.

a18no
12-01-2011, 19:11
Lot of question in there...


Here’s a fun one. Skaven weapons teams are allowed to stand and shoot if charged. However, there is always a chance that they will roll a miscast and blow themselves up.

1- So what happens to the charge if they do blow themselves up -- does it fail, or perhaps count as overrun?
2- If overrun, do the chargers roll an additional overrun move from the point of the weapons team, or their original location before the original charge?
3- In either case can they redirect the charge?
4- Also, the weapons teams often blow up with nice big template. So would you place the template with the charging unit in its original position, or have them touching the weapons team as if they charged it (assuming they didn’t fail the charge of course. )

I believe the answer to the last one is that the template effect is resolved with the charges still in their original position, since that's how stand and shoot works, but figured I'd throw it in there too.

Now!!

The stand and shoot reaction is done prior moving the charger. That will answer your questions 4 and 2 (can't overrun, the charge haven't happen), the template will be place with the charger at their orignial position (they haven't move)

Since the movement of the charge is after, redirect can happen since the target is no longer legit (after all, a first charge then a reaction occured), that will answer 1 and 3. Remember that you can redirect only once (for a total of 2 charge per unit)

Hope that help!

H33D
12-01-2011, 19:41
So what happens to the charge if they do blow themselves up -- does it fail, or perhaps count as overrun? You fail the charge. You can only overrun if you complete the charge.

If overrun, do the chargers roll an additional overrun move from the point of the weapons team, or their original location before the original charge? N/A

In either case can they redirect the charge? No. You can only redirect when your opponent flees.

Also, the weapons teams often blow up with nice big template. So would you place the template with the charging unit in its original position, or have them touching the weapons team as if they charged it (assuming they didn’t fail the charge of course. ) If they explode during the stand and shoot response, then the template 'explosion' would take place and be resolved during that response, not after the chargers move.

Masque
12-01-2011, 20:29
I agree with H33D. The Skaven will blow up before the chargers move. Then the charge will fail. There is not redirect possible because the target did not flee. There is no overrun possible because the charge was not completed.

senoja
12-01-2011, 20:48
i also agree with h33d here redirection is only when a unit flees, plus makes perfect sense when charging an exploding weapon team.

Captain: men kill that poison mortar and the scum carrying it CHARGE!
Skaven : quick quick quick shoot shoot BANG!!!!
Captain woah holy "beep" "beep" "beep" "beep""beep" "beep"

makes sense for it to fail as an explosion would clearly surprise the chargers halting them whilst they gather themselves and pick the selves up and dust off.

Palatine Katinka
12-01-2011, 20:57
Men: Mwahahahaha!
Captain: Come on pull yourselves together it's... Oh sod it, that was hilarious!

DeathlessDraich
12-01-2011, 21:43
. So what happens to the charge if they do blow themselves up -- does it fail, or perhaps count as overrun? .

An impossible answer! :)
A dice roll is my only suggestion.

1) There are no fleers therefore an overrun (from catching the fleers) and a redirect are disallowed.

2) Charge range and the charged enemy's position are now meaningless - so a Failed charge cannot be ascertained.

So a dice roll to decide where the would-be chargers end up is necessary.

MichaelJames
12-01-2011, 22:00
My interpretation of 4) is that the template could potentially touch the charging unit, depending on the range of the shooting unit. Stand and shoot is assumed to take place at maximum range of the weapon system. (p17. "the shooting is resolved normally, assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest ranged weapon").

So I'd move the chargers forward to the point of maximum range and then see if the template hits. this is not inconsistent with a failed charge, as you have to move forward anyway.

Tregar
12-01-2011, 22:23
...now try to answer the same questions with "what happens if your own fanatics destroy one of your units after a charging unit releases the fanatics, but before they complete the charge?" ;)

jaxom
12-01-2011, 22:51
2) Charge range and the charged enemy's position are now meaningless - so a Failed charge cannot be ascertained.


How do you figure? p. 19 makes it pretty clear. You have declared a charge and I declared a reaction. Time for you to make a roll and determine a charge range. Am I in it? Why would you expect one answer if I had fled through a unit of my own troops and you could not reach me as compared to if I had blown myself up?

Masque
12-01-2011, 23:17
If you flee to where I can't get you I do a failed charge which involves getting as close to you as I can. If you blow yourself up where do I failed charge to? We can assume it is your last position but the rules don't actually say.

narrativium
12-01-2011, 23:20
Declare charge, resolve reaction (target is destroyed) - charging unit gets the choice to redirect. Assuming that doesn't work (no alternative targets or Ld roll fails) then the unit would have to make the charge attempt. Since they can't get into contact with the target unit it would be a failed charge.

hamsterwheel
13-01-2011, 01:57
This has been answered in the Rulebook FAQ for Jan 6th 2011.

Q: If I charge an enemy and they are wiped out before the Close
Combat phase, can I overrun? If I can, when does this overrun
occur? (p58)
A: Yes. The overrun occurs at the start of the Close Combat
phase before any blows have been struck

The remaining questions are simple. Redirect is not possible because a Flee! reaction wasn't chosen. The template would only affect the models under the template at the time of the misfire.

Masque
13-01-2011, 02:05
That FAQ question doesn't apply. It assumes a successful charge even if it doesn't use those words.

Lord Inquisitor
13-01-2011, 02:06
That FAQ sort of implies the unit is contacted and wiped out by magic or shooting. I suppose you move up as if you were to make contact and overrun is a possibility.

That said, I'm thinking if a unit declares a stand and shoot reaction, the process is as follows:

1) Unit A declares a Charge.

2) Unit B declares a Stand and Shoot reaction.

3) Unit B destroys itself.

4) Unit A then rolls for charge distance. The charge obviously fails (can't be in range to something destroyed), Unit A moves failed charge distance.

Personally I think it would be eminently sensible to say that after step 3 the charge could be redirected, but as noted you can't quite wrangle this from RAW.

Masque
13-01-2011, 02:07
That's exactly how I would handle it, LI.

htmlord
13-01-2011, 02:09
The FAQ question doesn't fully apply. It stipulates that if you "charge" and enemy, not "attempt to charge" an enemy. An "attempted charge" doesn't turn into a "charge" until after you move chargers and get to grips with your opponent. If they die during their charge reaction, the "charge" cannot occur.

hamsterwheel
13-01-2011, 03:10
I agree that the FAQ Q&A would make a lot more sense if it said successful charge.

I would agree that the charge would fail since charge distance cannot be measured following the loss of the unit being charged.

Synnister
13-01-2011, 03:38
The only conditional for the FAQ ruling is for the target of the charge to be wiped out prior to the CC phase. As the movement phase, which is when the charge response happens, is before the CC phase then the FAQ ruling applies allowing you to redirect. That's the RAW of that ruling.

smithers
13-01-2011, 04:12
The FAQ question doesn't fully apply. It stipulates that if you "charge" and enemy, not "attempt to charge" an enemy. An "attempted charge" doesn't turn into a "charge" until after you move chargers and get to grips with your opponent. If they die during their charge reaction, the "charge" cannot occur.

It seems everyone is agreeing with your take on this but I'm not sure why.

I just re-read the section on Charges, and I didn't find anything to support your assertion. What I found was the exact opposite; that a charge turns into a failed charge if you fail to roll the distance. The section repeatedly refers to "charging unit" and "chargers" before the determination is made whether the charge succeeded. There is not a single use of your quoted phrase "attempt to charge"

According to the BRB, a unit that fails a charge is still a charging unit. Can you please point me to something that says otherwise?

Might be that there is something I have missed somewhere but if not then I think the new FAQ entry totally applies to the OP's question.

smithers
13-01-2011, 04:16
... actually I did find the following phrases:

"attempt to charge into close combat" (Section seems to support that you are definitely charging and attempting to get into CC)

"attempt to complete the charge" (Clearly the unit is charging but the charge may not be completed)


Yeah, I'm pretty convinced that any valid charge is a charge, which may end up being completed and may end up as a failed charge.


Having said all this, I just re-read LI & Hamsterwheel's posts, and I can see calling it a failed charge based on the fact that there is nothing left to measure against. No basis for measuring where something used to be so I guess it is a failed charge afterall.

Lord Inquisitor
13-01-2011, 04:34
The only conditional for the FAQ ruling is for the target of the charge to be wiped out prior to the CC phase. As the movement phase, which is when the charge response happens, is before the CC phase then the FAQ ruling applies allowing you to redirect. That's the RAW of that ruling.

Redirect? Do you mean overrun?


It seems everyone is agreeing with your take on this but I'm not sure why.

I just re-read the section on Charges, and I didn't find anything to support your assertion. What I found was the exact opposite; that a charge turns into a failed charge if you fail to roll the distance. The section repeatedly refers to "charging unit" and "chargers" before the determination is made whether the charge succeeded. There is not a single use of your quoted phrase "attempt to charge"

According to the BRB, a unit that fails a charge is still a charging unit. Can you please point me to something that says otherwise?

Might be that there is something I have missed somewhere but if not then I think the new FAQ entry totally applies to the OP's question.


Let's have a scenario to check I understand what you're saying right.

I declare a charge with a unit of knights against, say, a lone monster. The monster declares a flee reaction, and following the flee, is not caught by the knights, so the knights make a failed charge. The fleeing monster is then shot and killed by a cannon in the shooting phase. Since the knights charged, they can therefore make an overrun in the combat phase?

DeathlessDraich
13-01-2011, 15:45
This has been answered in the Rulebook FAQ for Jan 6th 2011.

Q: If I charge an enemy and they are wiped out before the Close
Combat phase, can I overrun? If I can, when does this overrun
occur? (p58)
A: Yes. The overrun occurs at the start of the Close Combat
phase before any blows have been struck
.

Thanks for quoting this. It adds to the problem - more below**



3) Unit B destroys itself.

4) Unit A then rolls for charge distance. The charge obviously fails (can't be in range to something destroyed), Unit A moves failed charge distance.
.

This is the bit not clarified by the rules. - see below**


. Yeah, I'm pretty convinced that any valid charge is a charge, which may end up being completed and may end up as a failed charge.

Yes of course.


.
Having said all this, I just re-read LI & Hamsterwheel's posts, and I can see calling it a failed charge based on the fact that there is nothing left to measure against. No basis for measuring where something used to be so I guess it is a failed charge afterall.

**
1) 1 criterion for a Failed charge - the charge range < distance to the unit being charged.

2) The charge range is determined at a specific time - after all charge reactions and successful redirects

3) The distance from the charger to the unit to be charged is undefined
since it has been removed from the tabletop.
Distance from (A) to (B) at a particular time cannot be known if point (B) is unknown.

i.e. Where the destroyed S&S unit is at the moment charge range is determined is unknown.

a) It definitely cannot be where the unit was, when it S&S because when applied consistently as a rule, that would cause problems in other circumstances.
b) It definitely cannot be where the charged unit was destroyed because when applied consistently as a rule, that would cause problems in other circumstances.

Please read and consider (a) and (b) carefully before commenting




4) Therefore whether the charge is a Failed charge or successful is unknown

Exactly where the charging unit overruns is also therefore unknown. :)

belgarath97
13-01-2011, 17:02
Hereís a fun one. Skaven weapons teams are allowed to stand and shoot if charged. However, there is always a chance that they will roll a miscast and blow themselves up. So what happens to the charge if they do blow themselves up -- does it fail, or perhaps count as overrun? If overrun, do the chargers roll an additional overrun move from the point of the weapons team, or their original location before the original charge? In either case can they redirect the charge? Also, the weapons teams often blow up with nice big template. So would you place the template with the charging unit in its original position, or have them touching the weapons team as if they charged it (assuming they didnít fail the charge of course. ) I believe the answer to the last one is that the template effect is resolved with the charges still in their original position, since that's how stand and shoot works, but figured I'd throw it in there too.

Using the rules for charging and stand and shoot it would stand to reason that if they blow up, they are no longer in charge range, you can either redirect or fail the charge.

As far as the template is concerned, the stand and shoot happens before you move, so the template happens before you move.

hamsterwheel
13-01-2011, 17:04
With the assumption that the FAQ implies that it's referring to a successful charge which I would agree would make sense from the standpoint that by not limiting it would cause several other issues in gameplay as pointed out by Lord Inquisitor, it would be a failed charge.

The weapon team destroys itself during the charge reaction, so the charge reaction is not completed before the unit is removed from the table.

Measuring distance from the charger to the charged unit only occurs after all charge reactions and redirections. By the time you attempt to measure, the unit is no longer on the table and therefore can never be reached, thus a failed charge. A redirect cannot occur as the weapon team did not choose the Flee! charge reaction.

Warrior of Chaos
13-01-2011, 19:04
My thoughts.

1. Declare Charge
2. Charge Reaction Declared
3. S&S = kaboom - unit destroyed
4. Roll charge distance and treat as a failed charge.
5. Move chargers the distance indicated for the failed charge.

Other side notes:

If the chargers were out of maximum range for the S&S reaction, you'd have to roll the charge, and move the chargers forward until they reach the maximum range of the weapon used for S&S. The chargers would then have to be halted mid-stride to resolve the S&S. In the case, the wep. team blows themselves up, but you've already began the charge move. I would say in this case the chargers finish their total charge move distance provided they moved more than the distance a failed charge would have took them (say they rolled a 3 and a 5 + base move, but moved 6 to reach max range for the S&S wep). If they have moved less distance than a failed charge (only moved 2)...they finish moving the final scoot to the failed charge distance and stop. Just my take on it. In either case the chargers would be "treated" as a failed charge.

Lord Inquisitor
13-01-2011, 19:12
Broadly I agree with you but:


If the chargers were out of maximum range for the S&S reaction, you'd have to roll the charge, and move the chargers forward until they reach the maximum range of the weapon used for S&S. The chargers would then have to be halted mid-stride to resolve the S&S.
For future reference, this has changed in 8th. S&S is resolved before moving the charger, they are treated as at maximum range even if out of range now.

smithers
13-01-2011, 19:47
Well it seems like applying the rules to the scenario is a bit more complicated than it appears.

I read Deathless Draich's post and was questioning the "unknown" distance. You could also consider that the distance to a non-existent object is infinite, which would allow us to say the charge distance is > rolled distance thus a failed charge.

Then I noticed that even if we agreed this, it is impossible to resolve it as a failed charge, as this requires moving "directly towards the target". Of course at this point there is no target, so we don't even have the option of treating this as a failed charge if you are intent on following the rules exactly.

Can anyone please help me to understand the scenario that the new FAQ entry was designed to address? It seems to me that it was intended to cover this scenario but the author overlooked the problem with resolving charge distance once S&S evaporated the charged unit. Probably there is some other scenario applicable to the FAQ entry but I don't know...

Anyways, the sentence I found in the rulebook that seems to best apply to this scenario is actually under the "Unexpected Problems" sidebar on page 20. The two options it suggests are "failed charge" and "declare the charge never happened". Because it's not possible to execute a failed charge due to unmeasurable direction at this point, I'd argue for "charge never happened".

From a fluff perspective, it's something like:

"The knights gripped their mounts' reigns and pointed their lances at the weapon crew. Without warning the crew was engulfed in a ball of fire and cooked rat bits rained down all over the battlefield. The knights chuckled and then turned their attention to the rat ogres down field"

The fluff for charge and then overrun makes equal sense but this solution is better IMO because it avoids the need to measure where something used to be, which ought not to e introduced to the game.

It's also interesting to note that if the charge "never occurred" then the unit can declare another charge and if that unit fled it could redirect (since the second charge was not itself a redirect)

So my conclusion is that the best guidance the rules give us is "never occurred" under the "unexpected problems" description.

Masque
13-01-2011, 19:53
smithers, I assume this is the FAQ you are asking about:

Q: If I charge an enemy and they are wiped out before the Close
Combat phase, can I overrun? If I can, when does this overrun
occur? (p58)
A: Yes. The overrun occurs at the start of the Close Combat
phase before any blows have been struck.

The situation this covers is if you successfully charge a unit and then that unit is, for example, wiped out by the Shield of Thorns spell on the charging unit, then the charging unit gets to overrun at the beginning of the close combat phase.

Lord Inquisitor
13-01-2011, 20:08
Exactly. It most frequently happens when a unit charges another unit successfully, and the charged unit is destroyed by magic. Rarely it can also happen through shooting, typically war machines if they scatter into combat (a memorable occasion was when my opponent managed to shoot and kill one hellcannon with the other hellcannon). But most of the time it is magic that wipes out a unit that has been charged, any spell that causes damage and can be cast into combat can cause this situation.

Warrior of Chaos
13-01-2011, 21:09
Broadly I agree with you but:


For future reference, this has changed in 8th. S&S is resolved before moving the charger, they are treated as at maximum range even if out of range now.


Awesome! Thanks for the clairification Lord.

DeathlessDraich
13-01-2011, 22:45
A list of all the possible scenarios where the charged unit is removed before the combat phase

A) In the Movement phase
1) S&S and wounds itself to death
2) S&S, inflicts >25% wounds on itself, panics (IIRC mentioned in an FAQ but I'm not sure)flees and is destroyed when fleeing e.g. by terrain or off the board

In the Magic phase
3) Destroyed by magic cast into combat or RIP spell
4) Destroyed by a miscast

In the shooting phase
5) Destroyed by a stray shot from friendly fire

EDIT - 6) Unit fleeing from the previous turn (the most common)

While 3,4, and 5 occur with units in btb and the position of the charged unit is known, in 1 & especially 2 the position of the unit to be charged is unknown.

jaxom
13-01-2011, 23:35
Let's approach the problem from the other end, DeathlessDraich...

One caveat first... Since no Flee was declared, I am not allowing a Redirect (if you allow a redirect the issue of contact and direction becomes moot).

You agree that after declaring a charge there are only two possible outcomes, right? You either have a successful charge or a failed charge. We know that if 2D6+M < Range you fail. There is also one other case that can be used to solve your problem explicitly though. If you cannot make a legal charge move (one wheel up to 90 degrees) and contact the enemy unit and then successfully close the door, the charge is a failed charge regardless of all else.

Who cares where the unit was. You cannot make contact and close the door, therefore the charge *must* result in a failed charge. As to whether you move toward where the unit was when it blew up or just ramble forward that distance, I would have to suggest agreeing with your opponent, but I would say toward where the enemy was when it blew up (which may not be obvious given some of the Skaven misfire results).

smithers
14-01-2011, 06:13
Jaxom, you have ignored my suggestion for "charge never occurred", suggested under "unexpected problems". This definitely qualifies as an "unexpected problem" and I don't know you could force an opponent to move towards something that doesn't exist any more.

You cannot say it *must* be a failed charge when the BRB has given us this other option, especially since this doesn't require doing anything so fishy as moving toward something that no longer exists. In a game I'd play it either way but I'd prefer the one the one that doesn't tread on any rules at all.

Lord Solar Plexus
14-01-2011, 08:03
I don't quite see the problem. Okay, the target isn't there anymore and you must move towards it but there's precedent for this. When you win a combat, the opposing unit flees and you roll higher than them, they are destroyed, and yet you move into their direction.

I think moving as in every other failed charge towards that weapon team's last position is the easiest approach. It's hardly impossible to measure the distance or the direction.

DeathlessDraich
14-01-2011, 10:46
You agree that after declaring a charge there are only two possible outcomes, right? You either have a successful charge or a failed charge. We know that if 2D6+M < Range you fail. There is also one other case that can be used to solve your problem explicitly though. If you cannot make a legal charge move (one wheel up to 90 degrees) and contact the enemy unit and then successfully close the door, the charge is a failed charge regardless of all else.

Who cares where the unit was. You cannot make contact and close the door, therefore the charge *must* result in a failed charge. As to whether you move toward where the unit was when it blew up or just ramble forward that distance, I would have to suggest agreeing with your opponent, but I would say toward where the enemy was when it blew up (which may not be obvious given some of the Skaven misfire results).

1) Yes there are 2 outcomes stated in the BRB and each is a direct consequence of fixed rules.
I'm not sure whether this situation is a grey area which must be made to fit one of the above 2 or as smithers states, is an "unexpected problem" i.e. 3 possible outcomes

2) Yes, a Failed charge occurs either because
A) Charge range is too small
B) impossible to close the door.

In each case the rules states a specific mechanism for determination. That mechanism (or 2 if you like) is the only correct one to ascertain whether a Failed charge has occured.
Following the rules laid out for (A) or (B) does not yield a result for thecase above
Which of these 2 fits the case mentioned? Neither unfortunately


Jaxom, you have ignored my suggestion for "charge never occurred", suggested under "unexpected problems". This definitely qualifies as an "unexpected problem" and I don't know you could force an opponent to move towards something that doesn't exist any more.

You cannot say it *must* be a failed charge when the BRB has given us this other option, especially since this doesn't require doing anything so fishy as moving toward something that no longer exists. In a game I'd play it either way but I'd prefer the one the one that doesn't tread on any rules at all.

Unexpected problems - is a relevant observation. Thank you for pointing that out. It produces the 3rd outcome - the charge never happened.

Since 'charge' in the case of 'charge never happened', cannot mean Moving charges, it has to be charge declarations?

I'm not certain though what that means for actual gameplay. It could be

A) Treat the situation as if there was no charge declaration - undo the effects of the charge response

B) Accept the consequences of the charge declaration and response but allow a fresh one

C) Deny any further charge declarations but the unit is not deemed to have a Failed charge


I don't quite see the problem. Okay, the target isn't there anymore and you must move towards it but there's precedent for this. When you win a combat, the opposing unit flees and you roll higher than them, they are destroyed, and yet you move into their direction.

I think moving as in every other failed charge towards that weapon team's last position is the easiest approach. It's hardly impossible to measure the distance or the direction.

Using the principle of precedence is alright except the precedent here is variable in its outcome.
We're looking for this precedent - Necessary movement into/towards a unit which is consequently destroyed or destroyed just prior to that movement.

The final position of the moving unit is vital here :

A) For combat, the moving unit ends up as far as his dice roll will allow him through the fleeing unit. pg 57

B) For a charging unit destroying fleers from the previous round, the charging unit stops exactly where the fleers were. - pg 23 (then overruns)

C) For a charging unit that charges a unit destroyed by terrain as it flees - unknown?

2 different final positions and one indeterminate. :)

jaxom
14-01-2011, 14:50
If the charge never happened I want my Weapon Team back because I never took a S&S reaction.

I don't think that's any better as a solution, personally.

a18no
14-01-2011, 15:08
A rule that is not covered should be play as the most logical and fair-play way (The most important rule, p.2).

Following that RAW, I think that since the target is gone, I do:

1) ld-test to redirect, or
2) continue my charge.

1 is pretty clear in the rule, in case I choose 2) it will be considered a failed charge since I can't, by any normal way, contact my target.

Simple, effective and follow everything else.

Good games!

hamsterwheel
14-01-2011, 15:26
A rule that is not covered should be play as the most logical and fair-play way (The most important rule, p.2).

Following that RAW, I think that since the target is gone, I do:

1) ld-test to redirect, or
2) continue my charge.

1 is pretty clear in the rule, in case I choose 2) it will be considered a failed charge since I can't, by any normal way, contact my target.

Simple, effective and follow everything else.

Good games!


A redirect cannot be done as a Flee! reaction was not used.

I do agree with that a more common sense approach should be taken. Honestly if you were charging a group of guys with a mortar and they blew themselves up before you got there then you'd probably slow down and stop but not before you were halfway there. Thus a failed charge.

I'd have to agree that if a charge never happened, then a S&S never took place.

smithers
14-01-2011, 19:07
I don't quite see the problem. Okay, the target isn't there anymore and you must move towards it but there's precedent for this. When you win a combat, the opposing unit flees and you roll higher than them, they are destroyed, and yet you move into their direction.

I think moving as in every other failed charge towards that weapon team's last position is the easiest approach. It's hardly impossible to measure the distance or the direction.


Incorrect. Overrun is "forward" not "towards"

"... as if they were pursuing a fleeing enemy to their front"

So I still think there is no precedent for moving towards or measuring to something that is not on the table.

Lord Inquisitor
14-01-2011, 20:09
One thing that occurred to me was this sort of scenario is far more likely to occur in the event of a unit fleeing off the board as a flee reaction (although obviously this would permit a redirect). I've been caught by this - a unit flees and instead of catching them and getting a nice move and reform, they hit the edge of the board and disappear. We played it as a failed charge and didn't even consider it further at the time.

Metzler123
18-01-2011, 17:00
Thanks for the replies everyone. So it sounds like the consensus is that its a failed charge.