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The Anarchist
16-01-2011, 17:48
firstly i was wondering if there is any defeinative number of Foundings that have taken place up until the 41st melenium?

secondly are chapters only founded during full foundings? or can a single or maybe just a few chapters be formed whenever someone with enough power decides that an area needs new chapters?
Are foundings only when a large number of new chapters are created, such as 20 or more for example. Or is a founding whenever ever new chapters are formed?

angelismortis
16-01-2011, 23:06
Codes: DA has some background on one of the successor chapters resulting from a petition by the chapter master for a special founding that was approved. I don’t have the book with me so I'm not sure which chapter it was though. Will check later.

Decius
16-01-2011, 23:22
Codes: DA has some background on one of the successor chapters resulting from a petition by the chapter master for a special founding that was approved. I don’t have the book with me so I'm not sure which chapter it was though. Will check later.

Wait, so is it possible for a chapter to be given permission to create a chapter by itself? Say, grow to 2000 marines and then split? Like a single celled organism? Sounds interesting if true. Could create some interesting loyalty dynamics.

DrMabutu
16-01-2011, 23:39
They occasional create a small number of new chapters. The current Space Marine codex says the Sable Swords were created to replace the destroyed Astral Knights chapter.

AndrewGPaul
17-01-2011, 07:23
Wait, so is it possible for a chapter to be given permission to create a chapter by itself? Say, grow to 2000 marines and then split? Like a single celled organism? Sounds interesting if true. Could create some interesting loyalty dynamics.

I don't think there's any implication that's what happened. It's more likely that the new Chapter was founded in the usual way, but using specifically Dark Angels gene-seed and with the new Chapter's initial officers being drawn from the Dark Angels.

Bonzai
17-01-2011, 14:41
Yeah,

I was under the impression that a Chapter will donate a squad of veterans and a Company Captain to form the leadership of a successor chapter. Terra then releases the geneseed for the creation of the chapter, and recruitment and training begins.

Founding seem to take place for specific purposes. Though it could be when Geneseed reserves hit a certain critical mass, or a certain number of chapters have been destroyed.

Master Commander Ajax
17-01-2011, 14:50
Its my understanding that near enough all space marine chapters are created during a founding with perhaps a few very rare examples. In Imperial Armour Volume 10: The Badab war part II there is a section devoted to the sons of medusa and it is said here that they were officially recognised by the imperium as a chapter in a almost unheard of decree several years after they broke away from the iron hands chapter.

AndrewGPaul
17-01-2011, 15:43
I always thought that a Founding was the creation of one or more Space Marine Chapters by definition. At least, the creation of a Chapter by the Adeptus Terra. The Sons of Medusa seems like a different thing - half a Chapter splitting away, rather than the cration of a whole new CHapter from scratch.

shadowhawk2008
18-01-2011, 10:20
firstly i was wondering if there is any defeinative number of Foundings that have taken place up until the 41st melenium?

secondly are chapters only founded during full foundings? or can a single or maybe just a few chapters be formed whenever someone with enough power decides that an area needs new chapters?
Are foundings only when a large number of new chapters are created, such as 20 or more for example. Or is a founding whenever ever new chapters are formed?

The last recorded founding is termed the 26th Founding and took place in 738.M41 if I remember correctly. And usually chapters are only created in proper foundings although there are examples where this does not hold such as the Grey Knights, Exorcists and the DA successors the Guardians of the Covenant.

The Grey Knights were founded sometime prior to the Second Founding or just thereabouts. The Exorcists were founded as some sort of complimentary force to the Grey Knights with the specific focus on anti-daemonic army and are said to be Grey Knights successors according to certain pieces of fluff. The Guardians were founded as per the petition of a DA chapter master to the High Lords and that's really all the details available on that topic.

Sometimes chapters are founded to safeguard certain regions and sometimes they are founded to replace lost chapters. There is at least one occurence in fluff where a chapter was destroyed and a new chapter was created that carried on the heraldry of the old chapter. It mostly depends on what is needed and what the High Lords consider appropriate. There is no actual size of a founding, it could be one chapter or fifty.

AndrewGPaul
18-01-2011, 11:37
The last recorded founding is termed the 26th Founding and took place in 738.M41 if I remember correctly.

(emphasis mine). Note the leeway you're given there. :)

shadowhawk2008
18-01-2011, 11:49
very much so.

EDI: there seem to have been quite a few foundings in M36, around the time of the Age of Apostasy and the Plague of Unbelief. off the top of my head, i think about 7 or 8, which is quite a lot and could reflect the internal division and turmoil within the imperium that so many astartes chapters would be needed.

The Anarchist
18-01-2011, 16:53
if there have been 26 founding since the 31st melenium and two of the largest were the 13th and 21st, both of which had numours problems and so many of the chapters formed from them were later destroyed, disapeared or such then the numbers don't add up. there are meant to be a thousand or more chapters in the imperium yet the largest foundings seem to be numbered about less than 50 at the largest (excluding the first) so when we factor in the number of chapters that have definativly been destroyed or turned traitor it seems there would be less than 900 or so chapters. this at first sounds about right, yet for the number of warzones these chaters fight in, and the size of the imperium there just isn't enough space marines to fight in all these war zones

shadowhawk2008
19-01-2011, 10:35
Well of course there aren't enough marines for all the warzones they fight in. That is kind of what they are about are they not? Elite soldiers who are used in specific roles and specializing in the kind of mobile warfare that the Imperial Guard cannot engage in.

And there have been 26 'recorded' foundings that we are aware of. Considering that during M36 many records were apparently lost and/or destroyed there could have been several more foundings in that period and before that we know of. Subsequent foundings could have been reset to the last known number to maintain continuity by the High Lords/Inquisition and others who make the decision to commit to a Founding.

It is also possible that many chapters over the years have exceeded the standing limit of 1000 'main-force' battle-brothers such as the Astral Claws attempted to do and how the Black Templars and Space Wolves currently are rumoured to do. Do the Exorcists not maintain 2 scout companies instead of the one that the Codex dictates because of their practices? Sometimes companies get lost or break off from the chapter and go on their own merry way and in the end some of them return to a relatively full strength chapter and are reintegrated, swelling the ranks of the chapter's 'main-force' beyond the dictated 1000 battle-brothers.

There are all kinds of scenarios that we can come up with to explain how even there are only supposed to be only a million marines around today and their 'coverage' not being extensive yet their presence is felt and seen in many of the most critical events of the galaxy and how they seem to be everywhere the plot needs them to be.

Feel No Pain Freddy
21-01-2011, 03:17
You had me wondering there, so I broke out my trusty SM Codex, and re-read the "Origins of the Space Marines" (pg. 6-9) and the "Chapter Organisation" (pg. 16) It really didn't state a lot about how many chapters are formed in a founding, other than it's just more than one. It said that most foundings are considerable small, other than the first, second, and twenty-first. Seeing that when there is a founding it's based of of a existing chapter, I'd say that their numbers are pretty small. So I'd say that to your second question, I don't think it's really the power, or the need in a area, It's probably Codex Terra saying, "We need more chapters!" And to your first question, the Codex states, that there is a thousand chapters, each consisting of thousand men. But seeing that that was what Roboute Guilliman's Codex Astartes stated, and sense then there's been several other foundings, I'd say maybe around two-thousand chapters. That'd be my best guess.

sean_scanlon2000
26-01-2011, 00:10
technically each chapter can be more then 1000 members ie the templars are probably the closest force which woudl even represent a 1/5 of a legion of old. As for the chapters themselves its all up to the chapter master just how many marines they create. they give a portion of gene seed to the high lords to be checked for mutation. After that they are able to stock pile gene seed as they wish and can use it as they wish. alot of its going to depend on the chapter and how they interact with organizations such as the inquisition or other agencies.

the imperial fists for example could be larger then 1,000 battle brothers if Vladimir so wished it. look at the Wolves their numbers are far in excess of 1,000 battle brothers as the legion was only split once if im recalling correctly.

Tegian
28-01-2011, 08:37
I would imagine the Imperial Tarot (i.e The Emperor) have a say in the founding of space marine chapters .....

There is mentioned in the fluff 20 chapters specifically created to guard the Eye of Terror, should be more instances like that with chapters created and deployed to combat/contain big and long term threats.

shadowhawk2008
28-01-2011, 13:28
technically each chapter can be more then 1000 members ie the templars are probably the closest force which woudl even represent a 1/5 of a legion of old. As for the chapters themselves its all up to the chapter master just how many marines they create. they give a portion of gene seed to the high lords to be checked for mutation. After that they are able to stock pile gene seed as they wish and can use it as they wish. alot of its going to depend on the chapter and how they interact with organizations such as the inquisition or other agencies.

the imperial fists for example could be larger then 1,000 battle brothers if Vladimir so wished it. look at the Wolves their numbers are far in excess of 1,000 battle brothers as the legion was only split once if im recalling correctly.

I believe the 1000 men limit has only ever applied to main force marines and not to the commanders and executive support personnel such as captains, chaplains, techmarines, apothecaries, honour guard etc.

If Vlaidimir Pugh wants he could have more than a 1000 battle brothers as main force marines but considering that the Imperial Fists are extremely and staunchly pro-codex I somehow doubt he would. Nothing prevents him except his unconditional devotion/respect/love for Rogal Dorn.


I would imagine the Imperial Tarot (i.e The Emperor) have a say in the founding of space marine chapters .....

There is mentioned in the fluff 20 chapters specifically created to guard the Eye of Terror, should be more instances like that with chapters created and deployed to combat/contain big and long term threats.

The Astartes Praeses are the ones you mean. I believe there were chapters created for the Maelstrom zone as well although I am not sure even after reading IA9. And there could well have been other such cases definitely as it makes sense to have permanent elite forces on watch in certain high danger zones.

ForgottenLore
28-01-2011, 16:02
I believe there were chapters created for the Maelstrom zone as well although I am not sure even after reading IA9.

IA 9&10 don't mention any chapters specifically created to guard the maelstrom, only a group of already existing chapters that was specifically assigned to do so as a more or less unified group.

The Anarchist
28-01-2011, 19:30
to me many unamed and forgotten or unmentioned creations of Chapters seems a possible idea as to how there are so many chapters of astartes in the Imperium. also strikes me as solid idea for the High Lords to use, much in the way the Roman Empire at times created a new legion to enforce their rule or gaurd a certain province

ForgottenLore
28-01-2011, 19:39
Want to bring up here that according to IA 10 the Sons of Medusa came about because the Iron Hands split into 2 groups over a religious schism in the AdMech, with both sides claiming to be the Iron Hands, for a while there were 2 (understrength) chapters claiming to be the Iron Hands and using their iconography. Eventually, when the schism was (more or less) resolved, the smaller Iron Hands chapter was officially examined, declared not heretics, renamed the Sons of Medusa and allowed to continue to exist as a separate chapter.

Seemed relevant to this topic.

The bearded one
28-01-2011, 21:09
technically each chapter can be more then 1000 members ie the templars are probably the closest force which woudl even represent a 1/5 of a legion of old.

Aren't the grey knights 3000 strong? I heard or read the space wolves to possibly be 3000 strong too, but I'm not sure on that.

The Anarchist
28-01-2011, 21:34
Forgottenlore, totaly living up to your name. that was totaly unknown to me but intresting to note!
Bearded One, a far as I can remember there isn't any set number enforced for theGrey Knights as they are not strictly speaking a codex chapter. however their numbers are more likely to be based upon recruitment levels, combined with ho many are felt to be needed, so unlikely to stretch to legion level numbers, but I don't ahve any fluff refernce to back this feeling up.
Space Wolves have no set number, however the largest Great Company i that of Ragnar Blackmane which is about 300 strong. so if every company was between 250 and 300 strong they could well number 3000, though probably with levels of battlfeild attrition at present don't number much beyond this. though a return to legion strength is possible for them through sheer chance if a Great Wolf feels it unessecary to cap company numbers and they chance to suffer less losses in battle for whatever reason

Idaan
28-01-2011, 21:44
Aren't the grey knights 3000 strong? I heard or read the space wolves to possibly be 3000 strong too, but I'm not sure on that.
The second largest Great Company of the Space Wolves is noted to be almost 200 Marines - so they're somewhere at 2000 at most.

The Anarchist
28-01-2011, 21:50
Ok i was wrong then with my assumptions that other companies might be near as large, thanks for the correction Idaan. Any idea who the secnd largest companys commander is?

shadowhawk2008
30-01-2011, 14:53
Want to bring up here that according to IA 10 the Sons of Medusa came about because the Iron Hands split into 2 groups over a religious schism in the AdMech, with both sides claiming to be the Iron Hands, for a while there were 2 (understrength) chapters claiming to be the Iron Hands and using their iconography. Eventually, when the schism was (more or less) resolved, the smaller Iron Hands chapter was officially examined, declared not heretics, renamed the Sons of Medusa and allowed to continue to exist as a separate chapter.

Seemed relevant to this topic.

That's definitely an interesting spin on the issue of Chapter foundings. Definitely need to get my hands on IA10. It also potentially opens up a new take on some chapters having been formed over the millennia. Disagreements on tactical and strategic organisation, differences regarding Primarch worship, differences regarding battlefield practices and conduct (in extreme cases I would think) and so on.

shadowhawk2008
30-01-2011, 14:56
Ok i was wrong then with my assumptions that other companies might be near as large, thanks for the correction Idaan. Any idea who the secnd largest companys commander is?

IIRC Ragnar has the largest company because he uses the most Blood Claws than any other Wolf Lord. So I guess the next biggest would be whichever company makes the most extensive use of Grey Hunters?

Col. Tartleton
30-01-2011, 15:12
There's no evidence of a lot of things Most of that is speculation. Probably by me...

I can't think of any reason the GK are 3000 strong other than on Lexicanum. I remember either proposing or agreeing that they were around that number but I don't think it was based on anything other than the logic that there are several+ Grandmasters with their own organizations and that brother Captains are quite numerous and leading them around the galaxy. The mention of a Grey Knight Grandmaster gave them a force of 300 terminators with them. If that's the norm they're reasonably over 3000. But they might be small. Who knows.

But I've also proposed that normal chapters at full strength would be 1500-2000 marines minimum based on the support structure, and more so, I think the chapters should be made 10,000 plus support. They were 1,000 when the Legions were 10,000. Now the Ultramarines are 250,000 and formed 23 chapters... Either they had like 90% casualties without rebuilding or a chapter is 10,000 men...

I'd like to see this retconned in the next addition. A chapter of 1,000 marines is fine and good but they only deploy as companies of 100 which is not a significant amount of fighting power. 1000? That will screw stuff up. Full chapters of 10,000 on Armageddon or the Cadian Gate? That sounds like Armageddon.

shadowhawk2008
31-01-2011, 07:30
Is it in The First Heretic that the Ultramarines are mentioned as being ~250,000 strong?

And I wonder the organization would work out to be if chapters are retconned to be ~10,000 strong. 20 companies of 500 marines each? 10 companies of 1,000 marines each? It seems to me that such a retcon would entail several changes to the fluff about the marine support structure as well. Perhaps the 10k number counts up honour guard companies as well.

If chapters do have that many marines then their recruitment rates would also go up wouldn't they? I think Sons of Dorn mentions that the Triandr recruitment mission rounded up like 2,000 potential recruits but only like 20 or so survive. That's a pretty ridiculous survival rate.

Given how ridiculous some of the fluff seems to get as to the amounts of casualties 1,000 strong chapters seem to take, it is just unnatural.

ODINM4
31-01-2011, 19:01
not that crazy when say 50-100 grunts go through sas selection and only 4 make it to the proper part of training and still you can be rejected if you dont meld with the team

shadowhawk2008
01-02-2011, 04:20
not that crazy when say 50-100 grunts go through sas selection and only 4 make it to the proper part of training and still you can be rejected if you dont meld with the team

Not sure if that is a valid comparison.

shadowhawk2008
02-02-2011, 05:05
So as a summary we have the following methods of new chapters being founded --

1. As per a decree/order by the High Lords of Terra. Example - 26th Founding.
2. As per a decree/order by the Inquisition. Example - Exorcists.
3. Internal disagreements within chapters and eventual split. Examples - Sons of Medusa.
4. As per request of a Chapter Master of an existing Chapter. Example - Disciples of Caliban.

Also, is it generally accepted that when a new chapter is formed, a small force of marines is seconded from the parent chapter to act as the new chapter's officer/training corps? Is there any evidence to the contrary and if there is then is this the rule or the exception?

Grubnar
05-02-2011, 02:46
Not to mention, creating s new chapter of space marines is no simple undertaking.
You need a fleet of warships (at least a few strike crusers, if not a battlebarge), lots of weapons, armour and vehicles, a suitable recruiting world (or two), maybe a fortress monastery, etc.
The Imperium does not come up with all that quickly or easily!

shadowhawk2008
05-02-2011, 05:14
I have often struggled to actually understand the whole process myself. We know that creating a new chapter is a logistical herculean task, let alone several chapters at once. They need a homeworld, a fleet, serfs, training, resources among other things.

1. What determines the homeworld for a particular chapter?
2. What decides whether a chapter is to be a crusading chapter or a planet-bound chapter?
3. How is the chapter fleet assembled? I am of the opinion that it takes several years and that they start off with a few escort ships that can be built fairly quickly and over the years the Mechanicus finish building their strike cruisers and battle barges. Perhaps the Imperial Navy seconds a few vessels for the chapter that act as their defense fleet and are used for missions/campaigns while the other ships are readied.

*Keeping in mind that it takes the Mechanicus 55 years to cultivate a thousand sets of progenoids, this time could reflect the period when the High Lords order a new founding to when the Founding is officially commenced and the new chapters' fleets are assembled.*

4. Are the serfs members of the Imperial Navy in the beginning or merely ones who have been trained at the academies or a mixture of both? Perhaps they are the ones who over the ages train the failed aspirants and others to take over once they are gone, whether in death or re-assigned.
5. Who takes care of the training of the new brothers? Is a parent chapter always involved? Does the Inquisition play a part here?
6. Does a parent chapter donate battle-brothers of all ranks to the new chapter permanently or on temporary assignment?
7. How is the new chapter's officer corps selected?

And other questions of course.