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H33D
17-01-2011, 03:41
Just a quick question.
I am playing in a campaign with special rules regarding slayers. I can have an entire 'banner' made up of a 2000 point list of Dwarves, led by a Slayer general. The requirement for this list is that at least 1000 points be spent on slayers, whether characters or normal slayers.
As I only have 30 rank-and-file slayers, and 2 slayer characters, I have to make the slayer unit about 2/3rds Giant Slayers.
So here is my question:

-If you have a large amount of command models, do the musicians or standard bearers take precedent over being in the front rank, or do the giant slayers have to be there? Or can you decide which models go in the front?

-If the enemy is only contacting giant slayers, does he have to allocate before he rolls his attacks as he can only hit champion models?

Thanks and have a cold one on me!

Lord Inquisitor
17-01-2011, 04:08
-If you have a large amount of command models, do the musicians or standard bearers take precedent over being in the front rank, or do the giant slayers have to be there? Or can you decide which models go in the front?
Yes, the command does have to go in the front, see the rules on adding characters to units.

That said, the Make Way! rule allows you to move characters forward at the start of combat, pushing the command models back (so in practice, yes, you can fill the front rank with heroes).


-If the enemy is only contacting giant slayers, does he have to allocate before he rolls his attacks as he can only hit champion models?
Yes, each individual model must be attacked individually. Can make a unit very survivable. It is a trick that is exploited by Ogres and Brettonians due to only needing 3 characters to fill a front rank.

Surgency
17-01-2011, 05:08
[COLOR="Magenta"]Yes, the command does have to go in the front, see the rules on adding characters to units.

the problem is that Giant Slayers count as unit champions. So realistically, the command is still going in the front rank... I don't have my rulebook handy, so I can't look it up, unfortunately

H33D
17-01-2011, 05:37
The rulebook simply states that command models must be placed in the front rank, and that the only exception are for characters making a 'make way' maneuver. I can't find anything about musicians and standards, and whether they need to be in the front rank if you don't have enough room for all other command models. I would like to have a front rank composed entirely of Giant Slayers, but I am not sure whether that would be a bit of cheese or not.

narrativium
17-01-2011, 07:42
I'd say you've got the option - just remember, the standard bearer works even if he's not in the front rank, but the musician's abilities are dependent on his position in the unit.

TMATK
17-01-2011, 14:37
I'd say you've got the option - just remember, the standard bearer works even if he's not in the front rank, but the musician's abilities are dependent on his position in the unit.

Looks like only the tie-breaking ability requires the front rank.

Leth Shyish'phak
17-01-2011, 23:05
No command model has precedence over another, so I'd make sure that the front rank is all champions, so that the enemy can't attack rank and file though the banner musician.

Also, remember that if there are >5 Troll Slayers in the unit, every single Giant Slayer gets a Look Our Sir! roll. Which is always fun with Purple Sun/Pit of Shades/Mortars/etc. :evilgrin:

Lord Inquisitor
17-01-2011, 23:24
the problem is that Giant Slayers count as unit champions. So realistically, the command is still going in the front rank... I don't have my rulebook handy, so I can't look it up, unfortunately

Ah yes, my bad. Thought they were the hero flavour of slayer, forgot about multiple champions.

Yes, I agree with the others, the command models need to be in the front rank "unless there is not enough room for them to fit." p92. So you can fill out the front rank with champions and have the other models in the second (and presumably subsequent if necessary) ranks. I don't see any reason you can't choose which command models go where.

smithers
18-01-2011, 00:03
No command model has precedence over another, so I'd make sure that the front rank is all champions, so that the enemy can't attack rank and file though the banner musician.

Also, remember that if there are >5 Troll Slayers in the unit, every single Giant Slayer gets a Look Our Sir! roll. Which is always fun with Purple Sun/Pit of Shades/Mortars/etc. :evilgrin:

Yowzas.

For some reason I thought these spells didn't offer LoS, but after checking the rules it appears you are right and this is good news :P

grumbaki
18-01-2011, 00:20
You've got 30 rank and file slayers. So make sure that the front rank of each unit is made up entirely of slayers (or front 2 ranks) and fill the rest in with dwarf warriors. Make sure that your opponent knows what the units are (not too hard to figure out) and have a good game. Don't throw it away by making a really, really, subpar army.

AM1640
18-01-2011, 17:25
How many giant slayers (unit champion) models do you want to include in the unit? Why not just go and get more models so you don't have to worry about where you can and can't put command models. If I was playing against that list I would wonder why you are taking so many command models that you can't fit them in the front rank.

Surgency
19-01-2011, 01:08
How many giant slayers (unit champion) models do you want to include in the unit? Why not just go and get more models so you don't have to worry about where you can and can't put command models. If I was playing against that list I would wonder why you are taking so many command models that you can't fit them in the front rank.

several reasons. Multiple unit champions means he can make or take multiple challenges over the course of the game. If one dies, he doesn't have to worry about having lost the champion. 5 giant slayers means that his all important banner bearer and musician can hide in the second rank (not very slayerish though). A full rank of unit champions means that EVERY attack has to be allocated, meaning that there is a potential for more models to survive.

I'd do it, if I had more than 8 slayers :p

Keller
19-01-2011, 17:51
I'd do it, if I had more than 8 slayers :p

But since the upgrade from a Troll to Giant Slayer cost more than buying a new model, I'd suggest getting more models. Just my opinion.

senoja
19-01-2011, 19:43
But since the upgrade from a Troll to Giant Slayer cost more than buying a new model, I'd suggest getting more models. Just my opinion.

how the upgrade is free and new models costs money lol that is likly the reason behind wanting to do it lol

Lord Inquisitor
20-01-2011, 00:56
But since the upgrade from a Troll to Giant Slayer cost more than buying a new model, I'd suggest getting more models. Just my opinion.

Because you can play naughty games with hit allocation. Essentially, you can limit the damage a unit can inflict at a given initiative step to the models in your front rank.

decker_cky
20-01-2011, 04:16
Do you really have to allocate to each Giant slayer? They're all identical to each other and are all champions, so wouldn't wounds carry over from champion to champion?

Fubar
20-01-2011, 06:16
Do you really have to allocate to each Giant slayer? They're all identical to each other and are all champions, so wouldn't wounds carry over from champion to champion?

I seem to remember that this is the case, can't check for reference at the moment...

H33D
20-01-2011, 06:31
Well that depends. Would you feel right if the front rank was 5 naked Dragon Slayers (Hero Slayer, very much possible) and you didn't allocate attacks? I sure wouldn't.

AMWOOD co
20-01-2011, 06:57
I seem to remember that this is the case, can't check for reference at the moment...

You may be thinking of the new Errata for p48 about directing attacks.

However, the more relevant rule is p93, Champions and close combat. Attacks must be directed at a champion, and excess wounds "do not carry over onto the rest of the unit". I would say this includes other champions, meaning you have to allocate separately.

Fubar
20-01-2011, 07:39
It's in the FAQ, page 3, you allocate them as attacking a champion
"when casualties are suffered, remove models of the appropriate type from the back of the unit...."

Fubar
20-01-2011, 07:49
Also, I believe the standard bearer must go in the front row and centre of the unit, but again I don't have the rulebook handy for that, but I would guess it would be to prevent what your trying to achieve.

Leth Shyish'phak
20-01-2011, 11:44
No, thats not true. As already covered in the thread...

theorox
20-01-2011, 11:52
Yes, each individual model must be attacked individually. Can make a unit very survivable. It is a trick that is exploited by Ogres and Brettonians due to only needing 3 characters to fill a front rank.

Wasn't there a Dwarf FAQ that saidthat if an enemy is only contacting Giantslayers all attacks go on the giantslayers as if they were regular RNF? Rather, i know there was but don't know if it still exists? :confused:

Theo

DeathlessDraich
20-01-2011, 12:07
Do you really have to allocate to each Giant slayer? They're all identical to each other and are all champions, so wouldn't wounds carry over from champion to champion?


You may be thinking of the new Errata for p48 about directing attacks.
.


Wasn't there a Dwarf FAQ that saidthat if an enemy is only contacting Giantslayers all attacks go on the giantslayers as if they were regular RNF? Rather, i know there was but don't know if it still exists? :confused:

Theo

Yes, I seem to remember an FAQ about allocating attacks on Giant Slayers and attacks allocated as decker suggested.
Will check. :)

@ H33D -
1) Great to see someone using Slayers. I played the SOC slayer army years ago - very enjoyable with Doom Seekers etc :)
2) I used to place 1 Troll Slayer only in the front rank forcing the enemy unit to waste attacks through allocation if they did or enabling all GS attacks if they didn't.

TMATK
20-01-2011, 12:19
Q. How are attacks/hits/wounds allocated and models removed in a
unit of Trolls Slayers and Giant Slayers? (p33)
A. Treat the Giant Slayers as champions for the purposes of
allocating close combat attacks and shooting hits. When
casualties are suffered, remove models of the appropriate type
from the back of the unit, and fill any resulting ‘gaps’ by
sliding units forwards or sideways so that the unit is in a legal
formation. Note that the Giant Slayers are champions, and so
can benefit from the ‘Look Out Sir’ rule.


Assuming "appropriate type" means Troll/Giant slayer, then I think multiple wounds on one Giant slayer would carry to another.

What are the shannanigans being attempted here? I can't think of any that can't be avoided by attacking with one model at a time.

Masque
20-01-2011, 12:52
Assuming that hits on one champ can't be carried over to another (which I still think is correct and that FAQ is not super helpful) all attacks at the same initiative are declared at the same time. Which means that no matter how many attacks the enemy has they can't possibly kill more than your front rank of champs and they'll be hard pressed to even accomplish that.

TMATK
20-01-2011, 13:35
... all attacks at the same initiative are declared at the same time. ...

Models make attacks when their turn comes up in initiative, I don't see anything telling me you have to do the whole unit at once. I think I'm wrong on this one


I do think that the FAQ implies that you kill off giant slayers as if they were RnF. Other wise what does it mean?

Surgency
20-01-2011, 13:52
I do think that the FAQ implies that you kill off giant slayers as if they were RnF. Other wise what does it mean?

unfortunately that FAQ answer is super unhelpful, and doesn't do much to explain the rules question involved.

Masque
20-01-2011, 14:55
I do think that the FAQ implies that you kill off giant slayers as if they were RnF. Other wise what does it mean?

If it meant attacks on one Giant Slayer could carry over to the rest it should have said that. All it tells us for sure is that when you kill a Giant Slayer another Giant Slayer will step forward before a Troll Slayer steps forward.

AMWOOD co
20-01-2011, 15:26
[s]I do think that the FAQ implies that you kill off giant slayers as if they were RnF. Other wise what does it mean?

It does seem to imply that, doesn't it? Hmm...

Lord Inquisitor
20-01-2011, 15:35
Assuming "appropriate type" means Troll/Giant slayer, then I think multiple wounds on one Giant slayer would carry to another.
That does seem reasonable. Given that this is the only unit with multiple champions that I can think of, it could be taken to mean this.


What are the shannanigans being attempted here? I can't think of any that can't be avoided by attacking with one model at a time.
Normally you need heroes to do it, which costs a great deal of points. But if you fill your front rank with champions, you can force the enemy to attack them and any excess wounds are lost.

DeathlessDraich
20-01-2011, 17:32
Assuming "appropriate type" means Troll/Giant slayer, then I think multiple wounds on one Giant slayer would carry to another.
.

Yes, agreed.


Models make attacks when their turn comes up in initiative, I don't see anything telling me you have to do the whole unit at once. I think I'm wrong on this one


I do think that the FAQ implies that you kill off giant slayers as if they were RnF. Other wise what does it mean?

Lets not use RnF because that's confusing because champions are RnF in some respects as well.

- I think the phrase "of the same type" is better. :)


If it meant attacks on one Giant Slayer could carry over to the rest it should have said that. All it tells us for sure is that when you kill a Giant Slayer another Giant Slayer will step forward before a Troll Slayer steps forward.

"rest" = rest of the Giant Slayers instead of rest of the unit -> from "of the same type".
EDIT - unless you 've decided to allocate a specific no. of attacks on each GS - a longer process but technically more accurate.

And "Wounds on a champion cannot overflow onto the rest of the unit" - BRB


[/I]
That does seem reasonable. Given that this is the only unit with multiple champions that I can think of, it could be taken to mean this.


Normally you need heroes to do it, which costs a great deal of points. But if you fill your front rank with champions, you can force the enemy to attack them and any excess wounds are lost.

Yes (Grail Knights according to the latest FAQ are not champs?!) and

Yes - as per the tactic I mentioned above which works well in 7th ed before the FAQ.
However in 8th ed with stepping up and Support attacks, since Giant slayers cost much more, adding more Troll Slayers is better (but that's just intuitive :D I haven't calculated)

Leth Shyish'phak
20-01-2011, 17:36
All that FAQ really does is confirm that Giant Slayers are unit champions.

It in no way says that wounds done to one of them carry over to others.

DeathlessDraich
20-01-2011, 18:01
Having read the FAQ again, I believe you are right!
So wounds on any GS does not carry over to the next.

Which means attacks have to be allocated individually to each Gslayer during close combat.

e.g. 5 wide Chaos warriors or Blackguard against Slayers with a frontage of GS only

- Hmmm 2 dice rolled at a time to resolve this, instead of 10 dice simultaneously.

senoja
20-01-2011, 20:33
Having read the FAQ again, I believe you are right!
So wounds on any GS does not carry over to the next.

Which means attacks have to be allocated individually to each Gslayer during close combat.

e.g. 5 wide Chaos warriors or Blackguard against Slayers with a frontage of GS only

- Hmmm 2 dice rolled at a time to resolve this, instead of 10 dice simultaneously.

well yes rolling 2 dice at a time IS beneficial if think about it as tho the probability of wounds stay the same (say 10 attacks hitting on 4+ as a basic" example so 5 hits average) it also gives you a 25% chance for any of those 5 wounds to be discarded (aka causing 2 wounds on one champion)

Masque
20-01-2011, 21:25
Assuming my math is correct, if your unit has 5 Giant Slayers in front and goes up against a horde of Swordmasters of Hoeth with a champion and 6 attacks are directed against each Giant Slayer except for the one that only gets 5 there's actually a 3% chance at least one Giant Slayer will live. Not many other units are going to hold a horde of Swordmasters to only dealing 4 or 5 wounds. Even Tzeentch Warriors with handweapons and shields are going to be taking 9 casualties on average.