PDA

View Full Version : Revised 2250 pts list - Empire



KimikoPT
17-01-2011, 21:08
Hi all, after almost everything in the Empire arsenal, i came up with this:


1 Arch Lector of Sigmar
GW
Armour of Meteoric Iron
Dawn Stone

1 Wizard Lord (Life or Light)
Rod of Power lvl 4

1 Captain (BSB)
Full Plate Armor;
Enchanted Shield

1 Battle Wizard (Fire for WM protection)
lvl 1

2 Master Engineer (For splitting the WM)

2x 40 Halberds (FC)

20 Flagellant

2 cannons

6 pistoliers with musician and Outrider (repeater pistol)

2 Helstorms

1 Steam Tank

2216/2250 pts

I donīt know where to spend the rest! I would love to get 1 WP for one of the halberd hordes (AL goes with one of them).

Also iīm using 2 engineers to split up the machines, i was playing with the 4 machines together with the engi in the middle, but those damn skirmishers get 1, and overrun the rest....

Share your thoughts!

KimikoPT
18-01-2011, 10:57
Also would love to get some opinions, on the better lore (Light or Life) for this list.

KimikoPT
19-01-2011, 18:20
Bump for more comments.

Razakel
19-01-2011, 22:05
I think even though 89 people have viewed this thread the reason they aren't replying is because they can't think of a way to improve your army. You have:

-Adequate magic defense
-Reasonable magical offense, you won't shine, but a few good spells from your level4 could swing a combat in your favour
-Great Shooting, and in particular great defense for your Shooting against all the nasties that get behind your lines to mess them up
-Flagellants to bog down powerful enemy units while your Halberdiers swing in for the kill
-Large units (very important)

I'm sure this army isn't perfect and improvements could be made to it, but I certainly don't know what they are, to a Dwarf player this looks like a great army. Hopefully this will get the ball rolling and some experienced Empire generals will pop in and help you spend your last few points and give you some better feedback.

Torpedo Vegas
19-01-2011, 22:20
Fear not, good sir, for I will comment!
You have enough points to afford AoMI on your BSB, I would take it, especially since you aren't loading up on WPs to make your units Unbreakable. LoLife will make your STank even more tough, and help keep your war machines alive, while Light will make you halberdiers more killy, or faster, or help with leadership checks, plus the burning attacks on some of the magic missiles will hurt any models with regen. I don't care for a naked Lvl4. Thats 300 odd points without a ward save. Even a 6+ ward talisman would help. How do you plan to use your pistolliers?

KimikoPT
20-01-2011, 12:14
Fear not, good sir, for I will comment!
You have enough points to afford AoMI on your BSB, I would take it, especially since you aren't loading up on WPs to make your units Unbreakable.

Already have it on the AL mate.


LoLife will make your STank even more tough, and help keep your war machines alive, while Light will make you halberdiers more killy, or faster, or help with leadership checks, plus the burning attacks on some of the magic missiles will hurt any models with regen.

Good point. Iīm playing always with Life, next game iīll try light to see the result.


I don't care for a naked Lvl4. Thats 300 odd points without a ward save. Even a 6+ ward talisman would help.

This worries me a lot. Or get a bunker for him, or give him a ward. But a 4+ ward is 45 pts....


How do you plan to use your pistolliers?


Some of my usual opponents started to fear more my pistoliers than the Stank (yeah i know, lol). Mainly because i use them to protect warmachines, or vanguard them in 1 flank, in 1 game i managed to disrupt an entire flank with them, because i was always moving to the rear of the units and shooting. Yes, their shooting is bad, but some march blocking, and the psychological effect of them behind enemy lines hunting machines or wizards is great, opponents normaly waste some shooting and magic to take them out. What to ask more of 132 pts?

electors champion
22-01-2011, 02:11
i really would not use a horde, elite infantry will have a field day walking through them considering the best save on all your infantry is a 6+? vamps, demons and WoC will march straight through you despite shooting, dark elves will outshoot your peripheral units leaving you with giant unwieldy blocks and warmachines which will be harrased by fast cav. same with lizards. its not a bad list by any means, just against tougher players theyll pick off the small units easily leaving the big ones that are just bog standard infantry

Karolinen
22-01-2011, 15:14
My opinion; spears, not helbeards. And you dont have any knights!

KimikoPT
22-01-2011, 18:26
My opinion; spears, not helbeards. And you dont have any knights!
You have some serious bad information about this new edition. Cavalry not that great anymore; spears considered the worst state troop atm. Read the Empire tactics thread or check some lists to see what iīm talking about.
In this new edition, big hordes of troops are the answer, not a unit of 8 or more knights.


i really would not use a horde, elite infantry will have a field day walking through them considering the best save on all your infantry is a 6+? vamps, demons and WoC will march straight through you despite shooting, dark elves will outshoot your peripheral units leaving you with giant unwieldy blocks and warmachines which will be harrased by fast cav. same with lizards. its not a bad list by any means, just against tougher players theyll pick off the small units easily leaving the big ones that are just bog standard infantry

What elites should i take then?

tmarichards
22-01-2011, 20:48
I'd say mortars over Helstroms.

Karolinen
23-01-2011, 16:07
Cant you fight in 3 to 4 rankt whit spears? If you are a Horde?
Whats wrong whith that?

Torpedo Vegas
23-01-2011, 16:38
Cant you fight in 3 to 4 rankt whit spears? If you are a Horde?.
Whats wrong whith that?

A horde can already fight with three ranks, a 40 man horde will gain 10 attacks, and with Spearmen, who are WS 3 and S3, that won't come out to many wounds. Spears aren't "bad", but to make them more effective, you will need to field them in huge blocks, as State Troops die in droves, and a 40man horde of spearmen will lose its effectiveness very quickly, whereas having halberdiers will give you STR4 attacks and a bit of a cushion when you start taking casualties.

KimikoPT
24-01-2011, 22:30
Updated: Got a ward on the wizard, and flaggie unit is bigger now.

1 Arch Lector of Sigmar
GW
Armour of Meteoric Iron

1 Wizard Lord lvl 4
Rod of Power
Talisman of preservation

1 Captain (BSB)
Full Plate Armor;
Enchanted Shield

1 Engineer

2x 40 Halberds (FC)

30 Flagellant

2 cannons

6 pistoliers with musician and Outrider (repeater pistol)

2 Helstorms

1 Steam Tank

2206pts

Should i get a lvl 1? Get another engineer? Get a smaller block of swordsmen? Where to spend the rest of the points?

Tower_Of_The_Stars
24-01-2011, 22:49
1 Arch Lector of Sigmar
GW
Armour of Meteoric Iron


If you want that extra magic defence, fair enough, though for the points I wouldn't necessarily take him. Bound spell aren't nearly as effective in the new edition as you probably well know!



1 Wizard Lord lvl 4
Rod of Power
Talisman of preservation


Forget Talisman of Protection, give him Crimson Amulet (I think it's called) so you don't have to worry about Dwellers or Purple Sun.



1 Captain (BSB)
Full Plate Armor;
Enchanted Shield

1 Engineer


Solid



2 x 40 Halberds (FC)


I definitely wouldn't field them as horde units, they'll die in droves. Three units of 30 deployed 5 wide would be better in my opinion.



30 Flagellant


Considering you have a BSB I would take Greatswords instead. They are virtually unbreakable in conjunction with a BSB and hit quite hard in this edition. Plus they have an alright save.



2 cannons

6 pistoliers with musician and Outrider (repeater pistol)

2 Helstorms

1 Steam Tank


All solid apart from the pistoliers which I can't comment on (never used them)

electors champion
26-01-2011, 22:29
@kimikoPT sorry wasn't clear i meant enemy elite infantry will walk over 40 man empire hordes of standard state troops
units such as chaos warriors with character. vamp grave guard with regen. bloodletters etc

Lord Solar Plexus
27-01-2011, 10:34
I don't think hordes are *the* answer. Bigger units, yes, units that can take a few casualties but something like 50 men in horde just asks for one big spell. 35-40 is about right and there are still good reasons to take smaller, more numerous units of 30 as has been pointed out. Double-charging is obviously much better than charging with the same number of men in one unit.

People often forget that State Troops are still weak and fragile. There's steadfast but that already assumes one's losing all fights...

The AL is certainly the best choice for a general. There are a couple of iffy choices in your list, if I may be so bold: Pistoliers I can't see achieving anything. At all and under the best possible circumstances. You cannot marchblock effectively, you cannot kill anything, and they are too expensive to lose while diverting units. YMMV.

The Steam Tank is too squishy and too expensive IMO. One metal or Ini spell and its gone or useless, a few points of Slaves and its gone, even one hit with something that does multiple wounds...I don't know, I haven't had any success at all with the thing.

Lastly, Helstorms...each of these will need an Engineer, as they are just so unreliable. I'd rather use two mortars and free up more points to spend on goodies.

KimikoPT
27-01-2011, 11:19
Thanks for the feedback Lord Solar! The currently list ATM:

1 AL
Gw, AoMI, VHS

1 Wizard Lord
lvl 4
Rod of Power
The Crimson Amulet

1 Captain
BSB
Full plate
Enchanted Shield
Luckstone

1 Engineer

2x 40 Halberdiers (FC)

30 Swordsmen (FC)

30 Flagellants

2 Cannons

1 Mortar

1 Helstorm Rocket Battery

1 Steam Tank

What worries me are the deploy space the hordes take. Itīs not easy to bring large blocks into combat, true.
About the Stank.... If put to good use, it can win the day. The opponent can take it down? Itīs ok, while heīs trying, heīs not messing with the rest of my army, and they have learned to fear more my warmachines than the tank.

Lord Solar Plexus
27-01-2011, 11:35
That list looks very good, KimikoPT. A cheap and effective General, a more expensive but quite effective Wizard, good blocks with good support.

As to the deployment of infantry, you can set them up in any formation necessary and reform on turns 1 or 2 if you must. Just try not to fight in a forest or river! :)

KimikoPT
27-01-2011, 12:25
Thanks, and iīm going to try it this Saturday! I will share the results later. I miss my Pistoliers, and a Hellblaster to protect machines. Maybe some archers... Letīs see how the Stank does is job.
I may even take out 10 guys from the swordsmen bunker and get another engi, so i can split the WM (the old story of the "all eggs in 1 basket").

Why is so difficult to make a good Empire list? Oh wait, our troops arenīt that great. Maybe in next FAQ we get a ward save, a holy protection from Sigmar :P

KimikoPT
31-01-2011, 15:59
Ok, this list didnīt do great yesterday against HE. Here goes some highlights of the game:

- I get 1st turn, i donīt move, nothing special in magic, i start shooting. In 2 turns, 2 units (LSG, PG) are reduced to almost half of its numbers.

- He sents 2 eagles to get my machines. I shoot 1 with a cannon, the other gets past by, and manages to kill everything! I only have 3 horde blocks, and while i try to get there, he crushes everything. I donīt have anything quick (i missed my pistoliers so much ) to guard them.

- White lions! These guys hit a lot! But the flagellants managed to kill half of them.

-The halberdier horde without the AL gets smacked by the WL in 2 turns. At the same time, the halberdier unit gets in combat with PG. The hatred helps a lot here. Manages to send it running without many casualties.

-Steam tank goes away with a Pit of shades. Bye! Managed to kill some PG with his cannon though.


-The surviving LSG (3 guys) run to hide. Again, nothing fast to get those +400pts hiding behind a house...

- I got Throne, Regrowth, Shield of thorns (destroyed by a HE seal of destruction) and the regen 1. Nothing great achieved here, iīm thinking of trying another lore next game.

Based on this, what iīm thinking of changing in the list:

- Getting another engineer, spliting up the WM, and putting them between units for more protection.

- Pistoliers!

-Taking the 2nd halberdier horde out, too many infantry! And changing the swordsmen bunker for some xbows, and putting the wizard there.

- Exchanging the mortar for a helstorm. The mortar is great, but only because i used it on T3. It kills, but not that many as the rockets. One thing is wounding on a 4+, other is on a 2+.

Thoughts/comments?

Torpedo Vegas
31-01-2011, 16:03
From some recent experience at a big tournament last week, I can safely say that Detachments can still work, even in small (15) strong units, as the flanking and rank denial bonuses really, really help win combats, I would get some detachment support for your mainline CC units.

Karolinen
02-02-2011, 19:28
As I told you before, knight. You lock the enemy whith the horde-troops and attack his flanks whith your knights. Rememer also that HE are = quality troops.
Protect your WM by deploy some archers/huntsmen skirmishers. (the can do free reforms and shoot, meaning the can face the eagle and shoot it.
Use cannons on HE troops whith T4+

KimikoPT
02-02-2011, 22:07
As I told you before, knight. You lock the enemy whith the horde-troops and attack his flanks whith your knights. Rememer also that HE are = quality troops.
Protect your WM by deploy some archers/huntsmen skirmishers. (the can do free reforms and shoot, meaning the can face the eagle and shoot it.
Use cannons on HE troops whith T4+

I understand, but i already have the Tank to do (i hope so) that job! Also, i would need to take a lot off the list to put them there!

Dark Aly
03-02-2011, 09:17
I don't think you can give empire BSB's a shield and so I don't think you can give them an enchanted shield- may be wrong though

KimikoPT
03-02-2011, 10:23
I don't think you can give empire BSB's a shield and so I don't think you can give them an enchanted shield- may be wrong though

discussed a lot here, he can have 50pts of magic gear IF he doesnīt choose a magic banner.

Karolinen
03-02-2011, 17:54
Its ok to use the magic shield but you should go for something that gives you a ward save and a better weapon. Afterall, the BSB is a hero and will be in the front rank leading your troops. To defeat HE you will need extra power.

Karolinen
03-02-2011, 18:04
Skip the 65pts engineer and get 10 archers (skirmishers) and place the between the cannons, in range for their bows. You will get more protection from 10 archers.
And the "master of ballistics" rule are not worth 65pts.

KimikoPT
03-02-2011, 19:46
And the "master of ballistics" rule are not worth 65pts.

Lol? Do you really play empire? Do i have to say how many times a engineer saved my machines? For 65pts?
And AFAIK the best place to put the BSB is on a bunker behind the main units, because if he gets into combat, even with a 4+ ward he will die eventually.

electors champion
03-02-2011, 22:41
kimikoPT's right engineers can be game winners, getting a vital shot off after originally misfiring, and i think he gives hellblaster his bs 4 which is pretty awesome. the archers do virtually nothing damage wise apart from a mild detterant.

KimikoPT
03-02-2011, 22:49
The engi doesnīt give its BS. Heīs only allowed to reroll 1 dice per turn.
I only played 1 time without a engineer... And in 3 turns i managed to fire 1 of 4 machines, because 2 exploded. From that day, the 1st thing i put when iīm starting a list is a engineer!

mR_RoTTenTReaTs
04-02-2011, 00:30
Engineers are the best! However, I no longer take helblasters. Hitting on 6s at long range and 5s at short range is crap. I personally don't see in any rules or faqs where the helblaster suffers from the multishooting penalty, but it got called on me at a tourney. Can anyone here state where people get the idea that the helblaster has the "multiple shots" rule?

KimikoPT
04-02-2011, 08:07
Nope. They are wrong, as "multiple shots" isnīt in the helblaster rules. And yes helblasters are nothing special, but they seem to have a psichological effect on the opponent, who tends to avoid them.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
04-02-2011, 10:43
When I play Empire with lots of war machines I always field a helblaster. Why?

Well firstly, by sticking an engineer in with the crew you grant the war machine BS4. I didn't use to do this but with the new master of ballistics special rule other war machines nearby can still benefit from the engineers presence.

Secondly, I find it performs some vital roles that the other war machines aren't able to perform effectively. For example, say a horde unit or one of a similar number has taken some big hits from mortar or rocket templates. The helblaster is a sure fire way to pick the last of the unit off. As another example, I think it acts as a very good war machine guarder since it is brutal against flyers or fast cav or skirmishers, something that cannons, mortars and helstorms are not.

KimikoPT
04-02-2011, 12:50
How many times do i have to say??? You canīt use engineers BS!!! Only a reroll per turn!!! Itīs on the FAQ!!!

Tower_Of_The_Stars
04-02-2011, 13:08
How many times do i have to say??? You canīt use engineers BS!!! Only a reroll per turn!!! Itīs on the FAQ!!!

A lot of times I'm guessing considering the amount of punctuation used. Out of the interest where is it on the FAQ please?

(Damn, I will have to reconsider the Helblaster volley gun in my list. I still think it could be a viable unit though, particularly for protecting other war machines.)

KimikoPT
04-02-2011, 13:13
A lot of times I'm guessing considering the ridiculous amount of punctuation used.

(Damn, I will have to reconsider the Helblaster volley gun in my list. I still think it could be a viable unit though, particularly for protecting other war machines.)

I said that, because i pointed it in some army list topics. It seems many people believe in that, so iīm only warning, so people donīt get a surprise someday...:)

Walls
05-02-2011, 01:25
People are insane NOT to take detachments. Failed charges hurt so much more, it allows you to take charges way more effectively since you can counter charge and take away their extra pt of CR. Even better you put your detachments on hills and get the extra point on him for charging downhill.

I don't how 8th suddenly invalidated one of the most important parts of an Empire army.

Torpedo Vegas
05-02-2011, 21:33
It didn't. Just the other day, I charged a 20 man swordsmen unit with my 30 man swordsman unit, still lost combat because he had a 10 halberdiers charge into my side. There went my rank bonus.

Reiksmarshal
07-02-2011, 16:24
Always take pistoliers they annoy opponents and with twelve strength s4 ap shots from only 5 men(with outrider/ rp) they will do damage. Drop the steam tank. without its immunity to magic its pretty much useless and the fact that anything can wound it on 6s now. Hellstorms are far better than mortars. If you can accurately judge bounce on a cannonball then you can uase them as effectively as a mortar. hellblasters are invaluable. fire is great against high elves because it just loves all those t3 with bad armour. swordsmen are the best state troops going. they have i4 ws4 and a 6+ ward save. I take blocks of 40 and they never let me down. hand gunners are better than crossbows. Hang back and let your opponent come to you- hammer him with all the s4 ap shots in the world and charge in to finish him off in cc. You do need some knights though. A unit of 8-10 inner circle would be a great counter charge unit.

KimikoPT
07-02-2011, 17:04
The unthinkable happened! 6 pistoliers finished a Hellcannon, and inflicted casualties on a Chaos Warriors unit until they fled the table due to losses! :) I think they made their points on that game!

russellmoo
07-02-2011, 17:53
I think this is a matter of playstyle- with your warmachines you can either-
a) spread them out, a cannon in each corner, and mortars/ hellblaster/ rocketstorm towards the center-

b) group all of your warmachines together-

In option a (you could call it the skaven approach to warmachines)- take just the machines- if they want to go to the far corner of the board to collect less than 100 pts- just let them-

in b (or if you prefer we'll call it the dwarf approach)- take an engineer, and a shooting unit to protect the battery

Reiksmarshal
07-02-2011, 21:10
Having just read the FAQ the hellblaster does indeed no longer benefit from engineers BS. However interestingly enough the rules for his master have ballistics have changed and now allow him to re roll the scatter or artilery dice of ANY war machine. This would appear to me that he can now re roll miss fires and scatter die from the hellstorm and hellblaster and not just cannons and mortars.

KimikoPT
07-02-2011, 21:49
It is correct. I think many people donīt know that, and so they say that engineers are crap. But yesterday against WoC, 1 of my helstorms was scatering from a marauder horde, i used the reroll ability, and 19 marauders ate dust! :)