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Latro_
18-01-2011, 09:27
Quick question and please don't attack me with 'rtfm' as i'm just starting to read the 8th ed book and building a list as i go.

Basically was wondering if i had a 50m base in the front rank (the one thats 2x2 larger infantry bases) say in this case a nurgle herald on palaquin do the models behind him still get supporting attacks even though they are in the 3rd rank.

e.g.

PPHHPP
PPHHPP
PPXXPP

Do the two plague bearers marked with an X still get a supporting attack? I read the supporting attacks section in the rule book and this appears to be the case but just wanted to check.

T10
18-01-2011, 10:02
While it is true that part of the rules for supporting attacks state that the models get to make their supporting attack if "the model in front of them" is in base contact with the enemy, it is (mostly) accepted that the determining factor is the rank. I.e.: models in the second rank get to make supporting attacks. Horde formations and spears both allow for an additional rank of supporting attacks.

-T10

Latro_
18-01-2011, 10:04
But the supporting attacks section as far as i remember mentions nothing about ranks. It simply says the model directly behind a model in b2b with the enemy.

Those plague bearers marked as an X fit that description.

I just read the horde rule, see what you mean that kinda hints at the second rank only supporting but it does not stipulate in the supporting attacks section that its only the second rank so I assume they are making the assumption that most of the time the models are of the same base size in the horde rule?

T10
18-01-2011, 10:05
More discussion here:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281745

-T10

Geep
18-01-2011, 10:05
I agree with what I think T10 is saying- models behind the 50mm base cannot attack unless, for some reason, a second or third rank could give supporting attacks.

I can't think of anywhere this has been clearly covered in a rulebook or FAQ though.

Latro_
18-01-2011, 11:36
hehe above thread is epic, nice to see i'm only just starting to read the book and am picking up on stuff that vet fantasy players are arguing about.

Dont feel swayed either way if i'm honest. When i play i'll see if each opponent agrees it can be done and if not then we wont do it.

T10
18-01-2011, 15:39
Maybe I can sway you. Consider the two options:


a: The model in front of the supporting model must be in base contact with the enemy. The supporting model may be in any rank.

b: The model in front of the supporting model must be in base contact with the enemy. The supporting model must be in a rank that is permitted to make supporting attacks. This typically the second rank for normal 5-wide formation armed with hand weapons, or the second, third and fourth rank for a unit in a horde formation and armed with spears.

I propose that of these two options, the most consistent (or least prone to weird behavior) is the proper one.

Now, both those interpretations work fine as long as the models in the unit have the same base size. However, notice that the horde rule specifically requires that the supporting models must be in the second and third rank ("not just the second"). So let's mix things up with a unit that includes a "big base" model by default. The Bretonnian Grail Reliquae (a 40x60 mm base, or comparable to 6 Battle Pilgrims 2 wide, 3 deep base footprint) is a good example. Assuming a large enough unit, there are two battle pilgrims directly behind the Reliquae. These models in the unit's fourth rank.


a: The two models get to make supporting attacks even though the models next to them do not. However, they lose the ability to make supporting attacks if the unit adopts a horde formation, a formation specifically intended to enable more models to make supporting attacks.

(They lose their supporting attacks because the horde formation specifies supporting attacks only from the second and third ranks)

b: The two models do not get to fight unless the models in the same rank are permitted to make supporting attacks. This is consistent in that increasing the number of "supporting ranks" will eventually enable those two supporting models to fight.

(Except that Battle Pilgrims don't get to use spears, so they'll never actually get there, but that's not the point :))

I submit that option a is proven to be inconsistent and thus wrong.

Synnister
18-01-2011, 15:39
The bolded section on pg 48 is a rule and it is written therefore it is RAW that you have to be in the 2nd rank to make a normal supporting attack. There are 2 conditionals for making a normal supporting attack: 1) Be in the 2nd rank and 2) be behind a model in B2B contact with the enemy.

The bolded section is part of the rule and not fluff or extraneous information it is as much a part of the rule as the non-bolded section is. If you'd like to argue the validity of this statement, thumb through the rulebook and identify the number of rules that are only stated in the bolded section of the rule. You'll find quickly that you cannot disregard the bolded section no matter how fluffy it may sound.

With that understanding this rule inquiry is rather simple to understand. Hope this helps you understand the rulebook better.