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View Full Version : Cant decide on a lore of magic for woc



mrspadge
18-01-2011, 13:36
Well. . . After a couple of games i am noticing that my level 4 mage is not pulling his weight (but my level 2 one is?).

just wondered if anyone had any advice on other lores or if i just need to use it more :-)


very quickly, list is:

level 4 mage (currently on shadow)
level 2 mage (fire)
exalted hero (bsb)
2 units of 40 marauders(gw, mok)
1 unit of warriors (moz)
2 units of 5 puppies
1 unit of 5 horsemen
1 unit of 5 knights.


i have found that the lore of fire is very handy (took out nearly 1k points with it last game) but the lore of shadows has had little effect.

i can take:

level 4 - fire, heavens, shadow, death.

level 2 - fire, death.


original plan was that the level 4 would de-buff units so i could destroy them more easily while the level 2 pings a few models/wounds here and there but i have been finding that it's not that useful. I am considering the lore of heavens but there are only 2 spells that i REALLY want. . . .

Or of course there are the chaos lores :-)


Any ideas?

kaulem
18-01-2011, 13:42
I personnally love Heavens for my WoC and I'm a bit pissed that my lvl 2 can't take it. That being said, all of the Chaos lores are also great.

For the general BRB lores, here is my order of preference:

heavens
death
shadow
fire

BrotherNefarius
18-01-2011, 15:13
A level 4 is a must imho just for the +4 dispel.

For the lore, it mostly depend on what you are facing. Tzeentch is pretty good all around, but i also like Death for character sniping and Soulblight (12" radius version).

Shadow is good too.

Fire and Heavens is kind of meh... I would rather take other lores.

Oberon
18-01-2011, 15:34
With shadows, there's only the pendulum that I never use. Hexes are great as they both hinder the enemy and help our own guys (they get easier to hit and they hit less for example). Hard as the warriors may be, they get much more so after the enemy stat line is full of ones and twos. Pit is more or less the only way to kill a steam tank available for WoC too.

Lore of fire is pretty much s4 flaming attacks, flaming sword and flame cage do something different but it is hard for me to justify taking the lore.

Death has a great hex (soulblight), sniping characters is great, doom&darkness combines nicely with hellcannons/steadfast units. Purple sun is the other way to bring stank down, I think that alone is a good reason to seriously think about choosing death.

Heavens does pretty much the same thing shadow does (makes stuff harder to hit/move slower), direct damage is of course nice. I just think shadows has much better hexes, and the pit is big plus.

EDIT: oh right, our book has its own lores too...

Tzeentch not only grants you few nice spells (treason to bring hordes down, pandaemonium to weaken their spellcasting and break their general-dependant units, gateway to kill the few monsters left in 8ed old world, flickering fire to kill stuff), but also improves the already nice ward saves we now can purchase from the rulebook. I think MoT is the way to go if you can't decide on a rulebook-lore. Besides, the casting values aren't that hard anymore.

Lore of nurgle has a few spells that are still worth it. Curse of the leper has some nice potential. It is basically a hex with considerable casting value (=expensive RIP to get rid of, evenmore so if you don't) and potentially huge payout. Even if you get it through for one turn, -1T can turn some fights (shield-bearing warriors are only S4, -1T means a lot to them) around easily. The signature spell is always great, BSBs usually have only 2 wounds, but their worth has skyrocketed. The other spells have their uses too, I rarely used others in 7ed and never in 8 so can't remember.

I stayed away of lore of slaanesh in 7ed, something might have changed but I can't be bothered to look it up.

Gaargod
18-01-2011, 15:40
I personnally love Heavens for my WoC and I'm a bit pissed that my lvl 2 can't take it. That being said, all of the Chaos lores are also great.

For the general BRB lores, here is my order of preference:

heavens
death
shadow
fire

Really? I would generally put it as (for WoC specifically)
Death
Shadow
Heavens
Fire

Normally I would put shadow over death, but WoC's hardcore wizards don't really fear getting up close and personal, and their stats are already amazing. Still very, very good. Fire obviously doesn't add much, but I find Heavens just doesn't do enough. Comet is nice, Convergence/Curse of Midnight both work well, but otherwise I'm not very impressed.


With shadows, there's only the pendulum that I never use. Hexes are great as they both hinder the enemy and help our own guys (they get easier to hit and they hit less for example). Hard as the warriors may be, they get much more so after the enemy stat line is full of ones and twos. Pit is more or less the only way to kill a steam tank available for WoC too.

Lore of fire is pretty much s4 flaming attacks, flaming sword and flame cage do something different but it is hard for me to justify taking the lore.

Death has a great hex (soulblight), sniping characters is great, doom&darkness combines nicely with hellcannons/steadfast units. Purple sun is the other way to bring stank down, I think that alone is a good reason to seriously think about choosing death.

Heavens does pretty much the same thing shadow does (makes stuff harder to hit/move slower), direct damage is of course nice. I just think shadows has much better hexes, and the pit is big plus.


What Oberon said.

PurpleSun
18-01-2011, 16:33
I just take the Third Eye of Tzeentch and enjoy whatever Lore my opponent is using in addition to the Tzeentch Lore.

tmarichards
18-01-2011, 17:02
Warriors are obviously an army that revolves almost completely around the movement and close combat phases (although they compete in the magic phase, they can't dominate it in the same way as Lizards or Dark Elves, for example). This means that you need to be able to deal with stuff that can outfight you, and also you need an answer to armies that sit back and shoot. Shadow will allow you to turn the tables on armies that can otherwise outfight you, and Heavens can do the same thing- just don't get hung up on the 6th spell- Comet spam will help you out in far more situations. Heavens or Shadow on a Level 4 would be my advice.

Xerkics
18-01-2011, 20:02
I love lore of nurgle. Regen and Ticking debuff is great.

mrspadge
18-01-2011, 20:09
Many thanks everyone!

i think the problem I'm having with shadow is that i am new to infantry armies (used to use ogres or monster heavy armies) so i find prioritizing spells for them quite tricky. . . .

That being said, i have been tempting myself with the lore of tzeentch. . .

I have another game tomorrow, against either vampires or warriors of chaos (2 hellcannons, mage with death, 3 small-ish units of warriors and stuff). I'll try the lore of tzeentch and see how it goes.

Oberon
18-01-2011, 20:21
Some points about using shadows with WoC, hopefully I won't ramble too much and something of value can be found...

Lower T if you are going to hit them with low str attacks (under 5 or something). Bloodcrudling roar/stream of corruption gain a lot of this spell.

Lower Str works pretty much everytime, unless they have very high str (no point in lowering the str of a dragon if it is fighting marauders) as it will give you a better armour save if nothing else. These two hexes pretty much achieve the same goal of you winning the combat: either you wound a lot more, or they wound a lot less. Of course, with both of them you just can't lose :)

Use miasma to drop WS if it allows you to hit 3+ or if it drops his chance of hitting you, same deal with In (HE lose rerolls from ASF if you drop their IN, they will still ASF of course...). Lower BS from shooters if there's nothing else to do (before combat there rarely is). Against shooters miasma works better than the hexes from heavens, as you can drop their shooting by much more than 1 (not for warmachines though). I haven't found much use in lowering movement, as it doesn't affect flee/pursue moves anymore.

Steed of shadows when you need to get somewhere (for for example bloodcrudling roar or to escape or to prepare for a incoming charge). If you are not confident with your sorcs, and you shouldn't (hard as they might be in comparison), this one shouldn't be swapped for miasma. Of course, if you don't get pendulum, this one just might have to go. Miasma is a must.

Pendulum is way too situational and does too little wounds to work, IMO. I'd use pit of shades anyday over this one.

Pit is for destroying warmachines, slow infantry (or fast infantry previously slowed with miasma!!) and monsters. Not forgetting steam tanks!

Mindrazor, when str4-6 just isn't enough. Usually against heavy cavalry/tanks/monsters. Even warhounds get str5 from this one, w000! :)

Don't forget smoke&mirrors. I haven't used it that much, but I still remember the only game it came into use. I had my sorc in a unit of warriors, my opponent blaster every warrior away with Empire and had steam tank next to them->smoke&mirrors to get my sorc lord back to safety in the warrior unit nearby, lv2 sorc took his place and subsequently fled the tank. After that, his altar charged the warriors, after couple rounds of challenge my sorc lord was on 1 wound left->smoke&mirrors to get an exalted BSB to step up and duel in his place. The game ended with all my characters alive, on one wound but still. Damn those war altars and being locked in challenge :/

mrspadge
20-01-2011, 09:52
Well the game i mentioned turned out to be against vampires.

very briefly his list was:
vampire lord
necromancer
2 wight kings
2 units of skeletons
2 units of grave guard
2 varghulfs

i think that was it. . .


My fire mage proved his worth again by knocking a varghulf down to a wound so i could charge it happily with my bsb :-)

i am now sold on the lore of tzeentch for my level 4! Much as he had to try 4 (successful) times to get the gate to infinity he managed to roll the dreaded str 11 against the lords unit. Coupled with having pandemonium running his guys crumbled so quickly it was just mop up when i charged him :-) plus 5 to cast is very useful it seems :-)

Havock
20-01-2011, 15:50
Take two mages, one of which should have Mark of Tzeentch and Third eye.

GenerationTerrorist
21-01-2011, 00:55
How about try a Lvl4 of either Tzeentch or Nurgle, backed up by a Lvl2 with Lore of Death? Third Eye, as mentioned above, is a must-have gift for one of your Sorcerers, too.

theorox
21-01-2011, 09:29
Heavens compliment WoC perfectly. Both of the hexes are great, and the buff makes our troops even deadlier. We usually hit on a 3+, now it's as good as 2+!

The Thunderbolt and Chain Lightning ar not the greatest, but helpful for tackling redirection units. CL in particular is quite good.

Wind Blast is good for...blowing units closer to the Comet. :D And possibly get them out of shooting range. It's also great if you have Fulminating Flame Cage, as you drop the cage first and then blow them away so that the entire unit takes the hits! So if you go with Heaven, keep the Fire guy and give him the spellfamiliar so that he has a better chance of getting the Cage IMO. Or, put the Familiar on the Lord to be reasonably sure to get the spells you want.

The Comet is nice for whittling down many big enemy units. Cast it whenever you can. Kills Warmachines, Cav, anything monstrous, and takes a rank or two off of infantry. A good All-round spell, if a bit unpredictable. :)

Theo

Poseidal
21-01-2011, 10:10
Heavens has served me well so far.

On a level 4, the spells compliment the rest of the army well, from protection against shooting with the signature to placing a comet forcing movement in your favour.

Also, Iceshard Blizzard also works reasonably well with the Hellcannon.

If I have another wizard, I would either take a level 1, who is there to carry a useful magic item and channel or a level 2 Tzeentch with the Eye. Usually, I don't have the points though, and run with a Lv4 and BSB only.

Hashulaman
22-01-2011, 04:42
I have found Tzeentch to serve me the best, really have not worked with the other lores much save Shadow, tried fire and Death and they were ok. Have not tried heavens, slannesh or nurgle. From what I have used Tzeentch is extremly potent. 2D6 hits at 2D6 Strength with a chance to suck an entire unit characters and all into the realm of chaos and on a 10+ to cast if you have a level 4? Yes please. Tzeentch Sorc lord with some of the lovely items that imrpove casting such as blood of tzeentch or Homunculus (tendrils if you take a Daemon prince). You can pretty much negate all but the most potent High Elf Dispelling.

theorox
22-01-2011, 09:46
But then again, Gateway is good...flickering fire is ok...and the rest is dull? :D

Theo

Havock
22-01-2011, 16:23
Treason is good and Pandaemonium is still usefull.

Spell #2 is a contestant for worst spell in the game.

theorox
22-01-2011, 19:41
Treason is good and Pandaemonium is still usefull.

Spell #2 is a contestant for worst spell in the game.

Oh yeah, Treason is in there! It's very good. :)

Pabdaemonium is OK...but...well...really nothing very special.

Another good choice is Nurgle. Charactersniping spell? Check! Protective spell? Check! Anti-armour spells that work against massed infantry too? Check! A great debuff that can kill an entire unit if not dispelled? Check! The last spell isn't bad either. Kills knights, WM's, all kinds of monstrous things...:evilgrin: The only thing missing from the list is some sort of offensive buff. The Lore also synergizes very well with Shadows/Death. :)

Theo

Harwammer
23-01-2011, 21:59
Perhaps I am biased due to the armies I usually face, but I think Pandaemonium may be the best spell in the lore for a few match ups, especially if you are packing any Hell Cannons and/or a Doom Totem. It certainly helps with steadfast too.

Treason is 'great' at cutting down models with great weapons, there is a huge fear factor for Infernal Gateway and Flickering Fire is easy to get off... thats four good spells in the Lore.

The only spell I don't use in the lore is Call to Glory, but that is mainly because I use warriors instead of marauders on foot. Even Baleful Transmogrification has it's uses (vs enemy hounds, fast cav, lone wizards) and the fact BT is 1-diceable vindincates the spell in my eyes.

4 solid spells, 1 situational spell and 1 that doesn't really get used... thats not to shabby a lore (especially as it has low casting values and +1 to cast)!

theorox
24-01-2011, 09:29
Hm...yeah, ok, i can see how it's good. In my eyes Nurgle beats it though! ;)

What about Death? Combines with both Nurgle and Tzeentch...and Shadows. Thye Sniping spells are good. Psun is obviously good. Soulblight is very good. Doom and Darkness is great too. Aspect of the dreadknight is...situational but ok.

Lore of Fire is better than people make it out to be it seems. Steadfast blocks seems to be WoC's biggest problem in 8th. Bur them off with the Cage, or the Arrows, or the Flame Storm. :D

Theo

Morkash
24-01-2011, 09:42
I like the nasty combination of Nurgle and Shadow...Curse of the Leper plus -D3 Toughness is just evil, especially against weedy elves.
Shadow also has the awesome Mindrazor so that the Marauders can use their Ini, Pit is always helpful, as are all the Debuffs, even without Nurgle/Shadow combo.

Harwammer
24-01-2011, 11:31
What about Death? Combines with both Nurgle and Tzeentch...and Shadows.

I think you pretty much nailed it here; I use death as a secondary lore to supplement other casters. If I'm only using a single caster I'll tend to go for Tzeentch (or Shadows to mix it up a little).

Now I use a Hell Cannon I don't feel quite as much need for Nurgle's damage spells (I used to run Tz lvl 4 with +2x Nurgle, or +1x Nurgle and +1x Death sorcerors), so Nurgle sorcerors got dropped/replaced.

PeG
24-01-2011, 11:55
With WoC I always take at least two (sometimes three) casters and one of them usually has lore of death. The main purpose is to kill key enemy characters (for example I really dislike enemy casters with lore of metal....)

For the other casters it is harder to chose. The army book lores are rather good in that most spells currently have rather low casting values. Even gateway can be cast relatively easy by a lvl4 with the appropriate gear (and maybe the gear of a nearby caster). Treason is great for hordes, having an enemy unit take a walk across the entire board is always nice etc.

On the other hand heavens plays to the weaknesses in that it can provide protection against shooting and having a comet coming down now and then keeps people from putting all their warmachines and shooting in a single corner of the play area.

theorox
24-01-2011, 15:00
My favourites on paper is something like:

1: Heavens
2: Nurgle
3: Shadow
4: Tzeentch
5: Death

Or something. It's a close run though, they are all awesome. I don't run Hellcannons, so the Nurgle template spells and the Comet are quite nice to thin down infantry i'd think.

Theo

Stonewyrm
24-01-2011, 17:30
Some things that weren't properly metioned about Lore of Tzeentch:

+1 to Ward. Together with the Rulebook Talismans it makes WoC Sorcs harder to kill than alot of combat Lords. Add the usual 1+AS and WoC players rarely have to worry about their chars.

Access to Disk of Tzeentch:
1) Awsome Model
2) Fast and Manuverable. Great for getting behind enemy lines for spells and/or Bloodcurling Roar. Also good for jumping around to have General's leadership bubble where you need it (and BSB re-rolls!). It also makes them very hard to pin down and almost impossible to charge. Just watch out for anti-flight items, M1 is a pain in the a**.
3) Mounted so adds +1 AS.
4) Has a 50x50mm base but counts as Cavalry. Important for LoSir if you really feel you need it. Is twice as wide as normal Cavalry making it easier to get Ranks if added to a unit.
5) Can be modeled to different heights. My Tzeentch BSB is low to the table reducing his chance of being seen while my Tzeentch Sorc Lord is modeled higher up so he can cast over his own troops.
6) Did I mention that it looks great?

Xerkics
25-01-2011, 00:01
I find death is less than spectacular on woc for killing enemy chars. Dont forget that woc wizard lord leadership is a measly 8. So your not going to be killing any of those pesky ld 10 order generals any time soon. Granted the purple sun and phylactery combo very well so you dont have to be afraid of it scattering on yourself but what are the odds of you getting the spell ?

PeG
25-01-2011, 11:57
A single lvl2 without gear obviously has a 2/6 chance of getting purple sun and the same for D and D. Add a magical item and it is 3/6 for each spell.

Most enemy characters that needs to be killed are heroes and not lords meaning that they will usually not be LD10 and even if they are a single cast of the signature spell still has a good chance of killing a hero. In addition you have several other spells that do the same but not using LD.

antihelten
26-01-2011, 20:48
Actually if you take a lvl 4 as your main sorcerer with death, and a lvl 2 whose purpose is to throw out purple suns, then the lvl 2 has about 97% chance of getting the purple sun, as long as you roll the lvl 4's spells first.