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macattack428
19-01-2011, 03:16
I haven't found the post on warseer yet so here it is. If I missed the forum I apologize.

There is a thread going around Asrai explaining a way to trap a block of troops with a string of skirmishers. Honestly I don't completely understand the logic behind it and I was hoping someone here to explain it. I will make a diagram and try to explain as much as I know.

x.......rrrrrrrrr
..X.....rrrrrrrr
....x...rrrrrrrrr
.....X.rrrrrrrrr
........X

Thats the basic setup. The theory is the block cannot move foward because the Skirmishers block a wheel and if charged the skirmishers form up and thus the block fails the charge. Heres where it gets sketchy.... The person posting this couldn't find the original thread. He assumed the reason the charge is failed was the lack of LoS after reform but that cant be the case as the unit already declared the charge so no longer needs LoS (I think!). Has anyone else heard about this? Is the poster just bananas? Did I just waste five minutes of my life posting this?

senoja
19-01-2011, 03:36
you only need los to declare a charge and i belive the unit has to form up around the first model contacted by the chargers ? regardless of that fact they form up once the chargers are moved so the charge is already considered to have been successful being that the distance rolled was adequate and the skirmishers chose to hold any wheeling required during the charge movement is free so even if the skirmishers formed up out of los the chargers are free to wheel and make contact

ahhh after a quick reread it seems they form up around the center most model in the front rank therefore would shrink up to first model tho as the unit only needs to b within front arc to declare a charge and wheeling is free in charge movement i still see no reason as to why the chargers would b unable to reach after rolling appropriatly

Synnister
19-01-2011, 03:51
you get a 90 degree wheel that doesn't use any of your charge distance therefore even in this grotesque abuse of the spirit of the game you'd still be able to charge. Then you could trounce his unit and hopefully commit to never play that guy again.

Teongpeng
19-01-2011, 05:01
skirmishers formed up to be in base contact with ranked units when charged. I just dont see how the charge could fail in this scenario.

decker_cky
19-01-2011, 06:22
As soon as the charge is declared, the skirmishers tighten up to the center of the front rank. Add a few more X's along the line and the unit gets pulled out of the 90 degree arc from the diagram. It only works if nothing else can charge the skirmishers though.

edit: It's also tougher to pull if you force him to enforce the 1/2" between his models and 1" away from your unit. Be strict if they're doing that.

Dutch_Digger
19-01-2011, 08:49
So if the RnF troops in the picture above would be facing south/down, then the skirmishers tighten up and are suddenly out of LoS ? And the charge fails because of it... weird situation.

senoja
19-01-2011, 11:29
So if the RnF troops in the picture above would be facing south/down, then the skirmishers tighten up and are suddenly out of LoS ? And the charge fails because of it... weird situation.

no because you get a 90 degree wheel bear in mind you can wheel backwards as well as forwards los is not required after the declaration of the charge

Masque
19-01-2011, 12:15
no because you get a 90 degree wheel bear in mind you can wheel backwards as well as forwards los is not required after the declaration of the charge

You definately cannot wheel backwards. The whole point of this situation is that a 90 degree wheel won't make the charge be successful so the charge can't be declared. It really has nothing to do with line of sight.

DeathlessDraich
19-01-2011, 12:45
I haven't found the post on warseer yet so here it is. If I missed the forum I apologize.

There is a thread going around Asrai explaining a way to trap a block of troops with a string of skirmishers. Honestly I don't completely understand the logic behind it and I was hoping someone here to explain it. I will make a diagram and try to explain as much as I know.

x.......rrrrrrrrr
..X.....rrrrrrrr
....x...rrrrrrrrr
.....X.rrrrrrrrr
........X

Thats the basic setup. The theory is the block cannot move foward because the Skirmishers block a wheel and if charged the skirmishers form up and thus the block fails the charge. Heres where it gets sketchy.... The person posting this couldn't find the original thread. He assumed the reason the charge is failed was the lack of LoS after reform but that cant be the case as the unit already declared the charge so no longer needs LoS (I think!). Has anyone else heard about this? Is the poster just bananas? Did I just waste five minutes of my life posting this?


I can't tell from your diagram but a rough scrutiny of what you wrote makes me think that this is what I called

"The Wheeling Arc Trap" -
which I explained in my book Warhammer Tactica in the Common Traps Chapter.

It can still be used in 8th ed but the old 7th ed skirmisher formation made it amazingly deadly especially against the Bret Lance etc.

Seeing the Asrai contributor also used the same terminology - 'Trap' - he probably did get it from my book. :)

T10
19-01-2011, 14:29
Perhaps Macattack428 can put you in contact with the asrai OP. Then you can bask in the glory that is peer recognition.

-T10

Atrahasis
19-01-2011, 15:14
It has nothing to do with DD's book (did you ever get over the gambler's fallacy by the way?).

The tactic was first called "Skirmisher Contraction" : Linky (http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=75186&start=0)

Dutch_Digger
19-01-2011, 15:26
linky no worky

T10
19-01-2011, 15:32
Linky worky fine!

I notice that the Skirmish Contraction ploy brings attention to one flaw in the game (that a unit may Hold as a charge reaction and still move out of reach of the chargers) yet fails to address the following flaw:

If the chargers move too close then the skirmishing unit cannot expand without bringing models within 1 inch of them.

-T10

Atrahasis
19-01-2011, 16:17
True, and an issue that was pointed out in the FAQ submission.